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	<title>Comments on: Town Hall Protests: Full of Sound and Fury; Signifying Nothing About Health Care</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/</link>
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		<title>By: TexasReader</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956183</link>
		<dc:creator>TexasReader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956183</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Get a pdf copy of the Waxman amendment of HR 3200 - that is the version that his committee worked off of to draft amendments. The other two House committees, Ways and Means and Energy and Labor had more amendments and they are not contained in the E &amp; C amendments.  Then look for treatments in the E &amp; C bill, it is silent on all diseases except for prostate cancer screening, colo-rectal screening, and diabetes screening in the Medicare Section.  All other decisions of what will qualify and how treatments will be administered is left up to a Health Benefits Committee or other committee. If either a Democrat or Republican tells you they have read the bill they are a liar. There is not a complete copy of the bill ready yet and there will not be one until House Rules compiles one.  If you don’t believe me call the Energy and Commerce Committee and ask them about this. I have done this three times in the last week.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Axelrod’s letter are concepts that he believes should or might be in the bill and his myths are things that could be in the final bill but are not clear at this point.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Call the House Energy and Commerce Committee and ask them for a complete, up to date copy of the bill.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Do your homework. Trust no talking heads. Decide for yourself.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get a pdf copy of the Waxman amendment of HR 3200 &#8211; that is the version that his committee worked off of to draft amendments. The other two House committees, Ways and Means and Energy and Labor had more amendments and they are not contained in the E &amp; C amendments.  Then look for treatments in the E &amp; C bill, it is silent on all diseases except for prostate cancer screening, colo-rectal screening, and diabetes screening in the Medicare Section.  All other decisions of what will qualify and how treatments will be administered is left up to a Health Benefits Committee or other committee. If either a Democrat or Republican tells you they have read the bill they are a liar. There is not a complete copy of the bill ready yet and there will not be one until House Rules compiles one.  If you don’t believe me call the Energy and Commerce Committee and ask them about this. I have done this three times in the last week.</p>
<p>Axelrod’s letter are concepts that he believes should or might be in the bill and his myths are things that could be in the final bill but are not clear at this point.</p>
<p>Call the House Energy and Commerce Committee and ask them for a complete, up to date copy of the bill.</p>
<p>Do your homework. Trust no talking heads. Decide for yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: MarilynSanAntone</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956178</link>
		<dc:creator>MarilynSanAntone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956178</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;And the Constitution couldn’t get ratified by them either.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the Constitution couldn’t get ratified by them either.</p>
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		<title>By: Indie</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956174</link>
		<dc:creator>Indie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956174</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Single payer health insurance is at the CENTER of the debate over the how much scope and power we will cede to a centralized federal government.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The vast majority of citizens in this country(80%)rate their current health care and insurance as good or excellent. They want to keep their plans. They want to see costs lowered and coverage expanded to cover the uninsured and protect those with pre-existing condition, but they do NOT want their current coverage to change. They do NOT want a single payer system. They do not want a ‘public option’ that is a transition, to a single payer, government run, government administered program.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Why? The vast majority of citizens do not trust the government. It is ingrained into our national character. They do not believe that the federal government is the deus ex machina that will help them to overcome seemingly insolvable difficulties. Agree or disagree, first and foremost, they believe in God and themselves. They look to God, themselves and their families and neighborhood communities BEFORE they seek the aid of the government.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;No one will disagree that those who speak out against a single payer solution to health insurance reform willingly take advantage of roads, police and fire departments, parks, schools and a host of community services. These are clearly institutions that ‘promote the general welfare.’ But there us a fine line between ‘promote’ and ‘provide.’&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Ben Franklin famously said, “They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Be it Joe the Plumber or Katy Abrams, progressives miss the point. Progressives embrace the centralized power of the federal government and seek to strengthen it to achieve what they believe to be the ‘common good’, to protect minority groups, eradicate social injustice by expanding the size and scope of the federal government. “We the people” BEFORE the individual. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But progressives forget that the INDIVIDUAL IS THE LARGEST MINORITY. They cannot be so conveniently defined and demonized. Stupid, racist, political terrorists, greedy, sell-outs, tools, stooges, and (gasp!)activists…Are you serious?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Citizens like Katy Abrams and Joe the Plumber have a right to speak, to organize and assemble in protest, no matter how much progressive may disagree with them. These citizens value individual liberty ABOVE collective fairness.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It is that simple. Single payer, government administered and government subsidized “Medicare for All” is a trade on individual liberty that the majority of Americans are not willing to make.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Single payer health insurance is at the CENTER of the debate over the how much scope and power we will cede to a centralized federal government.</p>
<p>The vast majority of citizens in this country(80%)rate their current health care and insurance as good or excellent. They want to keep their plans. They want to see costs lowered and coverage expanded to cover the uninsured and protect those with pre-existing condition, but they do NOT want their current coverage to change. They do NOT want a single payer system. They do not want a ‘public option’ that is a transition, to a single payer, government run, government administered program.</p>
<p>Why? The vast majority of citizens do not trust the government. It is ingrained into our national character. They do not believe that the federal government is the deus ex machina that will help them to overcome seemingly insolvable difficulties. Agree or disagree, first and foremost, they believe in God and themselves. They look to God, themselves and their families and neighborhood communities BEFORE they seek the aid of the government.</p>
<p>No one will disagree that those who speak out against a single payer solution to health insurance reform willingly take advantage of roads, police and fire departments, parks, schools and a host of community services. These are clearly institutions that ‘promote the general welfare.’ But there us a fine line between ‘promote’ and ‘provide.’</p>
<p>Ben Franklin famously said, “They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.”</p>
<p>Be it Joe the Plumber or Katy Abrams, progressives miss the point. Progressives embrace the centralized power of the federal government and seek to strengthen it to achieve what they believe to be the ‘common good’, to protect minority groups, eradicate social injustice by expanding the size and scope of the federal government. “We the people” BEFORE the individual. </p>
<p>But progressives forget that the INDIVIDUAL IS THE LARGEST MINORITY. They cannot be so conveniently defined and demonized. Stupid, racist, political terrorists, greedy, sell-outs, tools, stooges, and (gasp!)activists…Are you serious?</p>
<p>Citizens like Katy Abrams and Joe the Plumber have a right to speak, to organize and assemble in protest, no matter how much progressive may disagree with them. These citizens value individual liberty ABOVE collective fairness.</p>
<p>It is that simple. Single payer, government administered and government subsidized “Medicare for All” is a trade on individual liberty that the majority of Americans are not willing to make.</p>
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		<title>By: sTiVo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956169</link>
		<dc:creator>sTiVo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956169</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, it appears I have to amend my remarks.  Apparently Katy Abram is not what she tried to pass herself off as.  She’s an organizer and has been since 2006 &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/13/766517/-Katy-Abram-is-a-9-12-Organizer-%28Updated%29&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;according to this post on Daily Kos.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it appears I have to amend my remarks.  Apparently Katy Abram is not what she tried to pass herself off as.  She’s an organizer and has been since 2006 <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/13/766517/-Katy-Abram-is-a-9-12-Organizer-%28Updated%29" rel="nofollow">according to this post on Daily Kos.</a></p>
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		<title>By: JamesJoyce</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956153</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesJoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956153</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Oh BTW as a result of corporate exempt tax status issued by the IRS to so many health  related corporations, unknown by Americans, we the American people have subsidized the health services for decades?????????   Healthcare has already been socialized for decades by virtue of its pervasive tax exempt corporate status?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So lets have some discussion about the exempt tax status of corporations in healthcare determined and issued by the IRS.  Insurance reform requires corporate tax reform in the health services!!!!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh BTW as a result of corporate exempt tax status issued by the IRS to so many health  related corporations, unknown by Americans, we the American people have subsidized the health services for decades?????????   Healthcare has already been socialized for decades by virtue of its pervasive tax exempt corporate status?</p>
<p>So lets have some discussion about the exempt tax status of corporations in healthcare determined and issued by the IRS.  Insurance reform requires corporate tax reform in the health services!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: JamesJoyce</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956128</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesJoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 11:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956128</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Why not ask a question concerning corporate “tax exempt/public charity status”  enjoyed by Kaiser,  BCBS,  and many “”tax exempt””  corporations within the health services?  SO how can a insurer like BCBS deny coverage and services under the color of law and be considered a public charity, with corporate tax exempt status?  This is a racket enabled by state’s rights in this matter sure as state’s rights was the battle cry for those seeking to continue  slavery for self interests and economic benefit at the expense of life and liberty.   “Leveraged Corporate Servitude,” under the color of law is slavery and is the enemy from within!   Corporate identity and corporate control of government was never mentioned at Gettysburg, during Lincoln’s address.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not ask a question concerning corporate “tax exempt/public charity status”  enjoyed by Kaiser,  BCBS,  and many “”tax exempt””  corporations within the health services?  SO how can a insurer like BCBS deny coverage and services under the color of law and be considered a public charity, with corporate tax exempt status?  This is a racket enabled by state’s rights in this matter sure as state’s rights was the battle cry for those seeking to continue  slavery for self interests and economic benefit at the expense of life and liberty.   “Leveraged Corporate Servitude,” under the color of law is slavery and is the enemy from within!   Corporate identity and corporate control of government was never mentioned at Gettysburg, during Lincoln’s address.</p>
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		<title>By: bobh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956102</link>
		<dc:creator>bobh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956102</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Like Roosevelt, Obama is being criticized for dismantling our capitalist system by the likes of this lady.  But all either did was to save our capitalist system.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like Roosevelt, Obama is being criticized for dismantling our capitalist system by the likes of this lady.  But all either did was to save our capitalist system.</p>
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		<title>By: sTiVo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956095</link>
		<dc:creator>sTiVo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 08:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956095</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I think “Katy, the bag of rocks” is a more suitable nom de plume.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Oh for God’s sake.  Is it really impossible for people to avoid the temptation of piling on the confused people who get sucked in by this propaganda, of posting some “clever” bon mot showing how much smarter you are than they?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In my opinion, until we find a way to stop getting our ass kicked by this kind of operation, we should cool it with offhand remarks about how smart we are and how dumb they are.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Limit the scorn to the leaders of this “movement”, leave the followers alone.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The &lt;a href=&quot;http://dailyhowler.com/dh081309.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Daily Howler&lt;/a&gt; was all over this yesterday.  Read him, the man is making sense.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;For what it’s worth, people like Abram said similar things about the Clinton health plan—and President Clinton was white. By the way: Do we really want to assume that these concerns make no sense, just because they come from someone who isn’t politically sophisticated? We seem to recall a very sophisticated person saying, on the Maddow Show, that we are currently going through “the biggest heist in monetary history.” That person was Naomi Klein—and Rachel never had her back. (Bad for corporate ownership?) If we’re undergoing the biggest such heist, are you sure that Abram shouldn’t be concerned? By the way: Why hasn’t Rachel ever asked Klein to explain what she meant?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Is it possible that Maddow is a self-dealing (future) millionaire ass? By way of contrast, is it possible that Abram somehow smells a real problem? That we’re too dumb—too narcotized by stories about Iraqi baseball and John Ensign’s sex romps—to be able to smell it ourselves?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;By the way: We’ve never seen Klein ridicule less-sophisticated working-class people. Could it be because she’s too smart?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote>
<p>I think “Katy, the bag of rocks” is a more suitable nom de plume.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Oh for God’s sake.  Is it really impossible for people to avoid the temptation of piling on the confused people who get sucked in by this propaganda, of posting some “clever” bon mot showing how much smarter you are than they?</p>
<p>In my opinion, until we find a way to stop getting our ass kicked by this kind of operation, we should cool it with offhand remarks about how smart we are and how dumb they are.</p>
<p>Limit the scorn to the leaders of this “movement”, leave the followers alone.</p>
<p>The <a href="http://dailyhowler.com/dh081309.shtml" rel="nofollow">Daily Howler</a> was all over this yesterday.  Read him, the man is making sense.</p>
<blockquote><p>For what it’s worth, people like Abram said similar things about the Clinton health plan—and President Clinton was white. By the way: Do we really want to assume that these concerns make no sense, just because they come from someone who isn’t politically sophisticated? We seem to recall a very sophisticated person saying, on the Maddow Show, that we are currently going through “the biggest heist in monetary history.” That person was Naomi Klein—and Rachel never had her back. (Bad for corporate ownership?) If we’re undergoing the biggest such heist, are you sure that Abram shouldn’t be concerned? By the way: Why hasn’t Rachel ever asked Klein to explain what she meant?</p>
<p>Is it possible that Maddow is a self-dealing (future) millionaire ass? By way of contrast, is it possible that Abram somehow smells a real problem? That we’re too dumb—too narcotized by stories about Iraqi baseball and John Ensign’s sex romps—to be able to smell it ourselves?</p>
<p>By the way: We’ve never seen Klein ridicule less-sophisticated working-class people. Could it be because she’s too smart?</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: sTiVo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956094</link>
		<dc:creator>sTiVo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 08:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956094</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think “Katy, the bag of rocks” is a more suitable nom de plume.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think “Katy, the bag of rocks” is a more suitable nom de plume.</p>
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		<title>By: jacqrat</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956040</link>
		<dc:creator>jacqrat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 06:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/13/town-hall-protests-full-of-sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing-about-health-care/#comment-1956040</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think “Katy, the bag of rocks” is a more suitable nom de plume.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think “Katy, the bag of rocks” is a more suitable nom de plume.</p>
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