[Welcome Scott E. Page, and Host, Cosma Shalizi - bev]
The Difference: How the Power of Diversity Creates Better Groups, Firms, Schools, and Societies
Scott Page is a professor of political science and economics at the University of Michigan, where he’s also the associate director of the Center for the Study of Complex Systems, and external faculty at the Santa Fe Institute. (Disclosure: I worked for Scott when I was a post-doctoral fellow at the Center, and I’m also external faculty at SFI, so take my enthusiasm with salt to taste.) Scott’s written lots of academic papers, and co-written a textbook, but The Difference is, well, different. It’s a serious, but also playful, look at the power and virtues of diversity when it comes to solving difficult problems. It draws together many insights from many different academic disciplines, without requiring any special knowledge of its readers, just willingness to stretch their minds a little.
All very well, you say, but it’s a lot more abstract than most books which show up here: why should you spend your time reading about heuristics and preference aggregation and so forth? For two reasons: to help us persuade others, and to acquire tools for us to use ourselves.
Most progressives have embraced diversity as a value, but there seem to be competing considerations. A common objection — my guess is it’s even often sincere — is that we shouldn’t care how diverse the people who do X are, but just how good they are at X. If those who have discovered and developed their abilities to do X happen to be mostly privileged, that’s just part of what "privilege" means, and the thing to worry about is unfair privilege, not lack of diversity. This is a general objection, and it calls for an equally general, that means abstract, rebuttal.
Implicitly, the objection assumes that there’s a best way to do X, that there’s One Right Answer, and that the best results, the closest approach to the optimum, will always come from the person who’s best at the job. Some advocates of diversity deny the first premise, the One Right Answer bit. This leads to tedious arguments about relativism and other reminders of the unfun parts of the 1990s. Page doesn’t go there; instead he shows that the other premise is wrong, because it ignores complexity.
The problems we face in the real world are hard. There are always an immense array of variables which might be relevant, and an at least equally huge number of ways we might respond to them, plus overlapping constraints on our actions. Moves which seem to help part of the problem typically screw up others, because everything is interdependent, everything is connected to everything else. Even when problems are (more or less artificially) tidied up into well-defined mathematical tasks of locate-the-optimum, it is, generically, quite intractable to actually find that One Best Answer.
The Difference draws on about half a century of research into how to deal with complex, intractable problems. Faced with an overwhelming array of considerations that could be relevant, people assume perspectives from which some variables are visible and the rest are hidden. Within those perspectives, they apply heuristics, approximate rules for getting from where you are now to someplace that is usually better, though not guaranteed to be the best. A heuristic for a problem will do better or worse on different instances of the problem, and different heuristics will do better or worse on the same instance. One heuristic may do better than another on most instances, which makes the former stronger; a weak heuristic does only a little better, on average, than a random guess.
The key insight is that a single strong heuristic will do worse than a collective of individually weak but diverse heuristics. The problems are too hard for any one heuristic to solve perfectly, but the diverse heuristics can, so to speak, cover each others’ weaknesses and help each other out when they get stuck; a single strong heuristic can’t. A collection of diverse strong heuristics would be even better, but the strong heuristics for a problem tend to be similar to each other, so a group of them lacks diversity. In problem solving and prediction, diversity is exactly as important as individual ability.
This is the answer to "why do we need diverse X-ers instead of just the best X-ers?": if there’s going to be one person who does X and they’ll solve all their problems by their lonesome, sure, go for the one who’s individually best at it, the one with the strongest heuristics. Meanwhile, on Planet Earth, everyone works in teams and groups and networks, and even if all you want is the very best job of X-ing possible, you have no reason to ignore diversity and every reason to seek it out, foster it, and make sure that all voices are heard and aren’t just token presences.
I doubt it’s escaped the reader that the problems facing progressives (how to we get universal health care? how do we keep our country from getting into more stupid wars?) are full of the kind of difficulty and complexity I described. Which means it’s no good hoping for an inspired leader to figure out how to do them, or even a small clique of super-geniuses… There are lots of us, from many backgrounds, and we’re self-selected to agree, mostly, on what we want to happen. So there should ways to use our internal diversity, our range of perspectives and approaches, to better accomplish progressive goals. But before we can do that we need to understand how and when diversity improves problem-solving capacity, and we really need to think about the ways in which we can bring that diversity to bear on our common problems — which is the whole "better societies" part of the book.
OK, with that, let me open up the comments.



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About Firedoglake
Scott, Welcome to the Lake.
Cosma, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
It’s good to be here
Scott,
Thanks for being here today.
Any comment on the introduction by Cosma?
A question for Scott to kick things off:You make a really strong case for the value of cognitive diversity, but what we actually have as a policy option is promoting social diversity, increasing the representation of different socially-recognized groups. How strong is the connection between these two, really? How would you respond to someone who said that if we want cognitive diversity, we should figure out ways of promoting that directly, and worry about social diversity, if at all, as a matter of justice, not efficiency? (Let me add that I get some version of this question basically every time I tell people about the book.)
Welcome to Firedoglake – great to have you here!
Welcome to FDL this afternoon Scott and Cosma.
Scott, I have not had an opportunity to read your book so figure me if my question is answered somewhere within it.
Isn’t social diversity just an aspect of cognitive diversity? That is, the two are compatible rather than competing aspects?
Or am I an idiot?
Hi We are kind of diverse at the Lake but we also fight allot how does that effect our ability to solve problems. Sometimes I think we follow the Socratic Method…as practiced by Moe, Larry and Curly.
Let me go at Cosma’s question first and see if that answers dakine01 as well.
I have been thinking a lot about progressives communicating in terms of the Myers Briggs configuration of temperaments and communication. The four basic groupings: feelers, thinkers, intuiters and sensers. Does your analysis touch on anything of this realm?
How about the 80/20 Pareto rule that can be applied to many scenarios. 80% of wealth goes to 20% of the people, 20% goes to 80% (this becoming even more diluted), 80% of the people at work do 20% of the work and vice versa. 20% of your to-do list gives you 80% satisfaction if it is the true priorities. 20% of the clothes in your closet you wear 80% of the time and vice versa.
The extent of a correlative or causal relationship between identity diversity and cognitive diversity is an empirical question. In some domains –deciding on a health care policy, crafting an advertising plan — there’s probably a lot of correlation. For a math problem, the correlation may be relatively weak.
As to whether we should separate efficiency and justice — I wish it were that simple. Our ability to leverage or cognitive abilities and differences depends on how we treat one another. If the culture isn’t big on social justice, I’m not sure how we tap into our differences effectively
As a technical note, there is a “Reply” button in the lower right corner of each comment.
If you click the “Reply” it will ID the comment and commenter to whom you are replying
That way, everyone can follow the “conversation”
To the question that “we fight a lot” not all fighting is bad!
If we fight over ends — who gets the West Bank — we won’t get anywhere. If we disagree over means to a common ends (lowering health care costs), the results might be good.
Aah!! thanks
But, don’t the theorems rest on the assumption that people with different heuristics and even different perspectives have no trouble communicating with each other? In reality, this often seems not to be the case, to put it mildly. How robust are your results to this kind of thing?
Just how diverse is Sotomayor I support her completely but her resume reads like George Bush’s or Judge Alito’s but better and as an immigrant I assume she never got a Gentleman’s C.
Just how diverse can you get and still be a lawyer?
” Sotomayor graduated with an A.B., summa cum laude, from Princeton University in 1976 and received her J.D. from Yale Law School in 1979, where she was an editor at the Yale Law Journal. She was an advocate for the hiring of Latino faculty at both schools. She worked as an Assistant District Attorney in New York for five years before entering private practice in 1984. She played an active role on the boards of directors for the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund, the State of New York Mortgage Agency, and the New York City Campaign Finance Board. Sotomayor was nominated to the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York by President George H. W. Bush in 1991, and her nomination was confirmed in 1992. ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Sotomayor
The Myers Briggs test and the “Big 5″ test measure personality differences. They’re very helpful diagnostic tools for leaders and managers. They help a leader frame tasks — one person might want explicit instructions, another may want a vague outline. I often wish I had MB scores for all my undergrads so that I knew how to write assignments better!!!
My work focuses more on how people frame problems and how they go about trying to solve or predict them. It wouldn’t be unfair to say that I assume away personality conflict and show how if we all got along, we’d all do really really well. Failure to recognize personality type differences can result in groups not performing.
As to the 80/20 rule. Kate Anderson, a graduate student at Michigan in Complex Systems and Economics has some cool new work that shows that the returns to adding skills are “supermodular” (that means roughly that having four skills is better than twice as good as having two skills. This gets you part way to something like 80/20 .
Well, this is a swell book that provides many new arguments in the diversity toolkit. I’ve worked so long in environments that value diversity for its own sake that I forget there are counterarguments still. Then Rachel Maddow ask Pat Buchanan on her show, and I’m reminded all over again.
The idea that problems are better solved with multiple approaches seems intuitive; we see so many problems solved poorly with lots and lots of data but a paucity of approaches because people fear projecting their different view into the discussion.
How do you think organizations, movements, companies, and political parties can best use your scientific arguments to better validate diverse thinking and promote social diversity within our groups?
Thanks for chatting today about your book (and great intro, also).
Maybe you should stay or just pop in at random and check out how our fights are and how we can be more constructive.
Your thoughts would be interesting
I don’t know Judge Sotomayor. From what I’ve read of her, she seems like she’ll add quite a bit of diversity to the court. Why do I say that — well she grew up poor, she’s known what it’s like to be a minority, she’s had lots of experience with white collar crime, and she’s single. Unlike Souter, she’s more urban. I think Souter’s rural sensibility will be missed. I try to look at these judges as long lists of experiences and attributes. Her list isn’t “way out there” by any stretch of the imagination, but she’ll bring some different viewpoints to the court. Again, I don’t think we can emphasis enough the fact she grew up poor in a rough neighborhood — that can’t be washed away in 8 terms at Princeton. I friend told me that when he went to Princeton, he learned that “summer” was a VERB. I’m sure she did too!
Thanks, Scott.
Wasn’t “synergy” the old buzz word for better problem solving approaches way back when?
Group-think can be so dangerous. Look at the hells it got us into with Bushco.
Re “Just how diverse can you get and still be a lawyer?”, that’s a pretty important and tricky question. A lot of professional education is about learning to think in a certain way – like a lawyer or a surgeon or an economist (or a statistician), which means learning some heuristics and perspectives and adopting them all the time. And some of this is necessary – you really don’t want me advising your lawyer about anything – but it does limit the diversity of the profession. And there’s only so much room for differences in a team of nine people…
I’m proving baseline results with no communication error. As you add error, it both helps and hurts. I don’t think the communication costs are that cumbersome. White males miscommunicate with one another as well. Further, in many cases, oracles exist. You can just go test solutions — this is true with a lot of computer programming. In those cases, you don’t need communication.
We should always remember, though, that there is nothing magic about the number NINE. As society diversifies and values diversity in group organization, perhaps there is a time when nine people simply are no longer enough to handle the workload and provide POV. Expanding SCOTUS to 13 is always a possibility.
Thanks! When I talk with organizations, one of the first things I toss out is problem identification. What is it that you’re doing? How can diversity help in theory? How would you realize that advantage in practice. Example, if you have to load trucks, there just isn’t much room for diversity to help. If you have to figure out how to get weight off airplanes to lower full costs, then diversity can bring lots of perspectives — baggage handlers, flight attendants, passengers of every type, etc… might all bring different perspective and help save fuel. (BTW, Northwest Airlines did this — brought in diverse people — and they saved a lot of fuel)
Cosma, I agree — but wouldn’t we benefit from having far more diverse set of clerks?? I think that the justices should increase their number of clerks to include social scientists, ethicists, etc…
If Doctor Smith is going to operate on my brain, I don’t care about Smith’s gender, race, voting record.
Just one thing.
So how does diversity increase my chances with Dr. Smith?
Roosevelt tried that and got hammered!!! (but he was trying to stack the court!) I think it’s an interesting question to ponder — how big should the SCOTUS
Excuse me if I am trying to pull too many threads together with this question.
A number of years ago, as part of a community group, I attended some interesting “diversity” training that was provided to us by Sandia National Lab. It was interesting. They seemed to have really bought into the kind of process you describe.
I notice that SFI was founded by LANL folk, some of whom are familiar to me.
Are you aware if the efforts of SFI have had any impact on LANL or SNL? I’m curious because SNL really put effort into outreach with the local community and was really interested in promoting public/private collaboration, at least as far as business/contracts related to R and D. They were really promoting diversity as a means to a different end (albeit with capitalistic intentions via Bechtel or whomever was their corporate partner. . .) or so it seemed from my experience.
What I am really interested in understanding is whether any of this sort of diversity can lead to a change in the actual work done at LANL, because we are looking at the possibility that our President is now interested in moving away from nuclear weapons proliferation and towards new energy.
Do you have any sense that the culture of LANL could be changing?
Can you use your approach to judge groups solving problems or accomplishing tasks. Take the Sotomayor and Alito confirmation hearings Sonia is as referenced above very qualified.
The Senate GOP tried to take her apart as a racist they failed their approach seemed uncoordinated, illogical and confused.
The Democrats handling of Supreme Court Head Judge Alito who actually was a racist seemed like they threw the game to me.
Are large groups of white guys that bad at organizing. Is the way the group structure itself is set up the problem. Or are they both throwing the game and or incompetent.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/c…..ntroversy/
Another question for Scott: to what extent does our educational system decrease valuable cognitive diversity? At the level of casual observation, the whole “go to the right high school to get in to an elite university so you can get a professional degree from another elite university” syndrome seems like a recipe for wiping out a lot of potential diversity in experience and skills.
I have to say, because there is “a”, does not mean not “b” is incorrect
that fact that those who were in a particular class can out perform those not from that class does not at all argue against creating that diversity SINCE the diversity will strengthen the task “in the long run”
the argument used in the quote is the same failed argument mba’s use when they look for the best bottom line this quarter rather then the best bottom line for the overall health of an industry
If I am taught how to drive a car because I am wealthy that does not mean I should be the only one who gets a job driving cars, it means more people should be taught it does not mean fewer people should benefit
I’ll stop hounding you about the temperament thing, but approaching problems from one side of the brain literally or the other matters, right? The old “some people see the forest but ot the trees, etc.” others see the trees but not the forest. They need each other sometimes, but can drive each other nuts some times collaborating.
Also degrees of “emotional intelligence” (a/k/a empathy?) though I never read that book.
You are correct! However, in brain surgery you typically have a team. And you probably want a team that has a breadth of experiences. In brain surgery or in theoretical physics, there’s a pretty high bar just to be able to play in that sandbox. You want people above the bar, and then you want people with lots of diverse practice. In many settings, including perhaps brain surgery, a person’s social identity may influence the set of experiences. For example, women and minorities often choose different subspecialties and different hospitals — this would give them a diverse set of experiences.
down to the basics – what is social diversity and what is cognitive diversity?
Unless Dr. Smith is doing an emergency operation on you in the field with no one to assist (in which case, good luck to you both), they’re going to be part of a team which is going to have to solve a lot of problems, starting with figuring out what’s wrong with you and how best to solve it. Dr. Smith may be a genius with the scalpel, but will still do better if the other members of the team know different things. Beyond that, there’s the larger biomedical community which Dr. Smith relies on to expand knowledge and provide tools, where again diversity benefits you.
I agree; the quote was me setting up a position I don’t agree with.
I”m more familiar with SNL than LANL (I realize that I’m a huge geek when SNL means Sandia and not Saturday Night Live!!) I think SNL realizes (correctly) that its ranks are filled with motivated, bright people who have a lot to add to the world and that they can add value in a lot of areas. I think SNL and LANL will shift some of their work as the result of new gov’t programs.
Scot have you seen FireDogLake’s visitor stats (I assume we have some) just how diverse racially, economically, and from job experience are we?
Also what other factors in case I missed any should be used to judge the diversity of a group?
LibbyLiberal @ 9 mentioned the Myers Briggs tests assuming that or any other kind of test was available which ones would you like to know to better judge diversity.
I’m with you on whole EQ thing and left brain right brain. I’ve been at meetings where people where colored buttons identifying them as left or right brain. Some organizations are highly skewed towards right (resp. left) brained people. It totally matters — it’s just not what I work on.
Another way to get more diversity on the Supreme Court would be to keep it to nine justices, but have them drawn randomly from a larger pool, like jury duty.
Can you use your computer model in reverse lets assume a problem and several possible known solutions then figure out the intelligence and the steps right or wrong that it would take to get to that solution.
What if a certain group for example never admitted failure how would that skew the results?
Cognitive diversity is the range of heuristics, perspectives etc. – mental tools, in short – that the members of a group have. The social diversity of the group is the range of its members identities. It’s the difference between “what do you all know?” and “who are you all?”
Jim March has some wonderful work on how the educational system beats the creativity out of kids. If you do something cool and new, then with some probability your teacher or professor will give you a low grade and that will hurt your future chances. As a result, you end up with the so called “organized” children who never make mistakes or take chances, getting into the best schools. I’m sure you have this same experience, you admit people to graduate school and while some are amazing, others are real duds. I think we have so many duds because the current reward system squelches difference
thanks.
Scott can correct me if I’m wrong, but my recollection of the model is that this would cause a lot of trouble (unsurprisingly).
You could run a version of the model in reverse but there would be MANY ways to get to the optimal solution and an abundance of ways to get to a really good solutions. If the group doesn’t recognize which solutions improve on the status quo, then they’ll never get anywhere except by chance
Right – when I wrote that I was particularly thinking of some students who do amazingly well on exams and homework, but only that (at least in my interactions with them), and wondering how many of them went on to work in banks…
Thank you, Scott. I see SNL and LANL as two fairly different animals at this point. SNL seemed to embrace the change to public/private partnership.
With LANL it seemed more of a forced marriage. LANL came with a big dowry and a bad attitude. Or so it seems to me. They sure do love them some weapons of mass destruction.
We can always hope for change.
I thought the whole purpose of elite schools except for the smart worker bees was to weed out the poor and give the rich elite a chance to meet and form the social networks they need to run the country.
A place where Reverse Darwinism can breed and Crony Capitalism greased by Gentlmens C’s diplomas can take root.
I haven’t looked at firedog’s stats. Diversity can be measured in lots of ways. But I tend to look at it as contingent on a project or a task. Suppose our task is to unpack Obama’s budget proposal. Diversity would then mean differences in work experience, life experience, training, fundamental values, awareness of social groups, frameworks for social policy, etc..
Does Jim March have a book? This sounds interesting.
Maybe the school where I teach isn’t elite enough, but I’ve never seen a Gentleman’s C. I have seen a lot of “organization kids”, though…
There’s an amazing book by Lave and March called “An introduction to modeling in the Social Sciences” I used to use it in my undergraduate modeling course. He uses simple models to explain some really cool stuff.
You might be interested in Jeff Goodell’s profile of Steven Chu in (of all places) Rolling Stone; there’s a (big) PDF copy here. My sense is that LANL will change what it’s doing when we pry its budget from X division’s cold, dead fingers. (This view is entirely my own and should not be attributed to any of my friends working “on the hill” now or in the past.)
A common theme that runs through or beneath several of the questions is the tradeoff between “ability” and “diversity.” I think that most organizations think of getting high ability people (students, employees, whatever) and then trying to make sure that the group is “diverse” in the social identity sense. I’m not sure that an approach in which you sought out diversity first and worried about diversity second wouldn’t be better. For colleges and universities this would be difficult to pull off — the metrics on the admissions ends hard data — GPA, ACT, SAT, etc.
I suspect that the current educational system was set up by people who were scared by how the Sputnik generation turned out. Teaching people to think meant that they asked too many embarrassing questions, so the solution apparently was to teach them to not think.
Sounds like a good description of Bush’s economic policy war policy heck everything Group think led by an Alpha Chimp who can’t admit mistakes a Cabinet of like minded, similar experience, schools, upbringings Yes Men who implement decisions but prizing loyalty never question them.
Its no wonder at the Lake we have been saying for years that Bush was wrong about everything.
I read part of your book and I kept flashing to many of our criticisms of Bush.
Assuming the second “diversity” was really “ability”: what about the Texas plan (which ended recently) of admitting the top 1/8th (I think it was) of every high school class to the public university system?
You have to admit that the second strategy had worked well for thousands of years.
Steve Ricks was just on NPR talking about how global travelling was a political activity. It makes you wiser … not always happier with what you learn, but wiser.
When everyone agrees, there are only two possibilities — either the task was simple and we wasted time having a meeting or we didn’t have any MEANINGFUL differences of opinion in the room. I’m intrigued by the decisions made by Bush II. The full story has to be more complex. I think he did himself a disservice by being disconnected from much of America.
It works this way in third world countries, too. The diversity happens with “attractive” worker bees (maids, prostitutes, etc) who come into contact with the elites and then marry into the ruling class. This is discouraged, of course.
It totally explains Sarah Palin, for example. If she were not “attractive” there is no way she would be in the picture. But attractiveness contributes significantly to the diversity pot, under certain circumstances.
Maybe it’s the statistician in me, but I am warming to the idea of randomization as a way of introducing diversity. Get together a pool of everyone who meets some minimal qualifications and then select those number needed completely at random. We do already do this for juries, precisely so that part of the legal system is (more or less) representative of the community and brings its life experience to bear; why not do it more?
The sentiment of the Texas plan was well placed but it relied on GPA alone. This would have created huge incentives for kids not to take interesting classes in high school or to attempt risky projects or answers. By drawing from more schools, you get more diversity, but (alas again) you encourage kids to be safe and uninteresting.
But but but – what about all that time on his ranch in Crawford?
Agreed; but this just makes me think even better of randomization, since it’s impossible to game.
Darn good question. I’m a huge fan of randomization plus information and skin in the game. You need knowledgeable, diverse, incentivized people. How do you get it — randomization!!! By the way, all of those tedious committee assignments, they’re random, but there’s little incentive to do well. (in fact, there may be incentive to do poorly)
Scott, Cosma hmm whats worse kids who don’t take chances and obey as workers or guys like Bush who can’t admit mistakes getting Harvard MBA’s they don’t earn (hence the Gentlemens C’s )
When empires decline do we over produce Nero’s who don’t learn from their mistakes and obedient workers who don’t take chances?
Can your computer models predict why assuming that this is what is in fact happening.
“The reward for a job well done is another job to do”, as the saying goes.
And like Obama and Edward (two guys who came from outside the ruling class) are ugly? You’ve got to go back to LBJ (who wasn’t elected) to get a president who wasn’t handsome. (We only see Nixon as unattractive — but he was a good looking man as well.)
Coming back around to the schools question: American education is actually pretty decentralized compared to many other countries (say, France, with the Grandes Écoles), so one might expect more cognitive diversity among American elites than those of other countries. Is anything actually known about this?
In high school a lot of college bound kids took blow off classes to boost their GPA the same classes the foot ball team took to maintain athletic eligibility Foods, Reading,.
I never got the talk from the guidance counselor for college so I took Art, Metal, Auto shop Chemistry (did not do well) I got C’s it was interesting.
But I went to community college in a sense colleges do select for boring.
Computer models like those that Blake LeBaron has done on artificial stock markets can produce diversity breakdowns that lead to bubbles (and then crashes). I’m not sure to what extent this insight translates to the broader context. I do think though that you had people in the recent home mortgage crises who were following others who were making money and didn’t see at all how they were contributing to a system destined to collapse under its own weight.
perhaps slow and different wins the race (at least Cosma and I hope it does!!!)
Scott, I think brogthus was saying that being attractive helps people who are not born into the elite rise in status. Which would imply that those who succeed in doing so are unusually attractive. So, yeah: this is one way in which Obama resembles Palin (words I certainly never thought to write…).
I really think a huge part of the mortgage bubble was driven by manipulating people who weren’t in a position to know better. When my wife and I bought a house in 2006, there was all kinds of pressure and “advice” from all involved to get the biggest and most ridiculous mortgage possible. If we hadn’t been raised by people who (a) knew what they were doing with money and (b) made sure their kids did too, God only knows where we’d be now.
Not just France (where everyone learns the same lesson each day) but also Korea, Japan, etc… Historically, the French have had low rates of entrepreneurship but I’m not sure which feeds what. Geert Hofstede has these cultural measures (dimensions). One tracks with tolerance for risk. My crude recall of those estimates suggest that collective risk lovingness correlates with more open educational systems. But which is the cart, which is the horse. Even within countries, people will say Brown, CMU, Berkely, Michigan, and Caltech students are likely to be “wackier” than Princeton or Harvard students. Probably true, but ain’t that just sorting. Does CMU make people more interesting or do more interesting kids go to CMU
… which is to say, the fact that the real estate/finance industry had many different people making lots of diverse contributions to the problem of ripping off customers made it more effective, but not in a good way.
Can your models search for the complexity because this does sound interesting.
I’m not suggesting Bush was complex I am suggesting competing interests intrigue the Corporate wing of the GOP wants one thing the Fundy wing wants another Bush was born into one group and born again into the other both groups don’t get along.
These two reinforce the “way it works.” Of course, attractiveness PLUS brains (Obama, Edwards) is certainly preferable to attractive MINUS brains, exhibit: Sarah Palin. It is only through Plus Brains that the marriage into the ruling class is possible. Attractive progeny may come from attractive marriage, and the ruling class has the opportunity to get the most attractive, as they can “select” from the largest and most diverse pool, even if it includes the poor, who are not exempt from either brains or beauty, and sometimes excel at both.
Here’s my quick take on the correlates with travel: Wisdom +, Happiness -, Weight +++, fatigue ++, depth +, sense of hipness —
We could answer this by randomly assigning switching some fraction of next years admitted class at CMU and at Princeton. If hijinx ensue at Princeton but we become more boring, then we’re looking at a selection effect.
I think you mean Rick Steves.
I agree. At least two groups had agendas.
Very good question also do the different ways each country treats their minorities result in minorities that are more diverse, more or less risk takers, at odds with the ruling power?
And of course the Obamas are Very Attractive, and they also are part of the attractive plus brains part of moving into the ruling class. It was not just oratorical finesse that led to the WH.
Sarah Palin got to the majors only on her looks. Not sure that will be able to keep her there.
This sort of experiment would be telling but alas we cannot do it. However, it happens at the faculty level all the time. I know lots of people at other places who are supposed to be at Princeton but randomly got placed someplace else. All the evidence suggests that these boring people who should have been at Princeton become bitter at the other places. :)
Well, at least three; the neoconservative wing seemed mostly interested in foreign policy, and events inside the US as a means to that end.
(And may I just add: I deeply resent the way this administration makes me feel like a nutbar conspiracy theorist.”.)
Ezra Klein (I think it was him) came up with a great idea — instead of randomly picking people, have everybody pick someone they know who would do a good job/have good judgement.
That is indeed something it would be good to know more about. Again, France would make an interesting comparison case: as a matter of policy, they don’t break down official statistics by race, there’s no race-based affirmative action, etc. (This is, as I understand it, a matter of small-r republican ideology: all citizens of the republic are equal, so why record any of this?)
I was born in what was strong Palin country (Western Michigan). I think it was more “moxie” than looks. She talked tough in straightforward language. There was an article in either Science or Scientific American in which people were asked which candidate looked more “trustworthy” ( I think that was the word) and those candidates were more likely to win. Palin was “like” the people where I grew up. She was “tough” and “trustworthy”
They didn’t care that she wasn’t an intellectual. Was she less articulate than Bush? The difference is that I believe Bush has a pretty big engine up there (and the military IQ tests where he trounced Kerry back this up). He just chooses not to dwell on stuff. (oops)
Klein has, I suspect, never been the one person who couldn’t make it to a meeting.
Leo Hurwicz, who won the Nobel Prize in Economics, had a paper that put forward this idea. He called it the Kingmaker Rule. He showed that this was better than majority rule if the world had THREE people!!
well formulated! :)
Slow No! talent unrecognized perhaps:) Cripes I at least am an over cafinated type in fact what if you add Blinkers to a group how do they skew things I think I tend to blink on a lot of subjects on the various topics presented at at FireDogLake.
Blinkers like Cramer on the business channel tend not to have better long term records predicting than Diverse Groups right?
But what if we are in a group (but don’t lead) do we still skew things?
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
Scott, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us and discussing your new book and diversity.
Cosma, Thank you very much for Hosting this Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Scott’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
I think that France may rethink this policy. It prevents them from having any understanding empirically of the extent of discrimination.
What formed your reasoning on that? Anything else can you guess about the groups besides they seemed to have equal power and access to the President’s ear in the beginning?
Yesterday’s Book Salon on “The Death of Why?” seems to dovetail a lot with the discussion here today. Broadly stated (but clearly not 100% true), students now just don’t have the skills to ask good questions. Is this because they are uninterested or because they have not been given the tools to ask (or answer) good questions?
It is interesting that Scott and Cosma both state that there are “issues” with the “quality” of students, even in the elite “mix.”
This is a very interesting discussion. Thank you for coming today!
Jon Elster has written about the usefulness of random selection. The big advantage is that it’s less of a burden on the losers. He gives the example of parents trying to adopt: all the potential parents have been deemed good by the adoption agency and the agency selects parents at random. If the adoption agency selected the absolute best parents it would be crushing for the losers (who are really pretty nice people).
If you applied this to elite admissions (top colleges, med school) you’d set the bar realistically (you must be at least this smart to receive this education) and select the people who get in at random. So Harvard might accept 8,000 but only admit 2,000. This kind of system makes the randomness caused by the problems of identifying the best candidates explicit.
Cosma,
Thanks!! There’s a great book by Phil Tetlock showing that hedgehogs (people who have a one track mind) are awful at predicting the future (slightly worse than random) but hedgehogs (people who are diverse) do pretty well. I also want to plug a course I just did for The Teaching Company called “understanding complexity” It’s on sale fo 75% off for the next two weeks!!!
Gladwell has a great take on this in “Outliers” where he talks about the “brick test” You ask kids how many uses they can think of for a brick. We don’t test for that kind of stuff so our kids lack creativity.
Thank you guys and Bev! Opened my mind.
My opinion is just a guess, but I know the religious right LOVED Bush and believe he was beholden to them and at the same time he had all of these old time conservatives — Rummy and Cheney — running the store
Yes; but I should make clear that (at least on my side) this is an anecdotal impression based on my experience as a teacher, not any sort of deeply researched conclusion. For all I know, the mix of students I currently get is as good as it’s possible to get.
Thank you all — I”m out (for Pizza with my boys in 30 seconds!)
Thanks, Bev, for doing all of the actual work!
I once asked some kids what color noise was. The biggest achiever in the group became near homicidal he was so very confused, not understanding why the other kids got it and were so animated.
Great talk please come by anytime
Same with you very good questions and answers just come by and hop on an interesting thread.
Certainly when I’ve been on admissions committees I’ve always been tempted to use the “throw all the applications down the stairs and keep the ones which fall face up” method. Even if you are trying to pick “the best”, past a certain point it seems incredible that you’re noticing real differences in quality and not just noise…
An advantage of randomization (from some perspectives) would be that it should make people less competitive.
I will; “long-time lurker, first-time poster”.
Now I feel like a kid who thinks Van Halen wrote “You Really Got Me.”
Yes, pretty much the conclusion that we may come to if it is true that “our students is not learning” how to ask or answer questions.
Some rich people wish to dominate they do not want challenging wives strong minds and or wills.
Also many women act dumb in highschool because they want dates.
I agree your way is a way for people to move up. But for people concerned with power foremost Authoritarian GOPers they select for looks and if they can obedience less will an intelligence.
Reverse Darwinism is about self selecting downward as well as not letting the elite sink.
I do wonder just how good IQ tests really are if Bush did well a reading disability is hinted at in the Kitty Kelly Biography if anything should that not lower his score?
Or should I suspect cheating was a high IQ score needed to be a pilot?
Or maybe with a draft and everyone taking the test it was fashionable?
Someday I should take an IQ test.
You do seem familiar with the culture :)