splitting the difference from what?

single payer universal healthcare? or some other pre-capitulation i never signed up for?

What frustrates me is the thought of how good our healthcare system could be if even a fraction of the effort and ingenuity invested in its failure was invested in its success.

Spot on. There seems to be a presumption in our business sector and among our political leaders that delivering a quality product at a fair price can never be profitable. Instead we get overcharged for crap.

I suppose the notion that a having a healthy populace would benefit the economy is a tad too abstract for some folks.

At this point, I think it’s a matter of whether the public option will be viable and meaningful, or an empty sham. (Or completely nonexistent)

If there’s no viable public option, then healthcare “reform” probably *improves* things for the insurance companies at the expense of everyone else.

Topic on Bill Moyers tonight

The trigger is nothing but a bunch of Blue Dogs and Third Ways with a gun to our heads. Big Insurance hit men.

The only way their can be no trigger is if we demand anyone who uses the term public makes it very clear the definition of public doesn’t just mean everybody pays, but that everyone may participate. Otherwise the trigger to me just means divide and conquer.

Except it’s not the trigger anymore, now it’s the co-op. And if there aren’t enough suckers to buy the co-op, it’ll be something else, and something else after that.

They are going to keep offering up all this nonsense, in order to counter the Universal Health Care that Europe & Canada have.

At the end of this, there will be a Public option and private insurers will either match it or become extinct.

Selise, thanks for liveblogging that hearing yesterday !

I love their horror story approach that they’re using to try to discredit socialized medicine: You’ll have to wait for care! There’ll be rationing!

And that’s different from the insurance companies how?

“Nice health care plan you’ve got here. It’d be a shame if anything happened to it . . .”

I understood the trigger to mean the following.

First it affirms there will be a cut off.. not everyone will have the option to join a public plan… but will be forced to buy private coverage as we have to do with liability motor vehicle insurance. The trigger just picks an income level which one must fall below in order to be eligible.

So the new dirty word of the week is co-op, but I wouldn’t declare trigger dead yet… certainly not in principle.

Besides.. as long as we are divided I think trigger (their word) is a golden opportunity for creative activists to develop slogans against these cretins. jmho.

We need slogans fast… and distribution of them as if it were election day Nov ‘08. Yards signs, bumper stickers, t-shirts, songs etc. It’s time to fight… don’t cede the trigger yet.

Smoke and mirrors is all that big medical money has to offer, what CEO wants to lose the golden goose of tax payers money? the only true option to taming the beast IS Single Payer!

Fair enough. But there will almost certainly be a neverending parade of these scams, and I’m fearful that one of them will catch on.

That graphic…very disturbing.

Eli !

Apologies for forgetting the shout out earlier … how’s it goin’, eh ?

Pretty good, you hoser. How’s that socialized medicine treating you?

yeah, well, i’ve been told similar for months. guess i’m too stupid to be that savvy.

BILL MOYERS: One of the subjects not in the debate over health care reform is single-payer. And contrary to what many people think about it being a far left proposal, the polls show that it has substantial support among a large swath of the American people. Many of whom would not call themselves far left.

But Senator Baucus said, its not in the discussion because we’ve gone too far now to go back and consider single-payer. There it seems to me is a very good example of how a legitimate idea gets delegitimated in the debate between the powers that be.

JAY ROSEN: I think it’s a classic example of the real religion of the Washington press, which is savviness. And from a problem-solving point of view, we would certainly want to consider single-payer, because it’s an important option in a debate. But from a savvy point of view, the inside players know that single-payer is never going to be the answer. And they’re already factoring that into their political calculations about what’s likely to result.

Which in a way cuts off the debate that we need to have. And so, the inside players in Washington are able to kind of contain the debate by anticipating the outcome, and then talking about the things that are most likely within that set of assumptions.

It sucks, dood … dudn’t remburse fer Beer or Back Bacon !

Sigh. Funny how compromise is practically an end in itself when Democrats are in power, but barely even conceivable when Republicans are (except when it means Democrats giving up even more).

please excuse my bad manners…. i should have at least greeted friend eli first!

evening eli, i hope you are well.

Good Lord, man. Maybe you need a co-op or something.

Evening, selise – I guess I’d better be.

Healthy populace at the expense of Big Tobacco, Big Oil, cell phone vendors and giant agribiz? They’re intent on killing us slowly and reaping the profits that way. The cell phones cause brain tumors and giant agribiz is killing us with GMO corn syrup, hormones and insecticides. Big oil and tobacco need no explanation.

Health insurance finishes us off with bankrupcy.

A successful parasite doesn’t kill its host. It’s, like, Rule 1 of parasiting.

Agreed wholeheartedly… let’s keep swatting pesky flies with every new buzzword.

howdy petrocelli!!!

that hearing also gave me the chance to give some links/sources for folks who wanted some background on single payer universal health care (info, bills in congress, etc).

I don’t know how much attention this got in your MSM but having Congress agree to have Tobacco regulated as a drug by the FDA was a very good thing. I believe it was something the Clinton admin. tried to do but failed.

Conyers sounds serious enough … will have to see if he gets Waxman and others on side.

oh wow! now i get it!!!

it turns out that actually the whole healthcare reform non-debate reforminess thing has been a GREAT success!!! the trick is in knowing how to measure success. here’s how, from national nurses: Follow the Money on Healthcare

What Happened to Single Payer?, the Washington Independent asks in a recent article.

One answer, the Independent suggests, comes from Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. John Conyers, authors of the single payer bills in the Senate, S 703, and House, HR 676:

Both lawmakers argue that private insurers, who have a fiduciary duty to shareholders, are the wrong folks to dictate who receives what care when.

“The function of a private health insurance company is not to provide health care; it is to deny health care,” Sanders said last week. “Every dollar of premium that a health insurance company does not spend on health care needs is a dollar more in profits.”

If the policy provisions that seem to be deemed politically acceptable seem to be those that most accommodate the healthcare industry, perhaps it’s time, as the adage says, to follow the money.

USA Today released data showing that the biggest drug and insurance giants have amped up their lobbying spending by 41 percent this year to make sure that reform gets done right — for them anyway.

20 of the largest health insurance and drug companies and their trade groups spent nearly $35 million in the first quarter of 2009, up more than $10 million from the same period last year

Good for the bootlegger business. /s

it’s one thing to lose a policy debate. it’s another thing to be shut out.

Both lawmakers argue that private insurers, who have a fiduciary duty to shareholders, are the wrong folks to dictate who receives what care when.

Ya think?

It’s doubly frustrating, because not only are they not doing the right thing, but they’re not doing the *popular* thing either. If healthcare “reform” is a disappointment, a lot of its backers are going to lose their seats. Maybe even Obama, if the Republicans manage to run someone credible against him.

It sucks, dood … dudn’t remburse fer Beer or Back Bacon !

well – sheeeeit.

I’m out.

’sup, Petro?

Jayt !

How’ve you been, dood !

oh, here’s another cheery report:

June 12 (Bloomberg) — Health-care overhaul legislation being drafted by House Democrats will include $600 billion in tax increases and $400 billion in cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel said.

one of the things that happened with the MA reform is that costs were so much greater than planned, they’ve gone and cut healthcare services for the poor. so those in greatest need are likely to be worse off than before reform.

oh, you know – good.

Engaging in inane arguments, getting modded, you know – the usual. *g*

P.S. I totally deserved the modding.

Oh well….

And now that the administration has effectively shut out the gay community entirely, with today’s DOJ brief, I wonder how they expect to get the voter push to get this back on track? I guess they don’t, eh? I agree with Andrew Sullivan (I never thought I’d say that!) : I’m getting an uneasy feeling that we’ve been had on many, many levels. I didn’t expect miracles but I also didn’t expect this level of maintaining the Bushco status quo on so many issues that are important to progressives. Time for a mojito~

i sure don’t understand politics, but could this been another episode of stupid AND immoral?

here’s how it looks to me:

* we could have something like hr 676 (everyone in, no one out, all financing out of taxes – so no premium, copay, coinsurance, etc) for the same total cost the country is now paying. and the dems would have a lock on power for 20 years. it could be really big – like social security.

or

* we could let the insurance companies devise some crappy plan (maybe even with mandates and penalties to make sure everyone HATES it) that costs too much and the dems could go down in defeat, hated even by their base.

……..

(i know it’s not as black and white as that. i exaggerated, but not a lot, for effect)

Co-op is two letters shy of cop out!

Yeah, I feel much the same way. Although I’m perhaps less surprised that he’s backtracking on his promises to the LGBT community.

Give the people what they want and they will vote for you. Give them crap and they won’t… unless the alternative is worse.

The bottom line is that corporate money means more to them than the votes of individuals, because they’re confident that they can always translate the former into the latter, no matter how badly they’ve fucked things up.

another episode of stupid and immoral?

Don’t feel bad. I got deleted the other day, and rightfully so. Still hope the dude saw my comment, though. *g*

20 of the largest health insurance and drug companies and their trade groups spent nearly $35 million in the first quarter of 2009, up more than $10 million from the same period last year

Aha, putting their members premium payments to good use. We know where we can cut $35 million real easy and up to $140 million a year. That’s not exactly chump change. Think of that every time you have a co-pay.

heh. Sometimes a man’s gotta do….

Even if it is stupid. I *did* mention the man thing, right?

Great point.

Yeah. The devil made me do it.

Yeah. The devil made me do it.

Both of ‘em?

heh.

ROFLMAO

turns out that pete stark resubmitted his public plan bill back in january! (thanks to ralphbon for telling me) – which even this single payer extremist thinks doesn’t look so bad (i really want to know what BargainCountertenor thinks of it though).

but apparently the public plan advocates have been ignoring it too?

anyway, i’ve got permission from drsteveb to cross post his diary on it – so i’ll do that tomorrow morning over at oxdown.

Healthcare reforminess is such a perfect term.

How much coffee do you ingest in a day? Or is it delivered by IV drip? Have you ever been paid as a researcher?

LOL!!!

not enough, i wish, yes.

We can see how much of a stink is raised by the lukewarm “public option” idea, and what a den of wolves Congress truly is.

Luckily, our President seems to be insisting on the public option. Seems to me most people will choose the public option (I probably will since I have no insurance at the moment, along with 47 million others), and thus be a slippery slope into a Canadian style system, which would make most people here happy. Hardly 11-Dimension underwater chess. Just smart tactical politics.

Of course, I could be just another Obama rube wowed by his sermons from the mountaintops.

Topic on Bill Moyers tonight

not in Indy.

Normally, I have the distinct pleasure of waiting til 2:00 A.M. to watch Moyers.

Tonight, however, they’re just blowing him off altogether.

I love my job where I live.

yes

Ah, so desu ka. I knew there was something I liked about you.

Unless yer on dial up, go here.

It occurs to me that I haven’t said hello to our always gracious and engaging host.

Or something.

I think I’ll go with the “something”. *g*

Hey, Eli!

P.S. thanks, S.D.

Hey, jayt!

aw, thanks. (((SD)))

so, eli (or anyone) how do we tell the bogus reform from the real thing?

at the moment, i’m not inclined to give larry’s summers’ economics team the benefit of the doubt whatsoever about any FIRE regulation. but i don’t want to work against a good thing either.

Meanwhile in Pennsylvania, single payer is making good progress
http://www.correntewire.com/si…..nnsylvania

I thought the guidelines in Jason’s post were pretty good. It’s probably also a safe bet that anything coming from a Republican or conservadem is not to be trusted. And anything coming from a mainstream Dem who gets a lot of money from the insurance/healthcare industry needs to be looked at very closely.

Woohoo! Penacchio’s a good guy – I really wanted him to beat Casey in the primary.

I think this is a matter of actually reading the bill and deciding for ourselves. I don’t feel comfortable buying anything from either the congressional advocates or naysayers on this one. Congress has a really bad habit of adding poison pills to legislation.

Evenin’, Eli. Yeah, my manners suck.

Plus I owe ya your beverage of choice.

Dr Pepper, as always.

Matter o’ fak I gots one ratcheer.

i’ll take a look, but so far jason has been long on the talking points and low on the substance (see, for example, my first link @16). it was actually quoting him as if he was a reliable source that set me off when i first read your post (not that you should know the back story, but he’s been defending a private insurance based reform since last summer. although, not with any real policy debate. lots of savvy though.).

Huh. He sure didn’t look pro-private-insurance in that post.

thank goodness we have BargainCountertenor for that!

I gotta admit – I don’t get Andrew Sullivan at all.

I mean – he’s already come outta the closet with the Big One – so how come he can’t admit that he’s a Democrat?

Mayhaps cuz he’s a British citizen?

Evening, Eli and all-
I think the longer this goes on, the more chance that one of the fake reform ideas will get traction. The time is now, to try and turn this debate into single-payer vs. greed, bankruptcy, and death. Along with the fact that many forced into bankruptcy had insurance…and that didn’t save them. As long, loud, and publicly as possible.
“single-payer extremist.” I like that.
Anyone know of a good drink using Dr. Pepper as a mixer?

single-payer extremist

Has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it?

Not No, but Hell No.

This is a matter of religious belief

If you think of his purely in terms of self-interest, if Democratic legislators were motivated by nothing but selfishness, they would take this opporunity to betray their former paymasters in the health insurance industry. Not only would they get the credit from the voters that you mention for actually delivering such a substantial benefit, but they would also, at the same time, take from the industry the profits it might use to seek vengeance by supporting their potential opponents.

Unfortunately, we’re not dealing with crooks here. If we were, the considerations you and I have outlined would have bought them out from under the industry, and we would now be celebrating the dawn of single payer. Instead, our politicians are mostly sincere believers in what amounts to the state religion of the USA as of 2009, the unquestioned faith in the competence of people who make a lot of money, and that only such people could possibly know what they’re doing. Even the recent crisis in our markets hasn’t shaken that faith, and even this opportunity to seize however great a political advantage by giving us single payer, will not tempt them to do so over the corpse of the industry. They really are shocked at the prospect of even the delayed and gradual demise of the industry that a fair public option offers. We can’t kill all of the adults!

Hey SD! How’s the civilized side of the Bay tonight?

Yeah, I think a lot of Democrats, not just the overtly conservative ones, secretly want to pull off fake reform to please their insurance industry donors. They just don’t want it to be too obvious.

I don’t think it’s so much blind faith in the competence of the insurance industry, so much as gratitude for all the money they’ve received from it, and an unshakeable belief that they can use that money to make the voters forget what feckless fuckups they are.

That is the distilled essence of what’s going on. My compliments.

Quiet and muggy. You’ve got most of the music over there, though.

That and 79, I agree. They’re just not to be trusted to act in the interests of the common good. Sounds cliche but they become cliches for a reason.

to add to gtomkins and eli….

there’s something else that just occurred to me… if we were to go with a good single payer system (maybe something like the one taiwan implemented in 1995 after studying our medicare?), that might be a blow to their egos. i really do think some people can’t admit, even to themselves, that the usa is not the very best at absolutely everything.

The time is now, to try and turn this debate into single-payer vs. greed, bankruptcy, and death.

i agree.

howdy rond!

It would certainly be a blow to their campaign war chest. We put the vultures out of business that leaves a ton of dust not going to campaigns or lobbyists. Self interest.

Reminds me of a scene from the 1993 film Gettysburg. Gen John Buford (Sam Elliott) arrives at Gen Meade’s hq on horseback. Someone asks him how he found the place. Buford says, “Old Indian trick. Follow ceegar smoke, find white man there.” Substitute “money” for “ceegar smoke.”

added benefit!

think i’m going to post drsteveb’s diary on stark’s public option proposal, and then hit the sack….

Yeah, my eyes are beginning to slam shut.

Namaste

here’s the link:

DrSteveB: Strong Public Option: 100% Coverage & Cost Control

Eli, Jason Rosenbaum does a decent job of demonstrating that Conrad’s coop idea does not meeting even the mediocre standards of HCAN, the organization that pays Rosenbaum’s salary. But please do not make the mistake of pretending that HCAN and its spokespersons constitute honest brokers of ideas on health care reform.

HCAN deliberately censors news on single payer, despite the progressive orientation of many of the groups that — prematurely and hopefully now to their regret — signed on to the coalition and, more to the point, despite the fact that single payer is making genuine news.

Scroll through the archives of HCAN’s “news blog” if you don’t believe me. On May 5 and then again on May 12, doctors, nurses, and other advocates were dragged out of Baucus’s Finance Committee health care hearings in handcuffs. Not a single item on this on HCAN’s “news blog.”

On May 22, Bill Moyers devoted an entire hour to single payer. Plug “Moyers” into HCAN’s search engine and you find…nothing! A coalition of supposedly progressive organizations blows off BILL MOYERS, for chrissakes! What goddamn nerve.

This week’s hearing of the House HELP subcommittee, the first hearing ever devoted to consideration of the HR 676 single payer bill with 80 cosponsors, evaded mention entirely on the HCAN’s “news blog.”

Also this week, in countering AMA’s resistance to reform, Rosenbaum notes that a “significant minority” of AMA’s membership supports single payer, which he calls a “more radical version of reform” than the one HCAN supports. In fact, he neglects to note that the very report he cites regarding the significant minority of AMA members also notes that 59% of physicians overall support single payer.

The problem with HCAN treating single payer like an embarrassing pothead uncle nobody wants to talk about is that this leaves the right wing and insurance apologists free to demonize single payer. Giving single payer the Sister Souljah treatment allows HCAN to position itself to “centrists” and Rethugs as representing the “reasonable” voice of reform. This despite of, really in contempt of, the widespread support for single payer among its coalition’s constituent groups.

HCAN’s response (expressed in some comments Rosenbaum has made in Oxdown comment threads) mirrors that of the Organizing for America dude I wrote about here and is always some variant of, “Hey, we’re with you. We support single payer too, but we’re just being pragmatic about what’s achievable. Why are you mad at us?”

And my response is, Fuck you. Stop marginalizing us. Stop ignoring us. Stop distancing yourselves from us to placate centrists and right-wingers. Follow the more honest approach of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, which says forthrightly, We support single payer whole-heartedly and without embarrassment, but if we can’t get it now, we’re pushing for the most robust, single-payer-like public option we can possibly get, with an eye toward transitioning to full single-payer, or something like it, down the road.

Funny! I can imagine someone lugging an IV through a library and drawing curious looks from people around. Pretty good image for a comic. LOL

and his voice did bellow across the world to all who would unclench their fists and his whispers could be heard by young girls even in the land of Wisconsin

Heh

Your family physician by any chance?

BTW, did y’all hear they have found traces of cocaine in Hong Kong produced Red Bull?

I agree their feelings are genuine. Putting new ideas into the public sq. for consideration stretches their imagination and lets everyone consider the pros & cons of said.

There is a danger they’ll simply be overwhelmed and reject the discussion altogether. That’s where some leadership (over the discussion, not the outcome) is useful.

Where the issue begins to be resolved is when a lot of people begin to agree on what ideas are useful and good or bad. Somewhat after that a concept is likely to emerge/crystalize. At that point somebody will shout Eureka and claim they invented something new and wonderful.

It’s an odd psychological phenomena, but a big idea or concept usually emerges from the foundation of many ideas and experiences, but we somehow conceive of the big idea as the inspiration and foundation for what follows.

A caveat is that having the big idea isn’t and shouldn’t be seen as *the end*. Even from that point of structure one can have more ideas and experiences which lead to another later big idea that’s even better.

Don’t let your ideas own you, use them like tools … keep sharpening the axe.

It isn’t necessarily cynical lying. Sometimes people are only capable of so much change at one go. Give them time, push them through iterations and let them find what they’re comfortable with and things like segregation disappear. Let it just lie there and then very little will change.

We’re in a very high pressure situation at the moment and we need more ideas and concepts and plans to iterate through, so people can really soak it in and eventually settle in on the thing they feel will be acceptable change for the better.