Gates is in his 70’s?

Then racist assholes it is.

I said it before in thread under my own post:

Here’s a light-skinned, small-framed, gray-haired, golf-shirt-wearing, expensive-eyewear-donning guy who shows you his ID with residency upon request; there’s travel bags within reasonable reach, probably have airline baggage tags or other ID tags on them. If the driver was still present, there’s a car in the street and the driver has ID on him, too; the plates will check out to a service. And the guy has a cane nearby, is going for a freaking phone, not a gun.

What exactly is this? It’s beyond screwed up as far as police work goes.

We’ve already established downthread that no matter what Dr Gates did or said (or how he said it) it was an illegal arrest and anyone who disagrees should go away.

Oh, hi Rayne!

The wingers just enjoy making trouble.

the wingosphere automatically has to disagree with him or b) wingnut bloggers are just racist assholes.

I choose b.

I don’t have a picture of Mumia on my door but I do listen to his commentaries/essays on Prison Radio. I also support Leonard Peltier’s bid for freedom.

Barack better be careful walking in “white neighborhoods”. The white hoods might come out and get him.

The policeman f*cked up and the police society is too stubborn to admit it.

I’m going with both a) & b).

Question: Think he would have been hauled out of his own home if he were white? Assuming every other circumstance was the same?

Nope. The cops would have beat a hasty retreat and hoped he didn’t call up their supervisors.

Here’s what the cop said today.

Crowley said: “I think it is regrettable that anybody on either side of this issue would make comments – and you know I saw some of them, but I think its regrettable that anybody, either somebody who supports me or somebody who thinks I acted inappropriately — without knowing the whole story, without talking to those who were there who have firsthand knowledge of the events and who saw themselves the way in which professor Gates acted and what led to his arrest.”

Ahh, America needs to come out to the Sonoran Desert, and specifically, Arizona. Take, for example, state law enforcement or the DPS, is currently operating under a court-approved consent agreement in which the DPS is prohibited from racial profiling. Of course, the DPS stated that it was not admitting any wrongful liability. And that’s fine with this Chicano.

In contrast, the Republican-led legislature funded to the tune of over two million dollars to a Republican-Elected County Sheriff to do “crime suppression sweeps” that target Chicano communities. I suppose that if you are required to cheer for anything that passes for “pink skivvies” political desperation has set in. And of course Hispanic favorability for the GOP is now at an underwhelming 6%, and there is no where else to go but to trend downward.

But then, knowing that if you mouth-off to a law enforcement officer, your arrest is quickly consolidated in the form of handcuffs. However, out here in ARizona, you will find SWAT sitting on you lap, and the Sheriff’s tank corps is just waiting around the corner, for the inevitable call in which the indelible “tracks” will rise to the surface after being run over. But there is a small consolation awaiting you and that’ for having the “tracks” run up your back, and which makes you an historian for having created history, personally.

Jaango

does anyone have the audio of G Gordon Liddy suggesting the people take “head shots” at ATF agents?

The driver was gone and Dr Gates was in the house.

ATF aren’t cops, they’re jack-booted thugs.

[/gun nuts]

the way in which professor Gates acted…

Meaning he was uppity and did not show enough respect. He was lucky he didn’t have his head blown off.

Hi, BT
Call me indecisive, but can I have option c) both? Since a and b are both thought-free knee-jerk reactions anyway…

And iirc, Gates is not quite 60. Small minds shouldn’t throw around such big words…they might hurt themselfs!

FunnyWheelieDiva

I would be careful over showing reflexive reverse racism. Bill Cosby has condemned Gates and the way he has knee-jerk reacted.

You’re probably right, Diva, it should be c) they’re Pavlovlian racist assholes.

you have mail ‘podner

and p.s. this is the same crowd that just celebrated the passing of “that communist Cronkite!”

From John Trudell’s bio at Allmusic.com:

Native-American poet and activist John Trudell spent the majority of the 1970s as the national chairman of the American Indian Movement (AIM). Trudell left Native-American politics in 1979 after his wife, mother-in-law, and three children were killed in a fire at their home on a reservation in Nevada. The fire, which Trudell was convinced was no accident, came just 12 hours after he had set fire to the American flag on the steps of the FBI Building in Washington D.C.

Trudell believes the FBI was involved in the fire that killed his family. The government thought that eliminating the leaders of the Black Panthers and AIM would result in the demise of those organizations. They were right about the Panthers but AIM is alive and well.

Let’s see, he’s not 70 but in his late 50’s. The driver was not there, any more facts up there?

According to the cops’ own written report, they hauled an elderly, respected black professor (who was not dressed as a thug or carrying burglar’s tools or looking like anything but exactly who he says he was) out of his own home after he, understandably, yelled at them for trying to keep him out of his own home — and AFTER he’d shown that he was who he said he was.

Oh come on, Raven, go ahead and strut your stuff like you did in bmaz’s post.

Air it out again, maybe you’ll have a more receptive audience who’ll pat you on the back and greet you with hail-fellow-well-met.

Does that still mean he should have been arrested for yelling at them when they questioned his right to be in his own home? AFTER he showed them his IDs?

Boston has a long and nasty history of anti-black attitudes. Only within the past few decades has there been much change.

I give a shit if someone pats me on the back. Tell me again, he’s 70 and the driver was there with him, right?

Any thoughts on the breaking news that Reid will delay senate vote till after August?

Pelosi has indicated her willingness to keep the House in session. Any way to pressure Reid to do the same?

PW – probably shouldn’t even dip my toe in here – but it’s no use talking to Raven right now. As much as I like his commentary most of the time, on this one we disagree big time. See postings on Marcy’s blog – bmaz post on this issue.

And with that, I withdraw from the whole contorversy to go do some work.

I believe Gates is 59

“I’m trying to figure out if a) this is just a Pavlovian response to what Obama said — the wingosphere automatically has to disagree with him; or b) wingnut bloggers are just racist assholes.”

Wingnut bloggers are racist assholes.

I don’t know what it means. I think Crowley put it pretty well. “its regrettable that anybody, either somebody who supports me or somebody who thinks I acted inappropriately — without knowing the whole story, without talking to those who were there who have firsthand knowledge of the events and who saw themselves the way in which professor Gates acted and what led to his arrest.”

Don’t bother, PW. It’s all been said on bmaz’s thread. It’s not about facts or reasonably interpreting the law. It’s about stirring the pot and seeing what floats.

FWDiva

you are right, you shouldn’t

Aw come on, I have been watching; you and Raven are not that far off ultimately, it is in how you get to that point that diverges. But it isn’t worth a feud or sniping.

so, if it’s all been said what’s the point of this thread?

C’mon, Raven, why is it OK to arrest a man for yelling at you?

As Bmaz noted, he had already shown Crowley the proof needed to accept that he was indeed the owner of his own house. His right to be there had already been acknowledged. It was only after he wanted the names of the cops’ supervisor that Crowley freaked.

His booking picture looks much older than that but I really don’t know.

lots you can do here

Southern Dragon @17

I am reminded that back in the 1970’s, and in Denver in particular, “Corky” Gonzales, the erstwhile leader of the Chicano Movement, was later “outed” as an FBI informant. And which was pretty much understood by all to be an ‘actual fact’ in that then present time. As such, the Chicano Movement had “informants” in J.Edgar Hoover’s FBI. To wit, his mistress got caught hiding explosives and guns in a landfill, turned state’s evidence, and therein is the start of this ongoing historical saga. And today, this behavior has come full circle relative to Chicano leaders, and where “transparency” is the requisite behavior and nothing less is accepted.

Jaango

Apparently, as bmaz pointed out at the end of the previous thread, it is not ok to arrest him no matter what he said or how he said it.

There were plenty in the VVAW too.

Professor Gates
1. 5′ 7″ & 150#
2. Recently had a hip replacement
3. Has one leg shorter than the other
4. Walks with a cane
5. Is in his late 50s
Sure sounds dangerous

But damn it, the darkie showed the white man DISRESPECT!!! No self-respecting white man in a uniform can ignore that. Why is that so hard to understand?

He’s actually 59, according to Wikipedia. So Tim was wrong. He’s a year shy of 60, and black, which makes him extremely dangerous.

Thanks, bmaz. Honestly, I respect Raven – I think he’s mad right now, and I hope we will be friends again. But I see arguments against straw men, not against the facts we do have.

And based on my experience (in life and law) there is no “objective” truth about any occurrence. Both/all sides will give narratives at least slightly different, while believing they are telling the objective truth.

Gates’s statemet (available to dkos link from bmaz’s post) says he couldn’t have beenyelling because he has a bronchial infection (other sources support the fact of the illness).
Now, I tend to discount any argument that “I can’t be guilty because I couldn’t have/wouldn’t have done xxx.” I suspect Gates was yelling.

Point being, as so many have emphasized – yelling at a cop is NOT A CRIME.

That is the bottom line. I hope some who are exercised today will come to see that.
And I really do have to get some work done. It’s good to be able to argue with people of good will, though, and I do think most of us here are people of good will (Raven, you included, though I’m not sure you think that of me right now). Gotta go, really.

He’s busy focusing on somebody’s tangential error — an error that has no impact on whether Officer Crowley was justified in hauling a man off to jail from his own home AFTER that man had proved his right to be there, simply because the man dared sass him for trying to arrest him — and trying to use it to pretend that Gates is a total liar and Crowley is a put-upon saint.

Regardless if he’s fifty-nine or seventy, Gates, who walks with a cane and is not exactly prime thug-life burglar material, is no threat to a younger, muscled officer.

That’s not what Bmaz said, and you know it. Here’s what he said:

And therein lies the problem for Sergeant Crowley and the Cambridge PD. It was a patently illegal and insufficient arrest from the start. Gates is arrested for disturbing the peace – of Sergeant Crowley. See the words “directed at a uniformed officer”? This is the epitome of contempt of cop, and that is an illegal and unconstitutional arrest. What is not contained in the statement of facts is any reference to an identifiable citizen/member of the public being disturbed. None whatsoever. This is precisely the type of conduct castigated historically by courts as generally described in Duran v. City of Douglas.

Again, Gates had already shown that he wasn’t a burglar. Crowley had conceded that. Quit trying to weasel: Are you now saying that yelling at Crowley and wanting to know the name of his supervisor justifies being hauled off to jail?

If Crowley had just given Gates his supervisor’s name, then what would likely have occurred would have been a call to the Soop, followed by a slap on the wrist for Crowley — likely in the form of sensitivity training. Now, he’s going to be known as the guy who hauled the most respected black professor in America out of his own home because said professor dared yell at him.

Got that right. There was a time I thought that as long as VVAW was a govt staffed group we should have been gettin’ a paycheck from DOJ.

On the substantive merits I agree with Obama concerning the Gates arrest.
However, as I said last night, his answer was undisciplined and not helpful to achieving health care reform.

Obama should have known using the word “stupid”, even if accurate {which I believe it is}, in reference to police action would be fool’s gold for the mindless media and great fodder for the Right. It was an unforced error at a critical stage of the game.

The guy was just getting home from a trip to China to find that he misplaced his housekeys?!? That would incline me to forgive him for any crankiness toward the police officer arresting him in for breaking into his own home. Lack of sleep like that can cause all kinds of irrational behavior.

Read the latest New Yorker about the Maricopa County sheriff-if you don’t already know about him. Argghh!

You have misjudged my comments all day. I just don’t ascribe to the conventional wisdom here. I did not know that you could say anything you wanted to to a cop and he would be in violation of the law if he arrested you. I also find this argument that someone who is 60 or 70 couldn’t possibly be dangerous pretty silly. See last months killing at the Holocaust Museum. I am in no way saying Dr Gates presented that kind of threat but to just dismiss the idea?

As I understand it, right wingers now support the government being able to come into peoples’ homes and arresting them for nothing other than yelling. Individual freedom my ass.

Do we have no lurkers from Beantown to comment on the gaping enthnic divide in greater metropolitan Boston? The racism there, although subtle, is as strong as in cities in the South. A causal rider on the T can not miss the stark racial divide there. Just ride the Orange Line south of Mass Ave station.

From earlier reports, Gates is 58 (elderly? I’m too close for it to be elderly…). From Gate’s writing, he couldn’t shout, as he’d been just treated for a bronchial infection, and had not yet recovered. He asked for badge and name, about 3 times, I’m sure adamantly, but was denied or ignored. He was asked to come on the porch, first refused, but when he did step out, he was arrested. Probably Cambridge police procedure to not arrest a resident in the house for disturbing the peace. That’s why they asked him multiple times to step out – to cover themselves. This would have been avoided if they had said “Gee, Prof. Gates, could you step on the porch so we can arrest you? Otherwise, we’ll just have to leave…” – the truth, but not stated.

(snark on)
But PW, your entire comment is BS because the cop hauled Gates off his front porch, not “out of his house”. And Gates shouldn’ta followed the cop out onto the porch anyhoo, that’s just plain threatening!
(snark off)

FWDiva

bmaz July 23rd, 2009 at 10:24 am
156
In response to constantweader @ 150 (show text)

Yeah, that is a bunch of bull. The cop was most certainly not “protecting Gates’ home” once he knew it was indeed Gates and his home, which the cop fully admits to knowing, in his own damn police report, almost immediately. Could Gates have acted different, yes. But to argue that that somehow justifies his arrest is completely ludicrous. Gates could have screamed at the top of his lungs “get out of my house you motherfucking racist asshole pig” and it STILL would have been an illegal arrest. How about that for a chip on the shoulder?? Jeeb

Hi PB! *waves*

Here’s The Story

I was just coming here to OT the thread and comment about Reid! Glad ya got here earlier!

What a scumbag Reid is . . . . can’t believe this crap . . . sigh.

I remember well the Southies screaming at integration with the ugliest faces I have ever seen. There’s some big time racism in that city.

There is indeed.

Citizen Raven:

I’m late to the party but, Brother Raven where the hell are you comin’ from? There is no question that under the circumstances and the factual scenario as you have helped to illuminate, the cops can, in the absense of any witnesses for Brother Gates, charge ‘im with ANYthin’ includin’ jackin’ off on the cop’s shoes and the best that Gates could hope for is dropped charges. That’s the point here Freebird…no matter what Gates said to the officers, once they established that he was who he said he was and that it was his house they should have said thanks and “have a nice night” but they didn’t…I don’t give a shit if Gates was so upset because he didn’t appreciate that the cops were “just doing their jobs to keep his property safe” that he yelled the most vile shit at them. Cops are s’posed ta be trained to take that abuse and these folks would have,believe me, if Gates were white. End of story…there is NUTHIN’ that justifies charges bein’ filed against Citizen Gates under these circumstances.

Where the hell are you comin’ from Citizen Raven…no sugar for your Wheaties this mornin’?

Wiki has him at 58 (Sept 16, 1950).

You know, I once had a boarder…white male, mid fifties, utter asshole. He kept calling the cops on me for some imagined reason or other, then would wind up arguing with them, screaming and yelling at them, calling the watch commander back out, no less. More than once. He didn’t get arrested. I fucking wish he had, but he didn’t. They did warn him the last time that they wouldn’t be so forbearing the next time, but by then I successfully evicted him.

So you know racism plays a big part here.

The he-said-she-said quibbling over the incident is completely missing the point here, which is that racism is still deeply rooted in this country. The elevation of a black man to the White House has done nothing to mitigate the underlying smoldering racism.

As I have said twice, I did not know that Gates could have screamed at the top of his lungs “get out of my house you motherfucking racist asshole pig” and it STILL would have been an illegal arrest. Way back this morning I had the incredible stupidity to suggest that Dr Gates was so pissed off that he pushed it until he got arrested. Now, with the seeming common knowledge that the arrest would be illegal, I may believe it even more.

Citizen Twain:

I was in my first year of grad school in Boston and the professor I was gunna study with lived in West Roxbury and had a daughter who was in elementary school during the busing crisis, the reality of “liberal” New England was exposed for all to see at that time…I have lived in Texas and Louisiana and have been in Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, Georgia and North and South Carolina and I am here to tell ya that there is no more racist city than Boston.

Once lived in Phoenix.

Joke Arpaio has to go, what a disgrace and drain on the taxpayers of AZ and Maricopa Co.

Having had some experience with the police in Cambridge I would like to say that they are, in general, pretty decent. They would, in general, rather discus, defuse, disperse than confront and arrest. That said whatever motivation the arresting cop says he had is bullshit. In Cambridge damn near everyone, let alone the cops, know where all the people “of note” live. And Gates’ house has seen a demonstration or two while he has been living there. For the cops not to know who lived there and that man was/is Gates is pure and utter crap. Admittedly I have not lived in Cambridge in 20 years but do still visit and hang out every week or so and have many friends there and I know I could give anyone a tour around houses “of note” that could last hours. Once again I do believe that the blue line of shame will be drawn and lies will drop as plentiful as leaves from the mouths of the police while they protect their own.

Citizen Raven:

“…I had the incredible stupidity to suggest that Dr. Gates was so pissed off that he pushed it until he got arrested.”

But that’s the point Brother Raven, it doesn’t matter what he yelled at the cops and unless he physically assaulted them they should have unassed his place after tellin’ ‘im that they understood why he was so angry. There is no justification for cops to bring charges under the circumstances as we know them…no more keepin our mouths shut while the cops walk all over us. Black or white this shit must stop.

The ghost of Louise Day Hicks still rides on the MTA

Citizen nomolos:

I lived in the safety of Chestnut Hill but my impression of the Cambridge cops is the same as yours, that is pretty decent and not lookin’ for trouble unless your Black or in a neighborhood where you don’t belong.

there is no more racist city than Boston.

Might seem hard to believe but it’s true. It could be because the disparity between the haves and the have-nots among the whites is so enormous and causes so much bitterness among the poor whites that they take it out on the darkies, because that’s all they can do.

unless your Black or in a neighborhood where you don’t belong.

Edited

I was once stopped by Texas DPS on I-10, while returning home from a hunting trip in NM. The officer was very agitated and aggressive, though I was not speeding or doing anything else. It was very frightening seeing how agitated this guy was…and in the middle of nowhere. Only time in my life I feared the cops. And I am white, conservative looking…law-abiding…harmless.

This is likely what many blacks and Hispanics deal with daily…really terrible.

Well, I guess I get that now.

Citizen nomolos:

I put that in because the cops would react as they did if the person was Black OR poor white or young with dirty jeans and long hair.

Doesn’t this fall into the “making a mountain out of a mole hill” category?
In a way Gates was lucky. The police were considering sending him to Guantanamo for further questions but then dropped the idea.

Citizen torgo:

And that is the point, isn’t it?

You’re not black, are you?

That’s the thing. There sure are a lot of white people having strong opinions about how out of line Gates and Obama are, without any awareness of the institutional racism in our society.

He was born September 16, 1950. He will be 59 in September.

No snark, mon, honest,
but which point? That this whole “flap” is a shiny object in the greater scheme of things? Or that the Powers That Be, through Gitmo and other, often brutal, usurpations of our rights, have convinced so many citizens that almost “anything goes” and any interaction with Authority that doesn’t result in a bullet or a beating was a good one, regardless of what the Constitution or Rule of Law would actually dictate? (OK, that was wordy, my point is that things like Gitmo and mass arrests in Minneapolis, etc have cowed many into accepting and/or excusing a lot of pretty unacceptable behavior by law enforcement)
Or both?

FWDiva

This is no shiny object thingy. This intimidation bullshit needs to come out in the open. Not everyone is willing to excuse unlawful behavior by the authorities. It’s time we started people on calling on it. Obama did just that, and he should be given credit for it.

Citizen Funnydiva2002:

And that is the point, ain’t it?…That is, we live at the end of a 148 year old experience with fascism and the institutional corruption of our country is so extensive that every social and political conflict from the street to the board room to the sands of Iraq is all part of the same problem.

THAT is the point Sister Funnydiva2002.

I completely agree that the BS must be called out. That’s why I asked Norske to clarify his response to torgo’s comment.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the M$M will probably focus only on the “shiny object” aspect of the story: ooooh! the president spoke out of turn! he called all cops stupid! he automatically sided with his black friend, so he’s racist! Etc Etc ad nauseum.

But, I guess that’s nothing new and they’d have found a different shiny object to distract from substantive debate of healthcare reform in any case. And it really does beat discussing the Sanford Family European Vacation…I wanna watch complete idocy, I’ll rent me the National Lampoon version…

FWDiva

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I think you’re on to something. Wouldn’t have gotten that from Torgo’s comment or your brief response, though…

FWDiva

Why doesn’t the police department release the figures on how many white people the officer arrested in their own houses under similar circumstances?

That’s my belief, too. I’ve been a long-hair most of my adult years, and feel I’ve been pulled over for “driving while long-haired (male)”. Not always young – but hard for them to tell until they stop me. BTW, I haven’t done a survey of towns, but I lived in Vermont 4 years, and had never heard such open racism. Bartender in a bar, lifting a stuffed toy monkey and hollering, for all the patrons to hear, racist remarks about the young black man walking across the street! So, Boston, and probably most of New England – racist with little experience with blacks ( less than 2 pct in VT)

I just came back from court where I fought a ticket. I was definitely not guilty and when I showed for the trial the cop offered to reduce the moving violation to no points.. the fine would be 80 plus a 100 surcharge… No.. we’ll have a trial.

I knew it was going to be his word against mine, but I had a copy of the law which was actually clearly open to some wiggle room and interpretation.

He begins his testimony and commits 4 lies, one was apparently just his confusion about the compass direction of the road… one was just his assertion that a car was in the intersection I “illegally entered without yeilding”… That would be impossible of course or there would have been a collision. There was no other car. Then he lied about him being in a marked police cruiser and me driving a red convertible. He was on a scooter (and I had a photo of him sitting on it writing the ticket). My car is a red sedan.

Not guilty.

Long and short is that cops simply lie and expect to be taken a truth tellers, but he fabricated a story and had no memory of the incident. Judge could see his lying. They tried to intimidate me with a no point $180 fine.. So all I did was have 3 hrs of my life wasted and confirm that cops are liars. The incident took place on the block I live on and the judge tried to trip me up and asked for the name of the corner restaurant which I of course knew.

I have little to no respect for police in these matters.

Another upity black man trying to push around these big bad policeman. /s

Police are supposed to be trained in handling tense situations. If they had handled themselves professionally, this would have been a non-issue. Obviously, the police bungled this situation to the extreme.

Aren’t the rightyblogs the faction that is normally all “man’s home is his castle” and “justified to shoot trespassers”?

Presser from Cambridge police now.

Cops threatened to arrest my dad who was wearing a suit in a spiffy Toyota waiting to pick me up from work.
My Dad yelled at them too. I got off work in time to explain to the cop my Dad after sitting for a 1/2 hour had bad circulation and needed time to get back some circulation before he could get his ID which was in his back pocket.
Cop claimed someone suspicious was reported waiting in the White Hen parking lot. Guys in suits always make me suspicious.
But not the kids at the White Hen waiting for someone to buy them beer or the local dealers its the brown guys in suits!

Anchor Baby should check in home another homeless person got killed in the Jungle as the locals call it. Asians and Hispanics seem to get along fine all the Asian stores got Mexican food I don’t know why she is so hung up.

Only for white people.

I’m trying to figure out if a) this is just a Pavlovian response to what Obama said — the wingosphere automatically has to disagree with him; or b) wingnut bloggers are just racist assholes.

It’s both. And more, much more. Obama’s election just gives the racist Republicans a catalyst to express themselves. At least we know where they are coming from.

Like Bill Maher has said a couple of times lately, “…[not] all Republicans are racists, but if you are a racist chances are that you are a Republican.”

Well said and entirely correct. Police officers like to think they are God; anyone who bothers to tell them different gets in trouble. When the hell did we in America decide that just because another man had a gun that we should obey him? As a famous man once said, ” Fuck the Police.”

Of course they do.

I thought that this was a pretty interesting segment from the show, Morning Meeting on MSNBC.

Plus, a good little commentary to go with it.

http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2260

I heard he has been teaching tolerance/diversity courses for several years…SO?

That’s great.

The answer to your question, a) this is just a Pavlovian response to what Obama said — the wingosphere automatically has to disagree with him or b) wingnut bloggers are just racist assholes: . . . Yes

“shiny object to distract from substantive debate of healthcare reform”

This is the point. Finally someone sees it.

The fact that we are having this discussion indicates to me just how fascist our society/culture really is. Why should a respected and honored professor act humble in the presence of a police officer with a gun? I agree with sander and AngelsAwake