Andrea, Welcome back to the Lake.

Mark, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.

I’m glad to be here.

Yes, let’s proceed.

As an opening question, Andrea, can you tell us about the most significant issue in your life on which you have changed your mind?

Mark

Thanks for writing this interesting book. How long had you thought about it first?

Welcome to Firedoglake – glad you could join us today!

Well, Mark. I’m not sure if it’s one issue or another. When I was younger, I definitely had a different attitude towards government and our society. If you can believe it, and many of my progressive friends won’t, I was a big Ayn Rand fan!

I believed what she wrote – that it was up to all of us individually to make our mark. I think it was typical teenage rebellion. But it also informed my politics. Through some study and exposure and life experience, my views about how each of us is able to reach out potential changed, and the critical role that our civil society plays in facilitating that evolved.

What can parents do to counteract the lack of Why? in schools? It’s not as bad(in our experience)in the earlier grades,but in middle and high school it’s noticable. Sadly,there also seems to be peer pressure to be a nitwit.

Ah, my brother, who loves Atlas Shrugged, would love it.

In the book, you offer two examples from media to demonstrate the
decay of “why,” the Lou Dobbs Show and America’s Town Meeting of the
Air.

What other examples would you like to highlight?

I was a big Atlas Shrugged fan (thankfully I changed my mind on the tattoo of the book cover).

Is it worth explaining a bit about the America’s Town Meeting of the Air for folks who haven’t yet read the book?

you forgot parents in your statments about teens not caring about gov.

nations go through stages and we are in a decline stage and cannot be stopped.

“The first stage moves from bondage to spiritual faith. The second from spiritual faith to great courage. The third stage moves from great courage to liberty. The fourth stage moves from liberty to abundance. The fifth stage moves from abundance to selfishness. The sixth stage moves from selfishness to complacency. The seventh stage moves from complacency to apathy. The eighth stage moves from apathy to moral decay. The ninth stage moves from moral decay to dependence. And the tenth and last stage moves from dependence to bondage.”

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/pr…..cline.html

of course there is always hope. :-)

Indeed, A Mom, teen culture is vigorously anti-intellectual–but it seems to creeping into ever older age groups!

Sure, Andrea, tell us what you admired about the old show, and what you see missing from current political media.

It’s funny – I think parents are probably the ones who suffer the most from the life of why! Children are always asking questions – in fact, I start the book by interviewing experts about how children learn to inquiry. The truth is that inquiry is the natural state – provided that a child has at least one person in her life that she can trust. The issue is how we inhibit why as children age – as parents who begin to emphasize the results of childrens’ efforts and not their process, and the schools that emphasize getting the right answer instead of cultivating curiosity.

Thank You for writing this book I’m about to bring into my school I have on several occasions asked that the fifth grade who go to Philadelphia, watch CSPAN when our Senate and Congress are in session. What can we do to put it as part of a curriculum? Thanks

Well, the show was a place for vigorous discussion of public issues. The host would invite people who represented different viewpoints – not for hand to hand combat, but to share their views. There are actually some recordings that remain – I’ll try to find those now and link to them. The audience members were incredibly engaged. They asked questions. In fact, the audience member who asked the best question got a prize!

I contrast that kind of experience – a respectful dialogue where people are encouraged to question – with a Lou Dobbs, which to me is emblematic of the shift in our media from playing the role of asking questions to offering opinions. Dobbs, and I know this from first-hand experience, doesn’t ask questions. He makes statements, and offers a question mark at the end.

That’s a great idea! One of the main thrusts of my book is that democracy is the perfect canvas for young people to learn how to question. I write a lot about civics education. I know this is a weird thing for a progressive like me to advocate – it harkens back – but I do believe that we need to encourage young people to question their democracy (both fed and local) if we want them to be effective citizens. And wasn’t that the point of the public school system in the first place?

I do think there are hopeful signs all around us. I couldn’t work for social change if I didn’t. I highlight examples in the book. I do write in one of the chapters about “self-esteem,” and how this movement towards building self-esteem in young people can inhibit their ability to question because young people who are praised regularly for their achievement are less likely to want to take the risk of challenging themselves. I think there is a parallel with our country, which does hold tightly to its number 1 status, and which makes us collectively less interested in taking the risk of questioning.

Do you see any show on television at the current time that allows for reasoned discussion?

I remember when the late-night shows used to have authors and artists on their show for extended discussions, for 10 or 15 minutes. One week, when Johnny Carson was on vaciation, he was replaced by opera singer Beverly Sills!

Why do you think those formats have disappeared?

Dobbs is a “So, when did you stop beating your wife?” type of questioner.

I have not had an opportunity to read your book Andrea but the premise is interesting. I come from teachers on both sides of my family.

What impact do you think is due to the proliferation of A) home schooling, B) rise of Creationists/”Intelligent Design” in the classroom, and C) the homogenization of so much of the culture with so many parts of cities looking just like everywhere else (same fast foods, big store chains, etc)?

Beverly Sills! Well, I do think there are good discussions. I prefer the more conversational formats than the cable news shouting (though I can shout as well as the next one). I think the formats have disappeared because we, as a people, are increasingly interested in getting our sense of the world from a media that offers answers. We want opinions – opinionated news. We want a lens so we can be told how to feel about things. At the same time, it just so happens that this type of media is nice and cheap, and so an increasingly consolidated media industry is better suited to offering such a lens rather than the types of investigations that cost more money. I’m oversimplifying a bit, but I do believe it’s a combo of what we want, and what is cheaper for industry to provide.

Reminds me of the 60s when we said to “Question Authority”.

A quote from Andrea’s book about self-esteem experiments involving two groups, one that was praised for being smart, the other that was praised for working hard. When a harder exam was given, the groups diverged:

“The children who were praised for being smart did not want to take a risk that they would fail. WHen faced with a challenge, they were more worried about losing their standing as ’smart’ than interested in what they could learn from the exercise to make them even smarter. . . . The children praised for their effort, however, looked forward to the challenge.”

•School curricula that aim to produce effective and obedient workers

That’s been the case for decades, and is much less so now than it was when I was a child in the 40s and 50s. So why do you include that as one of your “causes.”

I might mention that I questioned my son’s statements all the time when he was growing up (now 28) and it turned him into a true believer wingnut.

Personally, I long for William Buckley’s “Firing Line,” especially visits by John Kenneth Galbraith and others on the Left.

Thank you! Absolutely. The young people need all the encouragement we can give them. T
We have the technology to watch our representatives and how they work, so if the young people can go to Philadelphia to see how and where our government started, I think there should be a follow up by letting them see CSPAN which is a great place for the young people to start.

Thanks dakine. When I interviewed experts, including one I write about in the book, about how young people inquire, the answer is “they bump up against the unfamiliar.” I do think that our increasing ideological segregation has as an implication that we are less and less likely to bump up against the unfamiliar. And so there is less impetus to question.

I don’t want this to be confused, though. I have an ideology – about the role of government in our lives. It’s what drives my work. But I think that when we solely enclose ourselves in these bubbles of ideological homogeneity, it does offer fewer catalysts to question.

Lou Dobbs has strong opinions, Andrea, and I’ve been on his radio show three times. In truth, I appreciate his independence.

What do you think about the ideal of objectivity in the media?

A true believer wingnut of what? Are you saying you accidentally turned your child into a right-wing conservative? That is a risk. During the time you describe, children were also taking civics classes – classes like PRoblems in Democracy where they were able to explore current affairs. So while I agree with you that our schools were never these idyllic institutions committed solely to preparing young citizens, I argue that is far worse today as teachers have less discretion, standardized exams are the name of the game, and the role of schools in preparing young people for democracy is barely ever discussed.

I don’t actually think Dobbs is “independent.” Of what? He can be counted on to offer the talking points handed to him by some of the least rigorous and most provocative shops around town – and some even more unseemly organizations and people.

I don’t want him to be “objective” – that’s not what I ask of him. What I wish is that he weren’t presented as a “journalist,” because I view journalists as people for whom inquiry is the tool of their trade. I do not believe inquiry is a tool in Dobbs’ arsenal.

As a pundit, his routine is fine. As a representative of the type of media we see now, it is a problem for our democracy.

Wingnut is the pejorative for right-wing politically, you know, a real fan of Grover Norquist.

Is there an ameliorative for “right-wing politically”?

I understand your experience is with NYC schools, but have you noticed a significant difference in how “democracy” is taught in different states across the U.S.?

Mark – I wanted to point out one thing: when I was writing the book, which focuses a lot on today’s young people and the environment in which we are raising them, I felt tugs from two sides: you and your book “The dumbest generation,” which calls out the younger generation for their lack of critical thinking and engagement, and the Rock the Vote/2008 electoral narrative viewpoint, for example, that young people are the most engaged in history. It was tough for me to both acknowledge participation and engagement while also making the point, I hope convincingly, that there are a lot of danger signs out there about young people’s ability to exercise effective citizenship in the future. DO you think the book handles this tension fairly?

Hey Bev. I think it really differs. I travel in the book from NYC to Hampton, Virginia to California and write about places in between. I do think some states and localities do more to emphasize civics, for example, but I think it’s about our national vision for the role schools should play.

Andrea, most of the schools, at least here on LI are so wrapped up in testing they have no time for civics or anything else.

I think you managed quite well, Andrea, to introduce some skepticism into the rosy picture painted by many commenters on youth today. For instance, you remember that Time Magazine in January 2008 declared this 2008 would be “The Year of the Youth Vote.” And yet, when tallies were in, the youth vote rose only two percentage points from 2004, from 49 percent to 51 percent. Many predicted a gain of more than six points.

But, nonetheless, the youth vote proved a political force, for it went for one candidate by 2-to-1, and discrepancy never seen before. This does make the youth a civic juggernaut, and unless the Republican Party closes that gap, it will be in the desert for a long time.

So, I think it’s a mixed picture regarding young people, and you brought out the positives and negatives well, in particular bringing out the forces squelching inquisitiveness among the young.

This standardized testing movement is one that I definitely see as Exhibit A of our belief that schools emphasize answers over questions. I understand the importance of accountability – absolutely. And before No Child Left Behind, there was very little attention to the achievement of low-income and communities of color. But, as Debbie Meier says, and I’m paraphrasing, somewhere along the way we have confused standardized testing for reform. The testing isn’t the reform. The testing is the measurement. What are we trying to measure? And why don’t we see curiosity, critical thinking, discernment as qualities important enough to measure?

Just how widespread is this problem compared to past historical periods I’m thinking the Senator McCarthy era where expressing curiosity at the library about Marx could get you on a list.
Granted up until last year ( I hope its over) expressing Dissent probably got you on a list which if anything should make Dissent cool with teenagers.
Is there any evidence of that going on?

“Why” ended for me with the issuance, and media acceptance, of the Warren Report.

Since then, it’s been — this is the official story. Period.

Ayn Rand is not dead, by the way. The rugged, independent individual is alive and doing quite well in parts of Arizona, for example. In some hamlets, it’s open carry, no cops, live and let live, and negligible crime.

Also, as the work of CIRCLE has pointed out so well, young people who participate in civics efforts in their schools, who talk about issues, who make meaningful contact with the news, they are likely to achieve academically at higher levels!

So it is a further painful irony that we don’t emphasize the very things that would excite young people to want to learn. That’s the point I try to make in the book – the “why” matters (I write about the three R’s and the Why).

In the places that I visit where young people are engaged in their community, they are more engaged in their studies.

The only kids in our schools that are showing their independent thinking and critical thinking is the gifted and talented who go out for 30 min a couple of times a week. Maybe all the children should get a little of that curriculum every day

OK, you may laugh. I live in Kansas. My three children, one a high schooler, one a middle schooler, and one a grade schooler, have all been in our rural school district since kindergarten. I have been amazed how every step of the way there has been an emphasis on critical thinking skills. And I do mean starting in kindergarten. The allegation of schools just creating workerbees has been around a very long time now. Maybe it is true in other states; indeed, we live in a state where we are still battling creationism on the state school board, never mind the idiocy of Brownback, Roberts and Tiahart. All I can say is that here on the local level, where one-quarter of our kids qualify for free lunches, our test scores are not bested by any neighboring district, and I am well satisfied-that our children in our districe are being taught critical thinking skills.

In a chapter that I know Mark was less thrilled with, “The Marxist, Anti-American Conspiracy to Convert Young People to Engaged Citizenship” I talk about one threat to civic engagement. I write of the attacks on schools of the “social justice” school by pundits at conservative right-wing think tanks. In my view, these schools are working to engage students in their local communities and to create that sense of “why” — but, I think it is very politically threatening to some to see young people actively engaged in working towards change in their local communities.

An example of the influence of testing on thinking. A while back, if you went to the US Dept of Ed site and looked up a sample passage for reading exam for 12th Graders, what popped up was 1040EZ Federal Tax form.

Wow. That’s nuts.

Why would I laugh? I think that’s terrific. Surely there are places where excellent education is taking place. My concern is that the incentives aren’t there nationally for such education to become the norm.

#
# School curricula that aim to produce effective and obedient workers, not independent thinkers.

Rote Memorization does not teach critical thinking skills just facts we know that No Child Left Behind infected the public schools with this.
But one could argue that nobody in the Bush administration despite their Private schooling ever critically analyzed any of their mistakes.
Are the Private Schools teaching Rote Memorization what other factors could explain the lack of Why?
I’m thinking the attitude of never admitting mistakes is a factor. You can’t analyze whats not there.

Tell us, Andrea, why you think so many people are segregating themselves ideologically in our country today.

Social Justice school? Now I feel like I missed something important in my education.

That’s a tough one to answer – I’d love your thoughts on it. I write about the fact of it, and the implications of it, but not its cause. Though I’m reading Nixonland, and I think it has the answer. What do you think?

One piece that we haven’t talked about yet is the role of the search engine. I write a chapter, “In Google We Trust,” that explores the impact of the way we interact with search engines today on our capacity/willingness/ability to inquire.

I think, Andrea, that, as you say at the beginning, the blandishments of belonging, the comforts of like-minded friends, the soothing sounds of echo chambers–they’re hard to resist some times. Sitting across the table from people who deeply disagree with you is unpleasant, especially when you lose! Intellectual combat is exhausting, especially when you’re unaccustomed to it. And what has happened with Web customization is that people are now able to groove their exposures ever more personally. You get RSS feeds and newsletters and emails and blog posts that already fit your vision. A reinforcement effect sets in, making encounters with the other side that much more disturbing.

A quick note about Google as a search engine. I’ve been told that the percentage of Google searches that go past the very first page of results is . . . less than one! It’s not a search process–it’s a delivery process.

. The issue is how we inhibit why as children age – as parents who begin to emphasize the results of childrens’ efforts and not their process, and the schools that emphasize getting the right answer instead of cultivating curiosity.

I was unless it was an emergency and getting to school on time was sometimes an emergency I was always listened to and reasoned with as if I was an adult.
Superior knowledge seemed to give my parents an edge in getting what they wanted so I became interested in learning cause I was a selfish kid who wanted his own way.
Could getting kids to do what you want with force more lead to kids seeking authority rather than knowledge to get what they want?
Why it seems is only a value if it gets young kids something.

I couldn’t agree more. I write about this in the chapter “ideological segregation: by clique or by click.” I do think the net has an awesome power of introducing us to worlds we know nothing about, but its default behavior, our rather our default use of it, is more about customizing our path through information even more, so that we find what we were looking for..

How often do kids or even adults doubt something they find on the net even if they know its not true and then look for facts to support what they know is right?

In addition, Andrea writes about Google results: “young people don’t question the sources of the information they find through their searches.” Precisely, they take what they find as the answer to what they’ve been asked. They become content retrievers instead of inquirers.

true. and it’s one that is changing the way we think of “research.” So it’s problematic on two levels: how we actually search for information, and what that says about our ability to inquire (which means not just asking the question but evaluating the answer, discerning its authority, synthesizing the results, etc.), but also about how we ask questions *outside* of the search engine. As Ulyses Mejias, a professor I interview in the book, says – “what about the questions Google can’t answer?”

I’m less worried about that than I am about the fact that we aren’t teaching young people to discern the authority of whatever they find! Search, take first three results, print out, rinse and repeat.

When ETS surveyed college students on the technological literacy, they expected to find powerful evidence of youth savvy that would make us digital immigrants blush. What they found instead was that while test takers were skillful in the superficial tasks of searching, cutting and pasting, etc., when it came to deeper tasks such as evaluating the materials they called up, their judgment broke down. One story on the report was headlined, “Are College Students Techno Idiots?”

Authority or Bias toward one view or another?

Congrats Andrea.

You are here to respond to Mark.

One of the things that media and digital tools do in people’s lives is speed up their listening, writing, and judging to absurdly accelerated paces. Stand behind young people at a computer terminal in the library and listen to how quickly they tap the keyboard, watch how fast the pages flash across the screen, and you know that they’re being conditioned to go faster, faster, faster.

This isn’t effective training for deliberative, judicious, circumspect, analytical inquiry.

I do think it is possible to teach better digital skills. There are people doing it all across the country.I just think it requires effort, and we need to make that effort rather than use the technology without questioning it.

One of my anachronistic gripes is that young people have no relationship with the print newspaper. In a program that the Drum Major Institute, from which I’m on leave, runs, called DMI Scholars we prepare young activists from under represented communities to pursue careers in public policy. There’s a two week boot camp in NYC every summer, and each day begins with a review of the actual print newspaper. What did you read? What questions do you have about this issue after reading the article? etc. These young people are all online news addicts, but they fall in love with reading the paper b/c they are exposed to new ideas and issues, and it sets up a daily practice that is contrast to the constant onslaught of tidbits they receive via text Facebook etc throughout the day.

What do you mean?

Howie Kurttz is far more noxious than Lou Dobbs, IMO. Dobb’s POV is laid out plainly. Kurtz’s is hidden. He’s a paid propagandist whose mission is to smother anything so much as vaguely “lfet” in the lie of “balance.”

I trust you’re familiar with his wife. She put Arnold in charge of California.

both! i do think it’s important that, in the research process, young people learn to evaluate the expertise of the information they encounter.

I don’t actually think Dobbs is “independent.” Of what? He can be counted on to offer the talking points handed to him by some of the least rigorous and most provocative shops around town – and some even more unseemly organizations and people.

I don’t want him to be “objective” – that’s not what I ask of him. What I wish is that he weren’t presented as a “journalist,” because I view journalists as people for whom inquiry is the tool of their trade. I do not believe inquiry is a tool in Dobbs’ arsenal.

I agree completely Dobbs is a tool:) that Mexicans spread Leprosy thing was an attempt to spread Racial Plague riots.
Ever since the economy tanked the Lou Dobbs money show suddenly became the blame the Unions, blame the Mexicans for the Economy show.

First, let me stipulate I believe NCLB is an extraordinarily well-thought out conservative strategy to, in the long-run, promote vouchers. Impossible goals have been set, which lends itself to concluding the public schools have failed our children, ergo, vouchers (and competition) are the logical conclusion to correct this “failure” on the part of public schools.

That said, seems to me that most of those criticizing testing don’t know beans about it. I think we would all agree that for third graders, there is a universe of facts about the world all third graders should know. This is a rather large universe of facts, and as the grade of the child advances, that universe of facts we would expect them to know expands rapidly.

Now, how can we know a child has acquired those facts we all agree they should know? Well, we can create a test asking for the child’s knowledge regarding each of those facts. Even for a third-grader, that would be a very long test. So, instead, we create a test where we have randomly sampled from that universe of facts and created a much shorter test. And thus we infer from a child’s performance on that test, that is, the number of questions they got right, as to how many of the facts in the universe of facts we think they should know, they would know.

This is a test having content validity. They are very accurate, and serve their purpose well. However, this is only one purpose served by standardized testing. More later.

Did you see that a company that runs three small newspapers in New England went down a week or so ago?

I do regard the newspaper as an essential democratic institution, and that it needs to be read in print form. Why? Because in electronic form what people tend to do is pick and choose the things they read, and they don’t read what they pick very well. It would be worthwhile to have high schools bring that summer program into schools during the year.

I guess I pose this question to the progressive movement generally – do we need to have a newspaper strategy?

I talked to the folks at nytimes.com – they are exploring ways to recreate serendipity on the net. Could be interesting. That’s my main gripe about solely using the net for news – for the most part, you find what you were looking for, and you make your decisions based on the headline.

Remember that No Child Left Behind was vigorously supported by Teddy Kennedy.

This is a test having content validity. They are very accurate, and serve their purpose well. However, this is only one purpose served by standardized testing. More later.

I’m sensing some objections to testing here:)

Everyone makes Mistakes granted not everyone admits all their mistakes.

Many bloggers believed for a while (and still do) that amateur journalism would, in fact, produce a more robust scrutiny of Big Government and Big Business and Big Media. They spent years pointing to the Dan Rather story on Bush’s war service as their triumphant arrival.

Since then, though, do we know of any blogger investigations that have led the way in uncovering corruption, crime, cronyism?

I think this society has become more and more anti-feeling. More consumer hypnotized. More style not substance. Does that encourage a lack of curiosity. Certainly empathy to appreciate the “other”.

Loyalty to a team or group prevails, rather than generosity or honesty as a value.

Jay Leno used to do those “jay walking interviews” with people on the street asking general knowledge questions and it is really painful. I think the smart kids are getting smarter, and the other end kids are really sliding.

I think media puffs up the news, too, and doesn’t role model.

With economic stress, too, going on to college is not “liberal arts” education for education sake, but more about economic career track. Pretty normal since tuition so exorbitant I suppose.

Multiple choice answers not critical thinking approach.

I agree that we need GOOD newspapers but most of them are not. They are trying to save themselves by raising their prices – to an absurd amount – but not printing the NEWS. I don’t care about the junk and wasted paper – just give me facts and I’ll decide how I feel about a given issue. I stopped my paper about 4 months ago because the price jumped from $203.00 per year to $405.00. Not going to pay that when I can get better, faster and more accurate news on the net.

I think Teddy Kennedy wanted what a lot of other people wanted – to no longer allow districts to come up with “averages” for their performance that would mask the achievement of those most at risk. Unfortunately, this obsession with test scores has created an environment in which we only teach what is going to be tested and young people feel that their worth is determined by their ability to fill in the bubbles correctly. Testing isn’t the problem – it’s testing as the driving force of our school reform that is the problem.

I think to question the main stream corporate media is a great gift of enlightenment to bloggers and from them. “No thank you” to a degree to the corporate-self-aggrandizing spin and kool-aid.

I know I was wondering what the REAL truth was about the elections in both Iran and Honduras (and the REAL motives behind the hype) and the emphatic-ness of the media made me all the more suspicious and wanting to google and blog and seek out the real truth.

I hope that cyber window stays open to dig but don’t trust government or corporations, sadly, to let it be for us.

I guess I pose this question to the progressive movement generally – do we need to have a newspaper strategy?

Yes highschool kids should read the paper everyday and be assigned to write a paragraph about one article in a different section of the paper every day even if its, the art, fashion or books section.
These articles should be graded and comments written on them so the kids get feed back from their ideas.
Also we need a better media Judy Miller showed just how bad even the NY Times was in the tank for Bush.

(uh, Mark? Don’t know if you spend much time around here but there’s this blog associated with FDL called Emptywheel where some serious investigative reporting tends to occur – just so’s ya know) :})

Do you want healthy kids?

Your answer is no.

Because if it were this, here would be your required high school agenda:

– 2 years of math

– 4 years of English

– 2 years of science

– American history

Circa 1963.

I had:

– 2 years of Latin

– 2 years of French

– 5 years of math,

– 4 years of science

– 4 years of physical education

Note, too, that reading scores for 12th Graders haven’t budged since 2002, and they have actually fallen since the early 90s.

Hlm. Not sure what you’re basing your decision on that I don’t want healthy kids. At the same time you went to school young people were also taking civics. But, beyond that, I’m sure you also realize that the very subjects you took and/or suggest others take (science, physical education, multiple languages) have been deprioritized in the NCLB era.

I confess that I find this discussion really frustrating. As a member of your ‘dumbest generation,’ I am *constantly* told that I don’t care enough, I don’t ask enough questions, I’m lazy, I’m spoiled, etc.
Yes, some parts of pop culture are anti-intellectual, but I would hardly say all youth culture is braindead. We are the ones who started using blogs to air out our own opinions and discuss them with our friends. Granted, not all of our opinions were on healthcare or abortion, but not all of them were about the Jonas Brothers either. Also, if you listen to some of the real youth music out there (not the stuff pushed by corporations like Disney), a lot of it is highly charged political and personal expression. Obviously, there are some people who silence themselves for the sake of being cool. But how many people in the 60s said ‘Question Authority’ not because they wanted to question authority, but because their friends were saying it? Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
As for the issue in education, I went to a gigantic, mixed-race, mixed-class school. I had some of the most bland, institutional-grade teachers and some of the most inspiring, challenging ones anyone could hope for. So much of it is class-based. Being white and middle class, I had a fairly easy path to the various gifted and talented programs, for which teachers were better paid, higher qualified, and generally more likely to encourage us to think critically. Outside of the GT programs, with notable exceptions, many of my teachers could have easily been replaced with robots. When schools don’t have enough money to get decent supplies and trained teachers, it’s no wonder students are left to memorize and search the internet.
It’s not an issue of praise vs. censure. I remember the one time I dared to disagree with my AP Literature teacher on her interpretation of Crime and Punishment, she essentially told me I was an idiot. I was only ‘praised’ when I wrote what she said. Another teacher of mine used praise to encourage people to take different perspectives, commending us when we made an insightful observation or, better yet, proved him wrong.
Be careful who you call lazy and unquestioning. We’re here, and we’re reading.

that’s one role I think parents can play – instilling a newspaper reading habit in our children. Research shows that most people who read newspapers did so from watching their parents do so.

I just subscribed, dakine01.

Another thing: my mother is the one who canceled our print newspaper subscription because she felt that the quality of articles was not worth the price of delivery. You don’t learn anything from ritualistically reading bad journalism.

Since then, though, do we know of any blogger investigations that have led the way in uncovering corruption, crime, cronyism?

Barry Ritholtz at his FDL book club explained Cronyism quite well during the Bush years.
Corruption, Crime Greg Palast does good work, Brad Blog is the place to go on election fraud. Calculated Risk and the Econ blogs were predicting the housing boom would burst and they explained the corruption of what was going on.
I do think we need more reporters here I think Jane is working on that.

Please do make visits frequently. Marcy is a marvel at EW in ferreting out a lot of information from publicly accessible sources.

An attention to detail, and an ability to pull disparate pieces together into coherent time-lines, she has managed to kick a lot of TradMed reporters around the room with her investigations.

Unfortunately, mathgoddess, you are not representative of the majority of your age group. We do have a small cohort of super kids out there, less than 10 percent, though (if we calculate them based on homework time–according to the High School Survey of Student Engagement, fully 55 percent of high schoolers spend 1 hour or less(!) reading/studying for class per week (yes, week)).

I agree, mathgoddess. Though it’s something of a self-fulfilling prophecy – if we give up on the print media industry, they have less money for reporting, producing less good content and more advertisements and fluff, and we give up on them, and so on and so forth.

I should also say that, for me, this isn’t about youth bashing. I’m not so old yet – 32 (I guess maybe that’s ancient) – and I have spent much of my career engaging young people in discussions about public policy. My analysis is that I do think children growing up today are doing so in an environment that promotes atrophy of the question-asking muscles. I think we have to speak frankly about that to change it.

Then here’s a question for you: How was the survey conducted? Who did they talk to? What grades/areas of the country/etc.? Do you have a link?

We need not more youth-bashing, but more youth-criticism. Andrea notes in her opening sections on “Lessons from Childhood” that there is a clear discrepancy in achievement between young people praised for their inner attributes and young people praised for working hard (or criticized for not working hard enough).

The High School Survey of Student Engagement is an ongoing project at Indiana University–huge sample size. Just type the title into good ol’ Google and it will come up first.

“Just type the title into good ol’ Google and it will come up first.
“
The irony is staggering.
Be back in a few.

Another teacher of mine used praise to encourage people to take different perspectives, commending us when we made an insightful observation or, better yet, proved him wrong.

This is what we need from teachers. Also I wonder the Left worries about kids who are not critical enough thinkers each generation and the Right has been moaning about the fall of morals and standards since they stopped teaching
Ovid and replaced him with that new studies guy Shakespeare:)

Teachers burn out … they start to feel like “I love Lucy” with the candy speeding by her on the assembly line and can’t get into a stride.

Huge classes are rough on teachers. Alternate school set ups are a good idea. For all levels and behaviors of kids. More intimacy and time for thoughtfulness and creativity.

It’s no irony to rely on Google as a retrieval tool and criticize its use as a one and only research tool.

There’s also tons of research over at Pew and elsewhere on the relationship between today’s younger generation and the news media. According to recent research from Pew, 1 in 3 young people have no meaningful engagement with the news on any given day (including online). Of course it is difficult to participate in a meaningful way in democracy with limited knowledge about what’s actually happening.

Again, this is not about young people themselves, but the culture that surrounds all of us – what it rewards, what it encourages, etc. and the development of technologies that have surely changed how we interact with the world around us.

A question for Andrea.

Would you like to recommend any books from the past that promoted the inquiry outlook?

Dare I say “values” and “ethics” need to be addressed in our schools. Touchy feely stuff that got blasted decades ago by the “pragmatics”. “Getting over” and “cronyism-profiteering” seems to be rampant in our halls of government and financial industry and military today. Legalized bribery with lobbies. Need role modeling for integrity.

Hlm. Good question. I don’t know if the books promoted the “inquiry outlook” per se, but I think there’s a lot of writing out there on the importance of critical thinking. I spent time, on the rec of friends who are educators, looking up the work of people like Benjamin Bloom who developed a taxonomy of questions used by educators. I found that it was hard to do research for this book – not much out there on “inquiry” in those terms, so where I couldn’t find books I reached out to practitioners – teachers, child psychologists, etc.

Agreed we need Empathy and less worship of Moloch and Manana, but how do sell integrity?
Maybe testing Big Corporate CEO’s for being Sociopaths would help for if Sociopathic behavior was not rewarded at the top those in school would not be admiring them.

Before I forget, a quick and brazen plug for the book!
http://thedeathofwhy.com/

As we come to the end of this lively Book Salon,

Andrea, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us and discussing your new book and the future of democracy.

Mark, Thank you for Hosting this Book Salon.

Everyone, this is a good book, if you haven’t bought Andrea’s book yet, here is a link.

Thanks all.

I was thinking of classics, such as Socrates on rationality, Milton on censorship, Kierkegaard on doubt, Mill on marketplaces of ideas, . . .

Thanks so much for this opportunity, and Mark thanks so much for your thoughtful intro and questions. I’ve enjoyed talking with everyone.

Good talk Andrea:)

Thank you, Beverly, for setting it up, and for highlighting such a lively and engaging book.

Thanks for participating!

Sun Tze, Machiavelli, Aristophanes, Thudicles all easy reads 2 of whom I did read in highschool.

Andrea- I appreciate that you want to look at ‘the culture that surrounds all of us,’ but I still feel that from your previous posts on this thread, there is a decided tone of ‘youth are being lazy.’ Obviously, some are, but I really don’t think that’s the major issue.
Mark- I thought the relationship between the level of boredom, amount of work, and favorite type of class was very telling, more so than just the time spent on schoolwork taken in isolation. High schoolers report that their favorite types of classes involve discussion and debate, a far cry from rote memorization. 50% of people feel bored every day because of uninteresting material or lack of teacher involvement. It seems to me like the classes aren’t living up to student’s desire to debate and discuss, not the other way around. No wonder students spend less time on schoolwork outside of school.

I still maintain that the real problem is the lack of funding, training, materials, etc. that stifles the classroom atmosphere.

Damn it, too late.

Your welcome oh I meant to ask this earlier but the death of why I think is the fear of being singled out as stupid for asking a question.
My folks always treated me serious as I said so I as many folks here can attest have no fear of asking dumb questions.
Being right being there with the smart question once makes the other 10 eh questions all worth while in my book.

Thanks. Was feeling inspired by discussion but on outside looking in.

Reality tv is sure not the answer except for something like Intervention. So much ego and narcissism and stress manipulation by the producers. But maybe more heroes there and celebs who are heroes more than brats. Tony Soprano was enthralling but shows how seductive the sociopaths can be. Personality not character.

Maybe the volunteerism getting attention will be a start.

But stress causes narcissism and that does not promote expansion toward others but contraction away. Still hitting a bottom makes people angry and anger does inspire change and renewal, too. WTF! kind of …. inventorying of one’s life choices, etc.

Thanks again. TCU :)

I agree plus more art and shop classes to keep things interesting:)

emptywheel, upstairs!
Meet the Press STILL Lets Guests “Control the Message”

Maybe the volunteerism getting attention will be a start.

I like this idea best and I think it can help get kids asking why too:)

One of my dearest regrets is that I never took a shop class. Thank god for stage crew, otherwise I would never know how to use a hammer.

MathGodess I am not a math person at all are you on the FDL facebook page? here is my question divide any rime number except 3 for obvious reasons you get a repeating decimal ending in .333 or .666 the bible holy trinity and the number of the beast these numbers alternate as you divide numbers until they you get 2 .333 or .666’s and then the numbers alternate again is there a pattern somewhere is math as a science aware of this?
I lack the skills to search the math on the net to find an answer public school Philosophy major here.

sorry divide all prime numbers bt the number 3

I’m a little confused by your question. All prime numbers (all numbers not divisible by 3, in fact) are either 1 or 2 mod 3 (that is, are equal to 3x + 1 or 3x + 2) so yeah, anything divided by three is going to end in either 1/3 or 2/3. Not sure where the primes come in here.