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	<title>Comments on: Failed Models are a Fixture on Wall Street</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/</link>
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		<title>By: wigwam</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1930467</link>
		<dc:creator>wigwam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 05:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1930467</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt; The problem is that the financial elites don’t have even a layman’s grasp of the rocket science that underlies the models they use to gamble billions and to encourage their even more ignorant customers to throw money away.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Last week I described Nicholas Nassim Taleb’s explanation for the failure of the models used on Wall Street. In The Black Swan, he explains that all Wall Street models depend on the normal distribution, the bell curve, the Gaussian distribution. The problem is that top management felt justified in ignoring the events at the tails of the bell curve, the very thin parts at each end of the bell curve.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I have to disagree.  IMHO, these are very smart guys who knew damn well what they were doing.  Per Upton Sinclair: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;IMHO, these guys knew exactly what they were doing.  The models assume that defaults on mortgages are not statistically correlated, which they would be if the housing bubble were to burst, and everyone knew that it had to burst eventually — what can’t go on forever won’t.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<p> The problem is that the financial elites don’t have even a layman’s grasp of the rocket science that underlies the models they use to gamble billions and to encourage their even more ignorant customers to throw money away.</p>
<p>Last week I described Nicholas Nassim Taleb’s explanation for the failure of the models used on Wall Street. In The Black Swan, he explains that all Wall Street models depend on the normal distribution, the bell curve, the Gaussian distribution. The problem is that top management felt justified in ignoring the events at the tails of the bell curve, the very thin parts at each end of the bell curve.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I have to disagree.  IMHO, these are very smart guys who knew damn well what they were doing.  Per Upton Sinclair: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” </p>
<p>IMHO, these guys knew exactly what they were doing.  The models assume that defaults on mortgages are not statistically correlated, which they would be if the housing bubble were to burst, and everyone knew that it had to burst eventually — what can’t go on forever won’t.</p>
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		<title>By: ondelette</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1930218</link>
		<dc:creator>ondelette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1930218</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Aren’t you confusing chaotic systems with systems that have catastrophes?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Also, in response to your statement at 13, there are non-linear systems that do not look like linear systems over a part of their range.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Also, to no one in particular, Axiom A attractors (a type of chaotic dynamical system) have gaussian statistics.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Finally, a question: Am I correct in believing that what this ‘multifractal analysis’ consists of is putting together simulated data using generators and multifractals, and using that, rather than a random number generator, to run Monte Carlo simulations to determine what a derivative instrument is going to do? If so, one can both be in favor of dumping the gaussian models and in favor of using derivatives, no?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And are people aware that computer random number generators are just chaotic dynamical systems that are sampled to produce different kinds of distributions?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Sorry for all the questions and comments, I get very muddled sometimes reading these things, about the fat tails especially since it seems to me that a distribution with fat tails (kurtosis) isn’t gaussian in the first place and the events in the tails are more probable than they would be in a gaussian distribution, check — but I can’t understand how anything in the distribution itself predicts the effect assigned to the event occurring (as in masaccio at 6).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m not that good at statistics, though.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aren’t you confusing chaotic systems with systems that have catastrophes?</p>
<p>Also, in response to your statement at 13, there are non-linear systems that do not look like linear systems over a part of their range.</p>
<p>Also, to no one in particular, Axiom A attractors (a type of chaotic dynamical system) have gaussian statistics.</p>
<p>Finally, a question: Am I correct in believing that what this ‘multifractal analysis’ consists of is putting together simulated data using generators and multifractals, and using that, rather than a random number generator, to run Monte Carlo simulations to determine what a derivative instrument is going to do? If so, one can both be in favor of dumping the gaussian models and in favor of using derivatives, no?</p>
<p>And are people aware that computer random number generators are just chaotic dynamical systems that are sampled to produce different kinds of distributions?</p>
<p>Sorry for all the questions and comments, I get very muddled sometimes reading these things, about the fat tails especially since it seems to me that a distribution with fat tails (kurtosis) isn’t gaussian in the first place and the events in the tails are more probable than they would be in a gaussian distribution, check — but I can’t understand how anything in the distribution itself predicts the effect assigned to the event occurring (as in masaccio at 6).</p>
<p>I’m not that good at statistics, though.</p>
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		<title>By: DrZen</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1930183</link>
		<dc:creator>DrZen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1930183</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Two things. One, their models are more complex than you are allowing. Two, it’s easy to mistake where you are on a curve when someone else has lied to you about the data you’ve built your curve on.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two things. One, their models are more complex than you are allowing. Two, it’s easy to mistake where you are on a curve when someone else has lied to you about the data you’ve built your curve on.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1930181</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1930181</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Even if you win 99 times in a row and keep putting it all back on the line that 100th time can take it all away.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I think what happened is the world changed (law and ideas) and they kept playing the same game with the same stupid ideas (ratings agencies paid for by debt salesmen) and the idea that if they just insured everything SOMEBODY would pay it off…meaning the taxpayers (who are already stretched to the limit) through the federal government.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;They gambled, took all the winnings (for over a decade) and handed the losses to the public!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if you win 99 times in a row and keep putting it all back on the line that 100th time can take it all away.</p>
<p>I think what happened is the world changed (law and ideas) and they kept playing the same game with the same stupid ideas (ratings agencies paid for by debt salesmen) and the idea that if they just insured everything SOMEBODY would pay it off…meaning the taxpayers (who are already stretched to the limit) through the federal government.</p>
<p>They gambled, took all the winnings (for over a decade) and handed the losses to the public!</p>
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		<title>By: windje</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1930031</link>
		<dc:creator>windje</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1930031</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Beware of geeks with formulas&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt; - Warren Buffet&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<p><strong>Beware of geeks with formulas</strong></p>
</blockquote>
<p> &#8211; Warren Buffet</p>
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		<title>By: BooRadley</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1929986</link>
		<dc:creator>BooRadley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1929986</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks masaccio.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks masaccio.</p>
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		<title>By: ImperialFlow</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1929983</link>
		<dc:creator>ImperialFlow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1929983</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The best source on competition to Dollar hegemony can be found by reading Brad Setser’s tireless work.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;He used to be over at RGE Monitor.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best source on competition to Dollar hegemony can be found by reading Brad Setser’s tireless work.<br /><a href="http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/</a></p>
<p>He used to be over at RGE Monitor.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1929981</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1929981</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The oil embargo&lt;br /&gt;
The S&amp;L debacle&lt;br /&gt;
The Asian banking crisis&lt;br /&gt;
The Russian default&lt;br /&gt;
Japan and Japanification&lt;br /&gt;
The LTCM collapse&lt;br /&gt;
Junk bonds&lt;br /&gt;
The dot com bubble&lt;br /&gt;
The housing bubble&lt;br /&gt;
The oil and commodities bubble I&lt;br /&gt;
The oil bubble II&lt;br /&gt;
The financial meltdown&lt;br /&gt;
The current suckers’ rally in the stock market&lt;br /&gt;
The explosion in the Fed’s balance sheet&lt;br /&gt;
The building crisis in commercial real estate&lt;br /&gt;
The loan refinancing crisis that should hit in 2012-2014&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;These are just the ones that I can think of off the top of my head.  The fact is that markets and the financial system are being perturbed every couple of years.  The idea that there is some golden equilibrium or Gaussian distribution is hogwash.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The oil embargo<br />
The S&amp;L debacle<br />
The Asian banking crisis<br />
The Russian default<br />
Japan and Japanification<br />
The LTCM collapse<br />
Junk bonds<br />
The dot com bubble<br />
The housing bubble<br />
The oil and commodities bubble I<br />
The oil bubble II<br />
The financial meltdown<br />
The current suckers’ rally in the stock market<br />
The explosion in the Fed’s balance sheet<br />
The building crisis in commercial real estate<br />
The loan refinancing crisis that should hit in 2012-2014</p>
<p>These are just the ones that I can think of off the top of my head.  The fact is that markets and the financial system are being perturbed every couple of years.  The idea that there is some golden equilibrium or Gaussian distribution is hogwash.</p>
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		<title>By: joelmael</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1929966</link>
		<dc:creator>joelmael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1929966</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for those refs.   I look at the first two regularly, and Galbraith, and Dean Baker.   &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You mention the gold bugs. I have invested a bit from time to time. I have never found one that didn’t sound like a carnival barker.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I get the feeling that those you referenced are afraid of the word gold, afraid of sounding alarmist, or being tainted by the hustlers.  Are  there  legit goldbugs?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for those refs.   I look at the first two regularly, and Galbraith, and Dean Baker.   </p>
<p>You mention the gold bugs. I have invested a bit from time to time. I have never found one that didn’t sound like a carnival barker.  </p>
<p>I get the feeling that those you referenced are afraid of the word gold, afraid of sounding alarmist, or being tainted by the hustlers.  Are  there  legit goldbugs?</p>
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		<title>By: masaccio</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1929965</link>
		<dc:creator>masaccio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/05/failed-models-are-a-fixture-on-wall-street/#comment-1929965</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Of course that’s true, even though top brass on Wall Street seems totally unaware of this obvious fact. Taleb says that Mandelbrot was talking about the problems with their models as long ago as the early 60’s. Page 260. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I read somewhere that David Li, who showed how to use the Gaussian Copula to value collateralized debt obligations, also tried to explain their limits, but was ignored. Can’t find it now. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I blame top management anyway. They should have known those limits. Instead, they all used it with sheep-like intensity, and went down together, until they were buoyed up by taxpayers.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course that’s true, even though top brass on Wall Street seems totally unaware of this obvious fact. Taleb says that Mandelbrot was talking about the problems with their models as long ago as the early 60’s. Page 260. </p>
<p>I read somewhere that David Li, who showed how to use the Gaussian Copula to value collateralized debt obligations, also tried to explain their limits, but was ignored. Can’t find it now. </p>
<p>I blame top management anyway. They should have known those limits. Instead, they all used it with sheep-like intensity, and went down together, until they were buoyed up by taxpayers.</p>
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