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	<title>Comments on: Oh yeah, real democratic</title>
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		<title>By: FlashMan</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927845</link>
		<dc:creator>FlashMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927845</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Just saw a very good article by historian Greg Grandin that came out in today’s Nation.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Here’s what Grandin says about the constitutional pretext for the coup:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“For those who presume to rule behind the scenes, Zelaya took a step too far when he began to push for the convocation of a constituent assembly in order to democratize Honduras’s notoriously exclusionary political system. Expectedly, these efforts were opposed by the national Congress and the Supreme Court, both of which are controlled by an inbred clique of career politicians and judges invested in keeping Honduran politics restricted–including members of Zelaya’s Liberal Party. For its part, the US media seem intent on reporting on events in Honduras through the prism of its obsession with Venezuela’s Hugo Chávez. The New York Times, for instance, ran an op-ed by free-market ideologue Alvaro Vargas Llosa, who claimed that the most unfortunate aspect of the coup is not that it derailed Honduran democracy but–wait for it–that it has allowed Chávez to defend democracy and thus claim the “moral high ground.” Vargas Llosa describes Zelaya as a man of privilege, an “heir to the family fortune” who had “devoted decades to his agriculture and forestry enterprises” and who had run for president on a conservative platform that included supporting CAFTA. Misleadingly, Vargas Llosa attributes Zelaya’s political turn not to the absolute failure of CAFTA and the fiasco of the “war on drugs” but to Chávez’s seductions. The US media have also falsely yet unanimously presented Zelaya’s moves as a power grab, an effort to end term limits to allow him to run for re-election. But the referendum Zelaya was pushing–which prompted the coup–asked citizens only if there should be a vote on “whether to hold a Constituent National Assembly that will approve a new political Constitution.” In other words, Hondurans weren’t being asked to vote on term limits or even on revising the Constitution. They were simply being asked to vote on whether or not to have a vote on revising the Constitution, with the terms of that revision being left to an elected assembly.”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just saw a very good article by historian Greg Grandin that came out in today’s Nation.</p>
<p>Here’s what Grandin says about the constitutional pretext for the coup:</p>
<p>“For those who presume to rule behind the scenes, Zelaya took a step too far when he began to push for the convocation of a constituent assembly in order to democratize Honduras’s notoriously exclusionary political system. Expectedly, these efforts were opposed by the national Congress and the Supreme Court, both of which are controlled by an inbred clique of career politicians and judges invested in keeping Honduran politics restricted–including members of Zelaya’s Liberal Party. For its part, the US media seem intent on reporting on events in Honduras through the prism of its obsession with Venezuela’s Hugo Chávez. The New York Times, for instance, ran an op-ed by free-market ideologue Alvaro Vargas Llosa, who claimed that the most unfortunate aspect of the coup is not that it derailed Honduran democracy but–wait for it–that it has allowed Chávez to defend democracy and thus claim the “moral high ground.” Vargas Llosa describes Zelaya as a man of privilege, an “heir to the family fortune” who had “devoted decades to his agriculture and forestry enterprises” and who had run for president on a conservative platform that included supporting CAFTA. Misleadingly, Vargas Llosa attributes Zelaya’s political turn not to the absolute failure of CAFTA and the fiasco of the “war on drugs” but to Chávez’s seductions. The US media have also falsely yet unanimously presented Zelaya’s moves as a power grab, an effort to end term limits to allow him to run for re-election. But the referendum Zelaya was pushing–which prompted the coup–asked citizens only if there should be a vote on “whether to hold a Constituent National Assembly that will approve a new political Constitution.” In other words, Hondurans weren’t being asked to vote on term limits or even on revising the Constitution. They were simply being asked to vote on whether or not to have a vote on revising the Constitution, with the terms of that revision being left to an elected assembly.”</p>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927844</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927844</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No reason not to re-examine the constitution and no reason to trust anybody in a position of power who wants to remove all institutional checks on that power.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Signing off. Thanks for the chat, Flash.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No reason not to re-examine the constitution and no reason to trust anybody in a position of power who wants to remove all institutional checks on that power.</p>
<p>Signing off. Thanks for the chat, Flash.</p>
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		<title>By: FlashMan</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927843</link>
		<dc:creator>FlashMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927843</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sounds like we both agree the constitution could stand a little overturnin’.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like we both agree the constitution could stand a little overturnin’.</p>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927839</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927839</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I was slowly typing and didn’t see your 35. Looks like there wasn’t much more to the referendum than an attempt to overturn the constitution.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was slowly typing and didn’t see your 35. Looks like there wasn’t much more to the referendum than an attempt to overturn the constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927838</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927838</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Flash, I would probably agree that reform is necessary and it doesn’t at all comfort me to be agreeing with the arguments of the Honduran military, but there’s no way to square up Zelaya’s referendum.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If you can find the entire terms of the referendum, I would like to see them, but as far as a know it was designed keep him in power and would have set up a new assembly to facilitate that.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/27/honduras.zelaya/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/…..index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flash, I would probably agree that reform is necessary and it doesn’t at all comfort me to be agreeing with the arguments of the Honduran military, but there’s no way to square up Zelaya’s referendum.</p>
<p>If you can find the entire terms of the referendum, I would like to see them, but as far as a know it was designed keep him in power and would have set up a new assembly to facilitate that.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/27/honduras.zelaya/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/…..index.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: FlashMan</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927837</link>
		<dc:creator>FlashMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:29:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;I just found the ballot question translated into English on the NACLA website.  &lt;a href=&quot;https://nacla.org/node/5949&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;https://nacla.org/node/5949&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“..while many major news outlets in the US, including the Miami Herald, Wall St. Journal and Washington Post, said an impetus for the coup was specifically Zelaya’s plans for a vote to allow him to extend his term in office, the actual ballot question was to be: “Do you agree that, during the general elections of November 2009 there should be a fourth ballot to decide whether to hold a Constituent National Assembly that will approve a new political constitution?”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just found the ballot question translated into English on the NACLA website.  <a href="https://nacla.org/node/5949" rel="nofollow">https://nacla.org/node/5949</a></p>
<p>“..while many major news outlets in the US, including the Miami Herald, Wall St. Journal and Washington Post, said an impetus for the coup was specifically Zelaya’s plans for a vote to allow him to extend his term in office, the actual ballot question was to be: “Do you agree that, during the general elections of November 2009 there should be a fourth ballot to decide whether to hold a Constituent National Assembly that will approve a new political constitution?”</p>
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		<title>By: FlashMan</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927831</link>
		<dc:creator>FlashMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927831</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I might be able to agree with you if we were talking about a country with strong and established democratic institutions and a constitution that sprang legitimately from the popular will.  But since we all know that ain’t true, it seems a bit silly to keep raising your one simple point - especially since it is the primary self-serving argument of the coup perpetrators. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but the referendum that was halted by the military coup included a whole host of proposed constitutional changes.  It wasn’t just about term limits,no?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I might be able to agree with you if we were talking about a country with strong and established democratic institutions and a constitution that sprang legitimately from the popular will.  But since we all know that ain’t true, it seems a bit silly to keep raising your one simple point &#8211; especially since it is the primary self-serving argument of the coup perpetrators. </p>
<p>Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but the referendum that was halted by the military coup included a whole host of proposed constitutional changes.  It wasn’t just about term limits,no?</p>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927826</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Flash, try to address the one simple point that I keep making. Zelaya doesn’t get to use his constitutional office to hold a referendum aimed at changing the constitution, in a manner prohibited by the constitution, and especially not when the change is designed to enable him to hold onto power.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flash, try to address the one simple point that I keep making. Zelaya doesn’t get to use his constitutional office to hold a referendum aimed at changing the constitution, in a manner prohibited by the constitution, and especially not when the change is designed to enable him to hold onto power.</p>
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		<title>By: FlashMan</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927819</link>
		<dc:creator>FlashMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927819</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Oh,  and your reminder that Jimmy Carter had a bit to do with the Honduran Constitution makes my original point about US responsibility. So the Constitution whose honor the Honduran coup leaders and the Supreme Court are defending was imposed by the Great Power to the North?  How dare Zelaya suggest it might be changed by popular vote!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh,  and your reminder that Jimmy Carter had a bit to do with the Honduran Constitution makes my original point about US responsibility. So the Constitution whose honor the Honduran coup leaders and the Supreme Court are defending was imposed by the Great Power to the North?  How dare Zelaya suggest it might be changed by popular vote!</p>
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		<title>By: FlashMan</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927812</link>
		<dc:creator>FlashMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/02/oh-yeah-real-democratic/#comment-1927812</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As far as I can tell, the central argument of the coup perpetrators for why Zelaya should be arrested upon his return is exactly what you just articulated.  And who says Zelaya subverted the constitution by calling for a plebiscite to change it?  The Honduran Supreme Court?  Excuse me, but isn’t that the same Supreme Court that sanctioned the coup?  Gee, I wonder why the coup happened to be on the same day that balloting was beginning on Zelaya’s non-binding referendum for constitutional change?  Do you think the right-wingers were maybe a little bit nervous that the people might overwhelmingly support Zelaya’s proposed changes and deal a stunning rebuke to the Supreme Court?&lt;br /&gt;
Constitutions that keep people down should be changed.  Military coups aimed at overthrowing popular and democratically elected officials should be condemned on principle.  And people who ape (or blindly accept) the bogus claims of the coup perpetrators should be called out as apologists.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as I can tell, the central argument of the coup perpetrators for why Zelaya should be arrested upon his return is exactly what you just articulated.  And who says Zelaya subverted the constitution by calling for a plebiscite to change it?  The Honduran Supreme Court?  Excuse me, but isn’t that the same Supreme Court that sanctioned the coup?  Gee, I wonder why the coup happened to be on the same day that balloting was beginning on Zelaya’s non-binding referendum for constitutional change?  Do you think the right-wingers were maybe a little bit nervous that the people might overwhelmingly support Zelaya’s proposed changes and deal a stunning rebuke to the Supreme Court?<br />
Constitutions that keep people down should be changed.  Military coups aimed at overthrowing popular and democratically elected officials should be condemned on principle.  And people who ape (or blindly accept) the bogus claims of the coup perpetrators should be called out as apologists.</p>
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