Crap.
Siun, is this recent spate of upheavals just the normal course of business, or is this a timed in-your-face to two-state supporters?

Good question – part of Netanyahu’s pushback to Obama is that he will not allow any limits on settlements in Jerusalem and these sites have been very contentious.

The Israels learned a lot from the Nazis, including how to do it better. I think the local phrase is something like durham by durham, a measure of distance, a small one. Meaning that instead of eliminating the Palestinians in one fell swoop, the Israelis are doing it little by little, so that there’s never a big enough ethnic cleansing for the rest of the world to coalesce around.

I generally think of myself as a very peaceful man… this however, amazes me that this family gave up their home so peacefully. I don’t know if I could do the same.

I’m not sure they have much choice – woken at 5 AM with a brick through the window and armed soldiers busting in (rather like US soldiers night raids in Iraq and Afghanistan, eh?) and a whole family to worry about.

One man was apparently beaten by IDF when he objected to them yelling at an elderly Palestinian woman

I hear you. And yet, this would eventually result in gun-play.
The helplessness of this situation is startling – surrender your home to settlers or your family will get shot.

BTW, Code Pink has launched a boycott of Ahava which folks may want to check out:

http://www.stolenbeauty.org/ar…..8;type=415

The Israeli’s are testing Obama. They see his polls declining and the fact that he is being mired in the health care reform. They are taking aim at his resolve. This is a test. I hope he doesn’t flunk it.

This just proves that the Israelis are an occupying power and will do anything to keep their stolen lands.
Why wont the US do anything? Money and a kiss ass political agenda.

What odds?

I’m still trying to figure out Obama. New insight: community organizing is about bringing people together to talk to each other. Results not important, it’s the process that counts. (I know nothing about community organizing, so feel free to correct me. I draw my hypothesis from Obama’s book that tells not a single outcome from any of the work he did, nor does he have any retrospective on the experience, even though the book was written years after he did community organizing.)

It it’s process and not results that matter, we can explain a lot of the Obama record so far.

Why wont the US do anything?

Rhetorical Q I suppose.

What a despicable comment.

Dunam.

Thanks.

The more Israel takes by such means the more it weakens the politics of Israel remaining a Jewish State.

Ultimately Israel will be overcome by the numbers game and forced to accept the politics of Arab Palestinian inclusion into Israel proper because there will be no Arab Palestine left for Arab Palestinians.

Israel is sowing the seeds of a Israel that will by rules of democracy not remain a Jewish State which in defined sense of word democracy cannot survive democracy in having ruined a viable Palestine separated from Israel.

It becomes a version of South Africa otherwise which was unsustainable.

The ignorance Israel is displaying is remarkable indeed.

it’s a measure that’s 1000 square meters.

on edit: there are about 4 dunams to an acre.

Shit. It’ll take another 50 years for that to matter, if it’s even that soon. And the whole world will change multiple times in that interval. Israelis know exactly what they’re doing and Palestinians are powerless against it.

Ah, but if you refuse citizenship to Palestinians and no one stops you, does it matter?

This has to stop, and there’s only one country that can stop it.

Big enough to matter but small enough not to fight over.

1.5 million are citizens

You couldn’t possibly be referring to the U.S., the Israeli enabler?

The Arab citizens of Israel get 1/2 vote per capita as I recall, and shrinking. Some democracy.

It’s astounding to be that some here would think the legal eviction of a family from a house warrants comparing Israel to the Nazis and also to accuse them of ethnic cleansing.

I suggest you read the Hamas charter which calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of the last Jew in the Middle East.

well, when you bulldoze people’s olive trees and other sources of food and livelihood, even a dunam matters. and then when you take the house as well…..

it’s clear the israelis aren’t having any problems with teeth.

it’s so sad how they’ve been removing the palestinians. and i agree with you, it’s been dunam by dunam. and it’s been about as ugly as it gets.

Sad is an understatement. I’ve lost several U.S. Jewish friends (who are otherwise sensible) over Israel. And even my Jewish contractor, a pink diaper baby, is crazed when it comes to Palestinians. It’s pretty hopeless.

While despicable, these cases are a pretty good test of the Obama/Mrs. Clinton path to whatever.
As young as the administration is, they have a wealth of experience in the region (for good or ill), and their intent, both short-term and long-term, will be visible quite soon.

Never heard that. How does it work?

Well, with Dennis Ross, Israel’s stenographer, in a position of power, we probably don’t need to wait an instant longer.

What other country can possibly stop it?

I think there’s a limit on the number of Arab Israeli reps in the Knesset. If you divide the number of Arab reps by the Arab pop, that’s what it works out to, according to my back of the envelop calculation. I did it several years ago, and I might have made a mistake, but I’m pretty sure that Arab Israelis get a lot less than proportional rep. Not to mention that in a multi-party system, not a single coalition would invite them in. So, in effect, they have NO political power.

None. Exactly my point.

How can an eviction at gunpoint at 5am possibly be called legal?

pink diaper baby

what is this? i’ll guess – his parents were communists?

Um. Legal? Who’re you kidding. U.S. tortures. Israel evicts. What’s the diff?

Fifty years has already passed since 1956 War.

Fifty years in ME is not a very long measure of time.

Israel is losing the moral and ethics battles more and more as it is and may well find itself isolated sooner than later.

Or is Israel just going to kill off the Palestinians and expunge Palestine from ever being? They then have become the monsters they suffered and died from in 1930’s and early 1940’s.

They have lost any real claim to being much better than that already with Israeli conduct of past 25 years in West Bank,Gaza and Jerusalem and Lebanon. WashingtonDC does not have clean hands in any of it either.

We have some pretty good ideas but your Gov’t dudn’t listen to them.

This was also the case in the run up to the Iraq War.

Parents were commie sympathizers. He is around 60, about 5 years younger than me, and still argues that true communism has never been tried. Yet he is still crazed about Palestinians, who he thinks are lower than dirt. Go figger.

Because the Supreme Court of Israel ruled in favor of Jewish families who claimed ownership of the property that’s how. The families were served with legal eviction notices and refused to leave, so the police did exactly what police anywhere would do — they enforced the law and edict of the court.

Of course, why would you let facts and legality get in the way of another opportunity to attack Jews. It’s after all the “progressive way”.

I’m sure that Arabs aren’t de facto equally represented, but I always thought that they have full voting rights. Also haven’t heard about a limit in Knesset, last time I checked the Arabs had 10% of the seats.

Wait — haven’t you been paying attention? I know I’ve heard at least two Presidents say it in the last five years: “The United States does not torture.”

What an idealist you are. Isreal has won every battle, military or political, large or small, since its founding. Why would you ever expect it to change behavior on the off chance that the future might be different from the past?

I think Arabs are about 20% of pop. Too late for me to reconstruct my links tonight.

Legal procedure? Are you serious? From the article:

The Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood in East Jerusalem was built by the UN and Jordanian government in 1956 to house Palestinian refugees from the 1948 war. However, with the the start of the Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem, following the 1967 war, settlers began claiming ownership of the land the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood was built on.

Stating that they had purchased the land from a previous Ottoman owner in the 1800s, settlers claimed ownership of the land. In 1972, settlers successfully registered this claim with the Israeli Land Registrar.

The very idea that an asinine claim like this would be honored tells us that their idea of “law” is dangerous.

Powder meet Match … Iran ready to build N Bomb – from TimesOfLondon

EDIT: I’m not agreeing in any way that this is true, just that it’s news …

i’ve noticed that lots of jews are lunatics on this subject. it basically shakes out as “jews can do no wrong”. and also “they’re trying to destroy us, so don’t pay attention to our preventative destruction”. of course, there are other jews who very much are working for a true peace in the middle east that does not involve stealing people’s homes, land and farms. and the rant could go on, but i’m sure you know it very well.

Dude, facts are just wishes that TinkerBell has yet to weigh in on.

It is amazing to me that the Christian community has been so mute about the atrocities being perpetrated upon the Palestinians.

After all,Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem,and lived in Judea and Galilee.

That would have made Jesus Christ a Palestinian.

Surely many of these Palestinians who are being persecuted are familial descendants of His,don’t you think?

I went to a presentation this morning from an American who just got back from Palestine.
Let me tell you from the pictures and descriptions I was forced to sit through anyone who in the least that supports these Jewish Piggish ACTIONS IS OUT OF THEIR MIND.
The war was timed to start when the largest number of children would be coming home from school.
They have turrets towers that open up a remote controlled machine gun nest to mow down any GOD DAMNED thing they feel like. These people are without ANY humanity and are GOD DAMNED ruthless animals and may GOD curse any one stealing these lands.

What I witnessed at church was beyond despicable and inexcusable PERIOD.

ENOUGH.

The Times of London is completely unreliable on Iran and nukes and Israel … just sayin’

At the same time, the government began an effort to cut off foreign funding to the Israeli human rights groups

Freeze the money and the weapons Israel gets from America get Obama to say he will veto any more cash for Israel until they take some steps forward.
What those steps should be though?
Money and weapons are our levers either we show we will use them or we might as well stop pretending to want a diplomatic solution.
At this point We are the only country fooled by our diplomatic pose that we want peace.

the palestinians had been paying rent on the property as a result of the claims, but when their lawyer discovered the claims were forgeries, they stopped paying. then came the defies-legality eviction notices.

About right, but I think that it’s not that the Israeli Arabs aren’t allowed to vote or have legal restrictions concerning voting or representation.
It’s a bit different, more like discrimination combined with some Arabs not wanting to vote.

I doubt that the Israelis are thinking about their religion. This is about greed and power and growth. It’s despicable.

yeah yeah, we wouldn’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud, we know the drill. a new administration is rolling out a propaganda campaign for a new war, starting in september, because everyone knows you don’t roll out new products in august.

The Israeli Supreme court ruled in favor of the Jewish families who claimed ownership. That makes it a legal procedure. If you don’t agree with the finding of the court that’s fine, you have the right to disagree. But you calling the claim “assinine” does not give you or anyone else the right to usurp the rule of law.

I would guess that you have a political agenda – that’s what this is really about isn’t it? I’ll tell you what, after you passionately and honestly condemn Hamas for calling for the destruction of Israel in their charter and the killing of the last Jew in Palestine — then I’ll give a damn about an eviction. How’s that quid pro quo for you?

When permits are issued in an equitable manner, and when the laws are equally enforced against Jews illegally seizing and squatting, or building without permits, then you might talk this shit.
Until that starts happening, try looking up Teddy Kollek’s stand on building in Jerusalem when he was mayor.

The thing is, if you read Rashid Kahlidi, a lot of Jews did buy land from Ottoman empire owners who were wanting to cash out of a dangerous, unprofitable situation. But property rights in Palestine were poorly defined in that area in that time. Lot of land was used in common and the fact that some rich Palestinians, looking to cash in, were able to file legal claims to the land against poor semi-nomadic tribes, is beside the point. But such complications need not confuse rapacious Israelis.

Agreed. But no one is going to do anything about it.

I find the “news” interesting, esp. how it ties into Bibi’s pledge to launch an attack …

As I recall, there is an absolute limit on the number of Arab Israeli reps in the Knesset, regardless of pop.

Well, you underestimate the sentiment. Jews think it’s an existential struggle and everything goes. Do not underestimate the fact that Jews think they’ll be expunged from the face of the earth if Israel caves in to Paltestinians.

US + Israel = the true evil empire.

When’s the last time Iran bombed and killed masses of civilians, or invaded and occupied its neighbors? Oh, that’s right, never.

@54

It is beyond despicable that supposed Christians in this country have not connected the dots that Christ WAS a Palestinian.

That organizations like CUFI-Christians United For Israel(led by John Hagee,Joe Liebermann’s pal) sends hundreds of millions of dollars to Israel.

HOW do these quasi Christians reconcile that they are underwriting the inhumanity being perpetrated upon the descendants of their God?

I’ll look for the info. Thx.

Chirstianists are about power. Get with the plan.

One can reasonably discuss and debate permits and settlements without comparing the Jews to Nazis and using terms like ethnic cleansing. That’s not acceptable.

I think that the Iranians bombed civilians during the war with Iraq. i think you’ll find references to “War of the Cities”

Sorry I’m too lazy to do it again. As I recall, you have to find the rules about how many Arab Israeli reps in the Knesset are allowed, then separately what % Arab Israelis are of the pop.

But even after you do all that work, you must realize that no coalition would include Arab Israelis, meaning their political power is zero.

I am convinced Bibi plans an attack, I am also convinced Iran is not building a nuke (see NIE 2007 for example as well as the Khameinei fatwa against building them) – and it seems the US is either ok with that or just unwilling to tell Israel absolutely no.

That said the Times has been a very problematic player in all of this – hyping unreliable stories etc – in ways that tend to undercut those of us who are pushing for a fact based approach.

So are you averring that the Iraqis are the White Knights of that war?

The thread from earlier today,the one about nuclear warheads in Israel has some relevant commentary.

Shoothatarrow,among others, made some exceptional points on that thread.

It would be worth a look ,imho.

yeah, the crimes over there are heartrending – fully backstopped by the US taxpayer.

Obama revealed his allegiances clearly by keeping silent as the IDF rampaged through gaza, then stopped on a dime the day before the inauguration.

I feel for you if you voted for the guy expecting improvement in the Middle East.

I’ll do the looking E, but IIRC there have been Arab members in the Cabinet in the last few years.

Let me tell you the color picture of the toddle with phosphorus burns on her ankles and little belly, whose mother was burned to death in the same phosphorus attack, was enough to turn my stomach enough that I lost my appetite.

Hell no. I was but informing Sharkbabe that Iranians do the same nasty stuff that the rest of the human race does.

The Catholics tried for twelve years,Ms. Cahn,to “get me with the plan”.

Presuming you didnt agree. Good on you.

Yes that was terrible I agree, absolutely horrific. Perhaps if terrorists like Hamas didn’t launch their rockets from that mother and child’s roof that wouldn’t have happened. You know Hamas don’t you, they’re the wonderful people whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of every Jew in Palestine.

Not building a bomb?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..736785.ece

Oh, please detail the legal claims of the Israelis. Including the switch to property rights against nomadic users of the land in common that the rich Ottomans found a convenient form of cashing out. Kinda like challenging the Amerinds common use of land when they had not legal system. Yep, rape em while ye kan.

Well, without taking sides, I’d suggest that there are no White Knights in the Iran-Iraq War, but U.S. support of Iraq does suggest where the Black Knight might reside.

The legal nuances of the case are not the point; there are countless judicial decisions throughout the world where the losing litigant does not agree with the ruling of the court. The rule of law needs to prevail.

I guess if you don’t like it, you can always get someone to blow up another bus in Jerusalem and rip some more Jewish women and childrens bodies to shreds. That’s ok isn’t it.

In that one, I’ll also go with None of the Above.

I’d note for the record that you didn’t answer my Q.

clown, US taxpayer dollars do not go to Hamas.

the white phosphorus referenced earlier, a banned chemical weapon by the way, was supplied and paid for by the USA.

so when it scorches babies, the moral stain applies to you and everyone else whose taxes paid for it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..575070.ece

Stop the obnoxious. please. Unless and until you consider that the Israelis are quite deliberately moving the Arabs out of Jerusalem, and that Israeli law is being selectively enforced so that it ’s mostly an aid to this effort, you shouldn’t point to rule of law.

And perhaps you can point out the ban on phosphorus and we can see how the US shouldn’t have supplied it or should bear responsibility for its use.

Does your outrage apply also to acts of terrorism by Palestinians? Just curious.

I don’t care what they ruled, this is disgusting. How would you feel about a claim that some ancestor bought something from some occupier 200 years ago so you lose your house? You call that the rule of law? I didn’t think so.

US taxpayer dollars account for about half of the UN food relief that’s distributed to about three-quarters of the Gazans.

Civilized countries have statutes of limitations for adverse possession. Twenty years is common.

White Phosphorus.. made in Pine Bluff arsenal… Pine Bluff Arkansas.

Blue Dog Mike Ross’ district.. he orders it up with earmarks all of the time. Including earmarks on his web page this year.

He calls it smoke mortar.

Israeli Naval forces attack the SPIRIT OF HUMANITY aid boat …Jun 30, 2009 … On Tuesday afternoon Israeli Naval Forces attacked and boarded the Free Gaza Movement boat, the SPIRIT OF HUMANITY, 23 miles off the coast …
http://www.imemc.org/article/60992 – Cached – Similar

They just censored my response. It’s gone. I love the tolerance of opposing points-of-view here.

Me an idealist? More like a realist.

No matter how wrong Israel is or what the facts and truths be you pro Israel types are into some serious reality denial plainly enough.

Maybe someday you will push the rethink button.

Until that unlikely event celebrate your wrongness and tell each other how superior you are if it feels so good.

Doing so will not change reality.

Try again. I’m sure that you can respond in a manner that won’t be excised.

Do you have any understanding of what you’re reading? eCahnomics is far from pro-Israeli, shoot. RIF.

does the term ‘hasbara’ mean anything to you? just curious.

It’s like taqqiyah, except that it’s stretching the truth rather than just flat lying, right?

hmmm, hadn’t heard of that term.

I was referring to a program run out of the Israeli foreign ministry:

Israel’s foreign ministry is reported to be establishing a special undercover team of paid workers whose job it will be to surf the internet 24 hours a day spreading positive news about Israel.

Internet-savvy Israeli youngsters, mainly recent graduates and demobilized soldiers with language skills, are being recruited to pose as ordinary surfers while they provide the government’s line on the Middle East conflict.

“To all intents and purposes the internet is a theater in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and we must be active in that theatre, otherwise we will lose,” said Ilan Shturman, who is responsible for the project.

The existence of an “internet warfare team” came to light when it was included in this year’s foreign ministry budget. About $150,000 has been set aside for the first stage of development, with increased funding expected next year.

http://progressivenetworksepa.org/?p=1808

In an interview this month with the Calcalist, an Israeli business newspaper, Shturman, the deputy director of the ministry’s hasbara department, admitted his team would be working undercover.

“Our people will not say: ‘Hello, I am from the hasbara department of the Israeli foreign ministry and I want to tell you the following.’ Nor will they necessarily identify themselves as Israelis,” he said. “They will speak as net-surfers and as citizens, and will write responses that will look personal but will be based on a prepared list of messages that the foreign ministry developed.”

hey redfishy! they’ll pay you to do what you do, if they aren’t already.

Israeli Soldiers Talk About War Crimes

by Jerrold Kessel and Pierre Klochendler, July 18, 2009

JERUSALEM — Israel continues to brush off allegations of human rights violations during its military campaign against Hamas in Gaza launched at the end of December. A series of reports on such violations through the 22-day campaign come soon after completion of fieldwork by the UN human rights four-person fact-finding team headed by South African jurist Richard Goldstone.

Published within the last fortnight, the reports by international human rights organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch appear geared to pressing issues which they hope will be addressed by the influential commission under Justice Goldstone.

Hard on the heels of these reports come allegations not from international human rights groups but from Israeli soldiers themselves, in the form of 54 separate testimonies from 26 soldiers who served in the campaign.

The testimonies, from 14 unidentified conscripts and 12 reserve soldiers, were accumulated by Shovrim Shtika (Breaking the Silence), an Israeli group which has a lengthy and, in the eyes of many, a credible, record of getting soldiers to talk about their experiences on the battleground and in the occupied Palestinian territories. Their reports usually do not reflect well on the Israel army.”(Excerpt)

This is a superb article -ALL the pieces written by Kessell -Klochender.

All their most recent pieces as well as the excerpted article can be viewed in their entirety at anti-war.com website.

Check that budget figure again, sporkavat. The Saudis and other Gulf states pay a hell of a lot better. Hell,even the Algerians pay better.
Some of the out and out bullshit about Hamas regularly featured here might even be subsidized at a higher rate.

Spork,I had remembered reading that some time ago,but couldn’t remember where.

Thanks for posting it.

something to remember when that fish comes swimming around. g’night folx.

YOU didn’t see those pictures so you can’t comment .
Only animals would do what I saw

Only humans would do what you saw, just as only humans would put on explosive belts filled with nails and screws and get on buses or walk into pizza parlors.

macaquerman writes you are not pro Israeli.

Have I misread the tone of your comments in this thread?

If so — my error and I apologise.

Read comment 3 when she compares Israelis to Nazis. That’s kind of a hint right there.

I guess your focus on the “rule of law” means that you would be in favor of Israel being called to task when they break international law? You know, they would have been multiple times except the US always intervenes or vetoes to protect Israel from being held accountable. Glad to know you would support such actions.

Does she really compare the Israelis to Nazis? or is she talking about what they learned under Nazi control? It’s a fine point, I know. But given the history here, it will be brought up occasionally.

And truthfully, does using the two terms in the same sentence deserve automatic knee-jerk thoughtless reaction? I don’t think so and hate to see when it happens among normally intelligent people.

” including learning how to do it better.” seems like nothing other than a comparison.

I’m not sure what you refer to as automatic knee-jerk reaction.
Would you clarify?

Not to worry, folks. Israel will not exist in 50 years (maybe only 20 or 30).

Most Israelis know what they are doing is terribly wrong, by any human or historical standard. History will present them the bill. They know it; they’re scared shitless.

We’re all just bystanders to a horror being carefully planned in all the paranoid quarters of Israel and the American Jewish community.

I’m sure we can look forward to the Israeli Supreme Court upholding the claims of the many hundreds of thousands of non-Jews whose homes and lands are being illegally occupied by Jews since 1947.