Comments on: “Targets of Opportunity”: Corruption, Contractors, and the Origins of the SERE Torture Program http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/ Firedoglake weblog Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:31:50 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: rb137 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917858 rb137 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:48:29 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917858 <p>I agree that they predecided what they wanted to hear (false confessions, for instance). I do not think that this is inconsistent with torture for sadism or experiment, though. </p> <p>Jesse Ventura mocked that given Dick Cheney, a waterboard, and one hour, he could have the former VP confessing to the Sharon Tate murders. What he doesn’t say is that at some point Mr. Cheney will begin to believe it himself…</p> I agree that they predecided what they wanted to hear (false confessions, for instance). I do not think that this is inconsistent with torture for sadism or experiment, though.

Jesse Ventura mocked that given Dick Cheney, a waterboard, and one hour, he could have the former VP confessing to the Sharon Tate murders. What he doesn’t say is that at some point Mr. Cheney will begin to believe it himself…

]]> By: Jeff Kaye http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917843 Jeff Kaye Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:41:44 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917843 <p>And because it keeps getting referred to, <a href="http://cryptome.org/interr-man.htm" rel="nofollow">here’s a link</a> to the relevant English language translation of Lesson 17 from the “manual”, “Interrogation and Investigation.”</p> And because it keeps getting referred to, here’s a link to the relevant English language translation of Lesson 17 from the “manual”, “Interrogation and Investigation.”

]]> By: Jeff Kaye http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917841 Jeff Kaye Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:39:49 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917841 <p>I don’t believe either bin Laden or Zawahiri will ever be brought in alive, one way or the other.</p> <p>And rb, yes, the Al Qaeda “manual” told them to expect physical torture, threats, beatings, nudity even, dogs even. I don’t think SERE/CIA gave a damn about real “countermeasures”, and they’d already thrown any idea of “rapport” out the window. They were on some other mission (false confessions, for instance), and thought they were hot shit; although I wouldn’t rule out torture for pure sadism, or torture for experimental purposes, of which I’ve written before, and these two other aspects had to play <em>some</em> part. We just don’t know how much.</p> I don’t believe either bin Laden or Zawahiri will ever be brought in alive, one way or the other.

And rb, yes, the Al Qaeda “manual” told them to expect physical torture, threats, beatings, nudity even, dogs even. I don’t think SERE/CIA gave a damn about real “countermeasures”, and they’d already thrown any idea of “rapport” out the window. They were on some other mission (false confessions, for instance), and thought they were hot shit; although I wouldn’t rule out torture for pure sadism, or torture for experimental purposes, of which I’ve written before, and these two other aspects had to play some part. We just don’t know how much.

]]> By: rb137 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917836 rb137 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:29:06 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917836 <p>And sometimes it just takes sugar free cookies. You’re absolutely right in what you’re saying.</p> <p>But I was not talking about “questioning” — I was talking about “interrogation.” The cowboy method of getting information was, I think, unfortunately mismatched to the al Qaida members’ game theory about torture. What resulted was a lot of suffering and even more confabulation and false information. Whether there was intent to provoke false confession or not is immaterial — never attribute to malice what you can explain with incompetence. </p> <p>I do agree with you in principle. But if the Pentagon, CIA, and W admin was brimming over with good listeners, we probably wouldn’t be busy fighting this anti-torture battle. I don’t think it was difficult for the CIA to figure out that al-Qaida operatives had an ideology that made them stubborn torturees…</p> And sometimes it just takes sugar free cookies. You’re absolutely right in what you’re saying.

But I was not talking about “questioning” — I was talking about “interrogation.” The cowboy method of getting information was, I think, unfortunately mismatched to the al Qaida members’ game theory about torture. What resulted was a lot of suffering and even more confabulation and false information. Whether there was intent to provoke false confession or not is immaterial — never attribute to malice what you can explain with incompetence.

I do agree with you in principle. But if the Pentagon, CIA, and W admin was brimming over with good listeners, we probably wouldn’t be busy fighting this anti-torture battle. I don’t think it was difficult for the CIA to figure out that al-Qaida operatives had an ideology that made them stubborn torturees…

]]> By: MarkH http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917788 MarkH Mon, 15 Jun 2009 04:55:53 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917788 <p>But, of course, if you know they’re more likely to talk when you don’t become their expectations then you can use that avenue (at least try it) to see if they’ll open up and talk when you ask politely. Sometimes just asking someone about themself and their life is enough. Sometimes just being a good listener is enough.</p> But, of course, if you know they’re more likely to talk when you don’t become their expectations then you can use that avenue (at least try it) to see if they’ll open up and talk when you ask politely. Sometimes just asking someone about themself and their life is enough. Sometimes just being a good listener is enough.

]]> By: MarkH http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917784 MarkH Mon, 15 Jun 2009 04:48:52 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917784 <p>Doritos are better anyway…at least most of the time.</p> <p>What a mess we’ve got. Can you imagine how the ‘interrogators’ would, er will handle bin Laden & al Zawahiri when they’re brought in? It ought to be interesting.</p> Doritos are better anyway…at least most of the time.

What a mess we’ve got. Can you imagine how the ‘interrogators’ would, er will handle bin Laden & al Zawahiri when they’re brought in? It ought to be interesting.

]]> By: libbyliberal http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917646 libbyliberal Mon, 15 Jun 2009 01:07:33 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917646 <p>As mentioned by Glenn Greenwald:</p> <p><a href="http://aclu.org/accountability/" rel="nofollow">http://aclu.org/accountability/</a></p> As mentioned by Glenn Greenwald:

http://aclu.org/accountability/

]]> By: Rayne http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917645 Rayne Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:27:25 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917645 <p>That’s okay, just confirms more digging needs to be done to rule out the other sources of funding.</p> <p>The last administration bled money - literally hemorrhaged money. I can probably think dozens of ways to fund M-J and this is only what I know, not the hundreds more ways which probably existed.</p> <p>Like the mysterious Lincoln Group, allegedly funded to the tune of at least $300 million for the purposes of managing perception and information in Iraq. Or the loose cash in the form of $9 billion which went walkabout in Iraq. Or some other contractor responsible for either information management or intelligence who did some fuzzy bookkeeping to subcontract M-J without leaving many fingerprints. </p> <p>Would be nice if there was a lawsuit or a criminal/congressional investigation which could pull tax filings, but even filings might not reflect the truth.</p> <p>We’ll just keep picking away.</p> That’s okay, just confirms more digging needs to be done to rule out the other sources of funding.

The last administration bled money – literally hemorrhaged money. I can probably think dozens of ways to fund M-J and this is only what I know, not the hundreds more ways which probably existed.

Like the mysterious Lincoln Group, allegedly funded to the tune of at least $300 million for the purposes of managing perception and information in Iraq. Or the loose cash in the form of $9 billion which went walkabout in Iraq. Or some other contractor responsible for either information management or intelligence who did some fuzzy bookkeeping to subcontract M-J without leaving many fingerprints.

Would be nice if there was a lawsuit or a criminal/congressional investigation which could pull tax filings, but even filings might not reflect the truth.

We’ll just keep picking away.

]]> By: Jeff Kaye http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917644 Jeff Kaye Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:16:35 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917644 <p>I looked, and found nothing, besides the article you found. But that may simply mean I didn’t dig deeply enough.</p> I looked, and found nothing, besides the article you found. But that may simply mean I didn’t dig deeply enough.

]]> By: Jeff Kaye http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917643 Jeff Kaye Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:15:52 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/targets-of-opportunity-corruption-contractors-and-the-origins-of-the-sere-torture-program/#comment-1917643 <p>I think you’re right, and yes, there’s already convincing evidence on this score. I’ll only add that some of the more egregious torture may have been simply sadistic punishment, and/or possibly experimental manipulation. Remember, the top coterie at Gitmo were walking around calling the facility <a href="http://valtinsblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/zubaydah-torture-experiment-connections.html" rel="nofollow">“America’s battle lab”</a> in the war on terror.</p> <p>The “Battle Lab” terminology, by the way, didn’t drop from the skies. I found the term used extensively in the <a href="http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA427377" rel="nofollow">Office of Naval Research document</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>The Army is undergoing a transformation from a traditional hierarchical structure to a more nodal distributed organization called the Future Force. In order to test the effectiveness of this organization and to determine if the new assigned roles and tasking are appropriate, several exercises have been conducted at the <strong>Army’s Battle Labs</strong>. We analyzed data from two of these exercises: a smaller exercise of 56 soldiers from the <strong>Fort Leavenworth Battle Command Battle Lab</strong> and much larger exercise from the <strong>Unit of Action Maneuver Battle Lab at Fort Knox</strong>, which consisted of over 250 soldiers in 6 different locations.</p></blockquote> I think you’re right, and yes, there’s already convincing evidence on this score. I’ll only add that some of the more egregious torture may have been simply sadistic punishment, and/or possibly experimental manipulation. Remember, the top coterie at Gitmo were walking around calling the facility “America’s battle lab” in the war on terror.

The “Battle Lab” terminology, by the way, didn’t drop from the skies. I found the term used extensively in the Office of Naval Research document:

The Army is undergoing a transformation from a traditional hierarchical structure to a more nodal distributed organization called the Future Force. In order to test the effectiveness of this organization and to determine if the new assigned roles and tasking are appropriate, several exercises have been conducted at the Army’s Battle Labs. We analyzed data from two of these exercises: a smaller exercise of 56 soldiers from the Fort Leavenworth Battle Command Battle Lab and much larger exercise from the Unit of Action Maneuver Battle Lab at Fort Knox, which consisted of over 250 soldiers in 6 different locations.

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