Comments on: A Boxer, Two Bishops and Science, Too http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/ Firedoglake weblog Fri, 17 Feb 2012 15:48:03 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Glenn W. Smith http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934776 Glenn W. Smith Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:57:41 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934776 <p>Thanks, bobschacht. I think you’re right about some of the implications of the Reformation. And I think that’s what the bishop was challenging.</p> Thanks, bobschacht. I think you’re right about some of the implications of the Reformation. And I think that’s what the bishop was challenging.

]]> By: bobschacht http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934771 bobschacht Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:51:59 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934771 <p>Thanks for this diary!<br /> As an Episcopalian, I find it especially relevant!</p> <p>You quote Jefferts Schori as follows:</p> <blockquote><p>The overarching connection in all of these crises has to do with the great Western heresy - that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God.</p></blockquote> <p>She is not only tackling a “great Western heresy” here, she is confronting the entire Protestant Reformation.</p> <p>This will get discussed a lot– and that is good. Perhaps we need a new Reformation. But I don’t know if you can put this genie back in the bottle.</p> <p>Bob in HI</p> Thanks for this diary!
As an Episcopalian, I find it especially relevant!

You quote Jefferts Schori as follows:

The overarching connection in all of these crises has to do with the great Western heresy – that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God.

She is not only tackling a “great Western heresy” here, she is confronting the entire Protestant Reformation.

This will get discussed a lot– and that is good. Perhaps we need a new Reformation. But I don’t know if you can put this genie back in the bottle.

Bob in HI

]]> By: Mile23 http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934472 Mile23 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:54:08 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934472 <p>I am a nerd. I know this because when I saw the title of the video was ‘Desmond Tutu talks about ubuntu,’ I thought: What does Desmond Tutu have to say about <a href="http://www.ubuntu.com/" rel="nofollow">the Ubuntu linux distribution</a>?</p> <p>OK, I know I’m a nerd for other reasons, too.</p> <p>Anyway. Ubuntu is very similar to Rob Breszny’s ‘pronoia,’ which is the sense that somewhere, out there, unseen people are helping you.</p> I am a nerd. I know this because when I saw the title of the video was ‘Desmond Tutu talks about ubuntu,’ I thought: What does Desmond Tutu have to say about the Ubuntu linux distribution?

OK, I know I’m a nerd for other reasons, too.

Anyway. Ubuntu is very similar to Rob Breszny’s ‘pronoia,’ which is the sense that somewhere, out there, unseen people are helping you.

]]> By: TomR http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934444 TomR Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:10:17 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934444 <p>A couple of excellent clips from Bill Moyers Journal:</p> <p><a href="http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/07/video-insurance-lobbys-secret-plan-to-attack-sicko-and-michael-moore/" rel="nofollow">http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/.....ael-moore/</a></p> <p>- Tom</p> A couple of excellent clips from Bill Moyers Journal:

http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/…..ael-moore/

- Tom

]]> By: Glenn W. Smith http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934437 Glenn W. Smith Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:57:01 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934437 <p>Yes, this is a tradition I draw upon.</p> Yes, this is a tradition I draw upon.

]]> By: TomR http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934424 TomR Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:29:46 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934424 <p>—-<br /> Health care reform, for instance. We are fighting against “I got mine” special interests, and their worldviews are premised on notions of hyper-individualism. This is exactly why the central frame of the anti-reform effort is, “You’re going to lose the health care you have.”<br /> —-</p> <p>Which is happening anyway and makes for their poor argument. The thing we have going for us is they need us, if only to be manipulated to serve their purpose. Our power lies in not falling for it.</p> <p>I’ve long believed that manipulation is effective in the short-run, but fails in the long-run, once people get wise to what’s going on. I mean this in a general sense, i.e. you can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.</p> <p>Their claim to being individualistic is also a false frame, since they fear the real free market competition a public option will bring. They need to be artificially propped up and monopolize in order to exist. They continue to charge more while watering down their health care insurance products. Can you think of any industry where a company’s products continue to worsen and cost more, yet they should remain on top? I don’t think that even makes sense from a capitalist POV.</p> <p>- Tom</p> —-
Health care reform, for instance. We are fighting against “I got mine” special interests, and their worldviews are premised on notions of hyper-individualism. This is exactly why the central frame of the anti-reform effort is, “You’re going to lose the health care you have.”
—-

Which is happening anyway and makes for their poor argument. The thing we have going for us is they need us, if only to be manipulated to serve their purpose. Our power lies in not falling for it.

I’ve long believed that manipulation is effective in the short-run, but fails in the long-run, once people get wise to what’s going on. I mean this in a general sense, i.e. you can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

Their claim to being individualistic is also a false frame, since they fear the real free market competition a public option will bring. They need to be artificially propped up and monopolize in order to exist. They continue to charge more while watering down their health care insurance products. Can you think of any industry where a company’s products continue to worsen and cost more, yet they should remain on top? I don’t think that even makes sense from a capitalist POV.

- Tom

]]> By: Twain http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934421 Twain Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:26:08 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934421 <p>The National Academy of Science says”In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an<br /> important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. A Scientific theory is a well-substantiated<br /> explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed<br /> through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not “guesses” but reliable accounts of the real world. The theorty of biological evolution is more than “just a theory.” It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory.”</p> The National Academy of Science says”In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an
important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. A Scientific theory is a well-substantiated
explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed
through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not “guesses” but reliable accounts of the real world. The theorty of biological evolution is more than “just a theory.” It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory.”

]]> By: nahant http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934416 nahant Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:18:09 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934416 <p>According to the Catholic church evolution is not contrary to creation but an integral part of it! But they way some teach creationism things are the way they are without change. How short sighted is that?? We evolution at work every day in the way things change in response to their environment!</p> According to the Catholic church evolution is not contrary to creation but an integral part of it! But they way some teach creationism things are the way they are without change. How short sighted is that?? We evolution at work every day in the way things change in response to their environment!

]]> By: sad4america http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934413 sad4america Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:08:14 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934413 <p>I don’t think that all people that are “creationists” with that belief being based through their religion will reject any other findings. I think science and creationist theory can work together to some extent. Science should be a friend to “creationists” because the discussion should not be over for either party because there in no proof to claim right or wrong of either one on the whole. many on science only side are closed minded as well to consider the possibility of anything else</p> I don’t think that all people that are “creationists” with that belief being based through their religion will reject any other findings. I think science and creationist theory can work together to some extent. Science should be a friend to “creationists” because the discussion should not be over for either party because there in no proof to claim right or wrong of either one on the whole. many on science only side are closed minded as well to consider the possibility of anything else

]]> By: Rayne http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934412 Rayne Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:07:50 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/12/a-boxer-two-bishops-and-science-too/#comment-1934412 <p>This is a very old value, one which transcends our race, ethnicity, even time. Without the care, collaboration and the cooperation of community, we would not have survived many challenges over the last tens of thousands of years. </p> <p>We’ve seen this value reflected in culture: “It takes a village;” “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one).”</p> <p>Seems ridiculous that we have to argue about the need for selflessness and putting the needs of others ahead of ourselves with other so-called Christians, given Christ’s teachings on charitable deeds (Matthew 6:19-21, Luke 12:15, Luke 12:16-21, Mark 10:21, James 2:14-26). So much for the fundamentals of the faith.</p> This is a very old value, one which transcends our race, ethnicity, even time. Without the care, collaboration and the cooperation of community, we would not have survived many challenges over the last tens of thousands of years.

We’ve seen this value reflected in culture: “It takes a village;” “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one).”

Seems ridiculous that we have to argue about the need for selflessness and putting the needs of others ahead of ourselves with other so-called Christians, given Christ’s teachings on charitable deeds (Matthew 6:19-21, Luke 12:15, Luke 12:16-21, Mark 10:21, James 2:14-26). So much for the fundamentals of the faith.

]]>