I’m beginning the think the right wingers where just gearing up for the real battle last fall.

Here’s what I don’t want:

I have to buy health insurance (which I don’t have).

weekendclimber @ 1: In a way, this is more life-and-death for them than a single WH election. They fought it just as fiercely in 1994.

Krugman hints at it in his column today — this is how they play when all the chips are on the table.

There are rumors of Democratic majorities in the House and Senate. If that were true, then leaders there would step up and add their voices, perhaps playing the bad cop to Obama’s good cop. Sadly, I think the rumors are not true because Obama has to go it alone, issue after issue. I don’t watch Fox Nooz, but what I do watch seems to have only Republics or Noot spinning falsehoods unchallenged.

There came a point in last fall’s election at which the mood was, “OK, you’ve thrown everything you have at Obama and he’s still standing. Is that all you’ve got?”

On my most optimistic days, my sense is that we are almost to that point in the healthcare debate.

And we will probably have to go through the same process on the climate change part of the energy and climate bill.

And again on the financial reform bill.

And on all of these, we will have to know exactly what our bottom line is.

On healthcare right now, we want single-payer but our bottom line is strong public option.

You’re part of the problem. What happens if you “really” sick? Who’s gonna pay? You got an adavance directive to just pull the plug?

Bingo. Someone’s got to be willing to be the bad cop.

The way I’ve heard it explained many times is you are not going to be forced to do anything.

I’ll pay.

Or pull the plug.

I don’t want any burden and don’t want to place a burden on you.

I heard a few snippets from Obama’s Montana appearance and thought “finally! He’s going out and selling it!”

One line was IIRC “we cannot continue to have Americans held hostage by insurance companies” words to that effect.

“held hostage” great great line. He also pointed out that people WITH INSURANCE get denied care totally on the whim of the ins. cos.

Dosido,

I’ll take care of myself.

Hey Art, there’s a part of what you say that makes sense to me but it’s too risky to ask the entire community to do the same as you. I wonder what would happen if everyone stopped paying premiums to insurance companies as you do.

It’s one of my wild fantasies (I’m not snarking at you btw). I really wonder what would happen if we scrapped insurance altogether.

that’s what I’m saying.

Uh, can I get that in writing (signed in blood)? ;~P

Agree.

Exercise.

Eat good, organic food.

Signed in blood here.

OK. Is it fair to say that you are against reform because you are against any insurance at all. Is that it?

You are blessed to be so healthy, and smart to take good care of yourself. You mentioned that you paid out of pocket for another family member’s care. So you are playing by your own rules and I admire that. However, would it benefit you if all this reform business lowered your costs?

Oh this is for ART 45

Yer a good guy, ART45… Here’s to a long a healthy life. Good luck with that.

Cheers!

“how is his soft-spoken calm going to drown out the noise machine — and define and discredit them the way his campaign was able to do last fall?”

Perhaps that’s where we come in. Again.

You know it was hundreds of thousands of people mobilized during the campaign, making phonecalls and more importantly, knocking on doors. We need at least the same level of grassroots engagement now, showing up at town hall meetings, showing up in district offices, pushing for a single-payer with a strong public option as a fallback.

Don’t look to Obama to lead this. We must look to ourselves.

That’s what I’m afraid of. It’s a battle of attrition right now and the Republican stragedy is to divide and conquer. It’s straight out of the “The Art of War” from Tzu.

YOYO is not what America voted for.

Health care reform is change we voted for.

Hope it all goes well for you ART45, and that you can pay for whatever health services you may need in your lifetime.

I’m currently uninsured. I’d be happy to buy insurance if it were available to me. I’d also happily pay a bit more (in taxes or premiums) to cover people that can’t afford to be healthy. Anything else smells like euthanasia to me. It’s kind of ironic that the “eugenics” smear is used against a public option, when current policy decides that poor people should lack care.

I’m really glad that we’ve got Medicare and Medicaid.

“On healthcare right now, we want single-payer but our bottom line is strong public option”

Then you have nothing.

There is no large cost savings without reform of fee-for-service, emolument of the medical personnel & ownership of the hospitals as the VA has. Kaiser Permamante the largest HMO can’t insure you for less than $500/month, and they have complete control of their costs.

The cost savings come from removal of profit centers, elimination of claims processing, and employment of medical personnel. The revenue comes from the giant pool of taxpayers paying in and sharing risk. The best source of revenue is a large slice of the defense budget.

I hope Obama starts turning this death panel rhetoric around just the way you have here. He did mention someone today who had health insurance until she was dropped for developing cancer and told she had only a year left to live. Sounds like euthanasia to me.

You’ve made some assertions that say VA or British NHS style reform is the only way to contain costs.

Why?

Where do you get your Kaiser number from? What assumptions are used to derive that number?

Well, where are the liberal Democrats in this fight? I thought we’d see them all over the airwaves, at supportive townhalls, but no one seems to have coordinated that. I also thought we’d see people knocking on their congresscritters’ office doors and registering their support of health care reform, but have not seen too much of that.

The problem, I think, is that the people who supported Obama last year believed him. And they support the goals he outlined last year, which he no longer seems to be fighting for. If he’s making backroom deals with PhRMA and Big Health Insurance that perpetuate their profits and monopolies, why should I go fight for that bill? They have the resources to fight for that bill — they don’t need me.

Obama has compromised with himself so much that I fear his supporters feel they’ve been sold out. And we might be right.

At the town hall I was at Monday the eugenics thing was brought up. I couldn’t keep a straight face when the person saying eugenics started talking about planes dumping chemicals on us for mind and population control. There’s some kooky people out there.

its well past time that progressives stop acting like battered wives making excuses for their husbands, and recognize that Obama is not “one of us.”

Instead of worrying about how to deal with insanely stupid wingnuts whom the vast majority of Americans abhor, the focus should be on what to do about Baucus, Ross, Emmanuel, and the other corporate Democrats.

Old habits die hard, and we had eight years to develop the “opposition to republican” habit, and that made sense while we were still in control. But hanging on every word of Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, and Rush Limbaugh is no longer a productive enterprise — it may feel good, but democrats are in charge now and that is where our attention needs to be focussed. We didn’t need accusations of “death panels” and “socialism” for Baucus and Obama to sell us out to PhARMA, AHA, and AHIP, and those betrayals were only possible because we weren’t paying attention.

I’ve been talking with neighbors, going to meetings… countering lies whenever I come across them.

Obama hasn’t done many of the things we elected him to do. I call that out and try to ask him to do right on those issues (rendition, secrecy, FISA, bail out transparency, etc).

On Health Care Reform he wants to do what we elected him to do. I’m supporting that.

There are a lot of people like me doing the same.

“…no one seems to have coordinated that…”

The Democratic party seems to have a real problem getting everyone on the same page. With the advent of the “World Wide Intertoobz-Electric Box Machines”, it should (in theory) be easier (and cheaper) than ever before to effectively coalesce and organize around important issues.

Though the wingnuts are clearly obstructive and/or straight-up insane, they have a remarkable propensity for corralling their troops and creating all kinds of havoc, minority status notwithstanding. Those of us who live in the world of the sane could take a lesson or two from them.

“…planes dumping chemicals on us…”

I always thought it was black helicopters. Am I misinformed? Shit.

I thought we’d see them all over the airwaves, at supportive townhalls, but no one seems to have coordinated that

Of course not! Everyone’s too busy holding Obama’s feet to the fire.

Coordinating on a mass scale is the key to every issue, isn’t it? And it’s a fine art that needs to learned, tested, and adjusted for each new issue and each individual moment in time.

Or perhaps we could continue to endlessly convince each other that single-payer is the best system, which we all already know anyway?

Holding feet to fire and preaching to the choir are much easier though than coordinating people across the country and door-to-door, so perhaps I’m asking too much.

Please explain how Obama’s life and professional history, and how he’s pissed off most of BigMoney so far as President, would mean he’s a corporate stooge.

Is your opinion based on more of that in-depth data analysis you did which concluded there was no way President Barack Hussein Obama could be elected?

I strongly disagree with this worldview.

If Obama is such a sellout, why is he still out there arguing for a public option?

Why is he even pursuing healthcare legislation AT ALL?

Really… would he pay any political price at all if he’d just said, “There’s too much going on with the economy, Afghanistan, etc. … maybe we’ll look at it next year”? Certainly not from the Villagers, he wouldn’t.

But he’s out there anyway. But he’s not left enough or pure enough for you, so you’d rather see him fail.

Okay, fine… get out of the way, we’ll try to get something good done without your help. ;-)

I’m was a Kaiser member. I paid the bill myself every month.

Want to see my latest quote from Kaiser? $500/month for an HSA plan. My last HMO plan was $750/month with a $30 copay.

http://agonist.org/synoia/2008…..ce#comment

Here’s an analysis of Wellpoint’s annual report, with assumptions:

Wellpoint 2007 %
Revenues $ Millions
Premium Income $55,865.00
Adminstrative Fees $3,674.60
Other Revenue $582.40
Total Operating Income $60,122.00
Net Investment Income $1,001.10
Net Gains on Investments $11.20
Total Revenues $61,134.30

Expenses
Benefit Expenses ($46,036.10) 82%
Selling General & Admin
Selling ($1,716.80) 3%
General and Admin ($6,984.70) 13%
Total SG&A ($8,701.50) 16%
Cost of Drugs ($400.20)
Interest Expense ($447.90)
Amortization of Tangable Assets ($290.70)
Total Expenses ($55,876.40)

Income before tax $5,257.90 9%
Income Tax Expense $1,912.50
Net Income $3,345.40

Single Payer
Single Payer Cost of Admin ($1,117.53) 2%
Savings as Single Payer $13,959.40 25%
Doctor’s Cost of Admin due to non single payer $6,983.13 12%
Total Savings as Single payer $19,825.00 35%

Assumptions
Average Premium/Family/Year $8,000.00
Number of Family Members 4
Number of Members – Wellpoint 27932500
Number of Patients/Doctor 1200
Number of Admin People employed by Doctor 3
Cost/Admin Person $100,000
Admin Cost Per Doctor $300,000
Doctors personal Income $400,000
Number of Doctors 23,277

You want the spreadsheet, send me email: dh at synoia dot com

This is why Obama is in the White House:

One came from Randy Rathie, who called himself “a proud NRA member,” referring to the National Rifle Association, and said he got most of his news from cable TV.
“You can’t tell us how you’re going to pay for this,” Rathie said of Obama’s health care overhaul. “The only way you’re going to get that money is raise our taxes.”
“You are absolutely right,” Obama said. “I can’t cover another 46 million people for free. I can’t do that. We’re going to have to find money from somewhere.”
He noted a congressional estimate that legislation being considered in the Senate could cost $800 billion to $900 billion over 10 years.
Obama has proposed higher taxes for families earning more than $250,000 a year. He said there were also other ways to find money, including streamlining the system and eliminating what he said were subsidies to insurance companies.
“But your point is well-taken,” Obama said. “I appreciate your question and the respectful way you asked it.”
Later, Rathie told CNN he was “well-impressed” with how Obama handled his question. “Now he’s given me his word, personally, that he’s not going to raise my taxes,” Rathie said, but at the same time, “they’re trying to put in a program that they don’t even understand.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama

It was not about the Economy tanking. Obama was the adult amongst the children. Exact same thing is happening now. I heard time and time again from “independents” I know that this is the dynamic that allowed them to feel comfortable for voting for Obama and Dems in general. I say we should be stoking the wingnuts more. Let the BigMedia feeding frenzy on the nutjobs continue. More please, provided there’s security. It’s helping us long term.

Get real, ART45. There are accidents and diseases that happen every day to the youngest, strongest, and healthiest of people. One alternative to insurance is health co-opts, where a group of people agree to equally share all of their health care expenses. I don’t know much about these, but do know they exist.

Sure… but then again, I own about 5-10 shares of UnitedHealthcare. So if reform doesn’t pass, I might earn 20 bucks!

54 years old.
22 miles a week runner.
30-year organic vegetarian health food nut.
Mediator.
Cool and groovy as all shit.
Then out of the blue, stage IV cancer.
Several hundred thousand dollars later, I’m healthy again.
But without insurance coverage? I’d be financially dead, maybe physically dead.
(Post-cancer, BTW, we are paying more for insurance than our mortgage.)

I admire your strength of self, but we all need national coverage.

Here the kaiser number for coverage agiain, the linky was broken

http://agonist.org/synoia/2008….._insurance

Video of the exchange:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..60055.html

F-in fantastic. Textbook example of how to handle all the zaniness. Brilliant response by President Obama, and of course exactly as forceful, clear, and strong as he’s been throughout this entire “debate.”

that analogy is very apt, though I often substitute the gender neutral ’spouse.’

bonkers and swopa are merely exemplifying the denial phase, and human nature is such that is very difficult for unwelcome realities to break through, especially if the subjects are able to willfully avoid inconvenient facts.

basically, the bearer of such facts will be attacked, the ‘kill the messenger’ method of argumentation.

good points though – more and more folks here are coming to those realizations – with the president helping out with his actions almost everyday.

The wingnut who asked the question is probably still dizzy from the answer he got. He’s probably saying,”Yeah but, Hunh?” right about now…

Do you realize how many times I was told that exact same thing during the Prez primaries and general election last year? Probably about the same amount of times you leave a comment in the realm of “Obama is a Corporate sell-out rube” each and every day here, which is to say many, many times.

Apparently, I was in denial then too about how America would never elect a melanin-enhanced man as President.

I’m still waiting for some of the “Obama Suckz” brigade to let me know about some their vast experiences they have with winning elections and legislative battles even on a local level, since they seem to always know exactly what massive losers like Obama should be doing instead.

Please let us know when you have your new political Party set up, or the next mass protest movement you’ve set up so we can sign up! We’re waiting. . . . .

Your figures say Wellpoint covers 4 people for at an average (mean?) premium of $8,000 per year. $2000 per person annually, $167 per month.

So either Kaiser is better coverage, you’re higher risk or Kaiser has costs that are triple Wellpoints.

none of the data you provided seems to say VA or NHS type systems are needed to control costs.

Fool the American public once, shame on you. Fool them twice, shame on them. Now that the American Public is getting to know Obama through his policies and as he says, judge me by my associates, the through the Czars Americans will not be as able to be fooled again.
Obama will not kill grandma but he would trade her for leverage on some part of a policy he likes in a New York minute.
Not everyone in the country knows and reacts to Chicago style politics.

My friend, who explained it to you? Are you sure you believe them? Was his last name Madoff? Did you show it to your attorney? I know often it is hard to see it because we all under the spell of a confirmation bias (I would recommend a course on Art of Critical Decision Making http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/Co…..x?cid=5932 )

You must be able to see that any public health care plan, existing in other countries or any future conceivable plan, to survive must be rationed or have a very limited scope or lower quality services available. How else administrators of any public plan would address a third party payer problem?

Now, I know you don’t mind Obama making these decisions for us, but how about a president after him? It could be Jeb Bush, you know. Isn’t it what the Constitution protects us against, the big government, the mob or democratic majority?

Insurance companies are rationing care now, and making decisions on what treatments they will cover.

Yes, perhaps but it is not in my insurance policy. I can get some justice with them. How can I get justice with government commission that concludes that people with certain disease should have pain pills instead of expensive surgery?

what government commission is that?

By the way, insurance companies ration care for the same “third party payer problem” reasons. That is what happens when you remove patient’s responsibility for medical cost decisions with low deductible plans. Even Chinese V. Premier said recently at the U.S Chinese business forum in Washington DC: “There is no free lunch… learn from history” Who is going to fund the deficit, Russians?

I know free-for-all sound good, but it is never free. Russian Constitution, for example, guarantees health care to all. I have been in their hospitals – sad case :( Basic things are not available, services are very limited. In the old days, only party bosses got the latest care and private rooms. The rest of us had to take aspirin. Can you please spare me from this experience again? I am very happy with my family (3 of us) HSA – $489/mo.

There are ways to realistically decrease cost of coverage and resolve problem with uninsurable. The way to limit Medicare expenses for example is to reform the coverage method when people have more responsibility for medical decisions. This way our children are not obligated to pay for our unlimited desire to use all available medical services regardless of cost and effectiveness, but if I want to sell my house and spend their inheritance on one more month of seeing sunrises, it should be up to me, right?

Similar to one in Canada and UK, but I must agree, there is really no plan yet finalized to discuss in real terms. Who do you think will control cost of the public plan?

You agree that health services are limited resource, right?

That is what happens when you remove patient’s responsibility for medical cost decisions with low deductible plans.

I’m sorry, I don’t follow.

Familiarize yourself with so called “third party payer problem”. I am not against reform, not at all. But let’s not repeat errors that were made before us.

P.S. How do you put my comments in your replies. I am new to this blogging.

P.S. How do you put my comments in your replies. I am new to this blogging.

Cut and paste, then highlight and hit the little quote button in the comment toolbar.

Actually, they are transformers, morphing from black helicopters, to planes, to many-legged jack-booted mobile soylent green vats sucking up old ladies taking longer than the stipulated time to cross the street. Damn librul defense contractors!

Cut and paste, then highlight and hit the little quote button in the comment toolbar

Thanks!

Obama’s had since January as president (and he could have laid the groundwork even earlier) to build his case with the public for what he wanted to do and how he wanted to do it. He apparently chose to be “above the fray” and let Congressional committees try to work out what he wanted, what the public wanted, what they could accomplish (without the full weight of the presidency assisting them in getting the votes). Instead, Obama worked behind the scenes very, very closely with…Baucus. Blue Dogs. Wooed Republicans. Huh? Stiff armed single payer advocates. And the progressive caucus.

When LBJ wanted Medicare, he told the Congress what he wanted, he told the public what he wanted and what it would do for them. He held Congress to his plan. It passed.

Clarity would have helped. When I attended my OFA meeting, the major question was: What is Obama’s plan? What is the public option? The leaders did not know, could not tell us. People were frustrated.

Obama could decide what he wants, but I fear he does not want to own up to what he actually wants. I fear he wants to make sure the Big Insurance Parasites (BIP) get to keep high levels of profitability, only now with government subsidies to help them do that and customers mandated to purchase their insurance. There appear to be few cost controls built it, but Obama touts voluntary BIP agreements to lower the rate of increases.

I fear he did not believe, as he said in one debate, that health CARE is right.

I also fear he wants to be able to blame Congress, specifically Congressional Dems, if the plan he wants turns out to alienate the public and cost them a lot more than they expected.

There’s still time for leadership on a plan which will benefit the public, the nation, businesses: Single payer Medicare for All…with a robust private option.

Obama can declare the negotiations with the Repubs over, as they will not in any way acquiesce to a plan good for the people. Then, he says that while the BIPs will be “disrupted” a bit, for the good of the nation he now stands four square for Medicare for All.

People know what Medicare is, they know it works, they know people who use it, some can’t wait to get to Medicare age to be able to choose their doctors at long last. Everyone who has withholding is already signed up for Medicare, so little time will be needed to make the switch. Win, win.

Canadians have found that the ability to vote the politicians out if they don’t respond to the public’s needs and recommendations is rather effective on a macro level. Even the threat of not voting for some pol.

People know what Medicare is, they know it works, they know people who use it, some can’t wait to get to Medicare age to be able to choose their doctors at long last. Everyone who has withholding is already signed up for Medicare, so little time will be needed to make the switch. Win, win.

We just need to make sure it is sustainable without unfunded liabilities and rationing, right?