[Welcome George Soros, and Host, Daniel Davies.]
[As a reminder, please take off-topic discussions to the previous thread - bev]
The Crash of 2008, by George Soros.
It must be really quite frustrating for George Soros to see the academic reception given to Nassim Nicholas Taleb. After spending the thirty years since the publication of "The Alchemy of Finance" trying, respectfully and politely, to get academic economists and philosophers to take his ideas seriously to no avail, the success of "The Black Swan" indicates that he had the wrong approach all along. As Taleb has shown, academics are fundamentally masochists and the way to get their attention is to roundly abuse them, and tell them they’re idiots who don’t know what they’re talking about.
"The Crash of 2008" is for the most part still far too polite to mainstream economics (apart from a couple of deliciously acid remarks about the status-insecurity of social science academics), but by the end of it, the evidence assembled about insights missed, predictions screwed up and disaster which could and should have been averted but weren’t, is just as damning as Taleb’s findings about financial risk management.
Now that we’re half way through 2009, the specific predictions and analyses contained in the book are perhaps not the most interesting and important part of it, albeit that it is rather impressive given the dates of publication of the original and revised editions that Soros got so much right so early on. Future historians will presumably note that all of the major features of 2008 – massive seizure of financial markets, recession in G8 but not China, etc – were foreseeable from early March, and also that most of Soros’ policy suggestions (particularly the use of TARP to inject equity capital into banks) ended up being adopted, usually after all the more palatable alternatives had been tried and failed. I think the book is sometimes a bit unfair in suggesting that "economists" as a group missed these predictions – many people did actually make roughly the same predictions as Soros, from Robert Shiller to Paul Krugman – but it is true that those who got it right did so out of a mixture of rough-hewn Keynesianism and ad hoc institutional knowledge rather than anything you find in the textbooks. And perhaps more importantly, those who got it wrong, almost to a man, did so because they were in the grip of "market fundamentalism" – an ideology which is still around and still doing plenty of damage, as any regular reader of Paul Krugman’s blog will be aware.
The meat of the book, though, is that it contains the final and definitive statement of Soros’ theory of "reflexivity", which it’s probably worth setting out in a couple of paragraphs. It is actually possible to locate this idea in a particular tradition of heterodox economics – Jerome Levy in the 1930s, and British "cybernetician" and management theorist Anthony Stafford Beer both come to mind as having perhaps more detailed and thorough models of the economy as a feedback loop – and at times it does get frustrating to see so many wheels reinvented. I practically drove my pencil through the page, for example, on seeing Soros introduce the concept of "the manipulative function" of social science with a quotation from Karl Rove on "making
our own reality" rather than Karl Marx’s line about philosophers interpreting the world when the point is to change it. Even the general principle of feedback from fundamentals to perceptions to altered fundamentals is by no means wholly original – it’s actually the central concept of rational expectations macroeconomics, except that the Chicago School, for largely ideological reasons, presumes that this feedback will always take a specific form of stabilised convergence on a theoretical equilibrium.
However, the wheels are reinvented in pretty interesting ways, and the overall framework is quite attractive. In most general terms, Soros’ principle of reflexivity is an assumption that social systems form anopen feedback loop with no general tendency to be stable, as human actors’ perception of the facts has the effect of changing the (social) reality with which they interact. This happens either through the importance of mutual expectations of social behaviour, or by conscious manipulation of mass politics by people like the two Karls, Marx and Rove. In the particular context of financial markets, this feedback loop shows up as a preponderance of boom and bust cycles.
Naturally, the reflexive theory of financial bubbles is the most detailed example of the general theory. For Soros, two things are needed to create a bubble – some form of financial leverage, and an underlying misconception (a "fertile fallacy") which stops people from realising that the leverage they have taken on is excessive. Plenty of examples are given in the book, from the conglomerate boom of the 1960s to the ERM crisis of 1992 to the LTCM crisis of 1998, all of them, not coincidentally, also being occasions upon which a lot of money made its way in the direction of George Soros. But the Big One here is the "Super Bubble" thesis – that the entire market fundamentalist ideology which came in with Thatcher and Reagan in the
1980s was a massive fertile fallacy, and that the current bust represents the unwind of a leveraging-up process which was nearly thirty years in the making. If this is right, we’ve got a lot more problems in store …
The thing that interests me, though, is that it seems very important to Mr Soros that reflexivity is taken not just as a way of trading the stock market, but as a broader philosophical theory about social science – effectively, a theory of history every bit as universal in scope as dialectical materialism. Which raises the question that’s always bugged me since I first read "Alchemy of Finance"; where’s the falsification in this? Karl Popper’s philosophy of science is clearly fundamental to Soros’ theory, and in the context of stock markets he’s always very clear about the way in which his theses are "tested" by making or losing money. What’s the analogy to a stop-loss order in the political system? Why should we necessarily regard the Bush
administration as the political equivalent of a subprime CDO? That’s what I’m hoping to find out in this book event.



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Mr. Soros, Welcome to the Lake,
Daniel, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Hullo everyone, and obviously a warm welcome to Mr Soros. Thanks very much for the invitation, Bev.
I’d just note that participants in this Book Salon almost certainly have the highest average wealth of any comments thread currently on the internet and I hope FDL have sold premium advertising accordingly! Perhaps we’ll get back to some issues about inequality later on in the Salon, and I would like to discuss some of the philosophical issues I raised in my intro piece, but maybe we can get the ball rolling with a more directly controversial question.
Mr Soros, “The Crash of 2008″ combines some very general and abstract concepts – basically an entire philosophy of history – with some very specific comments and predictions about the here and now. How do these fit together? Put bluntly, how much of the mess we’re in should be blamed on the general fallibility of humanity, and how much on specific and culpable mistakes made in the Anglosphere financial system over the last thirty years?
Mr. Soros, I am pretty sure that I am your biggest fan, at least in Germany. I study finance at the Westfaelische-Wilhelms University at Muenster. I want to know: Will we see another strong bear market in 2009 or is everything over already?
Good afternoon and welcome to FDL Mr. Soros.
Are you aware that your philosophies parallel many of those of W. Edwards Deming, the American that transformed Japan after WW II, especially Reflexivity and “far from equilibrium”?
Your concept of “far from equilibrium” mirrors Deming differentiation of special cause variation(s) from common cause (random) variations.
Your theory of Reflexivity parallels The Deming cycle of: Plan, Do, Study & Act.
Deming’s acknowledge of the “unknown and unknowable” is reflective of your apparent humility as an investor.
Of course! That’s what everyone wants to know! I saw a Reuters story last week that suggested Mr Soros had given an interview to Polish television suggesting that the worst of the financial crisis was over – it was reported as “Soros Calls The Bottom” – was this accurate?
Deming! That’s the name I was looking for in the paragraph above when I was talking about Stafford Beer. Very good spot.
Did we really see the bottom? What do you think Mr Soros?
Hi welcome to the Lake I will try and quote pg numbers from my questions but the quotes might not be exact just letting you know. Also I did not finish the book so some of my questions might be answered later in the book for that I am sorry.
pg1 of introduction
First you contend that financial markets never reflect the underlying reality accurately : they always distort in some way or another and those distortions find expression in market prices
pg2 of introduction
On the one hand they seek to understand the situation the cognitive function
On the other hand they try and change the situation the participating or manipulative function
The two functions work in opposite directions
Granted the act of observing changes the behavior of the object observed
but what about the intention of the manipulator does that not effect the object observed and distort things in a particular way?
A corporate take over for example maybe good or evil but if Chainsaw Dunlap ( spelling?) is involved labor might give in to unexpected cuts to save jobs.
If Toyota with their hesitation to lay people off wanted to take over GM labor might not be so quick to compromise heck they might welcome and help the takeover.
An other example a republican might poo poo global warming and invest in oil companies the Peak Oil Problem does make this attractive
Bur because of his bias and yes it is a bias directly in the face of science
he might ignore green stocks in his search for stocks out of hand.Vestas wind systems has grown more than Exxon Mobile during the Bush years and has held value better than Exxon even after the banking crisis.
Evil Chainsaw Dunlap or just Willful Ignorance can change things so can Good acts like my fictional example of Toyota.
I wonder if you should add good and evil to your philosophy. That and Hubris pride of being greater than the Gods. Bush was prideful and never questioned if what he was doing was working in the face of defeats he thought men of will hold out despite the world very Nazi Nietzeche
The GOP is always quick to point out to us times where Liberal pride resulted in support for social programs that don’t work and we kept supporting them.
Mr. Soros,
Since the Chinese Government is a major shareholder in most public Chinese companies and it controls the currency, do you have any concerns about the credibility of the financial statements of Chinese companies?
Mr. Soros,
To your knowledge, didn’t the DOL change how it calculates the unemployment % in the 1990’s? My understanding is that the unemployment rate under the former method is approximately 16.5% versus 9.5%. Shouldn’t the level of unemployment, not the stock market decline distinguish a depression from a recession?
Daniel, As Mr. Soros is answering the first question, Daniel could you give us a bit of your background?
Speaking from experience as a Quality Assurance professional for over 20 years, there are large numbers of companies that pay lip service to using PDCA.
Most don’t actually use it however. They just say they do.
Mr Soros, I cringe when I hear you called an investor because you are a speculator. The huge majority of what are called investments in todays world are in fact speculation. I define speculation as anything where the majority of the hoped for or expected return comes from the increased price of the asset.
Speculation can’t be eliminated but should be discouraged. It is destructive in many ways. Systematically for the economy and morally. At this point why do you still speculate.
Sure of course – basically I’m a stockbroker and economist and a long time Soros “fan” (the 1969 note on REITS is a classic example of equity research). I blog at Crooked Timber and on the Guardian’s “Comment is Free” website. I’m trying to keep the financial jargon to a minimum, but if I start descending into gibberish please say!
The general theory only provides general policy prescriptions. For example, since markets are bubble prone regulators ought to accept responsibility to prevent bubles rom growing too big. They should control credit as well as money supply. There ought to be firewalls within financial institutions separating depositors money from the firm’s own capital to prevent contagion from spreading. My specific recommendations on cds are also derived from the general theory but they are subject to specific judgments I myself vacillate between confining CDS to owners of the underplaying bond and disallowing them altogether
George and Dan, any comment on economic thinking from sociologists, eg Harrison White’s “Markets from Networks”?
In fairness, it should be noted that Mr Soros has always referred to himself as a speculator (one chapter of the book is called “Autobiography of a Successful Speculator”). I think the general question of the morality of speculation is an interesting one – if I remember correctly it was discussed in “The Alchemy of Finance”, but I’d also be interested in any comments Mr Soros had.
page X or 10 of introduction
If we assume that good and evil have parts to play the lack of regulation ( or the lack of a Mom willing to enforce some rules on a self destructive teenager and pay for therapy ) that lets bubbles expand until disaster might be better explained by Freud’s Thantos Death instinct. The greater the pleasure/ illusion of profit the greater the disregard for the danger?
On that question I’m not qualified to speculate. Your thoughts positive and negative please.
i was not aware, no
We know that Efficient Market Hypothesis doesn’t work and I heard that you, Mr. Soros, do not think that human psychology drives the global markets, like Akerlof says, either. Is there any other model in-between?
George, how does complexity economics/agent-based computational economics/Sante Fe relate to your thinking?
Since my theory claims that financial markets are unpredictable, I will not try to predict them. That said
Good afternoon Mr. Soros & thank you for visiting the Lake. My question, why do you think Krugman, Steglitz & every economist who recommended a larger stimulus were ignored by a Dem adm & Congress?
I see. Is it really possible to control credit though? One can certainly see echoes of your reflexivity and fallibility principles in Charles Goodhart’s Law (”any monetary aggregate which is used as a tool of policy becomes irrelevant to the economy”). At the end of the day, if people want to borrow a lot of money to invest in projects, there’s not much that the government can or arguably should do about that. We also had a pretty large bubble in dot com stocks which was largely equity financed (albeit that I personally think it still follows your model of leverage, given the massive divorce of the stock values from equilibrium). What do you think of people like Dan Gross, who think that bubbles are a vital part of economics development (particularly, weblogs like FDL are basically in existence today because of money invested in a massive bubble in the 1990s!)
Mr. Soros, I saw you speak at the New America Foundation a few months ago and I thought you were brilliant. I just hope your ideas receive the debate they deserve.
pg X or 10 of introduction.
The greater the stakes in keeping the bubble going the more investors act like junkies looking to keep the high going even though their actions are self destructive? The Manipulative then trumps the Cognitive?
Belief over Reality?
Or is it Cognitive dissonance perhaps?
Cognitive Dissonance
Dissonance normally occurs when a person perceives a logical inconsistency among his or her cognitions. This happens when one idea implies the opposite of another. For example, a belief in animal rights could be interpreted as inconsistent with eating meat or wearing fur. Noticing the contradiction would lead to dissonance, which could be experienced as anxiety, guilt, shame, anger, embarrassment, stress, and other negative emotional states. When people’s ideas are consistent with each other, they are in a state of harmony, or consonance. If cognitions are unrelated, they are categorized as irrelevant to each other and do not lead to dissonance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Is the GOP’s hate on beaucracy a manifestion of the Thantos or death instinct they are willing to ride the high to keep getting high but they do not want to acknowledge that they might die or become poor if there where no restrictions on financial markets or business in general.
I’m sure lots of Pork executives are worrying about swine flu for example the bankers seem to still be in denial that they have a problem time for some tough love CEO pay limits?
Daniel — thank so much for that fantastic introduction and for hosting today’s discussion.
And George — do you think there is any possibility of re-regulation a la Glass Steagall (which was enacted during the Depression the last time around, and then dismantled in the late 1990s/early 2000s along with a lot of the banking regulations)? Or is there some other method of oversight which you think would be more effective at this point? And, if so, what would that be?
This actually brings me on to one of the things I’ve always liked about your books – the way you grab the bull by the horns and make specific predictions in real time, then tell us what happened. I think it’s quite ironic that the two most prominent critics of modern finance are yourself and Nicholas Taleb, and that on the one hand, he says it’s impossible to make predictions about anything, and you’re always making predictions. I’ve got a few things to ask about this, but the reader questions are coming in so thick and fast that I’d probably better wait!
Speculation and investment are difficult to separate. To be flipant, I could define “investment” as a speculation that has gone wrong. By the way, I have once again retired from actively managing my fund.
Mr. Soros:
The Citigroup balance sheet shows cash or equivalents of 646 biilion in December 07 and then in December 08 200 billion of cash or equivalents.
The 646 billion in 2007 had grown from 462 billion in December 2006.
And yet no investigation by the SEC into the bonuses which were paid based upon way over valued assets orchestrated by Rubin and company. Why is this not a main event?
Page XIV or 14 of introduction
Why is Countrywide’s CEO not in jail? Cripes steal from a liquor store $20 bucks there is no question you do time! Whats bigger in Dollar loss terms White Collar or Traditional Crime? How can we expect a transparent financial system if White Collar crime is Penalized and Prosecuted less than regular crime?
Investors need to feel safe about where they put their money don’t they?
In answer to your question about “the GOP’s hate on bureaucracy” (great phrase!), one of the later chapters of the book is quite interesting on this. The basic reason that the GOP became so committed to the markets good/government bad ideology is that it did so well for them, for such a long time – they were in power for about three quarters of the period 1980-2008, and looked completely dominant for a large part of that time. It’s what the book calls a “fertile fallacy” – one that delivers huge amounts of positive reinforcement, before it finally falls apart.
Why is it do you think, when asset prices increase, be it stocks or real estate, but not commodities, is it never called inflation but an increase in value. The DOW went from 1000 to 14000 and I never heard anyone said it inflated.
Mr. Soros,
I enjoyed reading your book. Do you think the increased regulations by the CFTC will help decrease commodities speculation, especially oil. Won’t oil traders just go to the London Oil Exchange instead?
My theory of reflexivity recognizes that reality can be manipulated but the results will not necessarily correspond to the intentions of the manipulator because of her imperfect understanding. One should recognize that reality is beyond our understanding yet we should try to get as close to it as possible.
Mr. Soros,
Thank you for visiting us here at the lake.
You have generously funded a number of progressive causes over the years. I’m wondering, on a personal level, are there any projects or endeavors that you are particularly proud of supporting?
Mr. Soros, Did you stop managing your fund so that you could make time to write your book or were there other reasons?
With respect to the remark about an investment being “a speculation that has gone wrong”, one of the things that interests me as someone who’s also involved in the markets is: how does it feel, psychologically, to be making an investment/speculation on a trend that you fundamentally believe to be irrational? I can understand people who buy, say, real estate because they think it’s going up for ever, and people who think it’s a bubble and sell it short (though most of the latter group tend to lose their funds and their jobs before being proved right, for the reasons you set out in the book about the difficulty of short selling).
But what’s it like to have a theory that something’s a bubble, but to buy it anyway in the belief that you’re going to be able to switch sides before anyone else? As I read the autobiographical sections, this is how you made a lot of your money, but it seems to me that it’s a very psychologically taxing way to trade.
what is the deal with the trading codes that were stolen from Goldman,by the Russian guy?
International markets require international regulation.
Do you sense that the financial industry has a sense that there might be something fundamentally wrong with their approach to business?
i always say they need to open all the prison gates.the real criminals are outside
They seem to have bought into behaviorial economics, but that recognizes only one half of reflexivity. It does not explore how mispricing can affect the fundamentals.
This is in the book. Basically, Mr Soros retired from active fund management in order to devote time to his philanthropic foundations; the funds remained in existence but were put out to outside managers and managed on a more “conservative” basis as endowment funds rather than hedge funds. In 2007 he realised something big was on the way, and decided that the funds were going to need a lot more active steering if they were to preserve capital in 2008-9 – since they made single digit positive returns for 2008 FY, when other big high-profile endowments were losing 30% of the money it looks like a good decision in retrospect!
What body would have the legitimacy for such regulation?
Should Summers and Geithner be fired now or later?
Do you think that the era of Hedgefunds is over?
Mr. Soros, at the New America Foundation you said that you thought it was necessary that we move to fix our health care system without delay. Is there any particular solution that you prefer?
Mr. Soros,
In your opinion, should the U.S. Tax system provide long-term capital gain treatment for investment in foreign assets, unproductive assets or reverse ETFs (in substance short positions?
Don’t credit default swaps create a false sense of consequence free risk taking?
Don’t they encourage speculation?
Rupert Murdoch of Fox News bought the WallStreet Journal recently I presume he used his companies stock as collateral that stock has gone down from $32.60 a share on Feb 9, 2007 $12.40 a share today
http://www.google.com/finance?q=ASX:NWS
So just when are the banks going to ask him for more collateral since his stock is in the tank? Enron got called out for this are the banks now forgiving rich guy loans to prevent a stock market collapse while they screw homeowners.
Thank you, Mr. Soros.
There is already a de facto global bank regulator in the form of the Basel committees; the corresponding international commissions of securities regulators are more decentralised, but they could quite easily be put on a firmer legal footing. The real obstacle here is the USA – Europe has worked out a lot of the cross-border issues in negotiating the Single Market in financial services, but the USA still has a patchwork of state-level banking and securities regulators, plus an alphabet soup of federal regulators. It’s a bit distressing that the recent government proposals haven’t really addressed this – I suspect that we have not seen our last major revision of the regulatory system.
Credit can be controlled by using tools such as margin requirements for markets and minimum capital requirements for banks. The requirements should be varied to counteract the prevailing mood of the market.
Mr.Soros,Did you know Bernard Madoff?
pass the popcorn!
Thanks very interesting now we just need to explain that concept to Larry Kudlow and Laffer:)
I suggest we use very small words.
The Democracy Alliance, the ACLU and many others. I am proud of the work of the Open Society Institute in general.
I feel most comfortable when I see a bubble developing and also understand the flaw in it because that understanding will help me to get out in time.
Interesting but is that really so much of a problem? It has always seemed more of a straw man to justify NOT doing something than an actual trouble spot.
And it seems the off-shore tax havens tend to be as much or more problematic and troubling.
But I might be an idiot.
I have no idea
Thank you very much. (an aside for readers – the idea that regulators should take a view on the mood of the market sounds pretty shocking today, but the policy Mr Soros is describing is what the Federal Reserve actually did up until the 1970s, and the story of how that institution systematically lost its nerve and decided to abandon everything to “the markets” is both an interesting one in itself and fundamental to the development of the “Super-Bubble”.)
Permitting myself a small indulgence in terms of financial jargon, I’d note that to use margin requirements in this way would require some really quite stringent restrictions on what kind of products could be traded, and would probably require that there be central reporting of all positions – as far as I can see, it would basically be the end of OTC derivatives markets. But Mr Soros’ view on this is completely clear from the book, and from his published comments on Credit Default Swaps, so I’ll leave this as an aside, particularly since there are so many reader questions!
It is interesting and disconcerting that guys like Kudlow are still beating that dead horse. It would be laughable if it weren’t so poisonous.
I am afraid they are already starting to forget it.
Actually, that’s an interesting question; with respect to some of the institutions you helped build around 2004-2006 (I’m thinking of the CAP, American Constitutional Society, America Votes, etc), what do you think about the way they’ve developed, and the role they’re playing now, in a very different environment so far as partisan politics goes?
Yes and for Mitt Romney to, his hedgefund Bain Capital bought Clearchannel let go of a bunch of people then gave Rush a huge raise.
Mitt just sold 2 of his four mansions recently which in this real estate market suggests he is hurting maybe the banks asked him to cough up more collateral? Why him and not Rupert?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..67601.html
To follow up on yellowsnapdragon’s question (and touch on some issues that a friend mentioned in conversation), you helped fund a lot of semi-partisan organizations in 2005-2006, such as CAP, the American Constitutional Society, America Votes etc. How do you think this venture into partisan politics worked out? What do you think of the role that these organizations are playing today?
No, I think proprietary trading will migrate from investment banks to hedge funds (where it belongs) because salaries at investment banks are being regulated. Investment banks were running hedge funds with other people’s money.
Mr. Soros. I am a former investment banker myself, and I have been a fan of yours throughout my decade-and-a-half career in that industry. A growing concern of mine relates to an area far outside of my realm of expertise, and it relates to American political economy – specifically the issue of institutional capacity. I have become increasingly concerned that the institutional and political structures we have to work with to address (much less regulate) the myriad, accumulated problems in our financial and corporate system aren’t up to the task anymore – the lobbyist-dominated legislature, the relevant agencies of the executive branch that have, to some extent, come to be a revolving door for less-than-disinterested industry participants, and a media that sometimes cultivates, intentionally or not, misundertandings of the underlying economic and political systems among members of the public. My fear is that taken together these interest-group dominated groups no longer have the capacity to see through their own private interests and biases to see apprehend, anticipate and respond to the various crises we face. I’m wondering whether you have any thoughts on this fear of mine. Am I being too pessimistic? What needs to change?
And broadening out the issue, in the book you have some quite pessimistic things to say about the way in which public culture has developed, and in particular the general level of honesty and respect for the truth (the “manipulative function” versus the “cognitive function”). What’s the role of the media industry as it’s currently organised in this state of affairs? How would you like to see the media organised and financed? As someone who clearly has strong ideas about politics and public discourse, have you ever been tempted to buy a newspaper and become a “press baron” in the traditional sense?
the plot thickens,i wonder when the investing public will just give upon Wall Street.And just roll into Vegas or Monte Carlo
Apologies – Daniel and I are repeating the same question (because we were involved in the same conversation with the same person)
pg XV or 15 of introduction
(sounds like a junkie)
(replace Mortgage Lenders with whores and it sounds like something the guy who wrote “ the man with the Golden Arm “ would write
Anyway my mom would say you are hitting Greenspan with the White Glove. Greenspan should have pulled the spiked punch bowl is what your saying? How and when should the punch bowl been pulled or was it a mistake to spike the punch bowl with low interest rates in the first place?
No.
wonder if they could stomach the hair down here with us mere mortal…..g
Thank you Mr Soros.
Yes, this is discussed in part 3 of the new edition (the “Super-Bubble”). As you suggest, Mr Soros’ view is basically that the punch bowl should have been taken away, although as noted above, he would have advised the Federal Reserve to address this through specific policies directed at the banks (like margin requirements – for nontechnical readers, the margin requirement is basically a restriction on how much money you can borrow to invest in securities) rather than through interest rate policy per se.
I am working in a non-profit German college organization, “Muensteraner Boersenparkett”. You are officially invited to address a speech to our members :) It’s my birthday at July 10th
It is hard to get a man to understand something when his paycheck demands him not to understand.
I am very pleased their development, before 2004 there was very little infrastructure on the progressive side. With these institutions we are leveling the playing field. I would make the same reply to question 67.
Acorn, Ninja loans, or Variable Mortgages like Greenspan pushed or normal mortgages with 10% down pre bubble what Percentage of these loans have already or are likely to go down soon?
What is the percentage of bank losses these loans are causing?
I find it Funny that as the numbers were still coming in John McCain latched on to ACORN as the cause.
Did he have any real numbers at the time to back him up? Lefty Blogs can’t refute stuff without good numbers was I not expert enough to find them? The GOP has no problem making stuff up because the Press never calls them on it this hurts us in debates.
I think it’s a bit simplistic to assume that people like Kudlow only say these things because they’re bought and paid for. The theory in “Crash of 2008″ is a lot more subtle in explaining how these ideologies take hold. Remember, for most of Larry Kudlow’s life, his philosophy of “buy, buy, always be long and wave a flag while you’re doing it” has delivered the goods for him, professionally and financially. When a habit’s been reinforced as positively as that for as long, it’s very difficult to unlearn.
I’d recommend Felix Salmon’s blog (felixsalmon.com) for exhaustive discussion of the role of CRA in causing the subprime crisis (summary – none).
I share your concern. Although Congress is nominally controlled by Democrats, it is subject to the influence of special interests. I am distressed by the extent to which Obama’s program is being diluted.
Hi George. The media is the tool for rxtending bubbles and policies of over leveraging risk. Have you tried to get together a consortium of investors to buy a big chunck of the MSM and change the messaging?
That would address many myths both economic and political.
Thanks for coming here.
Banks had a math model of home mortgage failures what was the failure rate the rating agencies assumed when they rated the debt? Whats the current rate of Failure? As more mortgages fail how much and when will the banks need more cash?
Is there still a market for CDO’s CMO’s etc What do you think the level of bank leverage should be? Do Micro loans make better sense than Payday loans? I hear they got great repayment rates how do they compare with payday loans for profitabilty?
Should we get rid of Derviatives, Credit Default Swaps? ?
Thank You.
but whyis that,because,he had the benefit ofinside information,?Is his paycheck larger than his portfolio…he is not by definition an ordinary investor
With respect to getting rid of Credit Default Swaps, see Mr Soros’ comment #15 above.
That explains those employed by the corporate controlled media!
damn sticky keyboard!
Media is a reflection of society, so you have the same problems as in the political sphere. On top of that, you had deregulation and thus concentration, which is not good. As for becoming a media tycoon– about which others have asked–that is a business for which I am not qualified. I would hate to compete with Murdoch and loose money while he profits!
No, not really – it’s just that Kudlow is the epitome of a mindless permabull who always buys and never sells, and it happens to be the case that for most of his career, the market’s gone up. I very much doubt he has ever had inside information, and indeed doubt he would know what to do with it if he had – if you gave Kudlow some inside information that he ought to sell a stock, he’d just say “nah, you’re wrong, buy buy buy, yay America!”.
I do agree that LK is a totally unconstructive presence in the media and that he is a negative source of information (ie, listening to him makes you stupider), but it’s important to realise why people like that find an audience, and I think Mr Soros’ book is quite good on the underlying psychology and sociology of it.
What a better world we would have if George Soros owned NewsCorp, Fox News, Wall Street Journal, Directv and etc.
Suppose Dems pushed through a bill that said we could choose what cable channels we wanted to pay for? I gave up basic cable because I can’t give money to Fox News or CNN for basic cable (Lou Dobbs anti Immigrant rants) incited the Minute Men to kill that that nine year old Hispanic girl and shooting Nation Wide.
Anyway assuming that most Hispanics would drop CNN and Fox like a stone if they had a choice and considering the organization and size of the Immigration Marches vs the Tea Baggers turn out I think we can do this.
What would the effect of millions of Hispanics and Lefties leaving have on Fox News and CNN’s stock price?
The GOP is all for Free Markets right I should not have to pay for Fools to insult me!
Cripes its like Forcing Jews to pay to watch a Hitler speech.
see my earlier answer: that is a business for which I am not qualified. I would hate to compete with Murdoch and loose money while he profits!
Thanks Again:)
thats my belief
when Maria Money Honey flys all over on corporate jets…its hard for her to be impartial
sorry forgive me,i dont buy it
Hello George,
I’m Joe Firestone, one of the pre-publication readers of your excellent, The Age of Fallibility. I wanted to make a few comments on some of the comments so far. First, while Taleb’s work is really entertaining, of great interest, has a lot of good in it which I’ve written about here, and is also Popperian in its overall orientation, unlike yours, I don’t think it provides much of a guide to future action or even coherent explanation of what’s occurred in the past. Second, on the point made by Daniel about falsification and Popper, I think it’s important to note that falsification is often a matter of looking at competing theories and viewing events in relation to them to see which ones still survive our tests and criticisms. You’ve made specific predictions in the past few years about what would happen to the economy in the future, and those predictions can be compared with the predictions made by the equilibrium theorists running the Federal Reserve, the Treasury Department, the Council of Economic Advisors and other major institutions, as well as many academics. Your predictions have performed very well relative to these competitors and to the facts. I think Popper would call what has happened a corroboration of your ideas about bubbles in economics and would say that predictions based on equilibrium models and theories had been falsified.
Daniel asks about stop losses in politics. I think the election of 2008 was a falsification for Karl Rove’s theory that the reality can be endlessly manipulated by propaganda such that cognition can always be influenced not to recognize reality. True, it took a long time for reality to make itself felt. Much too long for most who post here. But Republican support experienced the same kind of collapse in the body politic as the economic bubble did in the global system, as I think you also predicted in some of your applications of reflexivity to the political system.
Third, a comment on Deming’s Plan Do Study Act, or Plan Do Check Act Cycle, and its relation to your reflexivity theory. In reflexivity, you cognitive and manipulative functions are put forward as in simultaneous interaction. However, in Deming cycles the steps are sequential. In my own Decision Execution Cycle (DEC), the steps are also sequential, as they are in other examples of organizational learning cycles put forward by other thinkers, including John Boyd’s OODA Loop, which is currently very influential in military and intelligence circles. My question is, are you right in postulating simultaneous reflexivity? Doesn’t it take time for actions we take to feedback through the system to affect both the thoughts and writings of others and our own? And if reflexivity is not simultaneous, what are the implications of that for your new paradigm?
It’s worth noting, of course, that George Soros is, quite famously, a graduate of the London School of Economics. The LSE was founded out of a bequest for an institution “to promote the cause of socialism”, but the Webbs (who wanted to set up a proper university) managed to get round the lawyers for the deceased by telling them that it was inevitable that an honest process of inquiry would end up promoting socialism. I think there’s a sort of parable there that what progressive causes need are more institutions that actually tell the truth as they see it, rather than simply adopting the methods of Fox News but with someone else in charge (not that I’m accusing you of suggesting otherwise – I just like that anecdote about the LSE too much to not force it into an otherwise unrelated discussion!)
HaHaHa…rotfl
I think Rupert might be over extended on his credit the banks can’t cover him forever I think he will start selling media properties soon.
Excellent comments Joe. I’d be very interested in the answers – I’d note that in Stafford Beer’s Viable Systems Approach which I cited above, one of the strengths of the model is that the Policy, Intelligence and Cohesion functions are meant to operate simultaneously (or as near as possible).
maybe, but the financial graveyards are full of people who staked it all on betting against Rupert Murdoch!
George,
What has most heartened you and disappointed you re President Obama’s administration so far? Do you lthink Summers and Geithner will still be part of this administration in 2012?
having a lot of money and power does not equal human being success
Well the right-wing radio hosts believe that you ARE funding everyone and everything that challenges them. Melanie Morgan, Lee Rodgers* and Brian Sussman on KSFO in San Francisco think that you funded my campaign alerting their advertisers about their violent rhetoric that cost them 28 advertisers and millions of dollars.
Could you please go on record and tell them that you did NOT fund me and then after that, could you please START funding me? Thank you.
Live Long and Prosper
Mr. Spocko
http://www.spockosbrain.com (Google spocko and New York Times or UK Guardian to see what I’m talking about)
*Lee Rodgers was the host who
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200702270014
They never apologized but had their program director say “These statements are not accurate, and KSFO regrets that they were broadcast”
I think he’ll start selling the Grade D possessions, eg the NY Post. With the WSJ,what does he need with the Post?
Are they already starting to forget it because of the Obama Administration’s approach to the financial system bailout and to regulatory reform?
George and Daniel,
I’m wondering if either of you has a perspective on another political economy issue: are we looking at the end of the Bretton Woods/Washington-Consensus economic development framework (which relied on monetary reforms, rapid deregulation and marketization, and then, as far as I understand how it actually worked, trickle-down, to put it crassly.. with a huge divide in terms of the role of developed “mature” economies like the US and those who had the misfortune of being developed under the rules of this system), as many pundits seem to be suggesting? Is there a replacement paradigm? Is the dollar at any real risk of being replaced as the global reference currency… especially seeing as recent events seem to suggest that the most “mature” economy in the world was less than, and has recently displayed many of the operational characteristics of less developed ones?
The markets were expanding then, Reagan was a hero, the GOP was ascendant. If Obama gets us real National Healthcare and fixes the economy well outside of the blogs where can people go to get News, not Corporate Hate news?
Since this is the second mention of Deming, I will have to take a look at his work.
Different Newspapers serve Different Markets readers of the NY Post probably never read the WSJ.
As I have said, I think Obama is doing a good job except that I feel there has not been enough of a break with the past in the handling of the financial crisis.
As we come to the end of this great Book Salon,
Mr. Soros, Thank you very much for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book and the financial crisis.
Daniel, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Everyone, if you have not bought Mr. Soros’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
Sarah Palin would sue over this.
not a question, simply observations follow
even lay people were talking about this crash long before 2008, most of us for about three years
thom hartmann was spot on in every regard and he’s no economist, he predicted every burst balloon as well as the cuase and effect
for about three years I have been saying;
“real wages are down and “depressed, real investment in american goods are down and depressed, real assets are down and depressed, everyone’s savings is down and depressed and american’s borrowed more then they make for the first time since the great depression
it was clear to quite a few of us lay people that we were in a depression not a recession and that we were in one for some time
I personally believe “the crash of 2008″ was not a crash at all, it was the realization that borrowing more then assets were worth is not a viable economic strategy, and borrowing more then you were worth was the only way people had the illusion that we were not in a depression.
there is a sad happiness when your statements of such negativity are proven true
three or four years ago when I was telling everyone the economy was about to collapse I sure hoped I was wrong, I am not “happy” that I was right but there is a certain vindication anyway
I saw the middle class collapsing as a whole directly from the policies of reagan, redistributing middle class assets and giving them to the wealthy
then I saw him redistribute tax burden, giving even more burden to the middle class and lessening that burden from those who carried least burden in the first place, the upper class
I have pointed out that the lower and middle class pay a far higher percentage of wage to taxes even back before reagan when the progressive tax was a little more comenserate
when a middle class wage earner has to spend their entire salary their entire salary is taxed far more then those who spend a portion of their salary, and this includes considering the progressive tax as it stood before reagan redistibuted middle class assets
and there’s the problem as well, trying to make the tax code more equitable the politicians use non starter marketing strategy like “we’re going to tax the wealthy”
a big mistake
that should be marketed like so;
the wealthy have been the recipient of middle class assets in the form of tax give away, since reagan
this was marketed as some kind of economic investment that was supposed to return higher dividends then they cost
of course the reverse was true, not only did these give aways not return positive dividend, they demonstratably cost the economy FAR more then the actual gift
for instance, a tax redistribution from those who already pay the least, (the upper class) of say 100 dollars not only costs that 100 dolars in revenue, it also costs the economy in dollars not spent back into the economy SINCE the upper class already buys everything they need, any added funds does not get returned to the economy at all
so where the democrats and mostly obama are missing the boat is this should not be marketed as “taxing the wealthy”
that’s a non starter
it should be marketed as;
“reclaiming investments that have demonstrated negative return”
bing
Dr W Edwards Deming wiki
Thanks for coming by George:)
Thank you to all of you for this conversation; I am signing off now.
Merkins are lazy thinkers imo,easy to go with the flow
Well, my opinion on this trades at something of a discount to the world’s most successful global macro investor, but I’d say that the Washington Consensus is dead and has been since 2000 (when Nestor Kirchner told the IMF to pound sand and nothing bad happened), but that Bretton Woods is basically still with us. At the end of the day, what I think people don’t appreciate enough is that as a matter of accounting, it is not possible for a country to both be the supplier of global reserve assets, and to run a surplus itself; the US dollar’s role as the global reference asset and the USA’s structural deficit are two sides of the same coin. And realistically, where is the alternative candidate for global hegemon? So I think that the dollar is here to stay (I think Mr Soros disagrees but the relevant part of the book is quite long and involved and I wouldn’t swear that I fully understood it).
With regard to whether trickle-down economics worked, I’d fall back on one of Stafford Beer’s slogans – “the purposes of a system is what it does”. The WC system worked very well if you assumed that it was a method for ensuring that global net capital flows between developed and developing countries continued to move in the direction of the developed world. If it was meant to do anything else, it failed disastrously.
Thanks Mr. Soros
Everyone around here is well-aware that Summers and Geithner are not the right guys for their respective jobs.
Thanks very much, Bev! It’s been really interesting.
True, but now that he has his #1 target in a huge world marketplace and the Post readers are already well-defined and not going anywhere, Murdoch knows his work is done with the latter. He’s also losing lots of millions with the NYP.
Thanks for stopping in Mr. Soros. I look forward to starting to get those checks I’ve been accused of getting for the last 3 years. You can contact me at
spockosemail @ gmail . com and I’ll give you address and bank info :-)
Spocko
Thank you,for your time Mr.Soros
Daniel,
As near as possible is still a bit different from simultaneity in relation to epistemological implications.
Thanks for reminding me, meant to mention to Mr. Soros that I haven’t rec’d my check recently.
Hehehe. Gotta give it a go, eh spocko?!
you have been saying this for three years. Many here can attest to that. I remember when you were me to me.
spocko did america a service going after those right wing terrists. It’s only natural they would drag Soros or robert redford into it as major bogeyman. Anything to incite radical-right nutjobs.
Interesting that Soros didn’t address whether Summers/Geithner would still be in their jobs in 2012. That would have been a pretty good read into how he sees Obama’s thought process inre to learning “on the job.”
Here’s to spocko!
And spocko, I remember that the letters you wrote to KGO that were posted online were exceptionally well written.
Thanks for your response, which I think is a very informed and wise one. I don’t think that there is another potential replacement reference currency out there, but I take note of the rumblings in support of a supranational instrument, perhaps based on a re-weighted IMF drawing right. I guess my question is do we need a hegemon, especially in a world where the benefits of economic growth seem to be moving increasingly in a multipolar direction? Removing the US from that role might potentially free us to pursue a better and more sustainable balance between our capital and current accounts, although both the math and structure of such a replacement supranational regime eludes me. Of course the dollar would continue to be very heavily weighted in whatever supranational instrument emerges from any process of negotiation, but with the potential for re-weighting, perhaps we can gain more flexibility to deal with our own structural problems without so unequivocally putting at risk the rest of the planet in the process.
I actually wish that Mr. Soros had sued them. It pisses me off that the right wing noise machine on talk radio is protected from any defamation as if they were legit journalists.
I remember a time when being called a Communist was something that would cost you your career. The right counts on us on the left to defend them saying the most horrible things possible about people. They use laws created for journalists to defame. They are NOT journalists, yet they get all the protections without the responsibilities.
When Carol Burnett sued the tabloids and won that put them on notice that there are consequences for defamation. I know the legit press worry that laws that favor the person being defamed will tie them up in court for eons, but right-wing radio is not even trying to avoid slander and libel because they know nobody will sue, and if they do, people on the left will mock them or support the right-wing radio people saying, “I don’t like that they called him a Nazi sympathizer, but he has his right to free speech.”
I don’t like Sarah Palin and saying that Hillary got it worse is not really a good response. The world of Lee Attwater and Karl Rove that makes smearing people acceptable is a crummy world. Could their at least be some consequences or recourse for the people being attacked when the accusations are so blatantly wrong and offensive? I am especially concerned about calls to violently kill people. I believe even the staunches free speech supporters see that falls into the “falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater” category.
Of course, Deming’s work in Japan is the basis of the quality movement. Deming developed his ideas, in part, through serious study of the philosophy of pragmatism and serious work in the Roosevelt Administration in developing new manufacturing methods in the Training Within Industries (TWI)Service. After the New Deal was gone, MacArthur brought him over to Japan to help in kick starting the post-war Japanese economy. It’s a historical irony that the basis for Kaizen techniques was, in many ways, American Pragmatism. The story is told in abbreviated form in Matthew May’s The Elegant Solution.
You’re right. The “dirty tricks” of the Nixon (/Cheney/Rumsfeld) era have now graduated to thug death knells for anyone that dares oppose.
They sure don’t talk much about the Atwater death bed mea culpas for his dastardly deeds, which could be read as either seeing the ultimate light or cowering in the face of eternal damnation.
THANX for remembering that hackworth, ya, I’ve been “me to me”, then “perris, formerly me to me” and then perris
tee hee
Wow !!!!
Thanks George, and Daniel, it’s hard to think of a Book Salon I’ve enjoyed as much as this one.
You could have charged admission.
Thank you. I figured out that the person I was appealing to (the VP of marketing, VP of HR and VP of Communications) would be as disgusted by their violent rhetoric as I was. And I pointed out that it was tainting their brand.
Economically talk radio is very vulnerable right now. The stations are overwhelmed by debt and it might not take much for advertisers to go to other venues. Citadel Broadcasting lost millions on KSFO (not KGO) after the campaign and that was what drove Melanie Morgan off the air, she wasn’t able to be a martyr for her violent ”free speech” just a money losing host with a potential for future losses.
The key to having an impact on right wing talk radio is showing the advertisers the hosts are LIABILITIES not assets. Do YOU want to be the advertiser the next time Savage attacks autistic kids?
The beauty of alerting advertisers is that it doesn’t become a free speech issue. It takes it into the ”free market” world instead. They can’t be whining ”You are trying to censure us!” Instead they have to convince the advertisers that they won’t be racists, sexist, violent again–which few can manage.
If I could get Mr. Soros to fund me I could coordinate more of this kind of action. I’ve already done it by helping Hatehurtsamerica.org and their campaign against Savage’s vicious anti-Muslim comments. The right wing has a 24/7 platform for propaganda. The platform is paid for by sponsors. If they didn’t have it they would have to actually buy their own ads occasionally, instead of getting all the editorial for free.
Defunding talk radio via advertisers is something that corporations worry about more than some mythical return to the fairness doctrine.
So true. I think the lesson that Rove learned from that was, “Don’t get cancer.” (Kind of like the lesson Cheney learned from Nixon was “Don’t tape anything and don’t get caught.”)
The gov’t is limited by Constitutional Law and in terms of the specific agencies and kinds of things it can do.
What new things would you suggest?
GS,
Is it possible that the GOP planned this recession? If the dems got health care I assume their party would grow in huge numbers. It does seem to be hurting the union workers and Dem states quite badly.
I think the republicans were working towards that “permanent republican majority” they wanted and it is easier to do with a bankrupt country. Did GW appoint incompentents to reach this goal? He did say being pres would be easier if it was a dictatorship, he gave an award to a man at the WH and the guy said he wished GW could run for a 3rd term and (GW had a big smile on his face) and GW said that he was being forced into retirement. GW said it should be easier for minorities and the poor to get mortgages then we get a mortgage crisis. GOP’s constant mantra on no taxes/lower taxes and now many states are deep in the red. For instance, in CA Gray Davis wanted to have a higher tax and was thrown out of office. Now look how broke CA (and many other states) is after lowering taxes for so many years. It would seem that this could have been planned. I think gov and political parties look out and plan for 5, 10, 20 yrs out.