Dave, Welcome to the Lake.

Chad, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.

Welcome to Firedoglake – so glad you could join us today!

Hi. Great to be here. Looking forward to a lively afternoon.

I just read the intro piece and it was very generous. Thank you, Chad.

You did a nice job of crystallizing the book in a short space.

I think of Mr. D a lot, too. And Dave Sanders.

My first question is: What was the source of inspiration for you to write this book?

Welcome to FDL this afternoon Dave and Chet.

Dave, I have not had an opportunity to read your book so will ask the obvious question about your book compared to Michael Moore’s Bowling for Columbine.

Did Moore get it correct or is the movie superficial just because of the difficulty of getting to depth and detail through the camera?

Klebold and Harris — what percentages of the population have their pathologies?

Welcome to the Lake. Was it emotionally difficult to write the book? I haven’t read it yet but I will definitely.

Great question

Twain, you must read it. Extremely important and more then revealing.

Well I started covering it for Salon.com the first afternoon, shortly after it began. I spent the first month straight covering it, and then I thought I was done.

But two questions kept drawing me back: what drove these killers, and what happened to the community.

I’ll expand on that in a sec.

Dave

Like dakine, I have not had a chance to read the book yet. But I’ve been impressed by your public appearances.

I’m curious–when SHOULD it have been clear that the narrative was not what the press made it out to be? I understand the press too-quickly embraced a notion that fit into Hollywood stereotypes, but when was the evidence out there, and what did you have to do to put it together?

In the fall of the year before Columbine, my school system announced a two-year plan to determine whether the public schools should change to a uniform dress policy. The fall after Columbine, the students were in polo shirts (white or navy) and khaki or navy pants/skirts. No study completed, no system set up to determine that a uniform really made any difference in discipline or academics. (And I, from the nine years that followed, don’t believe it made a bit of difference, but that is anecdotal, of coursed.)

Do you have any information that school systems did learn anything from Columbine? Were there any practices or policies that helped relieve the stress that the name “Columbine” might bring to campuses?

Two important questions, amazing. Beyond thought provoking. As I was reading various other accounts, I asked the fist questions. Not until I read your book, did I begin to understand somewhat. However, I look forward to your revelations.

As a technical note, there is a “Reply” button in the lower right hand corner of each comment. If you are replying to a specific comment, just click the Reply button and it will pre-fill with the user name and comment number to which you are replying.

Makes it easier to follow the conversation :})

Dixie, good questions as well. That gets to the heart of policy. Many schools I know have gone in that direction.

It was actually the survivors that got to me first. The afternoon of the attack, it was chaos: kids crying, hugging, yelling. Everyone was emotionally raw. The next morning, it was completely different. None of the kids were crying. The boys, in particular, had this vacant stares.

It was terribly unsettling. I talked to the kids about it, and they knew they were shut down. They couldn’t feel anything. They were worried about it, but had no idea if, when or how, they would ever get back to feeling again.

I knew from that morning that I’d be with them a long time. I had to know how it turned out, how they got through it.

(Naively, a month later, I was emotionally exhausted, and naively thought I was done. No way. It kept calling me back.)

Were there any critics with regards to your accounts?

hi chad. just a firedoglake technical note: at the bottom right of each comment, there’s a reply button. if you click on it when responding, it’ll give us a better idea to whose comments you’re responding.

on edit: oops, while i was writing this, dakine already “showed” you the reply button.

(OK,I better start writing more concisely, or I’ll get WAY behind.)

I thought Bowling was quite entertaining, but didn’t have a whole lot to do with Columbine, and wasn’t a very serious take on the issues he brought up. I see Moore as more of a comedian, to put it bluntly.

great, I have it

I would have to agree with that assessment of Moore.

Oh, don’t feel overly pressured to be fast. This crowd appreciates substance and is pretty patient.

Best,
FunnyDiva

(OK,I better start writing more concisely, or I’ll get WAY behind.)

Take all the time you need. We tend to be a quite patient group of commenters. :})

Great question, but a little complicated.

We should never have gotten some of it wrong in the first place. That first week we should have known it was not about targeting jocks. (The Rocky Mountain News never fell for that one–but they were nearly a lone wolf.)

In Sept, 1999, I had a big piece in Salon subtitled something like “Everything you know about Columbine is wrong,” where I debunked most of the major myths. Then Time sent a team back and did an excellent cover story in Dec 1999. So by then we in the press knew–and should have gotten the word out–that the narrative was wrong.

However, we didn’t yet have an answer to why the killers DID do it. The key for me on that was getting to the team of shrinks the FBI brought in. For me, that took several years getting to understand it, reading the basic books on psychopathy and able to present it in a way readers could understand.

But we didn’t know the full story until the killers’ journals were released, which I believe was July of 2006, though the years run together. There were stories done on those, but there was 1,000 pages, and two complex minds to unravel. It’s not something the media could have presently, intelligently, in a short period.

Dave, as you begin to write. Two questions emerged for me:

What can be done to stem the tide of youth shootings?
What should we conclude from the youth that shot up their schools in Peal, Mississippi, Paducah, Kentucky, or Springfield, oregon?

Did the parents ever view the Basement Journals?

Yes, huge changes. Some of the most important were simple: getting current blueprints of the school layout and alarm codes, etc. in local police HQ. Schoolkids and teachers are drilled now on responding. But the most important are:

1. Taking threats seriously (more than 80% of school shooters warn someone they’ll do it)

2. The police response. The Active Shooter Protocol.

I did a piece for Slate this April that fills in more on that, called The Four Most Important Lessons of Columbine

http://www.slate.com/id/2216122/

My son, now 18, became focused on Columbine, so he bought your book as soon as it came out. Heck, he told me ahead of time about its expected release. He read it in two days, handed it over to me, and told me that it hadn’t given him vastly more than he’d already found on his own, but that it was such a good job of putting it all in one place, in handling the myths with firm debunking but emotional consideration.

I knew before I started reading that I wouldn’t be disappointed. I already think highly of my son, but your work made him surprisingly eloquent in his recommendation.

I don’t think it would have happened if you weren’t invested in the reality of the survivors.

Dr. Hare estimates that about one percent of the population is psychopathic (scary), BUT they are rarely violent. Sadistic psychopaths like Eric are a tiny fraction of one percent.

I’m afraid I don’t have a percentage on teen depression. Perhaps someone here does (or can google a reliable source).

Dixie, as an educator, I am more then thrilled that your son has this book. In addition, to this, it would be wonderful for parents and youth alike to share this book, and to have book dicussions on it. To begin the discussion of prevention and intervention.

A couple critics panned the book, including Janet Maslin for the daily NYT (and I think maybe the SF Chronicle). I think all the rest were positive, that I know of.

Randy Brown father of Brooks Brown, is very unhappy with the book. He is convinced it was all about bullying, which I find puzzling, but his right. Randy has also complained that psychopathy lets Eric off as “crazy,” though I think that’s a big misunderstanding of psychopathy. (And also, Eric is what he is. It was not my job to decide whether the truth–as I could determine it–of Eric’s condition was an answer we would want.)

Yes, it was very tough. I had two bouts with secondary PTSD–which I didn’t even know existed.

The relapse was a complete surprise, in 2006, after I wrote the two hardest chapters, and then there were a string of four school shootings in ten days (including the Amish one-room school house.) I completely broke down. But I got help.

BTW, the hardest chapter was expected: Dave Sanders bleeding to death. The second-hardest surprised me: writing about Dylan’s funeral. I then felt guilt about feeling so bad about that, and very conflicted feelings that took me a long time to resolve.

I wrote about it in this piece this April:

http://www.borders.com/online/…..0090407_NR

Many that I have spoken to with relation to Eric as a psychopath, want to know if we should add Eric and Dillion to the list of Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, or Jeffrey Dahmar. Should we add them to this list? If so, why, If not, why not?

On stemming the youth shootings, I’d refer to that Slate piece:

http://www.slate.com/id/2216122/

On the shootings in Peal, Paducah, etc., I have to confess that I’m not an expert on that. There is definitely a copycat effect going on, but we also have to look at each case individually, and be cautious about generalizing. The FBI and Secret Service both determined that there is no useful profile of the school shooter, though the vast majority had suffered something that they perceived as a significant failure or loss.

Dave you are resilient and self help is essential. Dave Sanders and the Book of God were revealing and hard for me. However, you writing this, we cannot even imagine what you went through as well as the pain for that entire community of Jefferson.

Have you seen Gus Van Sant’s movie Elephant? Any thoughts about it?

If you mean the killers’ parents, yes, they both watched The Basement Tapes and were given the journals some time after the murders. (I think not until at least Dec 1999, when the other families were allowed to watch.) Kate Battan told me that she watched the tapes with both sets of parents. (I can’t recall for sure if they both watched all the way through, but I think so.)

All the other victims’ parents were also given the opportunity to watch, and most did. Some watched only partway and decided that was enough.

Thanks, Dixie. I really appreciate that.

And yes, the info is all out there. It’s just a matter of whether you want to dig through tens of thousands of pages to get it all, and read lots of books on psychopathy, etc. That was exactly my goal: to take this giant story, which affected so many people, and get the gist of it between the covers of one book, so that readers could take it all in.

I agree with your articulation that we should not generalize. The media however generally “deracializes” incidents of white deviance. We often offer up a quixotic melodrama: good kids gone wrong, sympathetic, misguided. Do we get caught up in our race and class stereotypes about what “danger” looks like?

I wonder what impact the tapes had on those parents and the trauma that they may be enduring.

Hey, I’m typing away madly here trying to answer your questions and come close to catching up, but I want to pause for a sec to thank you guys. These are wonderful questions, and I appreciate you coming, and showing such interest in this.

Dave, take your time, we really want to know what you think. The post will stay open a while after the Book Salon ends to continue comments.

Just ordered the book and you got some really great reviews at Amazon.

I echo those same sentiments. As the host, I appreciate it as well. I must also inform everyone that I shared with Dave how this book needs to be used as a teachable moment, and as a tool of liberation, hope, and faith. I informed my colleagues at the University of Pennsylvania schools of nursing, education, social work, law, and criminology that their students in the coming fall semester need this book. This is a must have, a must read, and beyond enlightening.

I think maybe I was trying to go TOO fast on that one. I feel the need to get two points across: 1) Yes, honestly, ten years on this subject has beaten me up pretty bad, emotionally, but 2) I love writing. I REALLY love it. I enjoy what I do immensely, and wouldn’t trade it for anything. I’ve gotten great satisfaction unraveling what were to me great mysteries, and great joy from the writing.

Given all that, I’m a lot happier since I finished. I didn’t feel it lift like a great weight the day I turned the page proofs in last October, it was a little more gradual. It was during November and December that my friends started commenting on how gleeful I was again–more of my old self–and I noticed that I wasn’t crying much anymore.

I’m so glad I did it, and so relieved to be done.

Dave,do you think there is something that can be done to change school atmosphere(for lack of a better word)to be more welcoming,more of a community for kids? Would that help stop school shootings in your opinion?

My son’s school had the dad of one of the victims speak to the school,but it focused on the story of the girl that was shot because she said she believed in god. My son came home really upset by all this,and I was kinda peeved parents weren’t told and given an opt out. It was more about religion and less about how to prevent this from happening again.

Thanks, Chad. Getting help is key. At first I was just ignorant of journalists absorbing the grief, but with the relapse, I was just a goofball: I had learned all about it by then and was just too pig-headed to accept that I was displaying the very symptoms I was describing in the survivors’ stories.

But I got help eventually.

A lifesaver from me was discovering The Dart Center for Journalism & Trauma in 1999: http://dartcenter.org/ (They are now part of the Columbia Journ School.) I eventually became a Dart fellow, and they taught me a great deal about more empathetic coverage of victims, but also better treatment of myself.

They have a great website, with lots of resources, including a great PTSD 101 primer (written by Dr. Frank Ochberg, who was one of the people who first created the diagnosis several decades ago.)

I really disliked Elephant–for a couple reasons, but most of all because I think he had contempt for high school kids. I don’t recall a single intelligent line of dialogue between students in the film. The kids I got to know were incredibly articulate about what they were going through–just unable to resolve it.

There are two great films on Columbine, though:

“Zero Day” (or Zero Hour?), largely about the killers (it got an Indie Spirit Award nom, BTW),

and

“April Showers,” mostly about survivors–including the killers’ friends. It just came out this spring.

As a social worker and social change agent, I use to be in denial with relation to hurt and pain. I would travel outside of the country to third world places and would have emotional breakdowns due to what I was either researching or observing. I would put it off as if it never ever occurred. Now I know that we are all wounded healers.

That’s really interesting about what danger looks like. Most of our most notorious domestic mass murderers have been white, yet that doesn’t seem to affect the image, does it? I’m not sure why that is. Any ideas?

Zero Day

April Showers

Zero Day

April Showers

I will keep an eye out for both movies.

Is the pathology of the boy killers related to the pathology of domestic terrorists? Is there any way to calm these people down?

Dave, I applaud you for tackling your PTSD issues and letting others know about it. Patience Mason, the wife of Robert Mason, a Nam Chopper pilot wrote a book for families of PTSD vets but I think it has valuable information for anyone.

I know from sources there that both sets of parents were devastated by watching and reading. I am less certain, but believe that they probably also got some degree of comfort in the sense of gaining some understanding. But I’d really like to ask them if that second part is true, and how much so.

And keep in mind that we’ll probably get four different answers. Four different people, four different reactions.

One thing I’ve learned on this story is that survivors can/do have polar opposite responses to the same situation. I described one of those in the book, where John and Kathy Ireland were speeding to the hospital after they’d been alerted that Patrick had been shot in the head. They had gotten the same info: shot in the head, but could answer questions. Kathy thought it was good news–if he could answer questions, it couldn’t be bad–and John thought shot in the head meant horribly bad.

They were sitting inches from each other, drove the whole way there and had no idea they were in completely different places. They didn’t know until YEARS LATER! And this is a very close couple.

You may not get to this point, but I have to say that I see something of what Mr. Brown is saying. But the bullying did not come from the jocks, as incorrectly reported; the bullying came from Eric and Dylan.

Bullies were thought to act out of low self esteem so that teachers would try to counsel the bullied students to understand the bully’s insults told everyone about the bully’s own insecurities and fears. But we’ve come to find that the bullies usually have high self esteem and act as bullies through a sense of entitlement.

Mr. Brown may see this sense of entitlement strongly in the shooters’ actions well before the actual day of the shootings.

Great question.

Dave, as a researcher I think we ought to look at the fallacies of white suburban denial and the blindness that besets so many of the residents in these ‘nice,” places. Many of these incidents are seen through the lens of apathy, indifference, or even amusement. Boys will be boys, until tragedy happens.

Much appreciated Chad. I would love to get the book into the hands of more people in education. (At least make them aware of it; they can decide whether it’s useful.) I sure think there is a great deal to learn from this huge story. I would not have stayed with it this long if I didn’t think so.

I find it interesting that in white communities boys will be boys but in other communities males that act out are criminals. And some “boys” are never required to really grow up.

In Chapter 2-Rebles-We learn how about how Dylan tried to emulate Eric. Did Eric try to emulate Dylan?

Within the smoker’s gulley, were there any warning signs that may have gone undetected by their peers?

In Chapter 3- Springtime- We learn of the other school shootings that were taking place at that time. Did the school ever speak to their students about this from a preventive measure perspective?

I think there are ways to change the atmosphere, and it seems to happen one school at a time. I have talked to many teachers about this. A big part of it making it clear to kids that it’s not all right to pick on kids less capable of handling it. That means teachers reacting each time when it happens.

But I also think there is something more basic, which Frank DeAngelis talks about all the time: That before a teacher can start imparting any knowledge, she or he has to let those students know she cares about them. And that can only happen if she actually DOES. Kids are smart. They can sniff a bullshitter a mile away. They know when you care. If you don’t, you’re in the wrong field.

He makes the point that kids learn when they want to: when you make them feel the urge, and part of that is feeling respected, feeling loved. If they walk into your room, and they feel no empathy, they are turned off, and they may learn some alegra from you despite yourself, but it will be a battle.

It think the same holds true for other sorts of values. If a teacher notices a bully picking on a kid and calls the bully on it, if the kids respect the teacher, that can have tremendous impact. If they don’t, they will likely snarl at the teacher and learn nothing.

That is why I think our message to those who believe that are societies are like Leave it To Beaver, Father Knows Best, and the Brady Bunch, come to realize that these things can happen anywhere. Moreover, I wonder how many of these families after the tragedy moved or at least took their children out of the school.

Dave, once again through this amazing account we learn in the chapter about Two Columbines. What is Columbine like today?

That face-to-face leadership is always the key but it’s not really something that can be “taught” to prospective teachers do you think?

One more thing on welcoming kids–especially the marginalized ones. I think we have to be realistic and realize that some kids are going to be pushed to the margins: whether they look funny, have disabilities, they’re gay, uncoordinated, awkward, shy, depressed or just unusual . . . etc. There are always going to be kids who arrive with the deck stacked against them, and if we just let the natural high school Lord of the Flies process run itself, it’s going to be ugly.

Faculty need to reach out to those struggling kids: from the first day freshmen year, before they are so ostracized and their ego so ravaged that there is time to help them fit in. There is always another kid or many kids out there for the most oddball kid to befriend. Sometimes he needs help finding him/her.

I think all teachers and admins know this, but some put a much higher emphasis on spending their time on it. (And some administrators make it a priority so teachers will; others ignore it.)

It should not be ignored. When a kid arrives at school feeling like crap in the morning, how much is he/she likely to learn? And at what cost?

We hear about the seven big bombs, journal entries where they report that they would like to top McVeigh. Where were the parents? Furthermore, we learn from the reading that Eric and Dylan planned this for a year to echo Oklahoma City as Tim McVeigh had done with Waco? Has there been any information with regards to anyone attempting to encho what Eric and Dylan did?

You are so right on that. I was one of those marginalized kids and without a couple of teachers and a drill sergeant (yep, a DI with empathy in 1966) I would have been even worse off than I was.

Thanks for those links. That helps.

There is also a lot of music which has captured big and small bits of the killers in profound ways.

NIN’s album “The Downward Spiral” is utterly brilliant. It’s no coincidence Dylan saw himself in that. There are songs on there almost too painful to listen to. “Hurt” is terrible to behold, as is Johnny Cash’s cover.

Oddly, Peter Gabriel’s “Family Snapshot” gets some of the essence of Eric, I think, in his self-absorption in the thrill of creating this huge spectacle, all about him, even though it involves killing the president.

I’ve been keeping a list for a thing I’m going to do for LargeHeartedBoy.com (where they have authors list what music influenced their book/writing and why). I’ll see if I can think of more. Definitely some Graham Parker.

Yes! My son is autistic(Asperger’s),and the kids in middle school were horrendously evil to him. High school is better(he just finished 9th grade),but he’s struggling to fit in and find his place. High school seems to be better(many more caring adults and kids),but it’s going to be an uphill struggle for him.

Dave,

This community seems to be a community of faith. In fact, Chapter 7- Church on Fire- We learn that Satan, is seen as an actual, physical entity, hungry for compliant souls. With regards to faith, is there hope for this community? Can the killers be foregiven? Is redemption possible? What would be the barriers with regards to redemption, foregiveness? Who can lead this charge? How does hope look like with regards to this? Some in the faith community say that God gives and foregives, man gets and forgets. I would like to think that hope can emerge, that redemption is possible, that reconcilation is more then possible. But I lend pause for you to answer.

Terrorists are not all one type either. The best book I know of on understanding them is called “Terror in the Mind of God” (by ??? Jurgensmeyer, though I may have misspelled.)

Some sadistic psychopaths are attracted to terrorist orgs, because it gives them an outlet: within the group, it’s socially acceptable and even encouraged to act out their vicious schemes. But in general, psychopaths are opportunists in that way, playing a relatively small role, and not the drivers of terrorism.

I think the forces driving terrorism are very different from school shooters. (However, Eric did figure out that he could use the TACTICS of terrorists for his own aggrandizement. Very scary. Let’s pray others do not follow his lead.)

Thanks, I’ll check that out.

You’re right that Eric suffered from HIGH self esteem, not low. (I’ll have to take your word for bullies in general. I have not researched that.)

Dylan had extremely low esteem.

Yes. The “boys will be boys” can be an extremely risky line to take.

Raven, I often think of those teachers and mentors that guided me. I would not like to think of where I would be without them. I guess youth on all sides of the color-line need a Mr. D in there lives.

“Look to your left,” he told them, “Look to your right.” He instructed them to study the smiling faces and then close their eyes and imagine one of them gone. He told them to repeat after him: “I am a valued member of Columbine High School. And I’m not in this alone.” That is when he told them he loved them,as he always did. “Open your eyes” he said. “I want to see each and every one of your bright, smiling faces again on Monday morning.”

We all need a Mr. or Mrs. D

We all need a book like this

We all need to know a dedicated person like Dave Cullen

How tragic that they met. Things might have been very different although it sounds as if Eric might have gone on
to do some serious damage to others anyway.

Anyone who lists their military background as “Private and Second Lieutenant” is ok by me!

I have to say that one of the most striking things that came from my research on the GED and dropouts was that quitting school was a very good choice for quite a few students.

An off the wall question for you, gentlemen:

In connection with your interviews in Columbine, did you meet and talk with a man named Jon whose last name begins with D, from Alabama ? I want to give him some privacy, so I’d rather not give his full name, but he’s been assisting the families for years, and is a good friend of mine.

With gratitude,
Heather

“Did Eric try to emulate Dylan?” Well, they did seem to riff on ideas together, and some phraseology that appears to come from Dylan turns up in Eric. So Eric cribs from his partner sometimes. But I didn’t see any sign of Eric actually emulating, no.

Oh, there were all sorts of warning signs among the killers’ peers: pipe bombs, napalm . . .

But it’s important to view them through the kids’ eyes. That was sort of my Golden Rule of the book: to examine each situation from the person in it, not from my vantage point. I had ten different storylines, each with its own lead character(s) and for each one, I conceived it and tried to communicated it from the point of view of the characters in it. That includes kids, teachers, parents, cops, etc.

So put yourself in the shoes of a sixteen-year-old friend of Eric and Dylan. You and your friends are making road trips up to Wyoming to by firecrackers, which you love setting off. Surely there are all sorts of minor rivalries in who can make the biggest bang, the craziest whatever. Some of the boys have taken it a step further, and torn up firecrackers to dump the powder into little PVC pipes to make bigger explosions.

To you, how does that look? I would predict that if that’s you, and you’re sixteen, it probably just looks like your buddy outdoing the rest of you on a bigger bang.

And if you’re really perceptive, it might also trigger a little ping, where you think, “At least I hope so.” Some kids might have been uneasy about these crossing a line. But I think that for the vast majority of kids, they will brush off that tension and keep it to themselves. The idea that the friend would think, “Hmmmmmmm, I wonder if he’s planning to blow up the school,” seems unlikely, to put it mildly.

That was all the pre-Columbine world, though. Post Columbine, I think many kids will question pipe bombs, and do.

In Chapter 3- Springtime- We learn of the other school shootings that were taking place at that time. Did the school ever speak to their students about this from a preventive measure perspective?

“Springtime- We learn of the other school shootings that were taking place at that time. Did the school ever speak to their students about this from a preventive measure perspective?”

I don’t believe so. I don’t think many schools did at that time. Columbine changed that, for sure.

Thanks and throughout the reading of the book, I had to remind myself to look at it through various lens.

Yes, it can definitely happen anywhere.

On enrollment of Columbine, very few families took their kids out after the incident. The district was expecting a high number, but it never happened. (It’s not a big deal, because Jeffco has an open enrollment system, where you can apply to go to any school in the county, as long as there is room. So there was already a system in place to easily shift people.) Columbine’s enrollment actually went up in the fall of 1999. More students requested to transfer in that out.

As we come to the end of this very interesting Book Salon,

Dave, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book and all the events surrounding Columbine.

Chad, Thank you very much for Hosting this great Book Salon.

Everyone, this is an important book for understanding Columbine, if you have not bought the book yet, here is a link.

Thanks all.

(Dave / Chad if you want to stay and answer questions, the post will stay open for a while.)

Dave, thank you very much for being here today. I’m looking forward to the book.
Chad, great job hosting. thank you.

Wow interesting. I wonder what the increase can be contributed to. I would embrace an opportunity to view that data. Not sure to what that (increase enrollment)speakes to.

A month ago we had the professor murder three people about 4 blocks from my house. For the first couple of hours no one knew who or why but the police reacted as well as could have been expected. You never know.

Thanks for having me as the host. Thanks to all that were here, and Dave Cullen, God bless you man.

Thank you so much for your book and your dedication.

Believe it or not, Columbine went back to being very much like it was. Kids there now don’t even think of it in terms of the tragedy that happened there. They were 4-8 and most barely remember it. Most who do remember it more in terms of a time where their family and/or community was tense and in crisis, but as little kids, they did not really comprehend why.

Physically, most of the school is unchanged.

Mr. D is very focused on looking for those marginalized kids, and the faculty and admin are very aware of what could happen, but the kids seem mostly oblivious to it.

They probably figured lighting wouldn’t strike twice.

Thanks for being here.

I would like to politely disagree with the diagnosis of Harris as a psychopath. Now, in the long-run, I don’t think this makes a whole lot of difference, but I think it is worth commenting on. I believe the more accurate diagnosis is the personality disorder of narcissistic personality. I have been a licensed psychologist since 1982, and a mental health professional since 1975, and have done my share of forensic evaluations. Folks need to keep in mind that a personality disorder is not a mental illness per se. The key to the differential diagnosis of Harris as narcissistic rather than anti-social personality(the currently used term for psychopath) is the sense of entitlement that seems well documented on Harris’ part. Our local infamous killer, Dennis Rader (aka BTK), like-wise has been mislabled as psychopath whereas in my opinion he too was a narcissist, but with a deviant sexual pattern of arousal as well.

This in no way is an aspersion on Mr. Cullen’s fine work. DM

Thank you. As I read the first part, I was all set to agree (until you brought me into it). I feel the same way about the mentors I had. I mentioned some in the acknowledgments, including a high school teacher who had nothing to do with writing. She gave me something much more important: she made me feel good about myself.

(There was very little of that in my life–feeling good about myself–when I was in high school. It was a rough time for me. Much harder than this book. hahaha. But true.)

Exactly. This particular event would probably not have happened if Eric and Dylan never met. And there’s no way to know what would happen. But I think odds are very high that Eric would have done something just as horrible, and quite likely worse, if he had lived longer.

“Anyone who lists their military background as “Private and Second Lieutenant” is ok by me!” Hahaha. I enlisted as a private and expected to remain one, but they sent me to Officer Candidate School.

That’s really interesting, and a little surprising and very sad about GED kids: that it was good for them to drop out. Do you mean that the school experience was so harsh for them, it was better to get out? Ouch. How tragic is that?

Sorry. Jon D, from Alabama is not ringing any bells, but there are so many people doing so many good things, I only met a fraction.

(It was nice of you to protect his privacy, BTW.)

Thanks, Bev.

I’m still trying to catch up, and will keep going to #98. Thanks.

Chad, you were a wonderful host. I look forward to checking out your work. One of the most rewarding parts of my job is meeting interesting people doing revealing work.

Dave, did you see the post with regards to hope, forgiveness, and redemption?

Dave, I will be reaching out to you in the fall. I would like to provide a forum for you to speak to students at the University of Pennsylvania if you are open to it.

I looked in the DSM-IV, I may have to agree with you.

I have a habit of accepting things like what these boys did and see nothing wrong with their behavior. I find it disconcerting that psychologist and analyst would try to waste their time trying to get to the bottom of their behavior?
Has anyone yet discovered the dynamics of tragedy and the Greek formula for it? Somebody commits a boo-boo and that somebody has to pay the consequences. The boo-boo in this case appears to have been jocks screwing around with these kids and the school administration looking the other way?
If that isn’t a tragedy waiting to happen! The Tragic Flaw was the School System.

We may have issues with wives running over their husbands with mack trucks after or poisoning them or contracting their deaths when they are wronged, but these kids were wronged and if the school was too lax in addressing those wrong, why are you blaming them. If I upset a beehive, shouldn’t I expect a response? What is this University of Pennsylvania stuff talking about. Have you ever read Titus Andronicus?

I talked to Mr. D and some of the shrinks about the transfers in, and let’s be blunt: there are some people who like to be close to the center of attention. There was a certain thrill to some, and a lust for the limelight for some.

That was not a big thing, and I left it out of the book–small number of people, no big impact.

But there is also the touchy subject that some legitimate victims began to crave the spotlight, the attention. Some were deeply conflicted, because all the media attention angered them, but they liked it, too. Some survivors have been really candid with about how they got a bit addicted to it. That passed, in time, but is kind of interesting.

Yow. It’s good to hear the police responded well.

Columbine changed the primary protocol from defensive to offensive–IF the shooter appears active. (If he’s in a holding pattern, you go back to older methods. (It’s more complex, of course, but that’s the gist.))

Thanks very much. I figured that might be the case, but thought I would try.

With gratitude,
Heather

Whoops. I missed this one. (A later post reminded me of it.) I hope I didn’t miss others. I may have, unintentionally.

I would definitely add Eric to that list, but not Dylan. Dylan came at it from such a different place. Mass murderers don’t usually work in pairs, but the so-called dyad is significant minority of these. And they rarely pick someone like themselves. Psychopaths almost never work with another psychopath. They’ve got that part down. They need their compliment. Dylan was like the flip side of a psychopath in most regards.

I dropped out on my 17th birthday at the direction of the judge in Du Page County. Got my GED inn Korea in 67 and then did a tour of the Nam. I was able to weasel my way into the U of I in 69. My doc work was in Adult Literacy and I took a look at why people quit, why they went back and what sense they made of the process. I had a small population so there are no sweeping generalizations to be made. What I did see was peer situations, in two cases because of cross-racial friendships, that made life miserable for the students. I also had a “non-traditional” older adult who grew up dirt poor in the Georgia mountains and he and his sibs were tormented by the other kids.

Yea, I’m actually going to be working on such a course for our system here in Ga.

Don’t worry, there were so many wonderful questions and the overall interaction was amazing. I did post one with regards to faith, hope, redemption, and foregiveness. You may come across it.

Thanks for your point of view. I have had that discussion with some, but Eric is such a perfect match for the psychopath–which includes the sense of entitlement you cite.

I think part of the problem here is terminology–which varies within subfields. While it is true that “anti-social personality disorder” is the diagnosis in the DSM-IV, and there is no official term for psychopath in there (for complicated reasons), all the leaders in the research of psychopathy who I spoke to strongly disagree with equating the two, and make a strong case.

Psychopathy is a tiny subset of ASPD.

I think you are correct that diagnosing Eric as ASPD is rather useless–indeed, many criticize ASPD as being a useless diagnosis.

When you look at the much more specific 20 criteria of The Psychopathy Checklist, it’s all Eric.

Ah, yes. I’m a big goofball for zipping right past that.

A lot of the discussion of this book inevitably swings to the killers, which is understandable, because we really want to understand what caused this.

I felt that, too, and spent half the book on them. But the other half is about the victims and particularly the survivors. Eight of the ten main storylines are about the survivors. There is a great deal of hope in these stories, and redemption.

The past couple months, I’ve heard a lot of people asking whether the book is too tough to read, and I’ve been relieved to hear other readers responding. There is murder in this book, but there is also Mr. D. There is Patrick Ireland, tumbling out the second-story window on live national television with a shotgun pellet burrowed six inches into his school you made an amazing recovery–and who forgave the boys who shot him. That’s what got me through writing the book.

Dave, thank you again for writing the book and for spending time here with us at Firedoglake.

Columbine is one of those historic / emotional events that if you say the word – everyone knows what it means; but represents different things to everyone.

Thanks again,
Bev

That sounds wonderful. Thank you, Chad.

Hopefully this is already obvious without me saying it, but I love talking to students. They keep you on your toes! That’s a good place to be. I always come out of the experience enriched.

(Speaking of which–I hope this was as energizing for you all as it was for me. I’m getting hungry, but I’ve really enjoyed this afternoon.)

Dave, did you ever see or meet the boys parents? I think of them trying to get through this and can’t imagine how.

Check out The Psychopathy Checklist. I believe I included all 20 characteristics in the endnotes.

The parents have not spoken to journalists for publication, except with I believe two exceptions, both the Klebolds: to an author for background about teens and to David Brooks in 2004.

I would love to talk to both sets of parents when they’re ready.

Whew!

Looks like I made it to the end. Only 36 minutes over.

This has really been a pleasure. Maybe I should have said this before, but I’ve got a lot more material on my website, here: http://davecullen.com/columbine.htm

This has been the most energized I’ve been all week. Thanks to everyone for being so engaged. And thanks to Bev for setting all this up and Chad for being a wonderful host.

Bye.