With all the excitement swirling around South Carolina’s Romeo governor and Alaska’s Greatest Martyr, that OTHER Republican sex scandal — you know, the one with Senator John Ensign of Nevada cuckolding his administrative assistant, Doug Hampton, who then tried to extort large sums of money from the Senator — got lost in the shuffle.
That Tom Coburn (R-Oklahoma) had been counseling Ensign on how best to handle his marital difficulties is old news. What’s NOT old news is Hampton’s assertion that during a C Street "intervention, Coburn advised Ensign to buy his way out of his troubles. Zach Roth over at TPM’s Muckraker has retrained the klieg lights on Senator Ensign:
Coburn urged Ensign to pay "restitution" to the Hamptons, including helping them to pay the mortgage on their $1.2 million house and to move out of state.
This is where things get a bit dicey for Tom Coburn. Coburn’s office didn’t refute Hampton’s assertions, and issued a statement:
Dr. Coburn did everything he could to encourage Sen. Ensign to end his affair and to persuade Sen. Ensign to repair the damage he had caused to his own marriage and the Hampton’s marriage. Had Sen. Ensign followed Dr. Coburn’s advice, this episode would have ended, and been made public, long ago.
Someone must have pointed out that Coburn’s advice was not exactly kosher, because his office then issued a follow-up statement in which he categorically denies that he recommended paying Hampton a bribe:
Coburn repeatedly denied allegations that he urged Ensign to pay Doug Hampton, the husband of his mistress Cynthia, millions in hush money following a confrontation with Hampton. "I categorically deny everything he said," Coburn said.
Coburn knows he’s in deep shit, because at this point, he’s pulling out the stops to avoid testifying before the Senate Ethics Committee or in a lawsuit:
I was counseling him as a physician and as an ordained deacon. … That is privileged communication that I will never reveal to anybody. Not to the Ethics Committee, not to a court of law, not to anybody.
Well, isn’t that convenient. I asked our own Peterr to weigh in on this latest feint:
The title "deacon" is used in different denominations in different ways. It does fall under the broad category of ordained minister, but to claim privilege Coburn would have to demonstrate that he was acting in that capacity at the time of the conversation. Given the many conversations he held with Ensign in his capacity as a member of the Senate or as fellow members of the Republican party, he’d have to demonstrate that this one was different and conducted under the expectation of counselor/counselee or clergy/penitent confidentiality.
The big question is: If there were others there during this C Street intervention, does that negate any privilege Coburn might invoke, either as Ensign’s "preacher" or "doctor" (Coburn’s an OB-GYN, by the way)?
And finally, can either of Ensign’s parents claim a privilege, given that they paid the Hamptons $100K to shut the hell up?
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This just gets curiouser and curiouser. But I am really glad to have the entertainment.
Nice point. “Confessing” to a group as well as to the purportedly ordained “Dr. Coburn” would not be the same act as confessing privately to Coburn, just as “confessions” to an AA meeting’s participants don’t carry it. That is unless, perhaps, all of the Senators and Representatives present were confessing their adultery to “Dr. Coburn”….
Coburn’s claim may well be specious. He’s a Senator 24/7. He’s a senior Senator helping to keep a Senate colleague in office as the vital 40th vote. Hiding GOP political damage control behind a dog collar is an unworthy attempt at spin that few will buy.
Biggest question in my mind is whether an ethics complaint will be filed against ensign…….and, if so, by whom? Every single one of them (R & D) cover for all of the others……another sternly worded slap on the wrist?
Hey, WT!
One thing I’d add to my comment above. What I said there was about “deacons” in general. Coburn is a Southern Baptist, and what that means in terms of duties varies widely from congregation to congregation. Wiki describes the variety like this:
If Coburn is a deacon in the first sense — a member of the board of directors — he’s got next to no chance at being able to claim standing for any religious privilege. OTOH, if his congregation explicitly gives him and other deacons “less governance and more ministering and nurturing responsibilities,” then the claim would be stronger.
Either way, though, his public spouting off about his conversations with Ensign prior to this statement today makes any claims of privilege pretty shaky.
Consider: Karl Rove spent his Sundays on Fox News talking about all kinds of things he did at the WH, but then when Congress wanted him to talk to them about the very same things, he shouted “executive privilege!” Given the 8 hours or so he spent with congressional questioners the other day, you can see how well that claim held up.
Yeah, don’t hold your breath.
MUMSYand DAddy…tothe rescue
Sen. John Ensign ’s parents gave $96,000 to a former campaign staffer with whom he had an extramarital relationship and her family, his attorney said Thursday, denying that the payments violated campaign finance laws or Senate ethics rules.
“The payments were made as gifts, accepted as gifts and complied with tax rules governing gifts,” lawyer Paul Coggins said.
Coggins said Ensign’s parents “decided to make the gifts out of concern for the well-being of long-time family friends during a difficult time” after learning about the affair.
These supposedly moral Republicans just don’t know how to own up to their sins. At least John Edwards made a confession and apology.
A Rethug Senator is an OB/GYN? Now that’s a really scary thought. That it’s Coburn is even scarier.
If Coburn pushed his friend to pay blackmail isn’t that covering up a crime? If its not blackmail is it a misuse of campaign funds again crime. I don’t think a Deacon’s seal of Confession applies to crimes he helped the confesse or pushed the confesse to do.
SD, I seem to recall his holding opinions that one wouldn’t expect from anyone with medical education, let alone ob-gyn. Dont’ have time to go link searching, but google him. A few years ago I believe he made some truly outrageous statemnts. Of course, you already know he’s “pro-life.” With the usual vengeance.
The man is almost as ignorant as his fellow Oklahoman Inhofe.
Is there a touch of irony in self-described fiscal conservatives counseling the payment of hush money? It seems like coming clean and ‘fessing up would be the cost-effective way to go, albeit not in keeping with Republican tradition.
he sterilized a woman against her will iirc
AquaKitteh!
meee-ROWRRRRR!
Thank you for the schadenfreud-a-licious comic relief.
FunnyWheelieDiva
jane, you are featured at think progress…great spot
So if it come down to it Coburn has to prove he ministers to a flock and has heard confession before? I assume his church gives some sort of test, training, or at least a background check before letting people hear confessions?
What!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..Sep16.html
see17
Inhofe and Coburn make Laurel and Hardy look like geniuses.
edit: comment voluntarily withdrawn by the author
omgoodness!
Egad! Coburn’s defense is that he claims he received ORAL consent? Since when can anyone get a hangnail removed without SIGNING a medical release?
more
Today, when Tom Coburn continued to be pressed on whether or not he sterilized Amanda Plummer without her consent, he revealed that he had sterilized women who had 3 babies and didn’t want anymore. Or, in his own words:
—
In an interview this week on the Tulsa radio station KRMG, Coburn was asked: “To your knowledge, could this situation have happened, or has happened with any other women?”
Coburn, a physician, replied: “I’ve done this lots to women who have come in with emergency things who have asked me to sterilize them, underage. When they’ve already had three babies.”
He sterilized a White woman with 2 previous kids I assume she was poor. The Tea Baggers better look to their own women the GOP elite it seems has not gotten over their Eugenics flirtation.
I thought only Roman Catholics did the confession thing?
ROFLMFAO
yes he is abby normal Dr,Frankenstein
Totally OT news: Roland Burris Won’t Run For Senate Seat In 2010
As for your first question, that’s about right.
I have to say I’ve never heard a Southern Baptist Deacon claim a privilege like this before. RC, Episcopal, and Lutherans deacons — where there is explicit oversight/supervision and duty-specific training — yes, but that’s a whole different religious setup.
As for the second question, my guess is that there is probably no explicit test, training, or background check. In the hardcore conservative parts of the SBC, all that sounds too much like Secular Government and would be seen as encroaching on the freedom and independence of the congregation. “We get to decide who gets to be our deacons, using our own standards and no one else’s.” From what I’ve heard, in most of these congregations it comes down to less tangible stuff, like general reputation in the congregation and the community, how long you and your family have been involved in the church, what other roles you’ve played, etc.
Not 2 babies not 1 three sounds like a once the magic number is reached he makes a choice and assumes consent somehow in his twisted mind. I bet all the women were poor.
Bye
Dude found some smarts.
I since nixed the comment out of consideration for the sensitivity of the malpractice case under discussion.
Sorry thats the only holy confession priviledge I’m familliar with:)
No. For Roman Catholics, it is considered a sacrament — something commanded by God of the church. For others like Lutherans and Episcopalians and some other denominations, it’s not necessarily sacramental, but it still holds value and is practiced.
Deacon, my arse. I smell a rat.
I’m a little shocked, since he had the stones to accept the job in the first place I figured he intended to try to hang onto it. Wonder if Fitz or whoever is investigating Burris has more on him than we know. Might simply be that he wasn’t going to be able to raise enough (any) money to run.
Oh well, the nasty ol’ sailor saw it anyhow. *g*
I think this explains why he took the seat
Good answer so do you think Coburn will be forced to testify at some point even the Senate will have to investigate all the adultery going on unless Ensign and a few others resign. I’ll check back later bye!
And Peter, just to add a secular point of view — in most states, there is a legal privilege for religious advisors/ministers/rabbis etc. to keep confidential what they were told in specific circumstances.
For circs, see above discussion of other folks being present at the “confession,” or “counseling session.”
But it most definitely does not apply to just anybody you choose to call a spiritual advisor. Requirements/definitions set out by statute and case law.
I think if there hadn’t been such a stink raised at first and the ongoing questions he might have run. Like you I think his fundraising abilities are slim to none.
I consider that my key demographic.:-)
He is sterilizing women who have had 3 babies, but they are underage??
“I’ve done this lots to women who have come in with emergency things who have asked me to sterilize them, underage. When they’ve already had three babies.”
All in the family perhaps? WTF?
I also like how Ensign’s parents stepped up to the plate when horny boy told them he needed payola. Family values all the way.
Watertiger, nice catch on Coburn’s specialty.
IANAL, but even if Coburn can show that he routinely does pastoral counselling, I can’t see how he can claim priviledge. I think Peterr’s comments above are spot-on. It doesn’t sound as though Baptist deacons have pastoral responsibilities.
Another issue might be that even if Coburn is a deacon in Oklahoma, I would think that is limited to his Church in Oklahoma. Just as physician is not permitted to practice medicine in a state in which he is not licensed, I doubt Coburn’s Oklahoma faculties (if they exist) transfer to DC.
I was treasurer for 2 congressional campaigns for a candidate with no name recognition, pure progressive and we raised more money than that in a Rethug district. Both times.
Oh well, I’m just fashionably late.:-)
My guess about his fund-raising difficulty was… what’s the opposite of prescient?
Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice got nothing on these folks.
Hindsight.
From our very own Tigress/Authoress
Bob, Carol, Ted, Alice
By the way Kitty, can you get a statement from the Ensign Mistress?
omg, Ensign got his mommy and daddy to pay off his mistress, the cuckold, and their two kids?
This is outrageous. How can Republicans tolerate this man in their midst? How many checks have mommy and daddy written to the GOP committees recently to get sonny’s colleagues to stay quiet?
What an amazing pile of dirty laundry indeed.
And one other thing, this Ensign has been Pulverized!
Well, Coburn is an OB/GYN. Perhaps this specialty had something to do with his suitability as a counselor to an adulterer, an employer/harasser, and a cuckolder.
What a bunch of moralistic hypocrites.
Next time any of you douchebags opens their mouth about my potential marriage — to the moon, Alice!!
i was taken aback
Metaphorically speaking, moonwise.
We need an analysis of Mommy and Daddy Ensign’s GOP contributions in the second quarter right away. Who else is being paid off for being silent, now that the story has broken wide open?
Life is the foremost of all treasures. It is expounded that even the treasures of the entire major world system cannot equal the value of one’s body and life. Even the treasures that fill the major world system are no substitute for life.
Public Option
Stop killing people with USA war machine
ah, shucks. once again I’m a day late and a dollar short. :~)
indeed
Scarecrow’s up with
More House Democrats Push for Robust Public Option
outstanding !!!!!!
Isn’t there an annual limit on what can be given as a “gift?” If it is $12K, well, this would mean that the payments were made in a 2 year time period?
I guess they could have given 4 people $12K each in December and another $12K in January?
Let’s see those tax returns.
Damn, Mrs Ensign is easier on my eyes than Mrs Hampton. Mayhaps it’s because Mrs Hampton reminds me too much of Ronda Storms, the bugaboo of FL progressives.
I find myself doing a double-take every time I see the word “cuckolder.” Probably time to upgrade my eyeglass prescription.
scarey photo; she looks like a vampire.
Mommy gave 12,000 to each of the four Hamptons, as did Pops. Total 96,000
I am starting to deja vu Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. Sanford almost as good as Tammy Faye; better make-up though National Enquirer, Playboy and a few others must be looking by now. I am looking to the Fall issue with the Sanford girls! Geraldo must be itching to get at this story – too bad Fox probably will not let him. Just have to wait and see if there is a Jessica Hahn in all this.
You have no idea. When she was on the Hillsborough County Commission callers to WMNF from Pinellas County continually said how glad they were that we didn’t have Ronda on our county commission. With Ronda, if you ain’t a WASP, fugetaboutit.
I see. Too bad Grandma and Grandpa couldn’t have got into the action. House payments, I read. The house is ghastly. Cheesy Venetian.
Absolutely.
Not every conversation I have with someone — even one of my parishioners — is covered by clergy privilege. There’s a definite set of secular legal parameters that have to be met. First among them is “does this person perform what the law describes as ‘pastoral’ acts?” After that you get to the parameters around the particular conversation(s) in question, but I have serious doubts as to whether Coburn would even make it past the first hurdle.
But of course, IOKIYAR.
The house is ghastly. Cheesy Venetian.
Dr. Tom’s bedside manor…
And it’s just a coincidence that the federal gift tax would kick in at $12,001 per individual recipient per year.
And isn’t it odd that only two of the three Hampton children received a gift?
Why, it’s almost enough to make someone think that this was about something a bit more . . . calculated.
Agreed, absent more info, of course.
Btw, I shouldn’t have addressed that to you, Peterr, I meant it more as a secular pov to other posters less well-informed on the privilege than you (obviously) are.
Absolutely. Each state has it’s own statutes that cover various categories of privileged communications.
My understanding has always been that if I —or the “confessor” were to share anything that was talked about within a minister/parishioner confidential conversation with anyone that the conversation would no longer be covered by legal protection. The bond would be broken.
I agree with Peterr that he’s on shaky ground to begin with in terms of his legal qualification to be serving as clergy, but the fact that the conversation has already been talked about should pretty much kill any claim he might have to keep it confidential.
Don’t know the laws in the village and they would probably be the ones to look at.
I think he’s blowing smoke.
Shorter Sen. Coburn to the media:
Hands off of Ensigns’ privates.
-G
I do hope this is the end of the road for this creep. I am responding to SD’s comment because I am curious if anyone remembers back in ‘05, that Bush wanted to put a fellow OB/GYN cretin in charge of some Women’s Reproductive ____ committee by the name of Hager. Turns out that he had been anally raping his wife for years, and when she saw him touting his holier than thou stance at some awards ceremony, she lost it and decided to go public.
The Rethugs are a twisted bunch, fer sure!! Did they drink different water during their youth, or what?
Here is the start of an article on Hager, from Alternet, if anyone’s interested…
Dr. Hager’s Family Values
By Ayelish McGarvey, The Nation. Posted May 13, 2005.
As a Bush-appointed adviser to the FDA, Dr. David Hager plays a key role in women’s health policy. Allegations that he abused his former wife call into question his fitness for the job.
Late last October Dr. W. David Hager, a prominent obstetrician-gynecologist and Bush administration appointee to the Advisory Committee for Reproductive Health Drugs in the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), took to the pulpit as the featured speaker at a morning service.
[…]
For Hager, those moral and ethical issues all appear to revolve around sex: In both his medical practice and his advisory role at the FDA, his ardent evangelical piety anchors his staunch opposition to emergency contraception, abortion and premarital sex. Through his six books–which include such titles as Stress and the Woman’s Body and As Jesus Cared for Women, self-help tomes that interweave syrupy Christian spirituality with paternalistic advice on women’s health and relationships–he has established himself as a leading conservative Christian voice on women’s health and sexuality.
[…]
But out in the audience, Linda Carruth Davis–co-author with Hager of Stress and the Woman’s Body, and, more saliently, his former wife of 32 years–was enraged. “It was the most disgusting thing I’ve ever heard,” she recalled months later, through clenched teeth.
According to Davis, Hager’s public moralizing on sexual matters clashed with his deplorable treatment of her during their marriage. Davis alleges that between 1995 and their divorce in 2002, Hager repeatedly sodomized her without her consent.
continued at the Nation or on Alternet~~
Not a problem.
And re RevDeb @74: Lots and lots of smoke.
Well, not being enough to invoke a filing for gift tax purposes wouldn’t keep it off the Fed’s radar screen. The Treasury gets records on wired funds and on each “instrument”, such as a check, that’s in excess of $5000 dollars. (The old rule was $10,000, but that was so 20th century, any well-to-do grandmother or alleged terrorist could “abuse” it.)
The likelihood is that there are records aplenty of monies paid for anyone with authority to look at them, unless it was cash, which would raise its own questions.
Cripes I think I want some Genetic Tests done on all the Kids, the Senator, the parents just how long has the Senator known his friends wife and how long has he supposedly known her biblically because I think he might have known her biblically longer than has been reported.
Only 2 kids get the money that is real interesting pictures of the alledged parents and the Senator and all 3 kids please.
A legitimate member of the clergy might still be obligated not to confirm or deny the substance of any communication or that any communication took place. But Coburn is blowin’ smoke if he hopes to enrage the religious wrong to defend his and Ensign’s adultery damage control under the guise of “healing” him.
Ensign was clearly possessed and doesn’t want to be healed; a good sign Coburn’s senatorial exorcism didn’t take. The amount of political exorcism needed to address these kinds of excesses in DC would exhaust a platoon of Father Merrins. Besides, I don’t think the G’town steps are wide enough to accommodate them all.
In many cases, whether person hearing the statements are in fact a pastor/doctor/lawyer/other is not a determinative factor. The privilege belongs to the speaker of the statement, not the pastor/doctor/lawyer/other. As a result, whether there is a privilege or not often depends on the speaker’s belief that (s)he is talking to someone who is a pastor/doctor/lawyer/other and that the conversation is with that person in his/her capacity as a pastor/doctor/lawyer/other. For example, an attorney/client privilege is created when a client consults with another person thinking that person is an attorney – even if turns out the ‘attorney’ isn’t one.
And because the privilege belongs to the speaker of the statement and not the pastor/doctor/lawyer/other, it is the speaker – not the pastor/doctor/lawyer/other – and the speaker only who can both invoke and waive the privilege. Accordingly, it’s not Sen. Dr. Coburn who gets to decide whether or not he’s permitted to reveal what he knows.
My favorite part of this was Colburn’s statement that he was acting as a physician. And, as you said, he is an OB/GYN. Is there something Ensign wants to tell us?
Coburn seems to show up in all of these sex scandals. What is he the official political pimp specialist?
Well one thing for sure the British tabloids are going to have these “prayer breakfast” meetings wired tighter than the white house from now on. When these scrubs sit around chatting about who is getting laid and how much should the payoff be. Should these hypocrites be allowed to comment on policy and spending.
The rates the known ones pay are fucking stupid. I was in a house about 8 blocks from the white house about 22 years ago and I was staggered to pay something like $150. Even with inflation there is a recession, I’ll bet a straight lay, no bare back, 1/2 hour in Pahrump NV wouldn’t have cost Ensign more than $300 even if he went out with one of the Japanese tour buses (Japanese throw money around in a whorehouse like they got it free.) Ely NV and east of Carson city are a lot cheaper. I don’t know the free market price in the square in Winnemucca or Elko anymore but they have to be cheaper for all these dudes even if they have to charter a jet.
These people make decision affecting millions of lives and they are batshit crazy pussy hounds.