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	<title>Comments on: Liveblogging the Obama Health Care Presser: Cost Control Up Front; Politics Pushed Aside?</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/</link>
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		<title>By: libbyliberal</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941235</link>
		<dc:creator>libbyliberal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941235</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;ceo of mayo clinic on charlie rose totally dissing medicare.  wow.  he is kind of proposing a benign ice floe end of life cost saving solution for the aged.  that is a bit chilling.l &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;and the elephant in the room not mentioned by media or Obama is tremendous profit gouging of health care industries.  but never brought up in plans to make health care truly reformed.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;these guys can’t serve 2 masters.  so the corporatists are the shadow masters, and the spin is on to convince us as consumers they are doing their best for us.  Where’s Ralph N. when you need him.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ceo of mayo clinic on charlie rose totally dissing medicare.  wow.  he is kind of proposing a benign ice floe end of life cost saving solution for the aged.  that is a bit chilling.l </p>
<p>and the elephant in the room not mentioned by media or Obama is tremendous profit gouging of health care industries.  but never brought up in plans to make health care truly reformed.</p>
<p>these guys can’t serve 2 masters.  so the corporatists are the shadow masters, and the spin is on to convince us as consumers they are doing their best for us.  Where’s Ralph N. when you need him.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941191</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941191</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This thread is getting really long and takes a while to reload so this will probably be my last comment.  That looks like a good study but it is from 1997 so not exactly current.  Quality of patient care can certainly impact likelihood of readmission.  Length of stay might as in too early discharge but at the same time longer stays can result in complications and nosocomial factors.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;My thought was more along the lines of a patient with a poorly controlled condition or who is not compliant with their treatment.  Take such a patient with diabetes, COPD, or heart failure or even some combination of these.  These people can show up repeatedly at a hospital, be worth admitting, need hospital level of care, get stabilized, get cut loose, and reappear in a few days or a few weeks.  They can receive the best care in the world and it still won’t make much of a difference on whether they will need to be readmitted.  I said to you in an earlier thread I believe that 1/3 of patients are non-compliant so this is a pretty significant issue, not just one or two on the margins.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This thread is getting really long and takes a while to reload so this will probably be my last comment.  That looks like a good study but it is from 1997 so not exactly current.  Quality of patient care can certainly impact likelihood of readmission.  Length of stay might as in too early discharge but at the same time longer stays can result in complications and nosocomial factors.  </p>
<p>My thought was more along the lines of a patient with a poorly controlled condition or who is not compliant with their treatment.  Take such a patient with diabetes, COPD, or heart failure or even some combination of these.  These people can show up repeatedly at a hospital, be worth admitting, need hospital level of care, get stabilized, get cut loose, and reappear in a few days or a few weeks.  They can receive the best care in the world and it still won’t make much of a difference on whether they will need to be readmitted.  I said to you in an earlier thread I believe that 1/3 of patients are non-compliant so this is a pretty significant issue, not just one or two on the margins.</p>
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		<title>By: letsgetitdone</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941188</link>
		<dc:creator>letsgetitdone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941188</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks ralphbon. I have seen it and it reminded me that I got the 2/3 figure from the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-kuttner/the-policy-that-dare-not_b_218688.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Robert Kuttner piece&lt;/a&gt; you cited above, which you linked to in one of your replies to &lt;a href=&quot;http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/6553/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the recent Seminal thread I began&lt;/a&gt;. So, thanks for that. Until I saw Kuttner’s article I was aware that polls had shown that a majority of Americans supported single payer, but, now I think that Kuttner’s analysis is right and that it is closer to 2/3. So, Bmaz, that’s my support for the 2/3, at least until a current survey on single payer is done.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks ralphbon. I have seen it and it reminded me that I got the 2/3 figure from the <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-kuttner/the-policy-that-dare-not_b_218688.html" rel="nofollow">Robert Kuttner piece</a> you cited above, which you linked to in one of your replies to <a href="http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/6553/" rel="nofollow">the recent Seminal thread I began</a>. So, thanks for that. Until I saw Kuttner’s article I was aware that polls had shown that a majority of Americans supported single payer, but, now I think that Kuttner’s analysis is right and that it is closer to 2/3. So, Bmaz, that’s my support for the 2/3, at least until a current survey on single payer is done.</p>
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		<title>By: wesgpc</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941172</link>
		<dc:creator>wesgpc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941172</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Some special characters messed up the past of the abstract. Here is the whole thing:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The association between the quality of inpatient care and early readmission: a meta-analysis of the evidence&lt;br /&gt;
Ashton CM, Del Junco DJ, Souchek J, Wray NP, Mansyur CL.&lt;br /&gt;
Medical Care. 1997 Oct;35(10):1044-59.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;OBJECTIVES: To help resolve the current controversy over the validity of early readmission as an indicator of the quality of care, the authors critically reviewed the literature using meta-analysis to derive summary estimates of effect and evaluate inter-study heterogeneity. METHODS: The authors selected reports meeting five criteria: (1) presentation of new data on medical-surgical hospitalization of adults; (2) measurement of outcome as a person-specific readmission; (3) readmission within less than or equal to 31 days; (4) examination of some aspect of the process of inpatient care; (5) inclusion of a comparison group. One meta-analysis examined 13 comparisons of readmission rates after substandard versus normative care, another examined 9 comparisons of readmission rates after normative versus exceptional care, and the third examined all 22 comparisons together. Two authors applied inclusion criteria and extracted data on methods and findings. Two others classified studies on 11 methodological variables for the heterogeneity evaluation. RESULTS: The summary odds ratio for readmission after substandard care was 1.24 (0.99-1.57) relative to normative care; for readmission after normative care the summary odds ratio was 1.45 (0.90-2.33) relative to exceptional care. The individual odds ratios varied significantly (chi2, 21 df equal to 50.34, P equal to 0.0003). Most of the variance in study odds ratios could be explained by whether the study focused on the quality of patient care or the qualifications of patient care providers. The summary odds ratio for the 16 homogeneous comparisons focusing on the quality of patient care was 1.55 (1.25-1.92). CONCLUSIONS: Early readmission is significantly associated with the process of inpatient care. The risk of early readmission is increased by 55% when care is of relatively low quality, that is, substandard or normative instead of normative or exceptional.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;—-&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Readmission to the hospital within a few days or weeks of discharge is a common and costly occurrence. Depending on diagnosis, 5% to 30% of adult medical-surgical patients are readmitted within a month.”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some special characters messed up the past of the abstract. Here is the whole thing:</p>
<p>The association between the quality of inpatient care and early readmission: a meta-analysis of the evidence<br />
Ashton CM, Del Junco DJ, Souchek J, Wray NP, Mansyur CL.<br />
Medical Care. 1997 Oct;35(10):1044-59.</p>
<p>OBJECTIVES: To help resolve the current controversy over the validity of early readmission as an indicator of the quality of care, the authors critically reviewed the literature using meta-analysis to derive summary estimates of effect and evaluate inter-study heterogeneity. METHODS: The authors selected reports meeting five criteria: (1) presentation of new data on medical-surgical hospitalization of adults; (2) measurement of outcome as a person-specific readmission; (3) readmission within less than or equal to 31 days; (4) examination of some aspect of the process of inpatient care; (5) inclusion of a comparison group. One meta-analysis examined 13 comparisons of readmission rates after substandard versus normative care, another examined 9 comparisons of readmission rates after normative versus exceptional care, and the third examined all 22 comparisons together. Two authors applied inclusion criteria and extracted data on methods and findings. Two others classified studies on 11 methodological variables for the heterogeneity evaluation. RESULTS: The summary odds ratio for readmission after substandard care was 1.24 (0.99-1.57) relative to normative care; for readmission after normative care the summary odds ratio was 1.45 (0.90-2.33) relative to exceptional care. The individual odds ratios varied significantly (chi2, 21 df equal to 50.34, P equal to 0.0003). Most of the variance in study odds ratios could be explained by whether the study focused on the quality of patient care or the qualifications of patient care providers. The summary odds ratio for the 16 homogeneous comparisons focusing on the quality of patient care was 1.55 (1.25-1.92). CONCLUSIONS: Early readmission is significantly associated with the process of inpatient care. The risk of early readmission is increased by 55% when care is of relatively low quality, that is, substandard or normative instead of normative or exceptional.</p>
<p>—-</p>
<p>“Readmission to the hospital within a few days or weeks of discharge is a common and costly occurrence. Depending on diagnosis, 5% to 30% of adult medical-surgical patients are readmitted within a month.”</p>
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		<title>By: Helga</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941163</link>
		<dc:creator>Helga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941163</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;OH thank you, I agree Fineman was such an ass. I wrote to tell Rachel Maddow that, I am sure she cares what I think. But then he showed up on Matthew’s show and they were both asses. The two of them were whining there was no there there. I think what they were really upset with was they might have to pay a little more money, poor millionaire babies, they might have to part with a few bucks.  Too bad Matthews didn’t have to pay for his week or two in the hospital out of his pocket a year ago or so.  Wonder how he would like that. And then would Matthews and Fineman read  Prof. Gate’s daughter’s Daily Beast article, then they could get their facts straight.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-22/my-daddy-the-jailbird/?cid=hp:mainpromo1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thedailybeast.com/b&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.thedailybeast.com/b&lt;/a&gt;…..mainpromo1&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OH thank you, I agree Fineman was such an ass. I wrote to tell Rachel Maddow that, I am sure she cares what I think. But then he showed up on Matthew’s show and they were both asses. The two of them were whining there was no there there. I think what they were really upset with was they might have to pay a little more money, poor millionaire babies, they might have to part with a few bucks.  Too bad Matthews didn’t have to pay for his week or two in the hospital out of his pocket a year ago or so.  Wonder how he would like that. And then would Matthews and Fineman read  Prof. Gate’s daughter’s Daily Beast article, then they could get their facts straight.  <a href="http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-22/my-daddy-the-jailbird/?cid=hp:mainpromo1" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.thedailybeast.com/b" rel="nofollow">http://www.thedailybeast.com/b</a>…..mainpromo1</p>
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		<title>By: wesgpc</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941162</link>
		<dc:creator>wesgpc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941162</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for that reference. Here is a reference on relationship between readmission rates and quality of care. Given incentive in some cases for longer stay with Medicare, then it a complicated issue to resolve. As always in this business, the devil is in the details.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(added in edit: a good study will break down readmits into planned vs. unplanned, and look at stats by age and gender and diagnoses. I don’t have time to look into this right now in detail, but I would hope for US studies, any Medicare issues were taken into account)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;OBJECTIVES: To help resolve the current controversy over the validity of early readmission as an indicator of the quality of care, the authors critically reviewed the literature using meta-analysis to derive summary estimates of effect and evaluate inter-study heterogeneity. METHODS: The authors selected reports meeting five criteria: (1) presentation of new data on medical-surgical hospitalization of adults; (2) measurement of outcome as a person-specific readmission; (3) readmission within 
—-&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Readmission to the hospital within a few days or weeks of discharge is a common and costly occurrence. Depending on diagnosis, 5% to 30% of adult medical-surgical patients are readmitted within a month.” (in edit: I think this is range for US hospitals)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that reference. Here is a reference on relationship between readmission rates and quality of care. Given incentive in some cases for longer stay with Medicare, then it a complicated issue to resolve. As always in this business, the devil is in the details.</p>
<p>(added in edit: a good study will break down readmits into planned vs. unplanned, and look at stats by age and gender and diagnoses. I don’t have time to look into this right now in detail, but I would hope for US studies, any Medicare issues were taken into account)</p>
<p>OBJECTIVES: To help resolve the current controversy over the validity of early readmission as an indicator of the quality of care, the authors critically reviewed the literature using meta-analysis to derive summary estimates of effect and evaluate inter-study heterogeneity. METHODS: The authors selected reports meeting five criteria: (1) presentation of new data on medical-surgical hospitalization of adults; (2) measurement of outcome as a person-specific readmission; (3) readmission within<br />
—-</p>
<p>“Readmission to the hospital within a few days or weeks of discharge is a common and costly occurrence. Depending on diagnosis, 5% to 30% of adult medical-surgical patients are readmitted within a month.” (in edit: I think this is range for US hospitals)</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941149</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941149</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Simply put, a Medicare beneficiary is eligible for the extended care benefit only if he or she has been an inpatient in an acute care hospital for 3 consecutive calendar days. The days are counted by the number of days the patient is on the midnight census.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nursingcenter.com/prodev/ce_article.asp?tid=765774&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.nursingcenter.com/p.....tid=765774&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Basically, if you can keep a patient in the hospital per the “3 midnight” rule, they are eligible for the extended care benefit once they leave.  This is a rule that can place physicians in conflict with hospitals.  The hospital gets the same payment per the DRG whether it is a one day or 3 day stay (my understanding) so they have an incentive to discharge the patient as soon as possible.  The physician on the other hand may try to keep the patient in the hospital so that he/she can qualify for the benefit, i.e. access to skilled nursing which the physician feels is needed.  Hope this helps.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Simply put, a Medicare beneficiary is eligible for the extended care benefit only if he or she has been an inpatient in an acute care hospital for 3 consecutive calendar days. The days are counted by the number of days the patient is on the midnight census.</p>
</blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.nursingcenter.com/prodev/ce_article.asp?tid=765774" rel="nofollow">http://www.nursingcenter.com/p&#8230;..tid=765774</a></p>
<p>Basically, if you can keep a patient in the hospital per the “3 midnight” rule, they are eligible for the extended care benefit once they leave.  This is a rule that can place physicians in conflict with hospitals.  The hospital gets the same payment per the DRG whether it is a one day or 3 day stay (my understanding) so they have an incentive to discharge the patient as soon as possible.  The physician on the other hand may try to keep the patient in the hospital so that he/she can qualify for the benefit, i.e. access to skilled nursing which the physician feels is needed.  Hope this helps.</p>
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		<title>By: ralphbon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941146</link>
		<dc:creator>ralphbon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 02:48:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941146</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;See my response to bmaz a smidge upthread.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See my response to bmaz a smidge upthread.</p>
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		<title>By: letsgetitdone</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941144</link>
		<dc:creator>letsgetitdone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 02:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941144</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Hi Bmaz, thanks for the reply. I saw the figure today in an article I’m trying to retrieve now. The claim made was that older surveys, not current, because the polling organizations are supposedly polling public option and not single payer now, had consistently show between 60% and 2/3 support for single payer. The current figure for public option I’ve seen recently is 76% or 3/4, even higher than the previous 2/3 figure for single payer. I’ll continue to search for the reference and provide you another reply fairly soon. I’m sure my memory hasn’t failed me here. It’s usually very good on things like this. Numbers tend to stick in my head.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bmaz, thanks for the reply. I saw the figure today in an article I’m trying to retrieve now. The claim made was that older surveys, not current, because the polling organizations are supposedly polling public option and not single payer now, had consistently show between 60% and 2/3 support for single payer. The current figure for public option I’ve seen recently is 76% or 3/4, even higher than the previous 2/3 figure for single payer. I’ll continue to search for the reference and provide you another reply fairly soon. I’m sure my memory hasn’t failed me here. It’s usually very good on things like this. Numbers tend to stick in my head.</p>
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		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941138</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 02:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/22/liveblogging-the-obama-health-care-presser-cost-control-up-front-politics-pushed-aside/#comment-1941138</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;He may mean that the private insurers would be in price competition with the less expensive public system, and some of the effects that that would be likely to have would be (1) to force the private insurers to increase internal efficiency, (2) to  reduce the degree of profit-taking, and (3) to reduce any unnecessary payments to providers, including rooting out fraud.  Or, since I am not him, he might mean something totally different.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He may mean that the private insurers would be in price competition with the less expensive public system, and some of the effects that that would be likely to have would be (1) to force the private insurers to increase internal efficiency, (2) to  reduce the degree of profit-taking, and (3) to reduce any unnecessary payments to providers, including rooting out fraud.  Or, since I am not him, he might mean something totally different.</p>
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