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	<title>Comments on: Sharing the Wealth: the Basis for a Fair Society</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/</link>
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		<title>By: PaulinSF</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906837</link>
		<dc:creator>PaulinSF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 06:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906837</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You say that the private system of healthcare can never deliver affordable universal healthcare, and imply that the only alternative is a government run system, or one regulated like a public utility. I suggest you are overlooking the third possibility: non-profit health care providers. There are several examples currently doing a good job of it. Their successes should be studied as we try to invent the future of health care in this country.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You say that the private system of healthcare can never deliver affordable universal healthcare, and imply that the only alternative is a government run system, or one regulated like a public utility. I suggest you are overlooking the third possibility: non-profit health care providers. There are several examples currently doing a good job of it. Their successes should be studied as we try to invent the future of health care in this country.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906797</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 04:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;I threw out a couple definitions of productivity above.  I think there is much that is hidden in this term.  You see if Walmart hires fewer people to work in its stores, then its productivity goes up.  But this masks the fact that the service you get at Walmart or similar retailers is lousy.  Productivity can increase if you hire fewer workers even if you pay them more overtime.  And you also have to look at distortions caused by the financial sector where speculative gains could also translate into higher productivity, even if this was really only evidence of the degree of speculation going on.  Finally, if a construction worker built the same house pre-bubble for $200,000 and in the bubble for $400,000 was he/she really twice as productive?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What I am getting at here is that no number or term in economics means exactly what you think it does.  I find I often have to compare several numbers (and definitions) to get a feel for what is going on.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I threw out a couple definitions of productivity above.  I think there is much that is hidden in this term.  You see if Walmart hires fewer people to work in its stores, then its productivity goes up.  But this masks the fact that the service you get at Walmart or similar retailers is lousy.  Productivity can increase if you hire fewer workers even if you pay them more overtime.  And you also have to look at distortions caused by the financial sector where speculative gains could also translate into higher productivity, even if this was really only evidence of the degree of speculation going on.  Finally, if a construction worker built the same house pre-bubble for $200,000 and in the bubble for $400,000 was he/she really twice as productive?</p>
<p>What I am getting at here is that no number or term in economics means exactly what you think it does.  I find I often have to compare several numbers (and definitions) to get a feel for what is going on.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906795</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 04:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;MarkH,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Both Geithner’s PPIP and TALF are directed at securitized instruments.  In Congressional testimony Geithner has expressed support for even the most egregious form of security, the naked CDS.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Wages do indeed go flat a little before Reagan took office.  There was a Volcker induced recession at the time and this was expectable.  Under normal circumstances, at the recession’s end, wages should have picked up but Reagan’s Presidency with its hallmark “trickle down economics” began the great transfer of wealth out of the middle class to those who were already wealthy.  There were some other factors (anti-unionism, etc.) but this marks the construction of what has become known as the paper economy, the shift away from a worker based to investor based model, a model which so spectacularly melted down 8 1/2 months ago.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Under Clinton, fueled by Greenspan’s easy credit policies, some 23 million jobs were created in 8 years.  As classical economics would tell you, competition for labor will bid up the price for labor and hence wages.  Unfortunately, the Clinton boom ended in the dot com bust and soon after the disaster that was Bush took over the reins of power.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Both healthcare and banking had decades to get their acts together as private run concerns.  Given the financial meltdown and the failure to deliver affordable universal healthcare, private enterprise has blown it big time.  What most Americans and even businesses need banks for is very limited.  Much of it could be done by government or by sharply constrained private entities.  For healthcare though, I see no private system or privately insured system which can deliver affordable healthcare to all Americans in an equitable way.  The profit motive of Big Pharma, insurance companies, and HMOs is in fundamental conflict with the core mission of healthcare.  There is just no escaping that in a private system.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MarkH,</p>
<p>Both Geithner’s PPIP and TALF are directed at securitized instruments.  In Congressional testimony Geithner has expressed support for even the most egregious form of security, the naked CDS.  </p>
<p>Wages do indeed go flat a little before Reagan took office.  There was a Volcker induced recession at the time and this was expectable.  Under normal circumstances, at the recession’s end, wages should have picked up but Reagan’s Presidency with its hallmark “trickle down economics” began the great transfer of wealth out of the middle class to those who were already wealthy.  There were some other factors (anti-unionism, etc.) but this marks the construction of what has become known as the paper economy, the shift away from a worker based to investor based model, a model which so spectacularly melted down 8 1/2 months ago.  </p>
<p>Under Clinton, fueled by Greenspan’s easy credit policies, some 23 million jobs were created in 8 years.  As classical economics would tell you, competition for labor will bid up the price for labor and hence wages.  Unfortunately, the Clinton boom ended in the dot com bust and soon after the disaster that was Bush took over the reins of power.</p>
<p>Both healthcare and banking had decades to get their acts together as private run concerns.  Given the financial meltdown and the failure to deliver affordable universal healthcare, private enterprise has blown it big time.  What most Americans and even businesses need banks for is very limited.  Much of it could be done by government or by sharply constrained private entities.  For healthcare though, I see no private system or privately insured system which can deliver affordable healthcare to all Americans in an equitable way.  The profit motive of Big Pharma, insurance companies, and HMOs is in fundamental conflict with the core mission of healthcare.  There is just no escaping that in a private system.</p>
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		<title>By: PrahaPartizan</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906792</link>
		<dc:creator>PrahaPartizan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 04:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906792</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, my first question would be: “Who programmed those computers?”  For the manufacturing arena, which so often depends on some form of artificial intelligence for productivity improvements, who developed the algorithms used in the programming.  For the large, system wide implementations dealing with enterprise resources, customer relations, or even logistics control, who establishes the relationships involved in the implementation specific to each enterprise - a computer? No, capital wasn’t the only input involved in these productivity increases and shouldn’t be the only resource reaping the rewards.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, my first question would be: “Who programmed those computers?”  For the manufacturing arena, which so often depends on some form of artificial intelligence for productivity improvements, who developed the algorithms used in the programming.  For the large, system wide implementations dealing with enterprise resources, customer relations, or even logistics control, who establishes the relationships involved in the implementation specific to each enterprise &#8211; a computer? No, capital wasn’t the only input involved in these productivity increases and shouldn’t be the only resource reaping the rewards.</p>
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		<title>By: masaccio</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906778</link>
		<dc:creator>masaccio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 02:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906778</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Rawls is a tough read, indeed. I spent a fair amount of time on it several years ago, and it helped that my wife had studied it and helped me work through it. Later I got a book of criticisms, which was even harder. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Still, it is worth it. You have to think about specific examples. I usually explain it with the first draft of Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code, which was drafted by a group of academics who knew the common law, and lawyers representing a wide spectrum of businesses. All businesses are both buyers and sellers. If they tried to unbalance the sales provisions towards either buyer or seller, they would stand to lose as much as they would win. The drafters included academics who knew about contracts of adhesion and other consumer abuses, and put in provisions to deal with those as well. Everyone knew that as individuals they faced those problems, so it made sense to add minimal protections.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Of course, the same can be said about some of the rest of the UCC, but Article 9 isn’t one of them.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rawls is a tough read, indeed. I spent a fair amount of time on it several years ago, and it helped that my wife had studied it and helped me work through it. Later I got a book of criticisms, which was even harder. </p>
<p>Still, it is worth it. You have to think about specific examples. I usually explain it with the first draft of Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code, which was drafted by a group of academics who knew the common law, and lawyers representing a wide spectrum of businesses. All businesses are both buyers and sellers. If they tried to unbalance the sales provisions towards either buyer or seller, they would stand to lose as much as they would win. The drafters included academics who knew about contracts of adhesion and other consumer abuses, and put in provisions to deal with those as well. Everyone knew that as individuals they faced those problems, so it made sense to add minimal protections.</p>
<p>Of course, the same can be said about some of the rest of the UCC, but Article 9 isn’t one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: masaccio</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906774</link>
		<dc:creator>masaccio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 02:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;The point of the graph is not the minor changes in wage growth under Clinton. Even then, productivity rose faster than wages. That is my point. Clinton did not change any of the economic arrangements that the republicans were creating, including the evisceration of unions, deregulation of one industry after another, removing trade restrictions, controlling patents, and so on. He provided cover to the republicans for a number of those changes.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point of the graph is not the minor changes in wage growth under Clinton. Even then, productivity rose faster than wages. That is my point. Clinton did not change any of the economic arrangements that the republicans were creating, including the evisceration of unions, deregulation of one industry after another, removing trade restrictions, controlling patents, and so on. He provided cover to the republicans for a number of those changes.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906773</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 02:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906773</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Carter deregulated trucking, airlines and telecommunications (Ma Bell), but I don’t recall any financial industry changes. What was it?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;health care &amp; energy costs rose and then Reagan &amp; co busted unions and deregulated financial markets…we were off to the races.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carter deregulated trucking, airlines and telecommunications (Ma Bell), but I don’t recall any financial industry changes. What was it?</p>
<p>health care &amp; energy costs rose and then Reagan &amp; co busted unions and deregulated financial markets…we were off to the races.</p>
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		<title>By: masaccio</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906772</link>
		<dc:creator>masaccio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 02:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;A very lucid description of the foundation of Rawls’ ideas. You are right to note the lack of a formal justification for the ideas of the Chicago School. I’d love to see one.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There are intellectually sound criticisms of Rawls, but for me he is persuasive and explanatory. I don’t think we can create a complete philosophical system from thin air, but we can do better than the free market people who provide only an abstraction from the system as it evolved.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very lucid description of the foundation of Rawls’ ideas. You are right to note the lack of a formal justification for the ideas of the Chicago School. I’d love to see one.</p>
<p>There are intellectually sound criticisms of Rawls, but for me he is persuasive and explanatory. I don’t think we can create a complete philosophical system from thin air, but we can do better than the free market people who provide only an abstraction from the system as it evolved.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906771</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 02:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;same with productivity. With computers the Rich decided it should all accrue to them. They didn’t let any trickle down. Then, to add insult to injury, they raised health care costs, education costs and energy costs and we’re broken. Something got out of whack.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>same with productivity. With computers the Rich decided it should all accrue to them. They didn’t let any trickle down. Then, to add insult to injury, they raised health care costs, education costs and energy costs and we’re broken. Something got out of whack.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906768</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 02:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/25/sharing-the-wealth-the-basis-for-a-fair-society/#comment-1906768</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That’s a powerful vision to offer young people. I’ve seen it time and again. They believe and identify with the Rich and their desires. What they run into is Reality and the many ways they’d like to get rich quick, but discover are merely tricks that don’t work. The lottery is just an easy one to point to.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;People who have such dreams really really dread getting bogged down in ordinary jobs they know aren’t going to give them the American Dream. They know their jobs are crap. Look at the t.v. show Friends and how those characters relate to their work — it’s just something they have to do. Look at other ‘office’ humor and entertainment. It all portrays work as crap with crap bosses and no pay or promotions. That is the dead end you don’t want. Given that any kind of hopeful dream seems worth a shot.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The union movement gave people HOPE and OPPORTUNITY, but Republicans knew those people would vote Democratic, so they had to kill that animal.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Now it’s just the utter disaster of Republican management, er governance which shows people a Republican government is just like crap businesses led by crap managers. It’s a scam you can’t survive.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We have to really fix the economy or the last 30 years of Republican economics will just continue to destroy us.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That’s a powerful vision to offer young people. I’ve seen it time and again. They believe and identify with the Rich and their desires. What they run into is Reality and the many ways they’d like to get rich quick, but discover are merely tricks that don’t work. The lottery is just an easy one to point to.</p>
<p>People who have such dreams really really dread getting bogged down in ordinary jobs they know aren’t going to give them the American Dream. They know their jobs are crap. Look at the t.v. show Friends and how those characters relate to their work — it’s just something they have to do. Look at other ‘office’ humor and entertainment. It all portrays work as crap with crap bosses and no pay or promotions. That is the dead end you don’t want. Given that any kind of hopeful dream seems worth a shot.</p>
<p>The union movement gave people HOPE and OPPORTUNITY, but Republicans knew those people would vote Democratic, so they had to kill that animal.</p>
<p>Now it’s just the utter disaster of Republican management, er governance which shows people a Republican government is just like crap businesses led by crap managers. It’s a scam you can’t survive.</p>
<p>We have to really fix the economy or the last 30 years of Republican economics will just continue to destroy us.</p>
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