Read it and weep optimists. A month ago the "green shoots" narrative was everywhere. Those "green shoots" have been eaten by the panda, and squashed flat by speculators in resources. It is time for Congress to wake up, and smell the depression. The only post-war downturns comparable to this one in severity are the 1948-49 recession, which was thought of as "mild" because it was compared at the time to the Great Depression, the 1937 Recession, and the Demobilization Recession.
It is useful to compare the present downturn with the 1948 recession because there are parallels in the numbers, both here and abroad. First, both were driven by money drying up: personal consumption rose in the 1948 recession; what dried up was private investment and inventories: they fell by 14.7% and 12.6% in 1949 respectively, but then bounced back by 21% and 13.7%. That’s what a crisis of confidence looks like. The 1948-49 recession was a test of what was then called "The New Economy:" driven by consumer demand, automatic stabilization, internal combustion engines, and a population spreading out through the country. The present downturn is the failure of that economy, now 60 years old, in the face of changing circumstances.
But in 1949, investment was internal; foreign capital was not driving the US economy anymore. In 2009, foreign capital is our life blood. This is why protecting the financial players, the banks and insurance companies, dominates all else in Congress and the current administration. The major argument among serious people is how, exactly, to keep the large pools of money flowing. The 1949 recession was, essentially, the coming of age of an era of consumer demand, which the 2000’s killed by stressing it beyond its means.
The problem now is an effect which has been in place since 2004. Everyone knows that any recovery led by US consumer spending, or Chinese infrastructure spending, goes through a few places, such as oil. Money is now parked in those places: credit, resources, and oil. Prices are higher and so bid-up, that a single rogue trader can spike the price of a benchmark grade of crude. The internal control of investment and the deep pool of pent-up demand that kicked the "Free World" out of the post-war funk is now reversed. Demand is sated, or over-supplied, and the money is not coming from inside, but outside, of the developed world’s economic structure.
The "global imbalances" are not between exporting and importing countries; but between countries that spread their demand through the society, and those who keep it tightly locked in the top. As the United States has borrowed more and more money from such countries, it has become more and more like them economically. Bad money drives out good money, and bad markets drive out good markets.
The pressures this creates, in, for example, Iran, are building up. It is not possible for China, Saudi Arabia, and other under-developed nations to withhold the fruits of global growth from their populations forever. At the same time, it is not possible for the US to consume more than it produces forever. The question has been how to manage this transition. And, as yet, there is not the political courage to accept the answers.
Consider one of the key changes: carbon dioxide emissions, and the decarbonization of the global economy. The US is putting forward a cap and trade scheme which is really protectionism in drag: the permits are being given away, and yet the US is hoping to impose a carbon tariff. While in theory, this is not against the WTO’s rules; in practice the carbonizing nation of China, is going to object. Tariffs have an attraction because they are unilaterally enforceable, they protect domestic industry, and they raise revenue without directly taxing individuals. They also allow the US to export carbon creating capital and goods without fear of a general tax on carbon, as the Keynes-Pigou-Tobin route would take, and without taxing flows of capital, which are part of the financial play. In short, they fall on production, not on finance; and they can be imposed, rather than negotiated. The problem, of course, is that WTO’s environmental exception is hard to hit, and China can fight the tariffs, or impose its own, anytime it desires to do so.
Until this kind of logjam, where what needs to be done cannot be done because of the pre-eminence of keeping the financial system above and outside of the law, is broken, the present economic stop and start will continue: long hiring depressions, followed by larger and larger downturns, that return back to full employment more and more slowly. This is because oil, the driver of the old "New Economy," is getting ever scarcer; and global warming is creating ever larger and more measurable effects. Sheep getting smaller on a remote Scottish island are going to be the least of our worries soon.
The "You Are Here" sign should tell people that we can’t afford the next downturn to be larger than this one. But unless political will develops, that is exactly where we are headed.
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We will have another financial meltdown within ten years and there will be widespread pain and much anger when the people realize that the great Treasury looting of 2008 endorsed by this Wall Street-owned president has left this country completely exposed to ruin while finance capitalists and their chattel, the politicians of both parties, ride off with bags full of what once was our money.
Sure is helpful our
foot in mouthVice Pres. says it’s worse that the Administration predicted. With their economic team, it’s no wonder they didn’t predict it.I can somewhat understand the downside to tariffs, even when implemented for a good cause (control of emissions)
I just wish the PTB would step back and end the tax breaks to the companies for taking jobs overseas. Mr/Ms Multi-national, take all the jobs to underdeveloped countries that you want. Just stop asking the US taxpayers (however few they may be) to subsidize you in this action.
what is the “demilitarization recession”? i am not familiar with the term.
Money is also being parked in the stock market. It is being artificially pumped up to attract suckers like the big pension funds to come in. The big players will then exit leaving the pension funds holding the bag, again.
Demand is not being sated. Everyone is so in debt that they can’t afford to meet the demand so we are moving into a deflationary cycle. Demand declines, production is cut to reduce supply, causing a further decline in demand and so on.
Yes, this is what we are seeing both in the creation of our financial crises and in how the Bush and Obama Administrations have sought to deal with them.
The problem with the payroll downturn is twofold. First, it reflects continued loss of jobs and second, a decline in the average number of hours worked and/or cut in wages. So even if many people have jobs their disposable income is being crimped, they are saving more of what they, and the result is even less demand.
oops, meant demoblization.
I think that is the transition from war to peace after WWII.
I also am not clear about cap and trade being a carbon tariff. Goods produced in a carbon heavy country like China can still enter the US as before. Most of cap and trade involves energy producers in this country so I don’t see how this impacts China negatively. On top of this, the current bill has a big offsets provision which would allow carbon producers in this country to invest abroad in carbon reduction projects which might even help China’s carbon footprint without improving ours.
So do you think this gives Obama ammo for another Stimulus if so will he do it and how is it likely to take shape?
Thanks Stirling.
appreciate the sobering assessment Stirling. glad to see that some bloggers have their eye on the kettle that’s startin to boil over.
just wonderin: do have any other comparative parameters to flesh out the scope and extent of what is starting to appear as an economic depression?
Did the oil speculators unload those oil tankers they have parked in the ports yet or are they waiting for still higher oil prices?
Any chance the speculators will get hit with a collapse in market demand? I mean unemployment is high demand at some point should drop if its really that bad and I think it is.
How much would oil have to drop I’m assuming panic selling by oil speculators in order to help jump start the economy?
I’m trying to be hopeful and no I am not betting on oil in either direction.
China will object yes. They can get anything they want by threatening not to buy our debt.
The banks seem to be looking for a new casino game to gamble on but I’m not sure there is any value to what is being sold. Is there any real value?
Just how will this stop pollution in reality not theory.
10 years try next year :)
Obama with his LaLa Land economics dream team of Summers and Geithner? Obama’s first stimulus was a BS effort, poorly structured, badly directed, and too small. Obama has always had tons of ammo. The problem is he doesn’t use it or he wastes it. So first we probably won’t see a move for a second stimulus until next year (because it is a mid-term elections year, not because the economy needs it) and it will be another bullshit effort like his last one.
Hugh–yeah, but what percentage of the 787 billion dollars has actually been released?
I started writing about depression last year. It was looking like it then. But Obama, Bernanke, Geithner, and Summers intervened massively in the financial industry and this has fueled speculation in the stock and oil markets. The cost has been very high and most of the gain has been illusory. At some point, the money will run out and the markets will head south again. And the underlying weaknesses and problems in the economy will be exposed because although we are nearly 2 years out from the collapse of the housing bubble and 9 1/2 months out from the financial meltdown our leaders from both parties have done nothing to address let alone fix a single one of these problems. Strip off the gloss from Bush and Obama efforts and we are already in depression.
The recipients of the stimulus bill are not going to create jobs unless they are watched doing so. They have seen the bankers blackmail the government and steal what is remaining to steal, and the governor’s aren’t going to let that kind of opportunity to slip by. Bet 1/3 of the governor’s or agencies dealing with stimulus funds are investigated for embezzlement within a few years.
your views seem consistent with those of Krugman (he thought 3 trillion was more of what was needed).
http://socialistworker.org/200…..-our-bucks
i was just curious about how much had actually been allocated. thought i read a couple of weeks back that it was only like 50 billion that was released at that time.
i’m glad that you’re focused on the accuracy of the terminology of the true economic state that we’re in. (thought that it was Chalmers Johnson who first predicted our economic demise due to over-spending by the military-industrial-congressional complex.)
could you itemize the factual evidence that supports your claim that we are already in a depression? or point me to some good sources?
10 % unemployment changes everything politically either Obama takes charge and goes Left or the Tea Baggers and Anti Immigrant groups will.
If someone else is unemployed it’s a recession. If you are unemployed it’s a depression.
not sure how relevant this is but i thought i read that some of the first monies released in the stimulus package were for improvements of roads and infrastructure.
all of the roads that are presently being paved were i live are in the affluent neighborhoods.
the rich get richer, and the poor…, well, the poor are just plain fucked.
are we talkin economics here or psychology?
Hard to say. But let’s analyze that $787 billion stimulus. First, that is a number spread over 2 years. So although it is unlikely to be split evenly over both years, for the sake of argument and to simplify the math, let’s split it in half. That’s $394 billion a year. Now the split between spending and tax cuts is roughly 60/40. The tax cuts have essentially no stimulus value. At best, they are neutral. So what we are actually talking about is 60% of $394 billion or about $237 billion a year in stimulus. Now even if you apply an economic multiplier of say 1.4 (its stimulative effect) to this, it is only $331 billion. The current shortfall in the economy is somewhere between $1-$2 trillion a year. In an economy the size of ours and facing the problems we are facing, Obama’s stimulus is spitting into the ocean.
You can do the same thing with the job numbers. Obama: 3.5 million jobs created or “saved”. There are 131 million Americans currently employed in non farm jobs (the current meaning of employment at the Bureau of Labor Statistics). Any of these jobs that is around here in two years would technically qualify as “saved”. So Obama is talking about creating far fewer jobs. The economy has lost 6.5 million jobs since the recession began. It also needs to create jobs to cover natural growth in population of around 120,000 a month. Take these into account and we are down around 8.5 million jobs. So even the full bore impact of the Obama stimulus doesn’t even come to half what is needed. And that’s just through June. We will continue to lose more jobs this year and will still need another 2 million jobs for population groth by the end of 2010 (when this stimulus is supposed to run out). So we could easily be looking at a jobs hole of 12 million or more by then. Finally, what little effect the Obama stimulus will have will be largely gone by the beginning of 2011. What happens then? What is the plan? Short answer: they have no plan.
trash, I’m not smart enough for the others
There is no accepted definition of a depression. Indeed as the NBER showed when it dated the recession to December 2007, it is not just two quarters of negative growth that define a recession. For me, a depression is a bad recession plus deflation. Now some would say that the recession or economic contraction would have to be on the order of 10%. I am a little looser on this because current GDP is being pumped up by government support of the paper economy. Since this doesn’t represent real anything, I tend to discount it more. The fact is that the real economy as reflected in the jobs data and crappy corporate earnings has contracted significantly. And we are seeing deflationary effects –although the current speculative run on commodities obscures this. We are seeing it in the continuing collapse in housing prices and the expected collapse in commercial real estate this year.
Book Salon upstairs with Eric Lotke’s 2044: The Problem Isn’t Big Brother, It’s Big Brother, Inc hosted by Eli
the amount of oil parked on ships (60M barrels) is less than one day’s worth of world wide consumption (88M barrels).
Speculators need a better than $2.50 per barrel monthly rise to make this time arbitrage profitable.
great informative response, Hugh. thanks.
the way it looks from my perspective is that after the Bush felons left office, the country was dumbed down at everylevel to the basement. i mean, to me, even Krugman didn’t seem terribly reflective about the economic problems. he was, like, the same as Geithner only more. i mean, Geithner is a Bush holdover, we’re talkin one of the engineers of the kleptocracy in charge of handing out effin trillions!
anyway, what i have yet to see is a rational discussion at a reasonbly high level as to what the source of the economic problem is and what realistic options are potentially available.
from what the media has puked up on me over the past decade it seems clear what some of the key sources of the problem are: 1) deregulation (the Reagan economic mindfuck was a complete disaster–why won’t anyone admit it?), 2) military spending, aka the War on Terror (Iraq, Afganistan (also know as “the graveyeard of empires”), Pakistan–am i forgettting anyone?)–Dr. Chalmers argues that building/maintaining about 800 military bases across the globe is inherently unsustainable and economically disastrous, 3) healthcare (i was surprised to learn that the federal monies spent on healthcare surpassed those of the military in 1999 and have remained so, etc.
on the solutions front: it looks like realistically focusing on global climate change may offer suggestions for new economic ideas: i.e., instead of focusing on fictitious problems, like the War on Terror, we should look closely at what can be done about keeping the global biospheres and oceans from taking a nosedive: e.g., electric cars, zero-emission factories (i know that the entropy will still increase globally but it seems like a step in the right direction).
i don’t know about you but when i’m faced with surmountable difficulties, i like to know that whatever it is that i am doing is working to reducing the number of problems or striving to increase the effort towards solutions of those problems.
think of the resources wasted by the media and the human minds sucking on that shit ranting about Palin night and day….meanwhile another country slips into destitution or the ocean.
Reminds me of a joke I was told back when I ran as an independent in 1994.
These two older women from Missouri decide to head to Washington to give their congressman a piece of their mind. As they are driving through Appalachia they see two men on the side of the road jerking each other off.
The lady driving says to her friend, “Would you look at that Martha, two democrats jerking each other off. It’s disgusting”
Martha says, “It sure is disgusting Mildred, but how do you know they’re democrats?”
Mildred replies, “Well if they were Republicans they’d be fucking a bunch of poor people”.
kind of sums up the two parties for me.
Hugh–i appreciate all of the data and your consideration of them. but one of the problems that i have with the discussion of the problem, e.g., the definition of “depression,” or “unemployment figures,” etc., is that after the Bush malpresence, confidence in the facts and figures disseminated by the federal government became increasingly unreliable.
for example, when there were discussions on the bailout of the banking industry (while they were already bailing out the banks), the numbers flying around were ridiculous: $500 billion, 3 trillion, 7 trillion, and the latest that i saw $15 trillion. there is a difference between 3 trillion and $15 trillion.
how do you know that the numbers your looking at are reliable?
kleptocracy is what i call it.
both the democraps and the rethugs are reptiles screwing over everyone all the time, it’s just that democraps don’t flaunt their rape and pillage in public.
think Clenis versus Cheney. Clinton screwed over other countries suavely (at times), e.g., Kosovo (humanitarianism), while Dick, Dick just shoots his lawyer friend in the face with a shotgun.
Democrats=Republicans (see Congressional votes from 2006 on)
I think that’s the point of that joke – the democrats are pleasuring each other in public, republicans are taking their pleasure via hardship on others.
Sam Stein on Biden (WH, et al.) ignoring warnings from US major economists.
In light of the recent Matt Taibbi and Daniel Tencer articles, we need to enforce the Sherman Anti-Trust Act against Goldman Sachs. If they are responsible of 50% of the hedge fund trade occurring now, then we will have wildly high and artificial fluctuations in the price of oil, natural gas, water, corn etc. People barely keeping up with their credit card payments will find the cost of living increases putting them into bankruptcy.
Thanks, the Obama Administration is now even, unconsciously, using the same excuses as the Bush Administration. Biden’s “no one could have predicted” is especially lame.
Still Stephanopoulos is being hypocritical since he along with the rest of the MSM was questioning the wisdom of such a “big” stimulus at the time. I remember that when the stimulus was being worked on I ran the numbers and figured that a trillion a year would be needed. As conditions have worsened that number has gone up. The point in the article that Stiglitz makes about states cutting spending is also something I pointed out. It was important not simply to cover those shortfalls but state governments in particular are great vehicles for cycling the really large amounts of money that an adequately sized stimulus would inject into the economy.
There are a lot of subsidies we should end — at least we should consider it.
It isn’t stimulus we need just yet. We need the regular economy to start going strong again.
The stimulus bill went through the House fine (Dems have a big advantage there), but only got by the Senate with 2 Repub votes. They couldn’t have gotten more spending and got it passed into law.
Adding in California where they have a Republican governor and a Legislative Assembly restrained by Republicans and …
Republicans are the anchor holding back America.
This is very true…also a stimulus bill had to get 60 votes because of a stupid part of the Budget Act of 1974 that requires 60 votes when spending on the deficit…so we had to deal with Republicans even if we didn’t want to.
Of course we don’t need to now…but in February we did…we needed 2 Republicans…we got 3 I think?
Exactly! Per Paul Krugman, 2/7/09:
IMHO, Obama has shot his credibility wad in terms of economics.
I find it difficult to reconcile the message of the Happy Planet Index with the hope that traditional American jobs will return. Right now the American Economy operates on an externality assumption of 4.7 Planet Earths. That is, well, unsustainable as the Brundtland Commission might say. Worship of an opulent minority without dealing with the economic challenges facing the bottom four quintiles cannot continue. I know three people (none American) who actually toil in a nanotech factory, the type of futuristic worksite supposed to save the US economy. Two have PhDs and one has dicked around with his dissertation for 12 years. The “Help Wanted” sign at their “factory” assumes at minimum fluency in three languages, as well as good foundations in physics, materials science, nanotech concepts, writing computer code and circuit theory. Perhaps we could all be a bit more charitable to President Obama, who is expected deliver futuristic jobs while facing down an entrenched kleptocracy and an assortment of semi-literate mobs that range in beliefs from the only good “book learnin’” is learnin’ from the Good Book to investment advice from sell-side CNBC is trustworthy.
“It is not possible for China, Saudi Arabia, and other under-developed nations to withhold the fruits of global growth from their populations forever.”
The shift to a consumer economy from one geared for ever increasing production is not easy. The proof is that none of the recently developed economies has succeeded in doing so. Japan has known since the mid-80s that it had to do this and had failed utterly.
Part of the difficulty is that all the power arrangements are organized around maximizing production at the expense of consumption (a model that was not possible until export dependence became possible), so to shift the economy means the powerful yielding some of the power to the powerless. That happened in the West in the 30 and 40s only because the powerful were scared of socialism and communism.
Another part of the difficulty is that if China, Korea, etc. stop sucking all the money away from consumers and handing it over to industry as cheap capital, then would have to allocate capital efficiently. They do not have proper capital allocation mechanisms. And those are not easy to create.
Saudi Arabia is a different case entirely. Saudi Arabia is not an economy, it is a shake-down racket, or as Sterling would put it, pure rent collection. But in their case, it is not even collecting rent for anything they ever did in the past. Pure Jed Clampett.
Has any previously poor economy become rich through oil revenue? Oil does not develop a nation. It just provides the funds for the toughest local crew of thugs to buy foot soldiers and weapons and to buy off potential opposition. The ferocity of the hold on power of the security apparatchiks in Iran is about control of the oil shake-down franchise.
Russia too.
The same is true for any natural resource that can extracted without needing to develop a full complement of economic functions. Diamonds are another good example.
So neither the export-dependent economies nor the petro-economies will spread the wealth from the top to the rest of society until their elites are replaced.
There was an article in my hometown paper this weekend about the Stimulus jobs.
So we got a lot of money to do road re-paving in Connecticut. Because we are a northern climate, we can really only do this work for about five or six months a year, starting in April. The money and the projects for the re-paving were all released. But the State forgot to put out the bids for the asphalt milling, which is a preliminary step to re-paving. They didn’t do that until all the contracts for the re-paving were awarded.
Nothing has been done for ANY of the State repaving projects and we’re in the middle of July. The union for paving is livid, because these projects would put a lot of their workers into paid jobs. Instead, now, they’re all sitting at home, unemployed, waiting. And we’ve lost half the calendar of available time.
My point is this: don’t blame everything on the Obama administration. If you know your State has had money released to them, check to see that the State government is actually distributing it and not being thoroughly incompetant, as they are in Connecticut.
The issue with this is that when Obama was elected and his was putting his plans together, the number he came up with for the stimulus was the same as what Krugman said he needed…in the weeks and months that followed, Krugman upped the number, the President didn’t, because he couldn’t…a higher number would’ve let to a “WTF, how much does this new President want to spend?!?!” war before he even took office.
Krugman also underestimated how bad the economic situation was…in the meantime, we have a country that hates spending, and we need to spend.
Nom de Plume may be right.
The shooting turned into Cold War and the Allies can no longer prop up Breton Woods.