Welcome to FDL Movie Night. Please stay on topic, which tonight is the movie Two Spirit, and the surrounding discussions of gender, tradition, acceptance, hate crime legislation, LGBT youth and the struggles they face, along with the struggles of adults in the community; as society becomes more accepting in some areas, with that acceptance and visibility comes a backlash from the more rigid side.

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Cross talk is fine as long as it’s on topic please! And regretfully, I tpye horrbly. But I ma gettign better, really.

Whew! Thank you Lydia and Cathy for joining us! Lydia, how did you first learn about Fred/FC?

Cathy there, thank you so much for having us and letting FDL folks know about this film and Fred’s story

Lydia, Cathy, Welcome to the Lake.

The news of Fred’s death shocked people in the town of Cortez, Colorado–and I learned about what was happening in the aftermath of the murder through friends who were involved in raising awareness about the case.

Cathy, what can we do to help move the Matthew Shepard bill through without the poison pill of death penalty attached?

His mom seems so amazing and wonderful, so loving, what a glorious example of motherhood…

How long were you there filming and how long did the film take to make?

first, we can all educate ourselves about hate crimes – and lobby our representatives for hate crimes legislation. but IMHO that is not enough – legislation is only part of the solution – there needs to be much more education about the impact of bullying in schools, bias in the workplace, etc etc

as for the death penalty, that is absoutely a poison pill and should be described as such when communicating with anyone

what is interesting is that matt shepard himself did in fact think the dealt penalty was appropriate in some cases, something it took his parents a long time to talk about

Fred’s mother Paula is really extraordinary. She wanted to do everything she could to give him the largest life possible, and lost him in such a tragic way. For LGBT kids who experience parental and family rejection, she serves as an example of what it would be like to be loved–not in spite of who you are, but because of the totality of who you are.

We’ve worked with her from research through shooting and post-production for about five years now.

I hope this film gets Hate Crimes more publicity. I want the GOP to start defending the hateful words they say. I want them confronted with pictures and angry family members. Not crying ones Rush and Glen Beck would enjoy that Angry ones lets see how tough the hate mongers are in front of real people.

Pass the bill with the death penalty Dems we know probably won’t use the Death Penalty and a Republican President use the Death Penalty on his Base not a chance.

Were Fred’s brothers involved in the filming, ro did they provide backgroudn information? Also really thank YOU so much for making this amazing film, the historial and cultural details, the syncretic links to the two spirit people and the mattechines of ye olde tymes and the nascent civil rights movement surrounding Harry Hay was awesome.

I would like to share the story of the day I met Paula – it says a lot about her. there was a group of activists and local folks and we convened at the home of one of them, meeting Paula in the living room sitting in a circle. after introducing ourselves, she asked us a simple question: why are you here? i think it was particularly directed at the gal from Denver from the antiviolence project and me – I came form New York (I may as well have come from Mars from teh look on her face when I said that). instead of activist-speak, we found ourselves responding to paula in a very personal way – I talked about being on the ground when other members of the community were targeted and how this simply must stop hapening to lgbt youth. we all shared personal experiences of bullying, bias and discrimination – and she understood and trusted us. we got to work on a public statement from her and how each of us could play a role in supporting her – it was an amazing and moving moment

I also loved how you turned the idea of “traditional values” on its head, because here are traditions and value that went back long before Europeans ca,e to this continent

In fact call Jeff Sessions bluff there is no way he wants people in his district to know that he put the death Penalty in the Hate Crimes bill he will withdraw it. We just need to raise the awareness of the voters in his district about his stance.

That is so beautiful and truly was activism is–speaking directly, heart to heart, soul to soul and acting on it.

Only White Christians count as real people to the GOP the rest of us are ghosts:)

Fred’s brothers have been very supportive of the film, but were too shy to go on camera. We worked closely with friends and family to tell the story of Fred’s brief life, and to link his story as a Navajo two-spirit person to the rich history of gender and sexuality in many of the tribes of North America. It’s important that we look to these traditions for inspiration, but not to appropriate Native traditions out of context. That’s why Two Spirits references the European tradition of the Mattachine–to encourage people to explore their own traditions and to consicously create new ritual and expression that is humane and that balances the masculine and feminine in ways that benefit the world.

I went ot summer school at a local community college a couple years ago and in my psyche class was a kid, 16 yrs old, who identified as Cleo. Cleo confided in that he (he was stil Iding as “he” despite the name change) had moved to LA from a small ton by Bakersfield because the Latino culture there couldnt accept his style of dress, mannerism or behavior. His only option was to leave home, come to Hollywood and live at a local yout center where they helped enroll in high school and accelerated learning during the summer. He was one of the lucky ones.

another moving story about Paula – she has, as much as possible, do some traveling and speaking (mostly right after fred’s murder and the year following) – she went to LA for glaad (where she insisted on taking a daytrip to Disneyland), Denver and Washington DC to speak at a GenderPac conference. at a DC reception during that weekend she got a bit overwhelmed so my partner and I took her downstairs to chill out. she said she was having a lot of feelings – Fred had always promised her he would take her to DC, LA etc etc and she realized that in fact, he was doing just that. my hope is that this film will give us a chance to allow paula to tell her story to more people, in more cities where fred wanted to take her…

And you did that so beautifully. It is a wonderous tapestry of the expression of the Self.

I was so aware of Fred’s spirituality and his presence here via the afterlife. That energy he had, his magic is still working and to me at least it is a very real thing..if we choose to acknowledge it.

Wesley Thomas, the foremost expert on the Navajo third gender, states in the film that in the end “we’re all the five fingered people.” I love that. The truth about the human family is that many/most are born hardwired as female or male, and also that there are a number of people born to express identity along that spectrum as well.

Lydia, I know you have shown the films in a number of festivals, what are your plans? are you looking for distribution? Academy consideration? Schools and educatin screeings?

Thank you Lydia for telling this story. How much longer in our society do you think someone else’s gender expression will be perceived to be another’s business such that they can perpetrate violence on that person? Will a hate crimes law be enough to change behavior? Why do you suppose some have such difficulty simply not being bothered by the gender expression of another human being?

Did you get any insight into why it is that some people seem to become overwhelmed with the desire to destroy that which is different from them (whereas a lot of us respect, admire, and enjoy diversity in the people around them)?

I was horrified by the composer’s story of how his parents would force him to burn his scores a spunishment, how they felt his playing music was “gay” and how twisted their faith had maide them agianst their own son. Just shocking, painful.

The conversation going on about gender and sexuality in our culture today is often superficial. Why are these subjects so challenging and why is there so much fear around them? Fred’s mother asks, “Why are people killed for being who they are?”

Cathy, for those not who havent seen the movie, could you tell us a little bit about what you do, why you came to Cortez, and what you did there?

your question cuts right to the chase Teddy – this is all about sexism, the root of homophobia and transphobia – people are threatened by someone who does not fit neatly into their idea of male/female and the idea of a non-binary system is so far from many people’s conceptions

as someone who considers herself non-gender conforming, two ancedotes exemplify my point:

1) I have been called “fag” and “dyke” – in the same outfit and on the same day, go figure

2) more salient – my partner and I have experiences a great deal of harassment and commentary from men (just the truth) – they look at her (femme, pretty, etc etc) and say things like “you haven’t met the right guy” or “I’ll show you what your missing” and look at mean and are just pissed (aka threatened). as my partner says, they want to fuck me and kill you.

This is a great question. One it might take humanity all of the twenty-first century to explore.

For many, the holy grail of maturity and human development is becoming more aware of and skilled with the personal balance of the masculine and feminine. In order to have healthy families and societies we’ve got to bring more sophisticated thought and action to these questions.

I was working for glaad (www.glaad.org) and was the person most likely to parachute in and deal with crisis situations. i was on the ground for the matthew shepard murder, other hate crimes, the coming out event in Birmingham AL when Ellen came out and they aired her program sicne the local ABC station refused, things like that

my job was to ask the comunity how we could be helpful – specifically concerning media, and to try and bring media attention to these crises – fair and accurate coverage – not always easy, especially in the 90’s.

i worked with 4C -GLAD, the colorado antiviolence project and other to draw attention to this horific crime
one would think after matt shepard we would have seen more interest and awareness, but it was very difficult

in fact – as I say in the film – this case really shows how race, class and gender bias – in the lGBT community as well as in the larger community and the media – play into what gets attention. fred was native american, poor and lived in Cortez – you do the math. there were not dozens of vigils and movement from the national lgbt groups like when matt was killed. i has ot work my ass off to get the washington psot, in the life , the advocate etc to cover this

in fact, we brought a number of mothers who had been through similar experiences to cortez in an effort to draw attention – including judy shepard, who was an amazing support to paula

Wow, it’s just so sad.

Actually, we’re in the process of finishing the film right now. It has only screened as a “work-in-progress.” There’s still a bit of fundraising to complete in order to finish the sound mix, color correction, and other technical details. The film will have its world premiere in the fall (can’t announce the film festival yet, but soon). We’ll post updates on the http://www.twospirits.org website and on the facebook group of the film.

Cathy you had difficulty with DA at first didn’t you?

as a parent, I believe it is about how we raise out children. i was raised in a home where diversity was not only accepted, but celebrated – I grew up in QUeens, NY, a melting pop of ethnicitites and races. i had lesbian ”aunts” – college friends of my dad’s, that were role models.

I am raising my daughter the same way – she understands that there are many different kinds of people, many different kinds of families and that different is no only ok, it makes the world more interesting. she will be 4 in september and she gets it – so this is not rocket science – we simply must commit ourselves to it

There is so much value, so much to learn from what the Navajo people have to say throughout the film. I would like to meet each and every one of them.

It’s amazing our old christian wing-nuts didn’t kill them all back in the day. And I could not help but think of the Afghani people…and their plight will look much like native Americans if we do not leave.

Is the opera (?) finished yet?

let’s put it this way – the first time we met with the DA – Joe Olt – he said “well, all crimes are hate crimes”

not a good way to start off – I politely but firmly explained that would not fly and we would not be intimidated by him or anyone to make sure the media had the real story here

then they tried to do a press conference where they thought no saying that the suspect had talked about “bug smashing a fag” the media would not notice. too bad for them we were there to point out the truth, hence the accurate headlines the next day…..

we also had to bring in a kick-ass PFLAG mom to deal with him related to his treatment of Paula

In Navajo culture, there are four genders; some indigenous cultures recognize more. Although two-spirit people were celebrated in many tribes, as Europeans began to arrive on this continent Native views that the range of human sexuality is not a sin but a gift were met with genocide, the forced imposition of Christianity, and other kinds of subjugation that have resulted in many tribal communities losing touch with their two-spirit traditions. It would be a great loss to all of us if these traditions fade away.

Lydia, Fred had several aspects of his fluid identity, could you go into that for us?

I guess it’s like that song from *South Pacific* — “You’ve Got to Be Carefully Taught”.

I think I did a good job with raising my daughter, but how does one break the cycle in other families in which the hate is being passed down from one generation to the next?

Fred immediately identified with the nadleehi tradition in Navajo culture because the description fit how he felt about himself–male bodied with a strongly feminine nature. There was a bit of push-pull in the LGBT community about his identity and this still comes up from time to time because it’s easier to quickly categorize people in little boxes. He didn’t describe himself as trans or we would have done so in the film, but he can certainly be thought of that way if you’re looking at a narrow identity. He self-identified as gay, and wanted to be called Fred most of the time, but he also liked to be called Beyonce and Fredrica too. His sense of himself was as an integrated person.

Have other parent sin similar situation approached you Lydia? Cathy?

How has Fred’s home community reacted to the possibility of a movie being made about him and them?

when is the film being “officially” shown in Cortez, CO?

As a garden-variety heterosexual it has been a profound experience to do the research for the film and to explore these ideas in the company of such brilliant and wonderful people. Now it would be impossible for me to see the world of gender and sexuality through any other lense than the two-spirit view.

Everyone accepts that there is a spectrum of interest in sexuality–from those who believe sex is critically important and at the center of life, to those on the more asexual part of the spectrum who don’t get what all the fuss is about.

Sexual orientation also clearly exists on a spectrum from heterosexual to gay and lesbian and every shade in between.

And it seems equally simple to acknowledge that some people feel strongly male or female and that others, people like Fred, see themselves as expressing both genders.

I have worked with many parents and family members whose lives have been affected by hate violence and hate crimes. my approach is always the same: ask them what they need, provide support and when possible, guidance, and connect them with other families. there is a terrific group called Families United Against Hate (www.fuah.org) that is specifically focused on working with families like this and is made up of familes who have been through similar experiences

I have worked most intensely with judy shepard – who “got it” very early on that she has a platform most people could not ahve – i serve on her advisory board. her book comes out this august and is fascinating and moving.

i am also on the board of the tectonic theater project, which produced the laramie project, probably one of the most important things to come out of matt’s horrific murder.

We recently had a work-in-progress screening in Cortez and the response was amazing. Fred’s mother was there with his brothers and it was a very moving experience. People really get it. People from all walks of life and all perspectives get it.

one story that is something most will never hear about is the amazing dedication, focus, and love that Lydia has put into this project – she has created far more than a film here, she has created a way for lgbt and TS native communities to reach out to the larger culture, she has created a venue for complex and nuanced conversations about gender and via all of the people who have worked on this project (many on their own time) she has created a family – one that values Fred’s life and the lives of all of us. she has given the lgbt community – and the world – a gift.

So Fred’s killer was sentence to 40 years. has he expressed any remorse? Or is he just living a thug life in prison? Or do you know?

The Navajo Nation will screen Two Spirits on the reservation. And a growing coalition of over fifty nonprofit organizations have made specific commitments to use Two Spirits in violence reduction programs, safe schools initiatives, suicide prevention programs, LGBT equality programs, in racial and gender equality efforts, and in support of civil and human rights. The film will screen at festival around the world in the next couple of years and we’re also exploring the possibility of broadcast, limited theatrical distribution, and have some special screening events in the works.

The last time I checked, Fred’s killer had behaved in ways that had already extended his forty year sentence.

I really urge everyone who has not seen this amazing film, to do so. Cathy and Lydia thank you so much for bringing Fred and the greater issues around him to our attention> Please tell him mother is is very honored and respected.

Thank you all for being here tonight, pups, Lydia and Cathy

Yes, thank you for doing work which will make such a great positive impact on the world!

thank you for all the good work you do on the lake!!

You are very kind, Cathy. It has been a honor to be trusted with Fred’s story and those of other two-spirit people, and I’ve been transformed by the experience and know that everyone else who has worked on the project has as well.

Thank you FDL community!

BRAVO!, Lisa. I couldn’t be here for this tonight. We had a “situation” at our house.
But I live in Cortez and I remember this. I WANTED to be here tonight, couldn’t happen.
You are a total Jewel in the Crown of FDL.
Please know how much I appreciate you and your input here, though I lurk a lot and then can’t make it to the events I HAD TOTALLY PLANNED ON!
I appreciate you, more than you know.
*smile*
siri

Living on the Hopi Rez I can appreciate the effort it takes it getting people to trust you. I have friends on Hopi who are gay and I know it hasn’t always been easy for them at times. So I look forward for this film to have a positive effect on many reservations.

I love that there are 4 categories of spirit, kinda like the 100 names for snow in other cultures.

My sweet Sprout, now 10, is a free spirit. He’s artistic, loving, not very gender-aware and the only child of older parents. He loves to dress in costumes and play Harry Potter or James Bond and he skips unselfconsciously everywhere he goes when he’s happy. He goes to a small private school, where everyone knows him and he’s unremarkable, but his public school “friends” in the ‘hood call his behavior and dress gay.

It crushes him, not so much that they think he’s gay but that “gay” is an insult.

Every once in a great while, I still have the opportunity to respond to someone who I hear call me a fa&&ot, on public transportation or on the sidewalk. I like to walk up to them directly and say, loudly, “Yeah, so?!” You know from meeting me that this might not always be a not intimidating experience for the other person.

But, yeah, that sucks that kids born at the very end of the last century still use “gay” as an insult. I blame the South Park lads, mostly.

We’re progressives, not conservatives. So why is a discussion dealing with “oh, these people have OLDER traditional values than Christianity!!!!1!” Yay for them. Doesn’t matter.

Only thing that does matter is whether what was done to Fred Martinez was a crime and a horrible thing or not. I don’t particularly care if Fred was a follower of Navajo beliefs, Christianity, Zen, or any other religion. It’s irrelevant. We shouldn’t be wandering about judging other religions. I admire the article for the way it talks of the way Navajo beliefs are good, because they sound wonderful. I don’t like that it subsequently demeans Christianity. Let’s rise above such drivel, people. There are good Christians and bad Christians, same with anyone else.

What is relevant, and what the article should talk more about, is that he was attacked for being different, for being himself. That is what we exist for, isn’t it? We progressives are the last refuge of the different, of the judged, of society’s separate. We protect people like Fred, remember them, and fight for them. May he rest in peace.

I for one wholeheartedly support the movie/documentary, because we need things like this to educate people and show them the world. It’s a big world, people need to see it.

It probably is South Park’s fault.