Yeah, to have Obama make such a speech in that location is almost as stomach turning as W’s Mission Accomplished.

We hang together, Peterr, or we shall surely …

thank you peterr. i’m with you.

chorus…………9/11 CHANGED EVERYTHING

agreed,…….if he only picked up on peters meme

As for me, I’m with Glenn, with Ian, and with the Founders. How about you?

I am SO much with all of you, and I cry in shame and frustration every day when I read the “news.”

What has become of this man, or was he always this way [and to this extreme]?

I was a young adult in the days of Richard Nixon, when “preventive detention” first reared its ugly head. I remember what it was like to take risks to protest one’s government, its involvement in an illegal war [Vietnam], its stripping of civil liberties.

I thought, with the defeat of Bush, that we had similarly survived a dark chapter in our history, and could now mend the years’ worth of attacks on our constitution. Apparently not, and, most cruelly, attacks by someone who at one time proclaimed himself a “constitutional scholar.”

Another thing that terrifies me is that, as with Nixon, many proclaim, “well, he’s got ’secret information’ that we mortals don’t possess. Things are much worse — in terms of threats to our country — than we can appreciate, so we should just ‘trust him’ [”secret plan to end the war,” anyone?] and all will be okay.”

This whole scenario terrifies me. Doesn’t ANYONE take American history any more? [I am an old goat, so perhaps that’s true.] I was taught in high school the threats to our freedoms quoted by Peterr, and the steps our forefathers took to establish our rights.

How can so many [including our fabulous media] be so lax about letting these rights be attacked, even by a pretty face and smooth speaking style?

Kind of sums up the way I’ve been feeling lately and not just about this particular speech.

I’m seeing way too many of the same attitudes being exhibited by this administration that we saw in the last one…waffling and flipflops on virtually every issue that we cared most about during the campaign… and most importantly for me… the same willingness to subordinate the will of the people to the same corporate elite and to create an entire new society based on feudalism and the elimination of the middle classes that characterize the Neocons.

Either the Democrats now in charge are in collusion with the crassest segments of the Republicans or they’re wimps without the testicular fortitude to stand up to those who make mockery of the ideals the documents referred to set forth. Either way, most of us lose.

he was always this way.

I am a Native American, and where do I start?

Okay, it’s not snark, but pretty damn close. Since I am a Vietnam War vet, long of tooth and grey of beard, permit me to be quite forthright.

Two weeks ago, I got into an argument with a Seminole Indan, as well as a military vet and who has no respect for the Constitution, and yet, he was part and parcel to the Black Hawk Down Travesty of the Clinton Administration. He advocates more Torture, if necessary. However, he has neglected the “why?”

In deference to such a wrong-headed view, I do adhere to upholding the Constitution, and in all it’s manifestations for Expanding Freedoms for our fellow citizens. Thus, I have to contain myself due to my obvious angst and anger that for eight years, the Right tossed the Constitution down the toilet/bathtub as per Grover Norquist’s stated goal.

Consequently, these criminals need to be prosecuted for torture and jailed where appropriate. And I harken back to the inception and argumentation to Bush’s War of Choice. Torture commenced prior to the invasion and occupation of Iraq and done in search of the incomprehensible, and still, there were no “Unassailable Facts” readily available. And this has not deterred the Right, and sadly, some of my fellow Democrats.

And if President Obama does not weigh into to this arena with both feet, he will be deemed by those of us in the Sonoran Desert deserving of his Legacy for Tragic Underreach. In constrast, LBJ is one of my political icons, and yet historians have deemed LBJ for his ‘tragic overreach’. Thus, President Obama, can move Progress forward, but in doing so, he must recognize and respond effectively to the issues that have driven America for these past eight years into the political gutter. And he has no choice but to wade into this cesspool with the understanding that soap and water are relatively inexpensive.

Jaango

I’m with you.

Totally with you peterr, and Glenn, Digby, Ian, the ACLU and many others.

Obama is infected with the War on Terror virus. The outlook for recovery is not good. It leads one to have cognitive distortions, such as believing you are standing up for Constitutional principles, while undermining them with policies out of the fourteenth century.

The media — and the massive national security/military/armaments industry that stands behind it, employing hundreds of thousands, if not millions — has, by promoting Cheney, various generals, the neo-cons, etc., propelled the discourse so far to the right, that a little reform of the Military Commissions, and a promise to be less cavalier about imprisoning people indefinitely, is seen by some as real change.

Torture is the canary in the coalmine. The real danger comes from the throttling of democratic norms by the militarists and the national security mafia. If we cannot undo what has occurred in the last eight years, then the fight will be doubly strong the next time the right ascends power… and they will, sooner or later… unless the left gets serious about prosecuting its agenda and realizes you can’t make everyone happy.

The National Archives Rotunda is an awe-inspiring place. Whoever chose it for this speech knew what they were doing.

The back-and-forth vetting of this speech must have been quite something, as the DNI, DOD, State, DOJ and others weighed in on the substance. I pity the speechwriter, though, to have such a wonderful opening undone by some of the policy prescriptions that followed.

Damn DFH socialists talking about “rights”. Don’t you commie pinkos understand that we have a war to fight?

… tell me, does it sound better now in the smooth oratory of Obama in the 21st century?

If the detainees can’t be tried because Bush regime crimes destroyed any legitimate cases against them, then neither can they be held as eternal prisoners-of-war in an undeclared and yet endless war against a shadow enemy.

Ever since 9/11 I’ve come to realize the source of my anxiety about life in the USA and it’s become obvious to me and many others, especially those inside the DC Beltway, the source of my angst is the Bill Of Rights.

That infernal document makes me afraid to go to the mall or to my son’s little league game, as the terrorists may have taken advantage of some so-called Right. Thank god Obama is doing what he can to squelch the effect of ill conceived piece of paper.
~snark~

I am with the constitution. I have tired tread marks, broken glass, burns, cuts, scars, internal injuries, permanent disability, terminal illness, mental breakdown, PTSD and the hemp paper I was written on is still there.
My government has forgotten it’s own oaths. I have not.

Perhaps we, who are ‘remnants’ of a once-decent educational ’system’ were taught things that, no longer, are ‘in fashion’, but are, now, considered ‘quaint’ and rendered (quite deliberately and cynically) ‘obsolete’. Therefore, we must insist that good citizenship is not about ‘cleverness’ or mastering the ways of deceit, and that education really does matter, that being able to distinguish false argument, from truth,for example, is not a luxury, but a fundamental necessity in a democracy, even in an ostensible democracy.

Democracy guarantees neither comfort nor the abolition of conscience, in fact it eschews both and insists upon courage, tolerance and understanding. And personal action.

Instead, we have delegated, by default, our conscience and our honor to self-serving moral midgets whose sole aim in life is power, unchecked, and fortune, unlimited …

None of what now confronts us, as a society, is the result of accident or fickle fate. None.

Thank you, Peterr, and all who comment above. Please count me in.

where does one apply to become a member of The Thought Police?

(though I’d probably have to execute a citizen’s arrest of myself from time to time).

President Johnson campaigned in the 1964 election with the promise not to escalate the war. “We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10,000 miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves,”

3 million Vietnamese dead
58,000 Americans Dead

so much for “progressives”.

with respect to jaango

RVN 68-69

Well written and tho I concur, there are others who frequent this forum who feel such is ‘bashing’ of Obama and that he has not had enough time to ‘make his mark’. And that this forum has become a place dominated by ‘Obama bashers’

It would be good for all if that perspective could be changed,so I would like to hear how such could be accomplished.

As towards the Seminole, I had a similar conversation with a younger (in his late 30’s) black man who works with kids ‘on the fringe/edge’. He felt that the torture visited upon others was OK because they weren’t U.S. citizens and attacked us.

It is the ‘us and them’ mentality that robs all of us of our common humanity; wish I had an answer to such a perspective but it might be a social meme given how long such a paradigm has gone on across so many cultures.

Isn’t it written someplace that all men are created equal – where is the ambiguity?

Many years ago I was in DC with a friend and we wandered into the National Archives. Nothing indicated what was on view and there was only one item. There was one guard standing way over in a corner and the place was totally silent. When we looked at the document on view it was the Declaration of Independence – the real thing. I was completely stunned. I felt as if I couldn’t breathe. Somehow that rather small piece of paper embodied everything I had believed my whole life and I couldn’t even speak.

How about with statements like this:

“Your comment is sheer bovine excrement”

sound familiar?

it appears he has gone down the road of many scholars–

studied it, but didn’t learn how to apply it, learned the practicum but not the uses of it…..broke it down to see all of its parts, can longer see the whole, only the parts of his focus. has no practical use for it sans as a quotable reference.

we’re screwed.

omg

rofl

i just snorted!!!

oh wait, that’s a pig!!!

rofl rofl

Ok, so you have this guy in custody who says that if you let him go he is going to kill and kill and kill again and again and again and again. So what do you do?

in legal custody?

i’m sure he was just joking.

Me likey!

I call it like I see it; I could-if I had saved such- point out your statements regards others ‘bashing’ Obama.

what I’m looking for is a means to bridge the two perspectives between those -like myself and others- who think Obama is not acting in a manner that addresses the big problems head on and those- like yourself- who think that criticism of Obama for not doing such amounts to inappropriate ‘piling on’.

How about at Git-mo. Mine was a serious question. I trust President Obama to do the right thing. Trust but verify, I am all for that, but we don’t need to knee-jerk react like we did with Bush because Bush didn’t care about doing the right thing. I believe Obama believes there are those who must be terribly dangerous at Gitmo, who admit being so and no qualms about it. What do you do with someone who promises to kill when they get out? Senator Whitehouse kind of insinuated this this morning. You have an obligation to protect. Even if you tell a doctor or lawyer you are going to kill they have a duty to inform the police and have you picked up, right?

you don’t know a thing about what I think. . .

and our disgusting corporate media,allows Darth out to opine his rightwing horse piss,from a rightwing institution,………….

http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5409

The only “loophole”, if you will, that I can see in Obama’s argument is that, as foreign nationals, they are not subject to the Constitution’s protections and that any treaties or conventions we are signatories to are ultimately secondary to the Constitution. I’m not saying I agree at all but this is the only thing I can think would be a justification.

me likey equine excrement………so good for the garden……….G

we got a load of pig compost a couple of years back and it was great!

Well written and tho I concur, there are others who frequent this forum who feel such is ‘bashing’ of Obama and that he has not had enough time to ‘make his mark’. And that this forum has become a place dominated by ‘Obama bashers’

It would be good for all if that perspective could be changed,so I would like to hear how such could be accomplished

ok, now i’m going to be serious….

i don’t think it’s fair to say “it would be good” – fair, in my book, would be something like: “i would like it.”

imo, none of us have enough info to truly “know” what is going on with obama. we’re all just trying to use the info, experience and judgment that we have the best we can. so long as there is some degree of intellectual honesty and fairness, i appreciate the arguments/discussions with people who disagree with me. who knows, maybe i’m the one who’s wrong and it would be good if i could change my perspective.

my 2 cents.

In most cases, the Constitution’s prohibitions on government behavior do not care whether the person at whom the government’s behavior is aimed is a US citizen, a legal resident, a tourist on a visa, or someone here illegally.

The requirement for a warrant, for instance, means that if the police want to search someone’s home — anyone! — they have to have a warrant to do so.

I also likey your perspective, ubetcha.

It is when folks stop talking and begin to attack each other as if the ‘other’ were a lesser ‘being’, a sub-human being, or a ‘devil’ that humanity shudders and destruction is seen as ‘progress’. That is when, if we are honest, we can see the reflection of the ‘other’ in our own souls.

Those who cannot, or will not, do so, have embraced their own pathology as ‘God’, and no good can come of it, either for ‘them’ or for ‘us’ …

how about gitmo?

first things first when addressing a complex question or a simple one–

i repeat–

in legal custody?

no, change that, the first question i ask myself is, consider the source. are they legitimately questioning something or just startin’ shit?

if it’s the latter, i take the advice of a winged-friend, and say to myself “it’s just (fn) blog”……and go on to the next thread.

We get a lot of loose talk here about the Constitution applying to the detainees in Gitmo. My question is, the entire Constitution or just parts? If parts, which parts? For instance, how would the Fourth Amendment be applied?
I think this is a bit more complicated than some are making it out to be.

i’m using old mushroom compost in my new alpine plants ’scree’ bed….

still rofl….

never equate excrement with goopers,…poo serves a goodly purpose…….g

Besides, sadly, as you know, today’s young ’shits’ become tomorrow’s old ‘farts’ …

Correct, only what you write. Do you practice intentional deception?

yea, I’m a concern troll

2 cents accepted ( I can use all the money I can get *G*) and yes, ‘I would like’ is a good suggestion. BTW:
http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5404

let me answer that one.

yep
and nope, all depends on what station your ears are tuned in on.

give it up while you still have your fingers.

this will not have a happy ending for you.

: )

Oh, so you fit this:
1.concern troll
In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with “concerns”. The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you’re an ally. Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.
“In the 2006 election, an aide to Congressman Charlie Bass (R-NH) was caught concern trolling the opposition on local blogs. While pretending to support Bass’s opponent, Paul Hodes, the aide argued that Hodes couldn’t win because Bass was an unbeatable candidate. Hodes won the election.”

2.concern troll
A person who posts on a blog thread, in the guise of “concern,” to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble, usually with an authority or power. They point out problems that don’t really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, control, the dialogue. It is viewed as insincere and condescending.
A concern troll on a progressive blog might write, “I don’t think it’s wise to say things like that because you might get in trouble with the government.” Or, “This controversy is making your side look disorganized.”
3.concern troll
A person who lurks, then posts, on a site or blog, expressing concern for policies, comments, attitudes of others on the site. It is viewed as insincere, manipulative, condescending.
A concern troll commented, “You should be careful about what you write because you might get in trouble with the government.” Another concern troll wrote, “This debate makes our side look disorganized.”
4.Concern Troll
A phrase used by the progressive netroots whenever someone questions the effectiveness of their activism, or notices that they are acting like fools, and discrediting their causes by incredibly silly gestures.
See: http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=7501
(Noting that facebook isn’t a good vehicle for protest makes one a “concern troll.)
5.Concern troll
A phrase of absolutely no meaning, used by bloggers to shut down debate on their sites.
“Ignore the concern trolls.”

please

yes you are!!!

and you bite!!!

rofllll

too funny.

oh my, time to get some more things done around here…..bbl.

thanks! btw, you’ve got mail.

A phrase of absolutely no meaning, used by bloggers to shut down debate on their sites.

I like that one

let me answer that one.

yep
and nope, all depends on what station your ears are tuned in on.

give it up while you still have your fingers.

this will not have a happy ending for you.

: )

ubetcha at 50

please, please have mercy on me, i can’t laugh anymore…..you’re way into the weeds here….please, pull up the reins, stop the stagecoach…

omg, i’m seriously laughing so hard my face and ribs hurt…rofl…

sometimes friends shouldn’t let friends blog…

Name them.

And yes, that is the point.

For each individual case an individual judgment in a court of law.

If the person is a continuing danger to others then the courts have the leeway to deal with that as well… and have used it in the past.

But Obama, who spouts the phrase ”rule of law” so glibly, fears the rulings of the courts.

If a detainee is freed and subsequently bombs a school then the political damage will be fatal… and thus Mr. ”rule of law” relies on arbitrary indefinite detention rather than actually trusting the rule of law.

It cannot stand.

My comment at #56 was a reply to bellesouth…reply didn’t seem to work.

and peterr–i did post a comment addressing your post…and i do think that is part of the problem.a person’s micro/macro perception from studying parts of something can inhibit them from applying what they learned as a whole.

As for me, I’m with Glenn, with Ian, and with the Founders. How about you?

Peterr,
As you excoriate Obama for denying Constitutional rights to the detainees in Gitmo, you and Ian extol the Founders. Aren’t these the folks who sanctioned slavery in our founding documents and thus deprived the most basic of rights to millions of human beings born and living in the United States?

deja vu all over again. i think we’ve had this conversation, or at least a variation of it, before:

http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/704

picky picky picky

Raven — still stirrin’ up shit, huh? Understandable, considering the problem child the courts found you to be at seventeen. Congrats on the 40th re-arrival back in the world. Peace, bro.

If a detainee is freed and subsequently bombs a school then the political damage will be fatal

And the children DEAD.

hey mon! Sep 3 will be that day! Yea, I’m not smart enough to keep up with these folks.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!

EVERYONE WITHIN the United States is protected by (not subject to)

the Constitution.

EVERYONE.

Your comment is another of those twists on bedrock American principles that have no doubt been caused by the ignorance/bias/tilt to the powerful of the media and the right-wing noise machine.

And, yes, I am SHOUTING. This point requires shouting.

Feather fluffing is a most interesting ritual.

Common among birds, fowl and certain dinosaurs, according to recent speculation …

It reaches its greatest kerfluffly heights,as a display mechanism, amongst a certain featherless biped, however, and is a great joy for all who behold it.

The display on exhibit today, is both rare and unique, and we are privileged, indeed, all of us, to have witnessed it.

Carry on. (Recalling what one vulture said to the other, “Patience, hell! Let’s go off something …”)

Apologies to you Peterr, for this, patently, absurd OT of mine.

DW

To suggest that one is an Obama-basher for utilizing a ‘critique’ of his mechanistics for self-governance is absurd.

Take, for example, the White House has yet to announce that it will refrain or reject ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ in the future, is a factually valid question and deserving of a ‘critique’. Thus, any measurement metric should be measured against the Geneva Conventions Against Torture. And I might add, I am happy to see that the military vets who blog here at the Lake, are not shy in expressing themselves.

Consquently, my Hat Tip to my Brothers and Sisters of Shared Experience.

Phan Rang,RVN 68-69,the Grim Reapers.

Jaango

Back atcha Bro. Flew in there one time on my way to Pleiku. Noisey damn airstrip in Aug 69!

Both Obama and Bush thought that speeches could substitute for good policy and effective action. Obama gives a better speech but this still doesn’t fix what needs to be fixed.

I pointed out some time ago that Obama was walking back every major policy that differed from Bush. This is just another example. Just because Obama is not quite as crazy or extreme as Dick Cheney or George Bush doesn’t turn him into a liberal or even a centrist. He is a conservative pursuing a conservative agenda. The proof is not in his speeches but in his actions.

oldgold @ 59:

now I’m confused – Obama should re-legalize slavery? Only in the Old Confederacy, or everywhere?

or, maybe the ”folks who sanctioned slavery in our founding documents” were born in the 18th century, so Peterr should have been born in the 18th century if he wants to cite the Constitution, Dec of Independence, etc.?

or are you saying the Constitution itself cracked the whip on the plantation, and therefore it is hypocritical for it to enumerate rights for anyone?

hmmmm, maybe you should write to Justice Scalia with your insights.

Oh, btw, check out jayt’s cmment late in the Whithouse visit thread – for belle south’s question about a person asserting he will commit a crime in the future.

Under the law and Constitution (including the Bill of Rights) of these United States, no one can be held for a crime that has not been committed.

So the answer to your question as to what to do with a person who claims he plans a crime, but there is no current crime for which he can be charged is — you “cut him loose,” in tv cop/da parlance.

Perhaps you want to live in the world of “Minority Report“, but I don’t.

hmmmm, maybe you should write to Justice Scalia with your insights.

LOL – love that line.

Agreed. The hypocrisy seems to have grown deeper and deeper and the needed shovel bigger and bigger.

And you would attempt to save them by permanently locking away any and every person who might harm them?

If so how do you address the many potential U.S. born terrorists who are on the loose and not at gitmo?

Hey, I’m with you! AFAIC, the constitution ought to apply to humans-not just Americans.

cheers TEJA . . . and it is allright to shout about such things. Many here did a lot of shouting and venting when it was a Republican administration trashing the Constitution.

We don’t quite make up a squad but we’re loud.

Mobile Riverine Force, Dong Tam, 67-70

Yes, I agree, you are confused.

I’m really not liking this indefinite detention thing. Perceived threats? Hell, I’m a perceived threat to the monied class. They consider my ideas and opinions threatening. They’ve got a problem, though: I am not Martin Neimoller.

they don’t watch ‘the first 48′ on a$e either.

Me and some of the fellas Dong Tam 69

hmmm, you sound like a threat, could be you will get to know the walls of a prison for doing nothing but sounding like one.

oldgold @ 78

so you could go, like, ”Dear Justice Scalia, some of the Founders of the American Republic who drafted the Constitution were slaveholders! Therefore, uh, none of the Bill of Rights applies to people President Obama declares to be enemy terrists!”

Now that’s a motley lookin’ crew. Wish I had all my old pix. House burgled in 75, cleaned me out, including my Petrie 35mm and all but one box of slides. Haven’t owned a camera since.

The ever present 55 gallon shit can. We couldn’t have been there without them. Made good bbq’s too.

Recognize the peace sign on the far right, but the dude second from the left — that’s some sort of gang thing, right?

That isn’t my point at all and you know it. Rather than engage in a civil discussion, you would rather engage in buffoonery.
Do you really think the Bill of Rights applies to to the detainees at Gitmo? You think they should have had the protection of the Fourth and Fifth Amendments upon their capture?
By the way, I have no time for that hack Scalia. His dissent in Boudemiere was almost heave worthy. On the other hand, Roberts wrote a pretty good dissent.

Oh man. Buddy up the street, grunt way up north, had a fire but he kept the negs separate from the photos and was able to salvage a good bit of them. I’m sure you’ve looked at the plethora of pcis on the Brownwater Navy site. ya’ll dudes had some great photo equipment!

That’s me! We were high as the cost of livin that day!

Lotta down time and nothing to do but take pix. I look at pix on various sites and I can smell the goddamn river and jungle.

Get that cover on straight, troop! This ain’t no freakin’ campus back home! And what’s that smell?

yup, and the diesel. I was in Jamaica in 72 and I kept getting edgy. I thought it was the jungle but it turned out it was the trucks!

cambodian red, top. . .and about three fingers of obiesotol

All right, I’ll retract the buffoonery for the moment. could you amplify your point, something about slaveholding and it’s pertinence to the rights afforded in the Constitution?

also, I believe the 4th Amendment is construed to apply to everyone in the US, but of course does not apply in places the US has invaded or occupied, or sent CIA rendition teams into.

You know that Dong Tam is a snake farm now?

You young punks gotta quite smokin’ that shit. Now, police up this area and I’ll be in the NCO club if you need me.

My how the world changes. Had a close encounter with a king cobra in the PI. Scared the livin’ shit outta me. That was 1 big fuckin’ snake.

no can do

remind me to tell you the story about the E-5 who turned us in for sparkin up on top of a bunker. . .

Following up on that response to oldgold:

Why do you think they were put in Guantanamo in the first place? Why are the wingers so adamant to keep them there?
Because, yes, if they are IN the territory of the United States they are PROTECTED by the Constitution and teh Bill of Rights.

No if, no ands, no maybes, no buts.

THAT is the reason for the prison at Guantanamo’s existence.

We were tokin’ up in the 3″ fire control director on the mother ship when the messenger of the watch came up and said they could smell it on the bridge and for us to diddy mau.

Well….we seemed to have hi-jacked at least half of this thread, so what the hell, give it up…….

Almost forgot –

this subject of preventive detention is treated much more thoroughly by the always eloquent and clear Glenn Greenwald, here:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/

Back to the cesspool soon’s I finish this bowl.

Namaste

That’s what they were sposed to do. We were off duty, who gave a fuck, all the juicers were trashed. The 1st shirt purposely didn’t read us our rights so they didn’t do any thing. The buck sgt got kind nervous when he heard that certain “click”. I’m sure he learned a valuable lesson, dumb ass.

Yea, it’s memorial day weekend! Got to drive out to our annual Nam Vets Campout. People here think I’m conservative! Come on out to Madison County Georgia for LZ Friendly! They think I’m fuckin Fidel!

Yeah, by late 68 the NCO’s and JO’s were kinda nervous alla time.

Colour me gone.

You ain’t?

tejanarusa:

I’m a big fan of Glenn Greenwald, though he is now widely ignored on FDL because of his writings on Obama’s broken promises and continuation of Bush’s policies.

I don’t have the link, but recent supreme court rulings have held that people in cages at Guantanamo, or anywhere else the USGov ships them, are entitled to basic rights.

Nah, just a washed up old hippy who can’t count coup with the “new lefties of the lake” hang in there bro!

you really have no idea what you are talking about do you>?

Well, it’d be a bit of a haul from MI. I’m with you in spirit but only vicariously and ‘unbloodied’, if you will. Drafted ‘67 but never left the states.

You guys missed the best part…Tanduay Rum. Ya’ go blind in one eye and can still jump out of the “helio-copter” nekkid. But then, the story goes that one Riveriner did it successfully. Sadly, no moviescripter ever put it in a war movie and made the Riveriners famously ferocious for walking on water.

Jaango

Ian last night and Peterr today seemed to extol the Founders to inform their attack on Obama for denying foreign detainees in Gitmo rights guaranteed under the Constitution. That struck me as misplaced homage given the Founders sanctioned slavery that resulted in denying millions human beings born and residing in this country the most elemental of rights for generations.

Now, as to whether all of the protections afforded by the Constitution should apply to foreign detainees, I remain to be persuaded. At this point, I agree with the Supreme Court’s decision in Broudemire that they should have the right to petition a federal domestic court for a writ of habeas corpus. In addition, without any question, they should be entitled to meaningful procedural and substantive due process. I remain open as to how that should be accomplished, but am skeptical that the existing criminal jury system in our federal domestic courts is the way to go.

You know it don;t matter. All the luck of the draw. Or, as Dylan said,

People tell me it’s a sin
To know and feel too much within.
I still believe she was my twin, but I lost the ring.
She was born in spring, but I was born too late
Blame it on a simple twist of fate.

Sounds like that “Overproof” in Jamaica!

oldgold @ 113 – I still don’t think point 1 holds water.

point 2, well stated, fairly widely held, I would not take issue with this using the tone I had before.

Raven @ 110 my comments were in the context of some back-n-forth with Oldgold & tejanarusa, whatever I said wasn’t about what you guys were discussing.

Fair enough.

I know but they LOVES Greenwald around here, he is cited in the original post.

As general info, Steve Benen over at WashingtonMonthly.com has a post up about a radio personality in Chicago and whom subjected himself to waterboarding. He lasted a half dozen seconds. He’s now a believer in that waterboarding is torture. Ahh, that personal experience is one hell of a teacher.

Jaango

Greenwald bangs the drum on vital sh*t everyday that is then ignored by frontpagers on FDL when Karl Rove has farted out some stupid talking point, or some other (R) stooge has made some ludicrous utterance that they (FDL) feel needs pushback.

peterr’s post today is like a 20 to 1 exception to this pattern, and good for him.

ok, chieu hoi

That certain ‘click’.

Some sounds do ‘concentrate’ one’s attention …

;~D

What, the Lake is supposed to be a referral service for Glenn? We know where he is and don’t hafta be reminded every hour. Nor do we hafta comment on everything he writes. Ain’t no water walkers out there.

A sound one never ever forgets.

!

Check this iPhone APP

masaccio is upstairs!
Pretending to Protect Citizens from Banks

Just what the morons need.

If the detainees can’t be tried because Bush regime crimes destroyed any legitimate cases against them, then neither can they be held as eternal prisoners-of-war in an undeclared and yet endless war against a shadow enemy.

Thank you for highlighting this whole “we’ve got some folks we can’t try” canard.

Expound on this a bit, won’t you Mr. President? Exactly WHY can’t we try them? And so, why exactly, can’t we do with these guys what our constitution tells us is the remedy for Bad Prosecutor Behavior: let ‘em go?

Now they don’t have to be let go at a quilting bee in Kansas, or a barn dance in PA. You could, for example, put ‘em on a boat to somewhere in the Persian Gulf. And why, pray tell, is “letting them go” so damn bad?

Obama’s whole construction on this — his “reasoning,” if you can call it that –is so full of holes, questionable assumptions, and false logic.

Talk about buyer’s remorse!!