Chicago radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller decided he’d get himself waterboarded to prove the technique wasn’t torture. It didn’t turn out that way. "Mancow," in fact, lasted just six or seven seconds before crying foul.
… "It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that’s no joke," Mancow told listeners. [...]
… "If I knew it was gonna be this bad, I would not have done it," he said.
Mancow joins Christopher Hitchens and at least two other journalists in learning what Steve Benen points out should be obvious to anyone ("If this wasn’t torture, we wouldn’t have done it. The whole point is to do something so horrific that the detainee would feel compelled to give up information."). But even if this is the least efficient way in the world to teach people morals, maybe in these times we have to settle for what we can get.
Matt Yglesias nominates Michael Goldfarb of the Weekly Standard to be next in line for personal education, but I think most of the rest of us would agree the most worthy "volunteer" is Sean Hannity of Faux News.
However, I’ll hasten to add that I understand those who argue that these grotesque experiments should stop. First of all, waterboarding is wrong. It’s torture, and that’s nothing to joke about. Even worse, the more people think of it as something that’s "cool" to try, the greater the odds that some teenager somewhere will do it carelessly and die.
Even so, there’s a point to calling the bluff of the posturing phonies who advocate torture publicly. As anyone familiar with framing understands, the purpose of their argument is to shore up the right-wing pose of being morally self-assured tough guys who are willing to do what it takes to defend America.
The truth, which isn’t brought up nearly often enough in the cable back-and-forth, is exactly the opposite: At a time when America was tested, these cowards folded, throwing in the hand on the precise values they should have been protecting.
So I’m not above rude tactics in pointing out their weakness, their irresponsibility, and their hypocrisy. If Sean Hannity and others won’t back up their talk about waterboarding, I’m fine with humiliating them using the same derisive language they’ve been aiming at the left for years.
They’re cowards, and moral failures. And they need to be told that to their faces.
Related posts:
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search
you know what needs to be done for these morons that volunteer for this water torture swopa?
they need to tell the “volunteer” there is no opting out of the “test” until they admit that they were responsible for the attack on 9/11 and that cheney was the master mind
see how fast everyone changes their tune when someone like this moron yells it out at the top of his lungs
and oh
teh zedunofitzeroo
I watched the video several minutes ago. I know nothing about Mancow but he was honest after it was over. Hannity should take Keith’s bet of a $1,000 for very second. Charities can use his money.
I will give Mancow credit for an honest response to his waterboarding experience. However, it is time, in fact, way past the time, for debating whether or not waterboarding is torture. It is.
Oh, that’s so harsh. Why, these pampered, coddled darlings of privilege shouldn’t have to endure such brutal reality, Swopa.
Who knows what psychic damage could occur from such an infusion into their beautiful minds?
;>)
You are being empathetic. Repubs hate that.
Good idea, perris.
But, I think the demos should stop. I cannot bring myself to advocate waterbording for anyone.
I think it is peculiar that while waterboarding is supposed to be the worst torture that the U.S. committed against anyone, it is the only one we can even think of demonstrating.
Can you imagine the spectacle of putting some in a stress position, cramming them into a small box, bombarding them with deafening noise, or slamming their head against a wal or a thick piece of plastic. I wonder whether the film could even be shown on TV or the internet. I wonder wether anyone would allow their employees to do it or a professional demonstrator could do it without there liability insurance being cancelled.
Yet, all the fuss is about waterbording.
Assuming our species survives in a civilized state, history will look back at this period as one of sheer madness, or truly depraved corruption and decay when cynical operators used fear to drive people into a shocked and moronic state.
The vile hypocrite Lindsey Graham said, in an official Senate hearing, that torture has worked for 500 years, that is why we still do it. So, his argument is that we should be guided by witch trials in 1500?
Of course Graham was wrong, torture is thousands of years old. I wish Graham would have said 2,500 years, then we would have been reminded that the ancient Greeks and Romans routinely tortured criminal suspects and slaves. As Jesse Ventura recently said, if it works and it is not really torture, why not use it now for criminal investigations in the U.S.
Perhaps we should televise the witch trials that have erupted recently in Africa. From Graham’s statement, I think he would deem such shows an opportunity for very enlightening and beneficial public education.
I nominate Rupert Murdoch and Geoffrey Immelt for the next volunteers for this sort of research.
so hold it.. torture does work then???? converts wingnuts into human rights defenders in an average of 6 seconds.
I know. It’s right up there with isolating their nuances.
;>)
Right, so this is progress. We can now agree that WB is indeed torture.
so did it save lives? no.
did it “work”? Did it yield “results” we can be “proud of”? depends on your objective.
if the objective is accurate intelligence (defined by the reality based community) then the answer is no. if the objective is to manufacture evidence to justify war, then maybe it works.
Torture is wrong. There is no situation that justifies sadistic treatment of prisoners.
Agreed 100%. They should make a laundry list of things that they have to be coerced to say.
I’m all for Hannity putting, well his mouth where his stupid voice usually resides. He should constantly be asked when he will take his turn as promised. He’s chicken. Better believe it.
When some group of dare devil teenagers get the dumb idea to get together and actually do it, and someone dies, perhaps Cheney and his ilk will come to their senses and decide that waterboarding really is torture and can cause death.
Maybe then, waterboarding will become “unfashionable”, even among conservatives.
~~~ModNote: Scenarios where someone is violently violated, no matter how odious they may be, are prohibited.~~~
Awesome picture. (*files away for future use*)
Sorta OT – the War Resisters League’s quarterly mag WIN just arrived and “Beyond Afghanistan: Choosing Nonviolence” leads it off. The statement was originally released 1 April.
Hannity’s made of stiffer stuff than that, I’m sure.
Such a bold fresh piece of patriotism cannot be made to crack…Save by a method so vile, so heinous and chock full of delicious villainy that the very fundamental pillars of capitalism would shake and crumble should it be employed.
Why, I can’t even bring myself to utter its unholy name.
;>)
Could they be any loonier, narcissistic, disordered in their thinking? Laura Ing does not have a thought that is a straight, factual, declaratory sentence. That’s because she only knows mockery and sarcasm and ridicule, all introduced by screaming….and she also likes name calling.
you mean being forced to watch while his ratings plummet?
Maybe we could put together a mobile water boarding (aka water torture) kit, with boiler plate hold harmless and indemnification clauses, for Jessy Venture to haul from talking head to talking head. I’d sure like to see the reaction of these dolts when confronted with a torture insta-kit.
Hannity will never do it. He let his alligator mouth overload his hummingbird ass. Again.
Now, that’s just sadism, man!
;>)
RevBev, I have entered the stage of opinion that the disorder has become the putative norm for them. Much like the zealot who draws their strength from a superimposition of belief over reality, rather than drawing spiritual strength from belief to endure and work toward changing reality.
The hybrid of right-wing evangelicals and neoconservative thought has at last born the bitter fruit once prophesied.
Well said. It’s not quite like playing with a loaded gun and an empty head, but it’s in that ballpark. If it’s cool to try, it’s cool to do.
This sort of exercise ought to be covered by the MSM as confirmation that waterboarding is extreme and degrading, even under controlled circumstances and when administered in the course of high-level military training by restrained experts not seeking specific information. Too much of this experimentation and it becomes like watching “24″.
When administered for real, by those without restraint and under orders to “take the gloves off” in order to find specific information by any means necessary, it’s swimming with sharks without the cage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..annel_page
edit–this was supposed to be in response to your 4 which siad in part–
Oh, that’s so harsh. Why, these pampered, coddled darlings of privilege shouldn’t have to endure such brutal reality, Swopa.
Who knows what psychic damage could occur from such an infusion into their beautiful minds?
;>)
laws of physics, darkblack, even supernovas burn out..
or
call it the peter principle, whichever you prefer…lol
You deleted my comment about how a teaspoon of water in the lungs can kill a person? And how Sean Hannity needs to be waterboarded in the same fashion as the GITMO prisoners were? Wow. Lighten up a little please.
the navy seals dropped the waterboard segment from their SERE training .. because it was bad for morale … everyone breaks .. every single swingin’ dick … breaks .. it’s not good to have your “supermen” realize their feets is indeed made of clay .. ya knows ..
i went through it in the mid-60’s as a naval flight officer [no no ..a marine flyboy in big cargo whirly-birds .. not fast movers..] it was a part of the old escape-evasion-survival school and it’s a fundamental thing .. it’s impossible to resist for any length of time ..
somewhere deep within our psyches rests the primorddial fear of drowning ..and slithering reptiles .. and they aren’t negotiable ..
anyone who claims differently is lying ..
Actually, I suspect waterboarding became the poster child because it isn’t the worst, at least not superficially. It can be falsely characterized as just a dunk in the water, whereas for bashing someone into a wall, chaining them to the ceiling, or stuffing them in a box, it’s hard to pretend they’re anything less than torture.
So the evil technique is to focus on the one that you can say isn’t so bad, and try to make that the bright shiny object, so that there is never an argument about everything else that went on.
Jolly Greens?
Very good point, Redshift.
yeah, i was thinking, if they keep volunteering like this-waterboarding the defenders of the defenders of torture/waterboarding works for me. all members of the same army.
I have to presume you posted a lot more graphic scenario in the deleted post.
We’ve got perris’ zed post advocating waterboarding until the volunteer gives a false confession. That’s much the same as “waterboard Hannity in the same fashion as GITMO prisoners” (although I think waterboarding was used only in Thailand and Poland, not at GITMO).
Hey, Swopa, great post.
Put me in the “it’s torture! let’s not normalize it by doing it during morning drivetime” category.
On the other hand, derision and mockery for the chickenshit yellowbellied cowards who advocate torture as a way to keep Americans safe is fine with me. Let them explain to Americans who are tortured on the battlefield, or off, why our example allows terror free reign.
Do we want Americans to emulate Danny Pearl’s beheaders and, if so — why?
the old ‘how much blood’ and using ‘foreign objects’ rule.
dispassionate non-contact. doesn’t count as torture./s
“OK, sir,” sez the guard, “you go have a nice nap and rest, ‘n’ then we’ll wake you up when it’s time for the next go-round. Only 182 more sessions to go.”
Anybody starting to feel the first stirrings of admiration for a man who could withstand to any extent at all the number of waterboardings that those captives did?
compassion, but not admiration.
Waterboarding is the font & kerning dispute of the torture argument, then?
Yes, thanks, that was exactly my point.
I forgot the freezing water. I doubt a video clip could stay up in public of someone being hosed down or immersed to the point of hypothermia. Just the sight of someone in that state would be revolting, and advanced hypothermia -blue, puffy, irrational and confused, no moter skills, violent shaking followed by complete stillness -would cause an uproar. No doctor would supervise, since the danger of cardiac arrest would be to great. No one would accept the potential liability.
Which brings to mind, I wonder how many of those 40 to 100 US captive deaths we hear about were due to hypothermia? Long before your thermal regulatory system goes irreversibly out of kilter, you become very susceptable to cardiac arrest.
Anyway, the point is that only one of these methods can even conceivably be demonstrated, and that one is supposedly the worst. The whole debate is a farce, and when we come to our sense, many politicians and many of the very serious and sensible TV talking heads will be irreparably disgraced.
Buckle Up! EW has Breaking News, upstairs!
Breaking! Judge Walker Gets Ready to Penalize the Government in al-Haramain
C’mon, Hannity. Afraid of a little dunking?
from a show from june 28,2006–
in the summer of 2004, at the request of w. winkelberger, asst sofd human affairs, the army surgeon general did an in-depth inquiry to all 1,100 medical personnel about witnessing, participating in and reporting torture…the report was never released and can’t find a mention of it anywhere.
winkelberger said, no, not any problem here.
http://wamu.org/programs/dr/06/06/28.php
also said there are 180 medical facilities where detainees were. that number is way higher than any other number disclosed.
“Mancow’s” Waterboarding wasn’t even to the same standards, if you want to call it that, of what they did to us in SERE. The towel, not a t-shirt, a thick towel, was soaking wet, and placed over the whole face… no “mouth exception”, the subject was also more in a “Trendelenburg position” and not as flat as Mancow was, which I think had the effect of being more disorienting that what Mancow was, and he seemed pretty disoriented.
Quien es mas macho now, asshole? I can’t believe this shit. Well, at least he admitted it’s torture. Now what does he think of having that done with no regard 183 times in a month, essentially six times a day?
Well, it may have been to the author, but the point I was trying to make is in the video above, it’s waterboarding knowing you can give up at any time, which is the exact opposite of what REALLY happens when a person is kidnapped and then taken to a secret location to be waterboarded. Those around the person aren’t nice to the person from the get go. Hannity, in all his masochism should be taken from his chair while on the air to get the full effect of what torture really is. It’s not fun, it doesn’t cause pain like a broken leg would, but it is torture because it’s near drowning while your body is not allowed to move to save yourself.
No question waterboarding is torture. These volunteers have some control over the situation and they say it is, detainees don’t have any control.
I have no idea what was in the deleted post, I was offering deference to the lurking moderator. I can imagine a somewhat sadistic post detailing pulling Hannity off set would cause some alarm and the post to be deleted.
I think others are on to something that waterboarding is minor compared to other torture techniques. We don’t have any apologists suggesting they be walled, or exposed to ice water for extended periods. Induced hypothermia would shock most people’s conscience. Makes my hair stand on end just to write the phrase.
SD ..phrogs [46’s] and 53’s … mostly phrogs ..
My favorite part was the end, when he says he “never would have done it.” Would have still excused and cheered it for years, and advocated it for others, natch, but now he realizes, albeit belatedly, that it’s not for him.
Is their an instrument small enough to measure righty empathy, let alone genitalia?
Sheesh.
I think Hannity will be soon producing a Doctor’s excuse.
Great post, Swopa. I piggybacked onto your post at my blog.
Rush doesn’t think waterboarding is torture. Perhaps he’d like to show us how tough he really is.
Just the fact that the men running the WB session have to wear hoods makes me very uneasy. We’re so quickly adopting the tactics of a police state. If video tapes of torture sessions hurt your case (Dick), just destroy the tapes. The rule of law is quaint.