Sen. Joe Lieberman (ID-Conn.) and Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) threatened to hold up any and all legislation in the Senate until Congress passes its legislation to prohibit the release of photos showing detainee abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan.
“We’re not going to do any more business in the Senate,” Graham said. “Nothing’s going forward until we get this right.”
Both Senators said they were alarmed that a House-Senate conference committee on the supplemental war spending bill appears poised to eliminate language — inserted by the two Senators — that would block public disclosure of detainee abuse photos. The $90-billion-plus bill has been held up, in part, because House Democratic leaders have said they do not have the votes to pass it with the detainee photo provision included, because many liberal lawmakers have balked at the language.
So now the Senate has added it to a bill that would allow the FDA to regulate tobacco products, too.
Harry Reid slipped Lieberman-Graham into the supplemental almost without notice on May 21:
Mr. REID. Therefore, Mr. President, I make a point of order en bloc that all pending amendments are not in order postcloture except the following: Leahy, No. 1191; Brown, No. 1161; Corker, No. 1173; Kaufman, No. 1179, as modified; McCain, No. 1188; and Lieberman-Graham, No. 1157; further, that amendments No. 1161, No. 1173, No. 1188, and No. 1157 be modified with changes at the desk, and once those are modified, the above six amendments, as modified if modified, be agreed to en bloc; that the motions to reconsider be laid on the table en bloc; and the following amendments be considered and agreed to in the order listed: Lincoln, No. 1181 and Hutchison amendment No. 1176, as modified; and that the motion to reconsider be laid on the table; further, that the bill, as amended, be read a third time and the Senate proceed to vote on passage of the bill; that upon passage, the Senate insist on its amendment, request a conference with the House, and that the Chair be authorized to appoint conferees, with the Senate Appropriations Committee appointed as conferees.
Joe Lieberman will add this to every bill to go out of the Senate and Harry Reid will help him, because he doesn’t want Lieberman to force a big showdown where all the Democrats in the Senate are forced to oppose the President in order to oppose the bill.
This is the kind of thing you do to embarrass the opposition party, by the way.
Boy that decision by Senate Dems to support Lieberman over Ned Lamont in 2006 sure was a winner, eh?
Related posts:
- Breaking: Lieberman-Graham Dropped From Supplemental
- Senate Likely to Need 60 Votes to Insert Stupak Amendment into Health Care Bill
- Nine Democrats “Just Say No” to Graham-Lieberman
- Breaking: Obama Writes Letter Opposing Inclusion of Graham-Lieberman in Supplemental
- As Inhofe’s Climate Bill Boycott Continues, Kerry, Graham, Lieberman Try End-Around
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These 2 motherfuckers, and Lightbrain Harry, need to go. Period. I could carve better men from a goddamned banana.
Is it 2012 yet?
What is Harry Reid’s hold on power?
Sick of these people, who have nothing else to do, threatening to do this or that unless they get their way. What a bunch of pinheads. Although the pictures are important I think most people would rather the Senate concentrate on jobs, health care, and the wars.
Wasn’t Democratic control of Congress, along with a Democratic President supposed to put an end to the constant capitulation of Dems to Republicans? Wasn’t that the whole point of electing the Dems with strong majorities? Does the Dem leadership remotely care about how they will sell themselves in the next election — especially to activists who work so hard to elect them, when they spend their days stabbing the activists in the back? Do they really think our choices are so limited, that there will be no price to pay for this?
I know Harry Reid is up for election. Maybe he can do us all a favor and run on the Republican ticket, since that is the party that gets his support.
EEyup!
Sure was good for the Party & Country…eh?
OT but are we still boy7cotting DIGG or have they changed their policy about diverting traffic to their site???
Up The Revolution, volunteers?
Sounds right — isn’t this how passive-aggressive Short-Ride sees the Democrats these days?
When Pach interviewed Reid regarding Lieberman, Reid claimed that Lieberman voted with us on everything but the war. Reid said that he needed money and Lieberman gave him the money. Reid said that the Senate is a collegial body.
Here’s Reid acquiescing to Lieberman again.
How come you never see two assholes holding up the Senate for a progressive cause?
The right way to do it is follow the L A W . These photos are OUR property and we deserve to see where this scum bag rug rip off artist linsay’s policies lead us. There is a court order to release our property to it’s rightful owners. If we did nothing wrong the photos will show our humane Geneva Adhering sons and daughters treating people as we would treat a senator, no?
These photos are of the disgusting , vile TREASON that lindsey ignores.
Welcome aboard flight 2010.
We’ll be flying at an attitude of extremely pissed off.
Lead, follow, or get out of the fuckin’ way.
Lurvs me some Airplane.
The pictures show the war is a winless lie that must be drained of the puss that it has built up.
Bring them home stop the insanity today.
Because anyone who supported progressive causes wouldn’t be a asshole.
I can’t believe that frickin’ DODD is gonna be the senator with the tough re-election campaign coming up!
Of course, that may be because so many Republicans love them some Joe here in the Nutmeg State.
:)
Dodd’s coziness with the banksters is coming back to haunt him.
Maybe if they would act like assholes, standing up for what they believe, instead of getting rolled at every turn, we might get somewhere.
Charming language that’s used here. Anger issues anyone? I guess moderators here only chastise and warn non-koolaid drinkers.
Since 6 out of 10 Liberals and 62% of all Democrats side with Barack Obama that the photos should not be released — isn’t it clear that those here that take the opposing point-of-view are nothing but a fringe extremist minority? Not to mention rude and vulgar when someone disagrees with them? As a pragmatic Liberal progressive Democrat I see it that way.
Pay attention to people like me. There are tens of millions of us. We care about real progressive issues like gay marriage, a woman’s right to choose, ending the war in Iraq, the environment and helping the working class.
We don’t believe in policy based on hateful, blood thirsty revenge. Stick to your guns Barack Obama millions of Democrats support you on not releasing the photos.
Well, he wasn’t so cozy when he helped pass the credit bill. And he claims to be going after the interest rate issue, too.
I’ll bet his GOP challenger will get a boatload of contributions from the industry this time around.
Got a problem with my language? Get over it.
I see your point. Mine is a nuanced perspective. There are assholes who support progressive causes on the campaign trail, and jettison them in the Senate seat.
These same assholes could potentially hold up the Senate for a progressive cause, if support of said cause would help to insure re-election of said asshole. If an issue is not going to help win re-election.
Oh, that Harry Reid. What a leader.
I can handle personally your language. I just think it’s indicative of rudeness and shows a lack of civility. I would hope that Democrats can agree to disagree on some issues without being disagreeable.
And former president and crypto-BlueDawg, Bill Clinton.
Lieberman may be slimy, but he is just doing what President Obama wants done: suppress these unseemly photos and thereby, ‘Protect the Troops’!
as Glenn Greenwald has put it:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..13/photos/
I would add to phreds post – yes they really do think your choices are so limited, and this is what allows them to act the way they do, year in, year out.
If the progressives could call for a vote of confidence in Hairy Reid we could clear up a bunch of this BS.
I’m new here and until I am censored and thrown out which I am sure will happen at some point in time – I will continue to politely and intelligently agree or disagree on the issues discussed here based on the merits. I’m sure we would agree 90% of the time, people do not have to agree on everything. These is lots of gray in complex issues.
My mantra is to be pragmatic and retain power, appoint Liberal Supreme Court Justices and effect whatever change you can. It is not to go so far to the left that you alienate moderate America and insure a one-term Obama presidency and a return to GOP control of Congress.
rudepundit is good. You might like his blogginess.
Incidentally, Obama flip-flopped on the picture release. He was for the release, until he was against it. The release would be a catalyst to prompt investigations and prosecutions for war crimes. Is it fair that the common citizen be subjected to the full weight of the law if he breaks it – as Government officials get a pass? Forget fair. Is it Constitutional?
I’m not a Democrat. I’m way to the left of that. The language is not that of anger. I’m not about to use politically correct language to please virgin eyes or ears. If there were a worse term to label Short Ride and Graham I’d use it. Now, if this were the site for the nuns of the Joy of Heaven convent I’d moderate my language, but it isn’t. This is a site by, for and of feminist, foul-mouthed, politically incorrect dirty fuckin’ hippies. You can’t live with that, that’s your problem.
Why do I get the feeling that Juno has come back to haunt us?
Back to the cesspool.
Namaste
No it’s not my problem — your vulgarity and rudeness is your problem. I didn’t realize this is a site for “femininist, foul-mouthed, politically incorrect dirty fuckin’ hippies”. Why doesn’t Miss Hamsher describe it as such then?
I applaud your honesty saying you’re not a Democrat though.
The time is rapidly coming when the Democratic party will have to split in two. The Blue Dogs need to either start a new party or join with their natural partners in what’s left of the Republicans. The Progressive wing needs to stand up for the voters who put them in power and get agressive in advancing their agenda. Centerism and bipartisanship is bullshit. When they were in power, conservatives never hesitated for a moment to freeze out minority party input from the legislative process and then rub their noses in it; it’s time for the Progressives to deliver some well deserved beat-downs to both the Blue Dogs and the runt Rethugs. Lieberman-Graham is as good a place to start as any. No more compromise, no more consideration for a group of mad dogs who were thrown out of office in the last election.
Oh, really? I mistook you for a concern troll. My mistake.
Wow it’s stuff like this thread of comments that has chased me away for here.
redfish is a delicate flower, averse to unpleasant images, uncouth language, and the rule of law — best to leave such plants potted in a shady spot, lest they wilt from the heat and light of direct sunlight ; )
Toodily pip!
The bill should die in the senate and ALL THE FUNDING FOR THE WAR IN IRAQ BE CUT OFF. Graham and Lieberwocky should be dispatched to Iraq to supervise the IMMEDIATE WITHDRAWAL. And should stay until they are the LAST TO LEAVE..
So 40% is fringe? Maybe someone ought to tell the Republicans…
When someone has double-crossed you repeatedly there is good reason for anger.
There are tens of millions of us who disagree as well. The FOIA was passsed specifically to address the witholding of information that the government felt would be embarassing. This is just more of the same. Additionally, since the Obama Administration has already decided to withold the photos, this is nothing more than an attempt to short-circuit the legal proceedings on the matter.
Neither do we. This isn’t policy-based revenge. This is about violations of domestic and international law, the photos that prove it, attempts to CYA in the face of legal proceedings and general douche-bagginess.
Liebermann has been sticking it to progressives in revenge for his loosing the primary fair & square. he was defeated because of his positions on a number of things. Since his near loss of his seat, he has rarely missed a chance to stick his thumb in our collective eye. Most of us here are sick of it. The anger and vulgarity are an outgrowth of that anger, which is wholly justified. If you don’t like it, you are welcome to disagree or leave.
how about a new formation, grass roots, that can function on its own, and then accept progressive (D) defectors, if any?
the Democrats are not going to schism anytime soon, if you want to be able to vote for your values you’ll have to look elsewhere.
its a marathon, not a sprint, as I’ve been reminded. but time to start running in the other direction than Democratic Senator Arlen Spector, former Democratic Vice-Presidential candidate Joe Lieberman.
Thanks for responding civilly with your opinion which I respect.
I think Barack Obama made the right decision. There is nothing new in those photos that we don’t already know about. Rape, torture, abuse. At a time when Obama is reaching out to the Muslim world in a way that we have never done before this is not the time to have pictures like that plastered on the front page of every Muslim daily and television station. It would put diplomats and soldiers in danger and only serve to exacerbate hatred of America.
I choose to respectfully disagree and stay.
How can anyone who hasn’t seen the photos make a judgement about their release? Besides which, the issue isn’t the release of just these photos, it’s giving the President ( and others?) the ability to hold back any future documents they might decide to. Kinda guts the FOIA.
Actually, if there is nothing new, then there is no reason to withhold them. Based on claims by such unimportant and inconsequential figures as Leon Panetta (you know, the head of the CIA…), I tend to believe there is actually quite a bit more there.
If you think the Muslims don’t already know of the atrocities, you are deluding yourself. Releasing the photos with apologies and appropriate investigations/prosecutions would be much more likely to win respect and belief in his sincerity, if not friendship from the Muslims to whom he is reaching out than burying them with the same old lame, tired excuse that “we’ve seen it all already.”
Yes, the photos may re-inflame the anger of Muslims, but as it stands, they are assuming that we are covering something up, and from statements made by other people in the government, it appears to me that they are right. If the photos are simply released, yes it will endanger our people on foreign soil. If they are presented with sincere apologies and accompanied by open and truthful investigations and prosecutions under the law, we may be able to defuse that anger.
Most of the world already believes the worst about this country. Releasing photos and other documents, then holding those responsible for illegal behaviour will go much further in repairing our standing in the world than pretending we can hide this stuff.
Nope. It would also serve as evidence in a criminal trial.
That’s what all this hiding behind skirts is about — keeping politicians out of jail. I find the use of our troops as human shields in your argument appalling. They are already in harm’s way. You are only serving the interests of criminal politicians.
Our conduct in Muslim countries is already well known in those countries. It is not as well known here and that is the venue for this information that Graham and Lieberman fear the most.
Lieberman and Graham! What a pair of Fascist f**ks! No surprise from me regarding this two idiots, or Harry “the scumbag” Reid for that matter. Clinton, Reid, Obama…all of these Bluedogs supported Leiberman over Lamont – and I’m sure they support this brillant move too!
Obama is trying to change the world’s perception of this country. This is not the right time to release those photos, or to expend precious political bully pulpit capital on the inevitable outcry that would follow. Obama’s approval rating would drop precipitously and his agenda to reform health care and other issues would suffer.
It’s just the far-left’s thirst for revenge pure and simple. I know that.
There will be no criminal trial. What don’t you understand? There is no appetite for that. It is time to move on. Those are the decisions that a President makes – and he will not succumb to pressure from extremist bloggers.
Wrong. There is no outcry in the Muslim world right now to release those photos. Only here. Right now villagers in Pakistan are rising up against the Taliban — Obama is engaging and listening.
Harry demonstrates once again that he can play a clarinet without a reed, and why he is unfit to lead. Obama, of course, has chosen to support this drill for his own reasons. His fetish to avoid embarrassing the opposition, I suppose, just because they commit embarrassing and illegal acts.
Kneepads Lieberman is beyond the pale. Why anyone gives him the time of day, let alone lets him set their agenda – why Obama, with all his capital and charisma, should choose to hide behind him – is a mystery of the absurd.
The FOIA is not etched in stone anymore than freedom of speech is. There are many classified items that never see the light of day. Obama has considered this and made his decision.
I have been on the inside of many progressive organizations believe me or not I don’t care. This is 100% about revenge and an irrational hatred for the Bush administration. Of this I am 1000% sure.
All of a sudden the extreme left cares about the rule of law? They despise the law! Give me a break. The hypocrisy is so blatantly obvious.
Wowser — when did you decide a dictatorship where El Presidente rules by fiat is a system worth defending? Haven’t you been spending your day running around pretending to be a “liberal and progressive Democrat”?
Last I checked, we have separation of powers in this country and further we have an independent legal system, hypothetically untainted by politics. Good to know all that is over. Now all President Obama — and all subsequent Presidents — has to do is make a call over to DoJ and dictate who is prosecuted and who is not, regardless of the law. You must have loved President Bush. I wonder why you didn’t support McCain…
Why don’t you take another big drink of the toilet water you’ve been drinking! That should make you feel better! Or better yet, maybe you should request an employment application from the DOJ and our upstanding and Honarable AG Eric “the court jester” Holder! Seems to me you are perfect fit!!
If you really think Barack Obama is a dictator who rules by fiat then there is no intelligent dialogue to be had with you on this.
If we have an independent judiciary untainted by politics as you say – then why do progressives care what a Supreme Court nominee thinks politically about abortion? Or the right to bear arms? Why do you want liberal justices on the court – as I do!
Stuff and nonsense. Really. Grow up.
Umm no, that’s not what I think, that is what you said. That the President decides who to prosecute and I quote from your comment at 48:
That is the very definition of tyranny. Why do you fear the rule of law? What did you do when you worked for BushCo that you are so terrified will come out?
(iggy)
It’s clear to everyone, except you maybe. The American people, Obama and Holder do not want to release the photos nor do they want a bloody show trial. They have very cogent reasons which they have stated for not doing so. There is other work to be done.
No one despised Bush-Cheney more than I. I am as progressive and liberal a guy as you will find on 95% of the issues. I just disagree with you on this one.
You cannot call good well meaning progressive Democrats like me Karl Rove and say they worked for the Bush administration when they disagree with you on a few issues. Well, you can, but it really makes you look soooo small and meaningless.
Ya think Obama has given the Republicans enough rope yet? No, no, don’t release those photos; nothing to see here.
So Lindsay Graham and Sancho Panzer are going to shut down the Senate because the photos are unimportant?
The longer the guilty think they are going scot free, the clumsier they become and the less necessary a truth commission.
My SWAG is that we will see indictments after the healthcare bill is passed and signed, not political timing just long enough for DOJ investigators to do their jobs.
Since the President doesn’t make the determination of who goes to trial (a US Attorney does or other prosecutor does), neither bloggers nor anyone else have a chance to exert pressure.
And I guarantee you that the investigations into the abuses of the Bush administration will not be telegraphing their actions. So we all just have to wait and see.
This is all beside the point of this diary, which is about Linday Graham’s (and Joe Me-Too) attempt to shut down the Senate. If it weren’t the photos, it would be something else.
And btw, South Carolina is a tobacco state.
OK then let’s wait and see. But prosecutors all over the country make decisions all the time not to bring charges for a multitude of reasons. They have already demonized Holder here for not bringing charges already.
What is the basis of your conjectures about the DOJ and their investigations?
Mostly about not having enough evidence to convince twelve reasonable people.
A lot of the time conventional wisdom does not equal evidence or legal argument.
Yeah, Holder was demonized before he was confirmed. It’s still wait and see.
Bullshit. You are a torture apologist which means you are neither good nor well meaning. You condone the brutal treatment of captives, people unable to fight back or flee. It is a disgusting position and one that no moral person of good conscience can condone.
You seem to be under the illusion that we have too few public servants in government to cope with the workload. Again, bullshit. We have a vast and multi-talented workforce in government capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. The DoJ’s core function is prosecution of federal crimes. Now all of a sudden you think they are incapable of doing their jobs?
President Obama’s job is a political one and he needs to get on with it. Attorney General Holder’s job is the enforcement of the law. Somewhere along the line over the last few years you let Rove and Bush convince you the DoJ is a political entity rather than a law enforcement entity. Those of us who truly believe in our democratic system of government are doing our best to get the DoJ back on track.
Your assertion that there is nothing wrong with the corrupt system that W instituted and that Obama should continue to use the DoJ as his own personal political tool undermines the bedrock of our democracy. You can call yourself whatever you like, but it doesn’t make it true.
There are a lot of DOJ professionals who want to clear out the crap from the Bush years and restore their reputation.
My conjecture is based on the way that career bureaucrats, well at least the better or them, work. And my conjecture is based on the fact that evidence to bring charges, and the strategy for multiple trials, is not a trivial exercise.
That’s all.
I am against torture as is Barack Obama – he ended it. I make no apologies for those that did so and never condoned it. I certainly don’t need the the approval of fringe extremists like you to validate what I, Barack Obama, Eric Holder and the overwhelming majority of Americans believe.
If Holder chooses to prosecute someone he will do so. If not he won’t. It is up to the discretion af AG’s everywhere as to whether they will bring charges or not. It’s certainly not up to angry, irrational, fringe extremists like you to make that decision.
I understand how powerless you feel, well, you are. So keep blabbing away on a blog and delude yourself into thinking you make a difference.
The bottom line is that it Obama and Holder’s decision. Period end of conversation.
dynamited that fish with that one.
We got us a lively little concern troll here, folks. Juno redux.
Oooo, “end of conversation”. Well now, that must be the end since you have decreed it.
You’re a hoot, but at least you have been paying enough attention to concede that prosecution is up to the Attorney General rather than the President, so that’s something. I guess I haven’t been completely wasting my time. Maybe next time you turn up, we can work on other aspects of our Constitution as well…
It is a real tragedy though, and a sign of how far we have fallen that a person who ardently defends the Constitution of the United States, the rule of law, and an open and transparent democratic system of government is described as an extremist fringe dweller in our society. What does that say about us as a country?
You are sanguine putting your faith in men. I am not. Equal justice under the law. We used to be taught that in school. What do they teach now? Will every house start sporting the picture of the President our wise and supreme leader? Where does the slippery path you are on lead? It behooves us to remember that neither the Greek nor Roman democracies lasted. Will we too, swoon before Caesar?
Have you ever heard of this thing called a Judge? In the American system of government, there are 3, supposedly independent branches. Judges are part of the judiciary, and make decisions based on the law enacted by the legislature and the Constitution.
Federal Judges – both in District Court and at the appellate level – ordered the release of the photos. Sorry they did not first take a poll, like on American Idol, about what milquetoast pseudo-liberals thought should be done.
Dragon I am not a troll. I am a Democrat that doesn’t agree with you on this issue? What about that don’t you understand. This a private club?
Obama disagrees.
The law is not black and white. Releasing those photos in my opinion will possibly result in American’s deaths. It is unconscionable for you not to care about that. Extremists like you love to showcase “your” interpretation of the Constitution when it seems to serve your agenda — yet you decry it when it doesn’t. Case in point. The Second Ammendment. Let me guess where you stand on that. Gee, that was hard.
whoa! clarify that – Obama disagrees about the existence of Judges? shee-it!
or, disagrees that the President needs to comply with orders from a Federal Judge?
now that may be, and you may agree with the President on that, but c’mon, spell it out for the people, you could say:
“After the President has uttered the words ‘national security’ or ‘protect the troops’, he no longer is obliged to comply with orders from the Judicial Branch.”
fine, you are here standing strong for this principle, and many have taken issue with it. carry on.
I have come to a strange conclusion about this move. It is primary aimed at stopping the tobacco bill. This stunt is the only way that Lindsay Graham (SC is a tobacco state) could get political cover.
Gullible’s travels provided the bipartisanship.
Obama is challenging the order from the judge he has every right to do so. He has decided it is not in the country’s interest to release the photos. We shall see what happens.
I knew it was too good to be true… That whole “end of conversation” temper tantrum. Alas, I had been kinda hoping…
So, where do I stand on the Second Amendment? You didn’t actually guess… I’ll wait…
And to reiterate, your human shield argument is appalling. You are rhetorically holding our soldiers (and other Americans abroad) hostage, with knife to their throats while screaming, “if you prosecute crimes against politicians, I’m gonna kill Americans”. Nice. Very nice.
If we release information (photos, records, whatnot) that show both DoD and CIA committed crimes and then we prosecute the perpetrators, then the rest of the world will say, “Gee, there is something to that whole rule of law thing. That’s pretty cool. Dictators kinda suck. Lets see if we can get us some law here.”
Meanwhile even as I type, Americans abroad, whether soldiers, embassy staff, business people, or tourists are already targets for extremists, who at the moment can truthfully call us imperial hypocrites. Seems to me, helping them make their argument is the last thing our government should be doing.
With the exception of what I think of Short Ride, Graham and Reid you don’t know what my position is on any issue, troll.
As redfish requests, wash your mouths out with soap, and wear the dunce-cap for disagreeing with President Obama and some ridiculous percentage of “Liberals” and “Progressives” and, of course, redfish. She is sooooo right!
redfish has been shopping this tired blather for a few days now-
and
and
and
and finally, the bullshit rises to the top – floats there where it belongs, the stinking beauty we knew it to be:
From her comment @ 51-
Seems she’s been around the block a few times with sites that find her transparently, um, disruptive.
And she is taking great offense at being called out… “Oh my, you are all so rude here! Your mommas would be shocked… SHOCKED, I say…”
She is just taking up valuable space, she’s doing a little probing into backgrounds, etc. But mostly taking up space.
To the fainting couches, pups.
She’s.Not.Worth.Your.Time.
No temper tantrum here. We have beat this dead horse enough, we can agree to disagree. I do find your arguments nonsensical though, I think you hate America and want to embarrass her some more, I think you don’t care one bit about putting our diplomats and soldiers in more danger than they already are, I think you are ignoring Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and countless others who are far more knowledgeable then you about what releasing those photos would mean. I don’t think you are a patriot — and I resent that naive extremist zealots like you jeopardize the gains Democrats have made recently.
Stick that in your peace pipe.
What’s the matter, can’t handle rational educated progressive libs who don’t embrace your extremists hate America agenda? Or is it the glass of kool-aid that I threw back in your face that’s disturbing you?
oh ho ho, thats a keeper allright, thats one for the files.
backing up a bit, I believe that you are indeed exemplary of how “6 out of 10 Liberals and 62% of all Democrats” think on this, and many other issues, and you have done yeomans work here propounding your views, suffering the slings and arrows and indignities in the process. Good show – most of your colleagues flee the field when their conventional wisdoms are questioned.
And you are also right in that most here agree with you on many things.
Most will continue to support the Democratic Party, no matter what (D) politicians do to them and the values they hold.
Determined 3rd Party advocates or Naderites get the same treatment as you at FDL – that should make you feel better, Redfish!
Gee your feeble pile on didn’t intimidate me. Scratching your collective heads? Perhaps you can try censorship and banning me from the site next.
It’s not about party it’s about issues. Generally speaking Democrats are much more liberal than Republicans, duh. We have two parties so I support Democrats. If you care about a woman’s right to choose, gay rights, immigration reform, labor unions, working people, health care, the environment, etc. as I do — you support Democrats. They are not perfect but they are the best alternative by far. I refuse to minimize the importance of an Obama presidency and Supreme Court nominations so I choose to be pragmatic.
Off to the gym. Toodles.
LOL… Just to add to your list…
“rational educated progressive libs” segues straight into “extremists hate America agenda”
SD is right, we got ourselves a squirming fussy little troll at the end of our line, probably swam over from the Rush’s infested bog… I have to give this one credit though, at least they can spell.
BTW, thanks for that ; )
No you are wrong I am not a troll. But if that makes you feel better go ahead say what you will. By the way, I despise Rush and every other extremist reactionary right-winger, with a passion. Ciao.
Then how does their rhetoric so readily flow from your fingertips?
By the way, how do you feel about the ACLU? Just curious, since LGBT rights seem to be at the top of your agenda. How do you reconcile their LGBT advocacy with their “extremist hate America agenda”?
This lame ass Treachery can only work as long as Harry Reid is Senate Majority leader we need a new Leader.
And so how did that work???
Redfish = attention suck
Ignore.
My language is, I trust, always impeccable (at least in print and when ladies are present). But I can hardly frown at forthright, colloquially phrased, righteous anger. Wrath in the face of evil is hardly a bad thing, even when expressed in intemperate language–to the Fathers of the Christian Church it was a virtue, iracundia. On the other hand, pleasant language that seeks to justify an abomination is truly obscene and deeply offensive–like the proverbial whited sepulchre that hides corruption.
So all I ask in this instance is consistency and sincerity. I trust that this 60% that allegedly shares your persuasion is uniformly against punishing crime in all instances? And in all neighborhoods, particularly your own? And when committed against any and all persons? That all legal process is just revenge?
I trust that someone who sodomized, tortured, and/or murdered, say, you, or a child on your block, or a child in your home should never, ever be investigated or charged, much less punished in any way? I trust that you are against in any way preventing such a person from acting again when the urge comes?
If so, I salute your consistency, if not your sense.
Perhaps, consistent with your principles, you will share your location, so that we may send any child molesters, rapists, torturers, murderers, shoplifters, litterers, loiterers, and other miscreants that may infest our own communities to you, in lieu of taking “hateful, blood thirsty revenge” on them in the penal system, at considerable expense to our taxpayers?
In return, I, for one, will gladly promise that I will not send any foul-mouthed feminists (where these young girls get it from these days, I can’t say–but personally, I blame the pastors in those big-box churches).
It’s not rhetoric it is just a different opinion. I could say the same thing about you, a litany of extremist talking points. Not productive though is it although I can appreciate occasionally when anger gets the best of one.
To answer your question, I think the ACLU is a fantastic progressive organization that does a terrific job reminding those in power that the average citizen matters as well as standing up for the Constitution and Justice. I agree with their stance on most issues — not all. I would point out they also defended the Nazi’s right to march in Skokie a town filled with Holocaust survivors. So — reasonable people can differ on the positions they take.
Mauimom — it’s clear you can’t win a debate with me on the merits can you?
There have been no charges filed, there has been no trial, there have been no convictions after Abu Graib. So it is intellectually dishonest of you to that the 60% of Democrats that are against releasing the photos is as you say “uniformly against punishing crime in all instances”. Who are you to say there was a crime committed? I happen to believe that there was but that is not the point is it.
To compare this globally critical situation with, again quoting you, “someone who sodomized, tortured, and/or murdered, say, you, or a child on your block, or a child in your home” is utterly absurd. A really poor analogy. Try again.
It’s obvious Obama fight harder to protect the republicans then he does for anything we want. Why just go after Lieberman and Reid over it?
Side note. As someone who has been around a while — it is utterly laughable to all of a sudden see many here, all of a sudden become law and order disciples. What a joke. What hypocrites.
quit fighting with redfish, he isn’t worth it. Many neocons claim to be liberals because they support gay marriage. Heck Dick Cheney did it just the other day.
LOL Right I am a neocon.
Are you better than me Dame? You an elitist that thinks their word on issues comes from God? Is that what you teach your children that when someone doesn’t agree with them – they should make up falsehoods about them? Judge them as not being worth anything.
This is what I mean when I say “faux progressives”. You are a fraud. You have no clue what it means to be a true progressive. Now go drink some more kool-aid before you melt.
Here you go. Time for an off topic question. Here is a breaking story. How do you “law and order” types feel about this. Right or wrong?
“In a good will gesture to militant groups, the Iraqi government has freed a man who had been held in connection with the killing of five U.S. soldiers, an Iraqi government spokesman said. Laith Al-Khazali was detained in 2007 along with his brother in connection with the killing of five U.S. soldiers in the central city of Karbala”.
I am loving our new concern troll but I’d like him to consider whether he’d want “revenge” if someone murdered his mother/girlfriend/sister. After all, that’s all it would be to try and punish the person responsible, right? This is all that needs be said about this particular, very weak argument.
Well, the Iraqis are “moving forward”, right? That’s a good thing by your lights, so why are you whining?
No I would not want revenge. But your attempt to compare an individual issue with one of global import is without merit.
Who is whining. Why don’t you answer the question. What do you think?
Lisa Derrick is upstairs!
Jon Voight: Obama is a “False Prophet”
You just said who you are, son. You’re not for freedom of speech and you’re not for the FOIA. You’re not a liberal or a progressive, and you don’t believe in transparency or honesty. That’s fine, but you won’t find many people here who think that torture is something you should move on from. 70% of Americans supported Bush at one point. Were they right?
If you have principles, stick to them. But your arguments indicate that if you have principles, they don’t include free speech or the rule of law or making sure torturers face justice.
You’re also a troll.
Fuck, stuck down here in EPUland. My ISP took a dump around 5 so I’ve missed all the fun. I swear this is Juno
reincarnatedregurgitated. Not anywhere as much fun as Juno, though. Too wimpy.Trolls, even the cave snakes won’t eat ‘em.
Ian you are a nobody. So what you think doesn’t matter much to me personally. But I back down to no one in defending my political beliefs . . . boy.
I am a true liberal and progressive, not a feeble minded fraud like you. I am also very much for freedom of speech and the FOIA. But there are no absolutes are they? You cannot scream fire in a movie theater, that restriction has been deemed not to be a violation of free speech rights.
In my opinion the same thing applies to the FOIA which is a law with nowhere near the status of freedom of speech. In my opinion you have no right to release photos which will only serve to put soldiers and diplomats lives in danger, to recruit terrorists and further inflame anti-American hatred.
Why do you hate America . . . boy?
Missed you SD, but in the grand scheme, not that much fun was had. For a troll, this one isn’t very imaginative. Where have all the good trolls gone?
Phred – calling someone a troll who does not agree with your extremist agenda does not hold water. You can call me what you want – the fact remains that there are millions of Democrats like me who WILL NOT ALLOW EXTREMISTS to derail Obama’s progressive agenda.
Call us trolls – who cares. You only embolden me to be more of an activist. You are every bit as reactionary in your dogma as Dick Cheney is in his. You are filled with hate.