They gain support for endless detentions without trials, and continue to normalize the concept for masses.

Keepin’ us safe, don’t you know.

for the masses.

And Zed.

The Devil, AKA Dick Cheney, and his mob probably whispered in her ear.

And FEAR is GOOD!

PW- thanks – I turned to FDL precisely hoping for a post on this. I caught Bumiller on Msnbc talking about the story with absolutely NO skepticism as to the numbers or the definition of “terrorism.”, no recognition of the fact that there’ve been multiple leaks of “stats” that prove to be bogus.
It really ticked me off.

I’ll give one point credit to her – she did say that the term “returned to terrorism” wasn’t really valid because many had likely not done any terrorist acts before they were captured.

I was interested to see in the comments on the NYT website for her article, most people expressed extreme skepticism, or if they accepted the numbers, pointed out that most people might become angry terrorists if wrongly arrested and kept for years without charges.
Do you happen to have a link on some of the debunkings of previous leaks on the subject?
note: went to get the link to above-mentioned comments – very slow to load. Hope that means lots of people pointing out the large flaws in the article.

Sell newspaperfs. Remember the Maine! That is the pure aned simiple, get down and do the dirty truth of it. It is what drives Limbaugh and the cable ‘news’ networks. The point is to make money. These institutions are viral: they colonize our healthy institutions and use them to destroy our nation.

Entertainment sells. The MSM likes to set up a ‘dramatic situation’, because dramatic narrative is what people respond to emotionally, and if they respond, you can sell. The Rethugs figured this out long before the Dems, partly because they come out of the private sector and know how important marketing is. They exploited the virus to feather their nests, and pursue whatever policy obsession they had. I don’t know what the cure for this disease is, but forewarned is at least forearmed.

The Pentagon considers former detainees giving interviews critical of the United States as “terrorism or militant activity.” According to a report by Seton Hall Law School’s Mark Denbeaux, the “Tipton Three” who participated in the documentary The Road to Guantánamo and one of five Uighurs released to Albania wrote a New York Times op-ed urging “American lawmakers to protect habeas corpus.” The Pentagon counts all as anti-American activity under the rubric, “returned to the fight.”

Today’s NYT report that one in seven (14%) detainees released from Guantanamo have returned to “terrorism or militant activity” is higher than past estimates. The U.S. Department of Justice estimates recidivism among the overall U.S. prison population at 67.5% (a fifteen-year study of prisoners rearrested within 3 years). The figure is about 60% for violent offenders, over four times higher than the Pentagon’s estimate for detainees released from Guantanamo.

Based on raw numbers, then, prisoners arrested, tried and convicted under the U.S. system of justice are four times as likely to be repeat (career) criminals than people summarily (and indefinitely) jailed at Guantanamo. One could argue that the U.S. justice system does a far better job of identifying and adjudicating hardcore bad guys than the U.S. military.

Remind me, why is using the courts such a bad idea?

Bumiller: govt stenographer.

I don’t get this 1-in-7 thing. Anyone can make up a statistic. We should try some of our own. Let’s try, it could be fun.

“1-in-7 humans are malnourishd.” (true)
“1-in-7 US construction workers are illegals.” (Lou Dobbs, so probably untrue)
“1-in-7 American teens are vitamin D deficient.” (true)
“1-in-7 American males have the male pattern baldness gene.” (tabloids)
“1-in-7 Congressional Republicans show signs of having at least some human genes.”

Oops – sorry, PW– when I asked about a link, I hadn’t watched the video yet.

Oh, and I read “Matthew Alexander’s” book – it’s a quick read, and rather appalling, even to someone with my dispositions.
Every supporter of torture should be forced to read it – or maybe to listen to it being read to them (no skipping passages that don’t support your prejudices).

1 in 7 “returns” to terrorism, hmmm? That is just over 14%.

According to this information from DoJ, in the US from 1983 – 1994, over 2/3s of released prisoners were re-arrested within 3 years.

I would wager that statistic has not improved much over the years.

So, after taking folks away without notice and with possible torture of some of the “terrorists”, there is only 14% recidivism versus over 66% of prisoners in the US penal system.

I’d say, 14% is a pretty good figure.

Dakine, I think a better statistic is how many non-imprisoned civilians in the Islamic world choose to embrace militancy for every report of torture or other abuse by Americans. I would wager that this number is a multiple, not a fraction.

As a retired correctional officer I take issue with morons who don’t think the government can control who ever, where ever and for however long if it acts in an illegal way. Kind of like the illegal way we have been, and still it seems, continuing to act.

I don’t advocate that is what we do. It’s just that it is foolish to claim that just having these people on American soil puts us in danger. It would be the illegal way that we treat these people that put us in danger. Danger from terrorist who are enraged by our actions and the danger of having a double standard of laws in a nation of laws.

I think Obama said today he plans on burying the detainees in supermaxes across the land…

Because fear is the only thing Republican’s can counter Obama on; ALL of their policies -past and present- are without substance and reflect ignorance of the issues.

How to muffle, and eventually dismantle the right wing Wurlitzer?!

It is startling to me that CNN and MSNBC would air Cheney’s AEI speech, or that tripe like Bumiller put out today is given anything more than a footnote. Could the Obama DOJ start investigating the media conglomerates for anti-competitive behavior, revive the Fairness Doctrine, and thereby tune out the Bush residue efforts to catapult the propaganda?!

Glad to hear your retired-I take it that means you survived what I imagine is a pretty tough career. Thanks, someone’s gotta do it.

I suspect that if/when Gitmo’s closed, the prisoners are “absorbed” into the U.S. penal system (or a special terrarist prison is built-watch the congresscritters line up for that piece o’ pork), and quietly while away the years lifting weights, this whole issue will disappear pretty damn quickly. Gitmo’s a recruiting tool, a supermax prison in Nevada (suck on that, Harrry), not so much.

Should this pathetic example of “situation ethics,” prevail in these matters as our history suggests… we as a nation have severed our own heads! So much for the ethnic cleansing of America’s native Indians. So much for the Constitution! Crush Kill and Destroy for profit and expediency.. to that profit, like fools gold……….

weren’t German POWs held for the duration of WW2 on Amrican soil?

They need to find out who the “sources” are and reassign them to a remote listening post in AFCOM.

The detainees should all be moved to the Bush Brush Ranch.

I’m curious about the history of how we the US have handled POWs from past wars, where detained, for how long, under what rules, etc.

What do we plan to do with future POWS in the GWOT?

“Could the Obama DOJ start investigating …”

No.

That would contravene the Sunstein Doctrine which supersedes the Fairness Doctrine which is no longer necessary nor desirable, because, hold onto your seat, Styve, ‘that would not be fair’.

There, clear as a bell, is the ‘transparency’ on this ‘issue’ and any others that involve ‘policy … disputes’.

This is Cass’es ‘nova’, see how bright it is, how very bright.

We are blessed to have seen the light.

(Sorry for tirade, disgust massive, hopes, little … change, very little, in fact, no evidence of change, much at all … amen)

;~D

o/t shuster coming up with a takedown of Cheney’s speech to “help you” form an opinion on it. or something. msnbc.

Shouldn’t information about the 240 detainees in question be made available to the proper authorities, where it could be determined how to convey to the American public the nature of the “crimes” each is being held for, the length of detention, etc.? Are women and children still being held? I mean, let’s show how ludicrous the “war on terror” really was/is!!

It was a Bush Wet Dream, and the sooner we know the who’s, hows, and whys of the illegal detention regime, the sooner America will awaken.

OK, as I predicted earlier today, two “analysts” are arguing over what points Obama made and how he made them and if they were credible and/or partisan. :(

Marcy Wheeler has at least one post on this topic, too, about whether the numbers included in the recidivism rate includes those in contact or working with suspected or alleged criminals because they’ve been recruited by the USG to do so.

As you point out, the 1:7 ratio is light when compared to the US’s domestic prison population. One could almost call it an inadvertent success, a triumph of the human spirit and the restraints the devout choose to accept and which binds their behavior.

What sort of enemy would Bush or Cheney become to a state that imprisoned and treated them as they have done to others? Why would ANYONE imprisoned, abused or tortured for six or seven years – and who had done nothing wrong but be in the wrong place at the wrong time – not turn on their captors? That they don’t is a plot not even Victor Hugo could make credible.

The longer we abuse them – criminal and innocent alike – the more likely we are to turn the friendly or neutral into enemies, and the harder we make those already our enemy.

Fair treatment, BTW, is not kid gloves treatment. It is holding prisoners for what they’ve already done – including conspire or plan to harm. It is holding them because the law already made their conduct criminal. It is holding them in humane, if spartan, conditions.

It is building a credible case against them, using generally agreed upon evidentiary rules, and presenting it in open court as promptly as circumstances allow. It is allowing the defendant access to that case beforehand, along with competent counsel, and allowing them a fair opportunity to refute it.

Those are precisely the elements of fairness – which justify allowing the state to imprison and punish those it claims are its enemies – that Mr. Cheney and increasingly Mr. Obama discard. That way lies fascism and tyranny, not security at home or workable relations abroad.

didn’t anybody see glenn beck explain the difference beteween a JOURNALIST and a COMMENTATOR ???

journalists check facts, care about the truth, and use logic and common sense to deduce what is accurate and what is false

commentators just make shit up. they print repuglitarded talking points verbatim. they have no need for facts or fact checkers, and they do not consult logic or common sense when they use their stenographic skills to serve the repuglitard party

so the answer is obvious

Elizabeth Bumiller is a COMMENTATOR, not a journalist

Interesting that describing the conduct of the government that imprisoned and abused them is deemed “militant” by the abusing government.

Defending themselves and their version of events – First Amendment rights here – has been run through the newspeak shredder. That puts us in the same league as Burma and makes suspect even that claimed, low rate of “recidivism”. The term itself is deceptive until the government successfully and credibly defends its claims that the imprisoned were guilty of a crime. Until then, it’s another form of propaganda.

Yes, Blub. American-captured German POWs were given adequate food, shelter and medical care, and worked on farms and work gangs. They were even paid for their work (although at a very low rate).

There is a lot of information made available on those who have had hearings. Here is a list on wikipedia with links to individual detainees. From the details presented at their hearings, you can see how weak the evidence is. For instance, one of the reasons for continued detention for a detainee was that he was wearing a Casio watch when he was captured. Casio watches had been used in making timers for bombs. Therefore, that is considered evidence of his intent to make bombs. I looked up the model of the watch and it was almost exactly like the one I have been wearing for many years because it is cheap and reliable. They are available almost everywhere in the world. Yet, there it was listed as one of the reasons for continued detention. Read some of the reports on the individuals and see what you would think if you were on a panel trying to decide if they should be released or not.

Some of them have had two hearings. The first panel decided they should be released. Instead, they were held and reviewed by a second panel. Based on the same evidence, the second panel decided not to release. It all reminds me of Kafka novels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L….._detainees

And some settled here.

Much like the Hessian mercenaries, many, many of whom stayed in America when released from POW camps.
George Washington always emphasized fair, humane treatment of prisoners to his troops. He was the first to express NOT torturing prisoners/enemies as a primary American value.

Ah – just got to your last line.
Yes, Kafkaesque is the best description for all this stuff. Appalling, and amazing apply too.

Recidivism rates for the domestic prisoners is counting people who have been tried and convicted before being imprisoned and released.

None of those Guantanamo detainees had been tried or convicted of anything. The comparisons are irrational and meaningless.

The question is how many have been proven to have been terrorists and how do we know for certain they are the same people. We know how often the same names are used and how often mistakes in identity are made. Unless they are doing DNA matching, it would be hard to tell. Look how often mistakes are made on the no-fly list. There are many reasons to be cynical about these reports of released detainees” heading straight back to the battlefield to kill Americans.” We also know the records keeping on the detainees has been a complete mess.

now elizabeth bumiller wants to walk back the bullshit ???

Appearing on MSNBC today, Bumiller said “there is some debate about whether you should say ‘returned’ because some of them were perhaps not engaged in terrorism, as we know — some of them are being held there on vague charges.”

and she just learned this since yesterday ???

whoever taught the journalism classes this woman SLEPT THRU must be cringing in shame that his grade is on DITZY’s transcript

In England, German POW’s were held in camps and farmers could ask for them to come and help on their farms as laborers. A lot of them were just young farm boys drafted into the German army as with any war.

My father told stories of the Germans who were held at Camp Rucker in Alabama. There was quite a bit of contact between them and the local civilian population. He learned a bit of German from them. There was not a lot of fear about their being detained in the community. I never heard of any of them escaping although I am sure some did. It was a completely different attitude from what we are hearing about now.

Here’s a link to more details on German POW’s held in the US and abroad. Close to a half million were held in the US in over 500 camps scattered across the country. They were allowed out of the camps to work as laborers in farming, logging and helped keep the economy going.

http://www.blog.artlaflamme.com/?p=1120

There are some interesting points made in this article about current detainees and their status.