<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The White House, The Gays, and Lessons to Learn</title>
	<atom:link href="http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/</link>
	<description>Firedoglake weblog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 18 Feb 2012 02:42:08 -0600</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: JoeBuck</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1924143</link>
		<dc:creator>JoeBuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1924143</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The answer to bigoted briefs coming out of DoJ is not to run everything by the White House.  The DOJ is supposed to be independent, which means that we should be giving Eric Holder a hell of a lot more shit.  It’s Holder’s DOJ that’s defending every awful Bush abuse and filing bigoted briefs.  That doesn’t mean that Obama doesn’t deserve some blame, but the way to fix this is not by politicizing the DoJ.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We know that Little Miss Liberty University burrowed lots of wingnuts in career DoJ positions.  But they still have to take orders, and the order should come down that bigotry is out and the Constitution is in.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The answer to bigoted briefs coming out of DoJ is not to run everything by the White House.  The DOJ is supposed to be independent, which means that we should be giving Eric Holder a hell of a lot more shit.  It’s Holder’s DOJ that’s defending every awful Bush abuse and filing bigoted briefs.  That doesn’t mean that Obama doesn’t deserve some blame, but the way to fix this is not by politicizing the DoJ.</p>
<p>We know that Little Miss Liberty University burrowed lots of wingnuts in career DoJ positions.  But they still have to take orders, and the order should come down that bigotry is out and the Constitution is in.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: leliorisen</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923916</link>
		<dc:creator>leliorisen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:34:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923916</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The Obama administration’s DOJ did not just file a brief supporting DOMA, but also, unconscionably, also issued one supporting Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I was as ardent an Obama supporter as any, during the campaign. But, after learning he has no immediate intention of preventing gays to be booted under DADT (he could, at the very least, issue a stop-loss order, while the matter gets debated). I wash my hands of him.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There is only one thing that would get me behind Obama again, and that would be concrete action on GLBT issues of consequence. His words mean nothing. They are hollow.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I won’t hold my breath.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;By the way…kidcharles analysis is exactly right, imho. I think this was Rahm Emanuel’s strategy all along. Throw the gays under the bus to prove how centrist Obama is…figuring who would we turn to?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;They act like the rest of the progressive alliance won’t be offended, as well. Unfortunately for the Obama team, there have been too many instances of right-wing pandering for this strategy to fly.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If I were a betting man, I would say that this beginning groundswell may eventually conjure the memories of another groundbreaking moment in glbt civil rights, the Stonewall Riots of 1969. While this may not be as big or significant as that event, I think it would be wrong to undere-stimate the current level of rage bubbling below the surface in the glbt community. It started with Prop 8 and has been fueled by Obama’s broken promises.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A new wave of activism has arisen that hasn’t been seen in this community for a long, long time.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Cocktail parties for access, and conducting business as usual, just won’t cut it anymore.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Obama administration’s DOJ did not just file a brief supporting DOMA, but also, unconscionably, also issued one supporting Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.</p>
<p>I was as ardent an Obama supporter as any, during the campaign. But, after learning he has no immediate intention of preventing gays to be booted under DADT (he could, at the very least, issue a stop-loss order, while the matter gets debated). I wash my hands of him.</p>
<p>There is only one thing that would get me behind Obama again, and that would be concrete action on GLBT issues of consequence. His words mean nothing. They are hollow.</p>
<p>I won’t hold my breath.</p>
<p>By the way…kidcharles analysis is exactly right, imho. I think this was Rahm Emanuel’s strategy all along. Throw the gays under the bus to prove how centrist Obama is…figuring who would we turn to?</p>
<p>They act like the rest of the progressive alliance won’t be offended, as well. Unfortunately for the Obama team, there have been too many instances of right-wing pandering for this strategy to fly.</p>
<p>If I were a betting man, I would say that this beginning groundswell may eventually conjure the memories of another groundbreaking moment in glbt civil rights, the Stonewall Riots of 1969. While this may not be as big or significant as that event, I think it would be wrong to undere-stimate the current level of rage bubbling below the surface in the glbt community. It started with Prop 8 and has been fueled by Obama’s broken promises.</p>
<p>A new wave of activism has arisen that hasn’t been seen in this community for a long, long time.</p>
<p>Cocktail parties for access, and conducting business as usual, just won’t cut it anymore.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: kidcharles</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923875</link>
		<dc:creator>kidcharles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 02:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923875</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This is a cute list of tactical notes, but it naively assumes that the Obama administration means well it just got its messaging wrong. Their intent was to blow off the gay community in an attempt to position themselves to the “center” and preserve some kind of political capital they imagine is finite and have to use for more important things. They know damn well what they are doing. Your advice is for a fantasy administration that doesn’t exist.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a cute list of tactical notes, but it naively assumes that the Obama administration means well it just got its messaging wrong. Their intent was to blow off the gay community in an attempt to position themselves to the “center” and preserve some kind of political capital they imagine is finite and have to use for more important things. They know damn well what they are doing. Your advice is for a fantasy administration that doesn’t exist.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923869</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 02:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923869</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Rahm should talk to Nancy Pelosi about the marriage Contract. She comes from San Francisco and could probably get some goons who speek guud English to knock him around a bit. Heh.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rahm should talk to Nancy Pelosi about the marriage Contract. She comes from San Francisco and could probably get some goons who speek guud English to knock him around a bit. Heh.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: LarsThorwald</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923864</link>
		<dc:creator>LarsThorwald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923864</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think the next point of focus in Smelt is what the reply brief in support of the motion to dismiss will look like.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the next point of focus in Smelt is what the reply brief in support of the motion to dismiss will look like.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Softail</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923863</link>
		<dc:creator>Softail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923863</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This is a distinction pretty much lost on non lawyers. What they actually said was that states had a right to not recognize gay marriages because it was a matter of settled law that they didn’t have to respect marriages that they considered incestuous, even if the laws of the state in which the marriage occurred did not. I believe the example they gave was a man and his niece who were married in Italy where that’s legal.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In plain English that amounts to pretty much the same thing.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There’s plenty of other things in the brief to arouse disgust. For example, saying that it’s a rational position of the federal government to ration scarce resources by not giving survivors benefits to children of gay parents. Then consider their argument that Loving vs Virginia had no bearing what so ever on gay marriage because gay men could marry any women they chose. What particularly roused my ire was the glib statement that DOMA did not arise out of an animus against gay people. What planet do they think we are living on.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a distinction pretty much lost on non lawyers. What they actually said was that states had a right to not recognize gay marriages because it was a matter of settled law that they didn’t have to respect marriages that they considered incestuous, even if the laws of the state in which the marriage occurred did not. I believe the example they gave was a man and his niece who were married in Italy where that’s legal.</p>
<p>In plain English that amounts to pretty much the same thing.</p>
<p>There’s plenty of other things in the brief to arouse disgust. For example, saying that it’s a rational position of the federal government to ration scarce resources by not giving survivors benefits to children of gay parents. Then consider their argument that Loving vs Virginia had no bearing what so ever on gay marriage because gay men could marry any women they chose. What particularly roused my ire was the glib statement that DOMA did not arise out of an animus against gay people. What planet do they think we are living on.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: CTuttle</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923861</link>
		<dc:creator>CTuttle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923861</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Rachel Maddown ran with that same meme for awhile…!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rachel Maddown ran with that same meme for awhile…!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rayne</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923860</link>
		<dc:creator>Rayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923860</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Agreed, and on a postcard with URL so that it doesn’t waste time in security clearance. Goodness knows Rahm could use this RIGHT NOW.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Heck, fax it to him: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;202-456-2461&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, and on a postcard with URL so that it doesn’t waste time in security clearance. Goodness knows Rahm could use this RIGHT NOW.</p>
<p>Heck, fax it to him: <a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/" rel="nofollow">202-456-2461</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Phoenix Woman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923859</link>
		<dc:creator>Phoenix Woman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923859</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;…Doing so sets you up for instances such as the DOJ brief on a lawsuit challenging the Defense of Marriage Act, where they compared marriage equality to incest, among other things.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Except that’s not what the brief did.  That’s what John Aravosis says it did, to the great irritation of ethical lawyers like &lt;a href=&quot;http://lawdork.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/not-a-vendetta/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chris Geidner&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There have been many times in the past two weeks when I have linked to and re-tweeted items with which I agree and want to advance on AmericaBlog, but so long as John continues to repeat misstatements in his attempt to create a false impression of what is being done right and wrong by the Obama Administration, I will continue to point out that he is doing so.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Today already, more than 30,000 people have visited his site.  That’s a lot of influence.  When John continues to repeat falsehoods, he is influencing the debate, yes, but not in any way that will actually help advance the cause of seeking equality for LGBT people.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;[…]&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That John repeats the contention, without suggesting that anyone — let alone several preeminent legal scholars, from &lt;a href=&quot;http://newyorklawschool.typepad.com/leonardlink/2009/06/has-obama-administration-gone-over-to-the-dark-side-in-lgbt-issues.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Arthur Leonard&lt;/a&gt; to &lt;a href=&quot;http://hunterforjustice.typepad.com/hunter_of_justice/2009/06/when-does-justice-department-decline-to-defend-statutes.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nan Hunter&lt;/a&gt; to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid90000.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Laurence Tribe&lt;/a&gt;, who write extensively in support of LGBT equality — disagrees with his contention that Obama is “in his rights” to “oppose DOMA in court,” shows that John’s purpose is not to inform but to persuade and incite, facts be damned.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That John continues to write about “pedophilia” at all despite the fact that 16-year-old whose marriage was invalidated in the case cited in the brief — &lt;em&gt;Wilkins v. Zelichowski&lt;/em&gt;, 140 A.2d 65, 67-68 (N.J. 1958) — would today have reached the age of consent, if not the age at which a marriage would be found to be valid, in &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#State_laws&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;32 states&lt;/a&gt; shows that John’s desire to advance the “pedophilia” story is without any merit.  Moreover, as pointed out by PG in comments to the earlier post, this case was cited by none other than Lambda Legal in one of &lt;a href=&quot;http://data.lambdalegal.org/pdf/252.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;its own briefs&lt;/a&gt; — &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;for the same purpose&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt; it was cited in the &lt;em&gt;Smelt&lt;/em&gt; brief.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote>
<p>…Doing so sets you up for instances such as the DOJ brief on a lawsuit challenging the Defense of Marriage Act, where they compared marriage equality to incest, among other things.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Except that’s not what the brief did.  That’s what John Aravosis says it did, to the great irritation of ethical lawyers like <a href="http://lawdork.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/not-a-vendetta/" rel="nofollow">Chris Geidner</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>There have been many times in the past two weeks when I have linked to and re-tweeted items with which I agree and want to advance on AmericaBlog, but so long as John continues to repeat misstatements in his attempt to create a false impression of what is being done right and wrong by the Obama Administration, I will continue to point out that he is doing so.</p>
<p>Today already, more than 30,000 people have visited his site.  That’s a lot of influence.  When John continues to repeat falsehoods, he is influencing the debate, yes, but not in any way that will actually help advance the cause of seeking equality for LGBT people.</p>
<p>[…]</p>
<p>That John repeats the contention, without suggesting that anyone — let alone several preeminent legal scholars, from <a href="http://newyorklawschool.typepad.com/leonardlink/2009/06/has-obama-administration-gone-over-to-the-dark-side-in-lgbt-issues.html" rel="nofollow">Arthur Leonard</a> to <a href="http://hunterforjustice.typepad.com/hunter_of_justice/2009/06/when-does-justice-department-decline-to-defend-statutes.html" rel="nofollow">Nan Hunter</a> to <a href="http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid90000.asp" rel="nofollow">Laurence Tribe</a>, who write extensively in support of LGBT equality — disagrees with his contention that Obama is “in his rights” to “oppose DOMA in court,” shows that John’s purpose is not to inform but to persuade and incite, facts be damned.</p>
<p>That John continues to write about “pedophilia” at all despite the fact that 16-year-old whose marriage was invalidated in the case cited in the brief — <em>Wilkins v. Zelichowski</em>, 140 A.2d 65, 67-68 (N.J. 1958) — would today have reached the age of consent, if not the age at which a marriage would be found to be valid, in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#State_laws" rel="nofollow">32 states</a> shows that John’s desire to advance the “pedophilia” story is without any merit.  Moreover, as pointed out by PG in comments to the earlier post, this case was cited by none other than Lambda Legal in one of <a href="http://data.lambdalegal.org/pdf/252.pdf" rel="nofollow">its own briefs</a> — <em><strong>for the same purpose</strong></em> it was cited in the <em>Smelt</em> brief.  </p>
</blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Marion in Savannah</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923858</link>
		<dc:creator>Marion in Savannah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/25/the-white-house-the-gays-and-lessons-to-learn/#comment-1923858</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;While I realize that the White House is all 21st Century and techno savvy and all, with their Blackberries and such, I would suggest that a dead tree copy of this be sent to Rahm (at least) via snail mail.  It’s a great listing of all the ways Rahm and the gang fracked up.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I realize that the White House is all 21st Century and techno savvy and all, with their Blackberries and such, I would suggest that a dead tree copy of this be sent to Rahm (at least) via snail mail.  It’s a great listing of all the ways Rahm and the gang fracked up.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Dynamic page generated in 0.230 seconds. -->
<!-- Cached page generated by WP-Super-Cache on 2012-02-17 18:42:12 -->

