[Welcome Author, Nicholas Schmidle and Host, Russ Wellen, who covers nuclear disarmament and foreign affairs for Scholars & Rogues, Newshoggers, and Huffington Post - bev]
To Live or to Perish Forever: Two Tumultuous Years in Pakistan
Doesn’t it seem like only yesterday that, to many Americans, what Pakistan meant was the smiling proprietors of businesses in our cities and larger towns? "Those Pakistanis," we’d think, "they assimilate so nicely." And who can forget the man who effectively served as the face of Pakistan? The late Qawwali singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan reigned over world music in the nineties.
After 9/11, though, when we learned that its intelligence agencies sponsored the Taliban, which had hosted al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, Pakistan became a nation non gratis to many Americans. Nor was Pakistan the first country that American Nicholas Schmidle thought of reporting from when he sought to kick off his journalism career.
After securing a two-year writing fellowship in February 2006, he hoped to spend it in Iran. But when Ahmadinejad was elected president, chances of obtaining an extended visa receded and he chose Pakistan instead.
Among the first lessons we learn from the author is that Pakistan is actually an acronym of the names of the northwest India states that became Pakistan. In fact, he seamlessly integrates a crash course on Pakistan’s history into the volatile events to which he bore witness during his stay.
After arriving in Pakistan, it wasn’t long before Schmidle found he was able to compensate for his blue hair, six-foot height, and fair skin with his knowledge of Urdu — as well as with an innate chutzpah. Thus did he insinuate himself into the good graces of everyone from top government officials to leaders of nationalist parties to extremists. In Pakistan, even the militants can’t seem to help themselves from acting as gracious hosts and loquacious interview subjects.
The author’s first self-assigned task was to visit madrassas around the country. He also attends a workshop titled "Madrassas and the Modern World," to which academics have somehow lured "two dozen crotch-scratching, Taliban-supporting mullahs" out of the madrassas in which they teach. The mullahs are subjected to some specious advice such as, "There’s nothing un-Islamic about a credit card. You all are missing out on the world." But they soon become convinced of the need to improve their teaching techniques.
The author visits Baluchistan, the vast undeveloped desert-like province that opens up to the Arabian Sea. He meets with the head of the separatist Baluchistan National Party, Akhtar Mengal, whose main concern is former President Musharraf’s dream of a "seaside metropolis." The Chinese are assisting in development of a deep-water port in Gwadar. As with plutocracies everywhere, the wealth seems to bypass the people of Baluchistan. Before he’s imprisoned by Pakistan for two years, Mengal asks Schmidle: "Why does the world keep neglecting our screams?"
The Gwadar development also turns out to be pivotal in the downfall of the most compelling figure in the book: Abdul Rashid Ghazi. Along with his brother Aziz, Ghazi ran Las Masjid. Doesn’t ring a bell? Try Red Mosque.
The first mosque built in Islamabad, it served one of Islamabad’s most expensive neighborhoods. Furthermore Ghazi impresses Schmidle with both his genial nature — he reminds the author of Jerry Garcia — and his pragmatism. It’s all the more surprising then that the Red Mosque became not only a refuge for the Taliban, but a veritable fortress.
Soon Ghazi’s men take hostages, including six Chinese women from a massage parlor they raided. Because the Chinese had invested hundreds of millions in Gwadar they pressured Musharraf to protect their people in Pakistan. You know the rest: Ghazi and the Taliban he harbored became Pakistan’s version of Waco and the Branch Davidians, but to the tenth power.
Despite a government clean-up faster than Ground Zero after 9/11, the author estimates that as many as 1,000 of those inside the Red Mosque were killed. Ghazi’s brother Aziz was apprehended slipping out wearing a burqa, but Abdul manned the battlements until the last. Schmidle attempts to make sense of his descent into a Pakistani David Koresh.
Moving on to the contested Swat region, the author arranges to visit powerful Taliban leader Maulana Fazlullah, known as the Radio Mullah for his broadcasts that have won him a devoted following. In another of the inadvertently humorous moments that the author captures, he asks Iqbal Khan, leader of an older Islamist group that’s now pro-Taliban, if he cared to come along.
"’You want me to come. No way,’ he said. ‘Those people are extremists.’"
Once in Fazlullah’s compound, Schmidle encounters Uzbek militants, blamed for some of the Taliban’s most brutal acts, including assassinating tribal elders. After briefly meeting Fazlullah with his "goofy smile," he’s treated to a public lashing of criminals in a scenic setting: "an alternate universe’s summertime music festival: Talibanapalooza." As the author explains, this kind of swift justice, as opposed to the slow, expensive variety the government offers, is key to acceptance of the Taliban.
The author spends the rest of the book racing around the country as it spirals into chaos. In quick succession, Musharraf declares a national state of emergency to keep his nemesis, Supreme Court Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry, from ruling against his attempt to run for a third term. Then Benazir Bhutto returns and Musharraf is forced into what the author calls an "arranged marriage" with her, even though some believe he’s behind attempts to stifle and even kill her. Musharraf subsequently relinquishes control of the army and reinstates the constitution.
Bhutto, of course, was killed, which terrorism expert Peter Bergen, as quoted by the author, called "the Kennedy assassination and 9/11, rolled into one." Most of us in the West have no idea how the nationwide rioting that followed crippled the country. "The Indus Highway," Schmidle writes, "running north and south through [the province of] Sindh, looked like an apocalyptic repo lot, lined with burning cars stretching for hundreds of miles."
Thanks to the author’s near-daredevil exploits and flair for narrative, To Live or to Perish Forever leaves us with an indelible impression of the upheaval that wracks Pakistan on a regular basis — and of its memorable people.



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About Firedoglake
Nick, Welcome to the Lake,
Russ, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Thank you, Bev. Welcome, Nicholas, and good afternoon, FDLers. We’ll get right to our first question. Top journalists, such as Steve Coll and Robin Wright, provided you with glowing testimonials on the back of your book jacket. One can’t help suspecting, though, that other journalists are green with envy over a novice journalist, such as you were at the time, interviewing an imposing array of government officials, opposition leaders, and Islamic militants. You made clear that one meeting led to another. But how did you make those initial contacts?
Thanks. I am thrilled to be here, and very much looking forward to the next couple of hours
When you’re ready, Nicholas, could you also tell our readers the origins of the phrase “to live or to perish forever” and its significance to Pakistan today?
Hi Russ, thanks again for moderating this.
As for your question about contacts and such, I had met a Pakistani who had previously served as a political advisor at the US consulate in Karachi, and before that was a journalist. He lived in Washington DC in early 2006. I went to meet him one day, and he opened up his address book to me. (Among the contacts he had written in there was Hamid Karzai’s contacts in Quetta, where he’d been living on and off before 9/11.) So I started out working with what I had. Spent the first three weeks in Karachi, and went down the list. Then, when I moved up to Islamabad, where I would eventually settle down with my wife, I just met journalists and started building up a network of “fixers” all over the country.
to live or to perish forever is a phrase borrowed from a 1933 treatise written by a young indian muslim supporting the idea of creating “pakistan.” the title of the treatise was “now or never; are we to live or perish forever?”
Nicholas, welcome to FDL this afternoon.
I have not had a chance to read your book so apologies if you cover this question in it, but would you care to touch on mis-conceptions and plain confusion that most of us in the west have about Pakistan?
Welcome to Firedoglake – so glad you could join us today!
it was in that same treatise where he proposes the name “PAKSTAN” as an acronym of the muslim-majority provinces in nw india that he wanted pakistan to be part of:
Punjab
Afghania (NWFP)
Kashmir
Sindh
Baluchistan
Nicholas wrote:
That was certainly Kismet. I guess your adventures in Pakistan were meant to be!
they left out the I for whatever reason
That Pakistan is an acronym was one of the first “fun facts” that I learned from your book.
Wow, I am exhausted and impressed. What a compelling read and what multi adventures. Look forward to reading the book.
Have been so upset about drone attacks.
Also, what is story with this $1 billion Islamabad new gated embassy/military base?
Pakistan the latest domino? Is Iran next?
Welcome, Nick!
So, I’m wondering:
– Is there anything we should be doing here?
– Is there anything we can be doing here?
– Who gets the nukes and will they use them?
Pakistan is simply far more dynamic that most people understand. It’s unfortunate that so many stories that would illustrate this dynamism go unreported. Frankly, I play my own part, since most of what I write about Pakistan nowadays is analysis of the Taliban problem and the border region. But when i was living there i reported on a number of stories that you would never thought would be “stories” anywhere else. Like one summer, when my wife and I traveled way up into the Hindu Kush mountains to watch a polo match on the world’s highest polo field (+12,000 ft). or the Sufi story I wrote for SMithsonian last December. the Taliban simply make the headlines cause they’ve got the guns
i don’t know much about the new embassy, sorry. but the old one is pretty much a fortress, so I can’t imagine the new one.
i thought that sec clinton’s initiative about texting with the word “swat” in the line and donating $5 was a pretty smart idea – and one seemingly well received in pakistan. there’s just so little interaction between pakistanis and american people – at the street level – that these sort of genuine, grassroots gestures for over very well
Nicholas wrote:
Among those are other organizations you highlight that the West tends to overlook, but that also stand in opposition to the government. The cult-like MQM, for example, is an ethnic party that migrated from India at Pakistan’s founding in 1947. But instead of being treated like Pakistan’s version of Mayflower descendants, the mohajirs are discriminated against. Still, they rule Karachi, where, you write, they “fused politics and crime with brutal precision.” Could you tell us about their adored leader Altaf Hussein and explain how the MQM and groups like it impact Pakistan?
yea, the whole issue of having contacts – and relying on them to get to place and people otherwise off-limits – really can’t be stressed enough. i am sure it’s like that everywhere, to some extent, but my wife and i were extremely well-received and well taken care of by most all pakistanis we met
It’s amazing what gracious — and loquacious — hosts not only ordinary citizens, but militant leaders were to you.
I have not yet read your book either. Can you talk a little more about the scheming among various outside powers over Baluchistan?
great question, and this is one of the underreported stories. as you mentioned, the MQM is a mohajir-dominated party that is based in karachi, with support in a few other urban centers in sindh. they also tended to feel like they had made the greatest sacrifices for pakistan. even the name ‘mohajir’ means “someone who has made the hijra,” or pilgrimage. hijra is the same word used to described the prophet mohammad’s passage from mecca to medina
but back to the mqm themselves. in the early 1990s, the army (during the government of benazir bhutto) conducted an operation against the MQM hit squads that were apparently running around karachi. the city was terribly violent in those days. and so, fearing arret, their leader, this mustachioed guy name altaf hussein, fled to london, where he’s been ever since. and he gives these weekly telephonic rallies in karachi where thousands gather to stare at speakers where he broadcasts through. it’s pretty intense, actually. bc, as one journalist told me, “altaf knows everything that’s happening in karachi at any given time. if he doesn’t want you to get out of bed, you wont.”
people talk about baluchistan as part of the “new great game” because the chinese government has been building a deep-water port in the town of gwadar for the past several years. the pentagon isn’t happy about this at all, and describes china’s strategy as a “string of pearls” strategy, whereby they are trying to build ports throughout the indian ocean to increase their military presence. there’s also a good amount of natural gas in baluchistan, which is what the baluchis have been fighting the government over, in part. they say that the gas revenues and the revenues to come from gwadar, go straight to the center, don’t get funneled to the baluchis who need them, and that the baluchis are treated like second-class citizens. it’s a tough place. in the late 1970s, the us geological survey called baluchistan the closest thing to the moon on earth
That’s amazing about Altaf, Karachi’s Big Brother. Meanwhile, to expand on Maxcrat’s Baluchistan question. . .
In May, the Atlantic published an article about Baluchistan and its seaside city Gwadar by renowned journalist Robert Kaplan. Then your book appeared and fleshed out the region’s issues. 1. Please tell our readers why the deep-sea port that China is helping Pakistan develop in Gwadar is angering Baluchi separatists. 2. The capital of Baluchistan, Quetta, was a refuge for the Taliban in 2001 when the United States was attacking Afghanistan. Are the Taliban, as well as al-Qaeda, assisting the separatists and, if so, what’s the likely outcome?
the other important thing about baluchistan is that it’s the projected site of a major gas-oil pipeline that could come from iran, through pakistan into india. there’s another projected pipeline that would run from turkmenistan through afghanistan, into baluchistan. it’s an awfully unstable part of the world to be laying pipelines in nowadays, and the fact that the baluchi part of iran are also up in arms doesn’t help things either
Thanks. You just answered part one of my Baluchistan question in your reply to Maxcrat.
thanks for the Smithsonian reference. i’ve got one eye on the article and one eye here. do you think the sufis in pakistan are in danger now that the taliban have risen to a level of prominence?
Regarding the pipelines, even once laid, more and more they’re targets for Global Guerillas and Fourth Generation Warriors.
the baluchi nationalists and the taliban who are hiding in quetta are totally at odds. most of the baluchi leaders are products of left-wing liberation ideology. in fact, one of the big leaders, ataullah mengal, sports the same kind of mustache and bald head that lenin used to go with.
the reason that gwadar is angering the separatists is that baluchis feel like they aren’t going to cut a piece of the pie. it’s a pretty valid concern. the town where most of the natural gas is coming from just started receiving gas, some fifty years after it was discovered, and after most parts of the country were already enjoying piped gas in the homes
Nicholas wrote:
Astonishing — and all too typical of a plutocracy.
the sufis are, to some extent, in danger and we saw some of this in swat. one of the first things that the taliban did after taking over swat was to a) set of TNT to explode some of the millennia-old buddhist statues carved into the granite mountainsides around swat and b) to take over the shrine to a legendary poet and sufi who many pashtuns revere. (his name was rahman baba).
the taliban fear sufism bc the whole idea of the latter is that the worshippers relationship is directly with god, whereas the taliban’s whole idea is that they understand better than anyone else what god does and doesn’t want. so there’s an inherent tension there. fortunately, sufism has been around for centuries and the taliban are a recent historical phenomenon; let’s hope that the sufis prevail
What was the reaction in Pakistan to Obama’s Cairo speech.
What is the situation like for Pakistani women in terms of enforced “deportment”? What were your wife’s impressions as a woman there, what vibe or treatment did she notice being female but being a foreign female?
exactly. already the domestic pipelines are sabotaged on a regular basis by the Baluchistan Liberation Army. the bla is also all about blowing up railroad tracks. just trying to disrupt the country’s economic rhythm.
Nicholas wrote:
True of all mystical practices, which is why they threaten traditional religions. The intercessors — the priestly class — fear being shunted aside.
my wife had an invaluable window into the lives of pakistani women because she was the only non-muslim american to ever attend the international islamic university, where she was working on her masters. so every morning she wore a hijab to class and spent the day with these girls, who came from religious families, but families that still prized education for girls. so the islamic university was a good balance. but rikki, my wife, wasn’t confined to just that world. she had also just been commissioned to begin hosting a reality tv show, in urdu, in which she was making over pakistani women. so rikki got to see both worlds. meanwhile, i confess that i never really learned to speak urdu in the feminine because my interactions with women were so limited. (btw, both her MA degree and her TV show were aborted when we were expelled from pakistan in january 2008)
thanks, i just got up to the part in the smithsonian article where you quote carl ernst saying “I would bet on the Sufis in the long run.” here’s hoping that’s what happens, and sooner rather than later.
re: the cairo speech, it seems that it was well received, though perhaps not as well received as obama’s admission more recently that he had spent some time in karachi with a college friend and knew how to cook “keema” which is one of the most popular national dishes!
Nicholas wrote:
What? That wasn’t in the book. Guess because it was aborted, it wound up on the cutting-room floor.
You remind me of Sean Flynn and Tim Page careening around Vietnam!
Green Warrior wrote:
Go Sufis! Go Qawwali music! Nusrat lives!
yea. i’ve been trying to convince her to write, if nothing else, a magazine article about her experience and so wanted to save the good stuff for that. unfortunately, she’s much more a “doer” than a writer, and so she’d rather be looking for her next possible gig than reflecting on the previous one, i think. but if anyone here knows anyone around oprah, pass on that story!
Thank you. That was my next question, about your departure. Did it get dangerous or you were ready to leave?
You and your wife sound awesome. And picking up Urdu is it? Must be a natural at languages.
What advice would you give for being received well and gaining trust in your situation? (blue hair?)
Speaking of the priestly class, let’s turn to one of the most dramatic episodes in your book — the sad saga of Abdul Rashid Ghazi. . .
With the infamous Red Mosque episode, then-President Musharraf really pulled a Reno — as in Janet. It was like the Branch Davidians at Waco but multiplied tenfold. How is it that the genial, level-headed Ghazi, as you wrote, “morphed from an outspoken extremist with a perma-smirk into a bona fide terrorist”? In other words, how did he wind up becoming Pakistan’s version of David Koresh and backing himself and his followers into an apocalyptic corner?
Does Pakistan also have rich oil and gas resources I am assuming.
How are they reacting to Iran’s situation do you think?
ah, my departure. we were ready to stay, no doubt about it. but in january 2008, two days after i’d published a story in the nyt magazine called “next-gen taliban”, five cops showed up at our door and handed me a deportation order. so that was that. no questions asked.
but then, in august, i returned to write the sufi article for smithsonian that we’ve referenced a few times. on that trip, originally intended to be 3 weeks, i had to leave halfway through after i began getting semi-threatening phone calls, followed up by reports in the local press that i had been kidnapped. what’s that mark twain quote about “reports of my death being greatly exaggerated” or something like that? yea, it makes for a good story now, but it was downright terrifying at the time. wasn’t sure if the next car was going to stop and dudes were going to jump out or what. so that was the last time i have been there
urdu is not all that easy, but i already spoke a good amount of persian, and so knew the alphabet and much of the vocabulary was similar. plus, we both really wanted to learn it, which made the experience far different from, say, trying to learn german in high school
this is a fantastic question and worthy of a psychologist, i think. as you mention, ghazi was not a suicidal dude, or at least i didn’t think so. if anyone reads my account of him, you’ll see that he was critical in me getting access to jihadis that would have otherwise been unthinkable. but i believe that he was a victim of his own personality cult, to some extent – the very personality cult that, at times, made me realize that a) the motivation to become a jihadi sounded awfully similar to that of a young marine (my brother is one, so i say this without criticism of either); the notion of fighting for someone bigger than yourself, the promise of a life of adventure, etc; and b) the very scary thought that i felt remarkably safe in his presence, and thus understand why all these kids were standing around him with AK-47s, ready to go the next level.
but what made him turn? he had built up the jihad and built up himself to such a degree, and surrounded himself with some bad-ass fighters from pakistan’s most elite jihadi organizations, that when it came down to the final showdown, he left no room for himself to back down.
Nick, did you need some rehab from adrenaline addiction? Talk about a velocitized life style? So who’s playing you and your wife in the movie?
What happened to Benazir Bhutto do you think? Who did the assassination? Any ideas?
Anyone in gov. asking for you to do some consulting?
in other words, it’s one thing to start a revolution and another thing altogether to manage it
Nicholas wrote:
Fascinating. I followed the siege of Lal Masjid in Asia Times Online. But you really brought it to life. Do our readers remember that?
re: the BB assassination, i generally agree with the us and pakistani intelligence consensus that it was baitullah mehsud, the pakistani taliban honcho. conspiracies aside, he had a motive and the capacity…
i have done some consulting with think tanks around town, and i am actually based at the new america foundation here in dc, but i’ve not dealt with government too much
yea, it’s been quiet in dc since we moved back. but i had the good fortune to spend a month in mauritania last december reporting a piece for the nyt magazine about the north african franchise of al qaeda that involved wandering around the sahara desert, which satisfied the urge for a while.
btw, if anyone is interested, there’s an hour-long CSPAN special about my book that’ll be on tonight at 10, tomorrow at 9pm, midnight, and then 3 am. i would guess that you’ll have had more than enough of me by the end of next hour, but if you’re at all interested, check it out. it’s After Words on book tv, i think cspan 2, but not sure
Before we move on to the Taliban, regarding the adrenaline rush. . .
You trekked to Swat to meet the Radio Mullah, Maulana Fazlullah. Upon entering his compound, you remarked that the phrase “belly of the beast” came to mind. Where did you find the courage to approach such dangerous people and how did you handle the fear that you spoke about when being forced out of the country? Also, wasn’t your wife afraid that you might suffer the same fate as Daniel Pearl? How did you and she deal with her concerns?
Your promoting the book these days? Touring with it, too? Been on Charlie Rose, etc.? More importantly, Daily Show?
Just in case you missed it, Nicholas just wrote:
Will look for it! Thanks, Russ!
rikki usually didn’t realize just what i was going off to do until i got back and was sharing the story over beers with friends in islamabad. i don’t think she wanted to know. i gave her phone numbers of whatever journalist i planned to meet, and kept in touch with people, such as during this swat trip. the biggest thing, i thought, in order to avert being kidnapped or landing in crazy trouble, was always traveling with a local journalist, or fixer. he knew the people, the roads, the police, the politicians, etc. in whatever area we happened to be in far better than i ever could. unlike some of the big bureau reporters, who had one fixer that they went everywhere with, i worked with a different guy in each city, sometimes even in different neighborhoods, depending on the story. for instance, in quetta, if i was looking for taliban, i’d work with a pashtun. but if it was looking for baluchi separatists, i’d work with a baluchi
for what time zone are those cspan times?
What is your background, Nick, may I ask, in terms of launching you into this career/life path? Part of your family military, too. That is interesting to share your worlds I imagine.
re: belly of the beast. it was at the moment i uttered that that my fixer and i had just crawled into a open-air carriage, attached to a zip line, that was to send us careening over the swat river, and into this taliban camp. as we pushed off the bank, we watched our car- and any chance of making a quick getaway – disappear on the other side. this was one of the few times i really thought that i might have made a really, really bad decision. fortunately, it wans’t
EST
wow – thank you for coming to talk with us about your book and your experiences.
what changes would have to happen in order for you to go back? would you go back?
thanks, i’ll try and tune in.
Nicholas wrote:
Ignorance is bliss, I guess — or at least a reprieve from all-consuming worry. Not only the fixers deserve credit, but so do you for your ability to intuit which ones could be trusted.
i was an aspiring philosopher for a while. graduated from college in 2001, started a grad program in political philosophy in chicago in 2003, realized that philosophers weren’t in high demand, and then enrolled at american university in 2004 for a masters in international affairs. midway through that program, i spent a summer in tehran, and later spent several months in central asia. i used both experiences to start freelancing and built up a small portfolio of clips that used to try and convince people to take me seriously. not sure it’s working though! ;)
Moving on to the Taliban and Swat. . .
Earlier this week upstart young Taliban leader Qari Zainuddin voiced his opposition to Baitullah Mehsud, leader of Taliban umbrella group, the TTP. Calling him un-Islamic for his viciousness, Zainuddin vowed to work with the Pakistani military. In no time at all, Baitullah had him eliminated. Meanwhile, on Tuesday, the U.S. mounted drone attacks on his people that killed over 50 people (likely, civilians again for the most part). It looks like Baitullah’s days are numbered. What effect do you think his death will have on the Taliban? Also, is the Swat operation the evidence the United States has been looking for that Pakistan is finally ready to face the threat within rather than without (India)?
great question. i wonder the same thing myself. i mean, right now, i am not looking for stories in pakistan. if someone, some years down the line, approached me and asked if i would go to write something, i’d think about it. but i decided that if i have to leave a country in a bulletproof car (as i did when the US consulate in karachi intervened to get me out of the country in august 2008), that was a pretty good sign that i should put some time and distance between me and that country. that obviously sucks, b/c i love being there and working there, but i don’t want to replicate the experience of wondering whether someone was trying to kidnap me again anytime soon.
Nicholas wrote:
Your career seems to be coming along nicely, especially considering that you’re still young. Didn’t realize you were with the New America Foundation now!
Yikes.
How did you get back UP to the car?!
FunnyDiva
Wow, you obviously have OUR respect and attention!
Tehran? How do you feel about what is going on in Iran right now?
It is so great you are educating us about the Middle East. Can only help the peace process to fight American indifference and xenophobia with education and real life empathetic stories.
you’re right that the drone noose seems to be tightening around baitullah. but he still might have some life, no doubt. as to how much his death would impact the pakistani taliban, you know, i think it could be a pretty severe blow, in fact. his deputy is arguably even nastier than he. the guy’s name is qari hussein, and if baitullah goes, you’ll be hearing more about him. qari is the one who apparently trains all the suicide bombers. they call him ostad-e-fedayeen, or the teacher of the fedayeen (holy warriors, martyrs).
and yes, i do think that the us is thrilled about the swat operation, but i am way of thinking too much that a change in will on the part of the pakistanis is equal to a change in capacity. in other words, just cause we’re all pumped about them getting serious abotu the taliban doesn’t mean that they can retake south waziristan anytime soon
Danger of civil war then.
yea, they essentially opened the door to me after i’d been deported and i have been very good to me ever since. it’s a great organization, for those of you who don’t know about it. it prides itself as being “radically centrist”!
well, i think that there are certain factions (both within the taliban and without) that could be played against one another, but it does run the definite risk of just having a bunch of guys fighting one another
Re Qari Hussein, I’m afraid he’s joined Michael Jackson:
I wanted to make sure we talked about this. . .
Americans have little idea how Benazir Bhutto’s assassination impacted Pakistan. Could you describe the rioting and the general state of the nation afterwards?
actually, the taliban most recently have said that the claim of his death is rubbish. most recent NYT piece about the predator stikes also confirms that and the guy who reported it, pir zubair shah, who is a good friend and who appears in the book several times, is a mehsud, so he’s super well informed
Nicholas wrote:
Back to “reports of his death have been. . .” Thanks for clearing that up.
definitely. her assassination had a profound effect on the country’s psyche – and the outside world’s understanding that pakistan was falling apart fast. immediately after her death, the rioting started. it was throughout the country, but most intensely in sindh, her home province and base of support. i was just outside peshawar the night it happened, and i remember driving back into peshawar, and seeing burning cars blocking the roads and hearing gunshots going off. it was a pretty apocalyptic scene. all the transport buses were racing out of the city so that the rioters couldn’t set them aflame.
back to sindh, because this was also where zardari, her husband and paksitan’s current president, was from. so while sindhis were chanting “break pakistan” are bb’s funeral, and the country seemed more prone to major instability than at any other time, zardari was the one who called for calm, saying, in sindhi, that “we want pakistan” and really showing some serious restraint and political maturity.
The depiction of Sindh in the wake of Bhutto’s assassination by Nicholas is worth the price of admission to his book in itself. But I could say that about any number of scenes in his book.
As long as you brought up Zardari. . .
In Pakistan’s Dawn a couple of weeks ago, Cyril Almeida wrote: “Much has been said about the Zardari presidency thus far and almost all of it is negative. From anyone other than his acolytes a familiar litany of complaints pours out: he’s too weak; he’s never here; he’s autocratic; he hasn’t a clue about governance. . . he’s unpresidential.” Yet, Almeida contends, between taking fighting the Taliban seriously and stabilizing the economy, Zardari has enjoyed some success. Do you agree that’s the case? If so, do you think Zardari knows what he’s doing — or is he just enjoying a run of good luck?
Or from another perspective. . .
How might Pakistan look today if it was still ruled by a military dictatorship? Or is General Kayani actually the power behind the throne?
Zardari is certainly far more complex and interesting than he is given credit for. when i went back to pakistan in august 2008, i was also reporting a piece about him for TNR and met him on the night that Musharraf resigned. i’ll always remember sitting across from him as he unbuttoned the top button of his shirt and proceeded to reach in, grab a tuft of chest hair, and begin twisting it around. classic zardari…
i do think he is taking the taliban seriously, not sure how much the gradual stabilization of the economy is his doing – or a global trend. i think that zardari is very rational and calculating, which was why it surprised me so to see him almost throw it all away this spring over his reluctance to reinstate the chief justice. (he did, in the end, but left himself seriously weakened vis a vis nawaz sharif).
his control over the military has often been questioned, even by me, but the military increasingly wants to be less politicized, and so therefore wants zardari to become more assertive. so i think his control over the army is slowly improving too.
a few months ago, i guessed that he would make it through whatever crisis he was in that moment, but wouln’t last another year. i am not so sure of that now that the army is both a) willing to listen and b) pounding the taliban
Returning to his wife’s assassination. . .
In February, the government of Pakistan asked U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to establish an international commission to investigate Mrs. Bhutto’s assassination. He finally appointed a three-person commission with a mandate “to inquire into the facts and circumstances of [her] assassination. … The duty to determine criminal responsibility of the perpetrators of the assassination remains with the Pakistani authorities.” Is this a sick joke — or a show of confidence in Pakistan?
Nick and Russ – thanks for the discussion on baluchistan earlier in response to my query – I’ve been AWOL for awhile while walking the dogs. Catching up now. Nick, my hat is off to you for all that you did while on your initial sojourn there.
unfortunately, i don’t really know how to read this. i mean, no investigation now is going to turn up anything. of course, the fact that the site was cleaned up so quickly raised all sorts of questions about possible conspiracies, but hey, live in pakistan for a few weeks, and you too can catch the conspiracy bug!
thanks maxcrat
This book sounds fascinating, and the discussion is wonderful. Thanks.
Some time back in another FDL book salon, I think, someone mentioned that it is more productive to frame the discussion of the impact of the Taliban on local populations not as theological but in terms of their criminal behavior. While the Taliban may be religious zealots, burning schools is actually seen as criminal behavior by the locals. They don’t want to take on the Taliban zealotry, but they feel some confidence in fighting back against their lawlessness.
The number of refugees is certainly increasing.
How strong is the Taliban in Pakistan? Are people afraid of the theocracy or is there any sympathy for it?
When you’re ready, Nicholas, my wind-up question. . .
The picture you paint of Pakistan is of a nation suffering near Somali-like levels of unrest and conflict. Yet you disagree with “those who said that ethnic tension, the Taliban, economic crises, years of military dictatorship, the lack of a cohesive identity and so on would eventually lead to Pakistan’s breakup. … It seemed more likely that Pakistan would continue to exists in a perpetual state of frenzied dysfunction; alive, but always appearing to be on the verge of perishing.” Just what is it about the Pakistanis that will preserve them from the proverbial “failed state”?
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
Nick, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book and Pakistan.
Russ, Thank you very much for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Nick’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
there’s a crucial distinction to understand about the image of the taliban in public eyes. many pakistanis like the “idea” of the taliban as basic, righteous muslims, who are perhaps a bit backwards and misguided, but whose hearts are nonetheless in the right place. but few pakistanis actually like the guys with the turbans and the beards and the guns. in that sense, the taliban are their own worst enemy. as you said, them burning girls schools is just shooting themselves in the foot. sure, they can flex their muscles and show their strength, but they are ultimately just alienating the population who they need for support.
as for the question of theocracy, i think that pakistanis want to live according to sharia, that’s it. they don’t want to be governed by clerics or live under a taliban state. but they want a government that is just and accountable. for too long, they haven’t had that, and that’s why the idea of the taliban was appealing.
Thanks, Nick and Bev. Catch you on C-SPAN, Nick.
Nick or Russ. What is attitude toward US re hearts and minds. Have the exhibits of Taliban brutality alienated the Pakistani civilians to an extent to soften attitude toward the West and its chase of terrorists? Or have the drones civilian casualties and refugee situation alienated them. Hearts and minds? Or is it factionalized so much as you implied, Nick.
What is the continuum of education and sophistication, etc., in Pakistan. Rural and urban people? Poverty level. Drug problems there? Opium crops?
Educated women from religious families. Do they feel conflicted? How do they feel about Western women and culture?
Oh yes, and the refugee situation! 2 million refugees already! What is that doing.
Thanks, guys. Awesome salon.
Catch Nick’s last answer, Libby.
Thanks, Russ. :) So busy composing, while the answers are flowing at me.
thanks russ. this is a great question to end on. you know, as i talk to people who have read the book, they describe their impression of pakistan (after reading the book) as doomed and headed to failure. i don’t think that. i think the overall narrative of pakistan and the problems is faces are sometimes depressing, but the people are so incredibly resilient and warm and hospitable. i try to bring them to life and give them the color and dynamism they deserve in the book. and you know what? just when the taliban seemed like they were ready to move on the capital two months ago, we saw a massive sea change in public opinion and the army suddenly take the problem seriously. my concern is that problems – whether taliban or ethnic insurgencies or the economy (which was bailed out by the IMF last year) – are allowed to gather strength. but i also trust that, once on the edge, pakistanis will always surprise us with their resolve.
many thanks to russ and bev and everyone else for tuning in. if you’re interested in keeping up with book events and reviews and such, you can check my website http://www.nicholasschmidle.com or FB page. thanks again for your interest in me and my work!