Obama today, on giving up liberty to get safety:
Finally, there remains the question of detainees at Guantanamo who cannot be prosecuted yet who pose a clear danger to the American people. I want to be honest: this is the toughest issue we will face. We are going to exhaust every avenue that we have to prosecute those at Guantanamo who pose a danger to our country. But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who have received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, commanded Taliban troops in battle, expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States.
In other words, people who have committed no crime which can be proved in a court of law, including the crime of conspiracy, will be held indefinitely without a trial. Note that Obama wants to use military commissions to try some detainees, which means that these detainees can’t be found guilty of anything even under military law. This is tantamount to punishment for a thought crime. It is also strikingly similar to the rationale used by the Bush Administration.
And, Obama said something else which is nothing more than a continuation of Bush Administration excuses:
In the midst of all these challenges, however, my single most important responsibility as President is to keep the American people safe. That is the first thing that I think about when I wake up in the morning. It is the last thing that I think about when I go to sleep at night.
Now, this is simply wrong. Here’s the Presidential oath of office, as enumerated in the Constitution:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
Nothing about the most important duty being to keep Americans safe. The first duty is to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. What’s the Constitution have to say about punishing people without a trial? Well, the Fifth Amendment says:
No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law.
In other words, you get a trial. What about the idea that civilian courts shouldn’t have jurisdiction?
The privilege of the writ habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it.
Note that America is not invaded, and it is not in the throes of a rebellion. Heck, this isn’t even just violating the Constitution, it doesn’t even match up to the Magna Carta, a document 800 years old:
No free man shall be taken, imprisoned, disseised, outlawed, banished, or in any way destroyed, not will we proceed against or prosecute him, except by the lawful judgment of his peers and by the law of the land.
Which is to say, you can’t be punished without being convicted by a jury of your peers. The danger here with Obama is, in certain respects, worse than that of the Bush Administration. Bush certainly wrapped his actions in the flag, but less so in the Constitution. The phrase "the Constitution is not a suicide pact" implicitly admitted that what was being done didn’t meet a strict interpretation of the Constitution, but hey, they couldn’t have really meant those words for "bad people". Obama instead implicitly claims to come to praise and protect the Constitution, not to bury it:
Fidelity to our values is the reason why the United States of America grew from a small string of colonies under the writ of an empire to the strongest nation in the world.
Having said that, he then wants to do things which go explicitly against the values in the Constitution. If those aren’t American values, then I certainly don’t know what are. America was born in a fight against tyranny. The idea of the executive being able to hold people indefinitely without trial is inherently despotic and destructive of liberty. The only way to determine guilt is with a trial. As Benjamin Franklin (who knew a thing or two about American values) said, it is better [one hundred] guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer. Ben Franklin also said something else, which has been quoted a great deal in the last eight years, for good reason:
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
The idea that safety can be purchased by giving up liberty is simply wrong. Americans have much more to fear from a President who can lock up folks indefinitely without a trial than they do from al-Qaeda. Republicans, think about a Democrat able to do it. Democrats, think about the next Bush (and there will be one) able to do that. In terms of foreign policy, America’s great strength, as Obama explicitly recognized, was its values. Those values gave America moral authority and made other countries feel that America was in the right. An America which holds people without trial, which violates the right of habeas corpus and which violates its own constitutional values is no beacon to the world and cannot effectively argue for its own values. Such an America is just another self-interested power player, little different from any other. Obama is certainly the master rhetorician he has been acclaimed. He has wrapped an essentially un-American policy in American values, and used the same rationale as George W. Bush, that he has to take away a little liberty, in order to give Americans a little more safety. And perhaps he has a point. Perhaps some of the prisoners, if released, will go back and take up terrorist activities again. Let us assume, for the point of argument, that they will. Does that mean that we punish them for crimes they have yet to commit? Does that mean we assume that we know that all of those chosen by Obama to be punished will commit crimes? Does that meant that it is not better that 100 guilty men go free rather than one innocent man be falsely imprisoned? And where do we draw the line? Once we’ve decided that thought crimes are worthy of preventative punishment, once that is a principle embedded in the law, who else are we going to lock up whom we can’t prove has committed a crime, not even that of conspiracy, because we think they may commit one in the future? That’s not a power any human being should have over another. But it is the power Obama has demanded, has arrogated to himself, just as George Bush does. If that isn’t against American values, then at long last, I don’t know what American values are. But I think it is clearly anti-American, and I think all those who have said "give me liberty or give me death", or similar phrases, recognize in their hearts that what was done under Bush and what Obama is attempting to do are fundamental violations of the values that made America what it is.



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Maybe if he takes the oath of office one more time, that’ll do the trick. Jesus.
I was impressed with Obama’s speech today.
He explained things to me.
I take him at his word.
Need to cut him some slack.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.—Benjamin Franklin
Obama = Corporate Neo-Liberal
100 days is enough time for a ruler to establish his priorities. For Obama, it looks like this:
1. Reinforce the entrenched economic dominance of the investment banking cartel; indemnify major players from financial loss.
2. Consolidate the military occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan; neutralize Iran and prepare the foundation for expansion into Pakistan.
3. Clamp a lid on political excesses of the outgoing regime; ensure loyalty of military and CIA via guarantees of immunity from prosecution.
4. Stonewall on health insurance reform to give major insurers time to distribute congressional campaign donations.
People told me to give Bush some slack, too. I didn’t do it then and I won’t do it now.
“Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something.”
President Obama, Prague, April 5th.
But Obama is no Bushie!
No he’s worse, he’s articulate.
as long as we place our trust in personalities and not principles, we’re effed.
Welcome Back Ian
You know that the Fifth only applies to American citizens. According to the Bushies.
Look, I voted for him. I’m just hearing some very bad old echoes of Bush in that speech.
If this speech were given by Bush, I would feel the same way.
You;ve been missed, welcome ‘o wise one.
People are still claiming he’s playing chess. As a former chess champion I would like to say it all looks like a game of (hegemony) footsie with Cheney to me.
Kissinger must be on the floor laughing.
Indeed… very nice to see you Ian.
Although I did not agree with everything that Obama said today, I found him to be, for the most part, persuasive.
Many here seem to think the detainees in Gitmo have a constitutional right to a criminal jury trial in a domestic federal court. They do not.
Let’s face facts folks. Obama is George W. Bush Lite.
I am sufferin’ from buyers remorse. I voted for Obama and I refuse to see him trample the Constitution.He is a Constitutional scholar who doesn’t understand the basic oath.
But, in the words of William Lloyd Garrison ” I will not equivocate – I will not excuse – I will not retreat a single inch – and I will be heard! …
Hmmmm.
You think he’s not sincere.
I can’t believe it yet, maybe I’m too idealistic but
damn let’s give him time.
I think he leans too much in believing in his military, which as I said, may well be his downfall.
He inherited a lot of shit…
Sure they do. It’s called Habeas Corpus rights and even the Robert’s Court felt the Constitution shall remain in place even in extraordinary times
See: Boumediene v. Bush
Also go down about 1/3 of the way down in Ian’s post for info on the Magna Carta which is relevant because … off the top of my head, I forget which treaty it was that said that English Common Law would be the basis for the Common Law of the US
This headline is simply amazing: “Obama, Cheney give dueling security speeches”
Frackin’ a.. this is a direct challenge to presidential authority. We have a shadow president.
Obama is not being consistent. Unless this report is false;
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05…..1&hpw
Hekmatyar meets the definition of one who is at war with the US (and Afghanistan, and anyone else who gets in his way). But BO’s administration is all about stepping back and allowing him to negotiate a place for himself in the Afghan government? IOW, it is okay to launder a heinous murdering insane warlord, who still commands an army and contemplate rewarding his unforgivable intransigence with a respectable position of power but we have to treat anyone at Gitmo -including those wrongly detained- as a very dangerous person, for ever and ever?
“Let’s face facts folks. Obama is George W. Bush lite.” Surely you jest?
Obama gave a speech. Cheney gave a confession. I hope it wasn’t an allocution in advance of a plea bargain.
obama said he would fight the release of torture pics. obama said that he wants the power to detain people indefinitely without trial. he said he wants to bypass our legal system (both domestic and military).
i don’t know where sincere comes in. :(
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
Well, that explains why George Bush & Dick Cheney sat back and allowed 9/11 to happen without interruption. It wasn’t their duty to protect Americans at all. This will be their defense in court now I’m sure!
Actually, I thought I heard him say today that he doesn’t want the pics released but will abide by the court’s decision?
Why put a question mark on your headline when your mind is made up?
~ Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 84
But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who have received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, commanded Taliban troops in battle, expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States.
good fucking doG, that’s wrong on so many levels. Can’t prosecute them? Whose fault is that? (hint: his last name starts with a “C”, ends with a “Y”, and has a daughter who is a shrill shill and a pain-in-the-ass).
They’ve been trained to fight and have expressed allegiance to their leader? fine – let’s lock up the entire military forces of N. Korea, Iran, etc.
“They remain at war with the United States”.
What fucking war?
John,
First, a habeous corpus hearing is not a criminal jury trial.
Second, the Magna Carta in no way grants detainess in Gitmo a right to a criminal jury trail in a domestic federal court.
There is a difference in what you think ought to be done with these detainees and what there actual constitutional rights are.
“arbitrary government”
That just about sums up the USA from 2000 to 2008
Nice Speech, but …..
Obama = Bush = Criminal
Too bad, we had such high hopes for him, and indeed for our return to a Constitutional Law based nation.
The one all them Humvees are parked at?
Who you callin a hoe. . .
edit submited
I kinda liked it!
I frequently jest but not on this occasion.
And don’t call me Shirley (rim shot)
Seems to me the traditional means of military tribunals would have been fine for the most part… even though they allowed a great deal of latitude for the accuser.
Bush and Cheney tortured after detaining a whole lot of folks under ransom, hearsay, or simple unwarranted suspicion. This is no small part of the reason why they created their own egregious court system, because they didn’t want to admit what they /we have done.
Why Obama believes we need to keep the Cheney manufactured court system is beyond me. Though Ian sure demonstrates what kind of mental hoops and abrogation of oath he has to go through to justify his claims today.
I wrote on this earlier today.
If we look at scary people, there are a lot scarier people than those in Gitmo already in US jails, and, in fact, on our streets.
If you look at damage done, I would say again look at John Mack head of Morgan Stanley, Lloyd Blankfein CEO of Goldman Sachs, and Jamie Dimon head of JPMorgan Chase. These guys have done incalculable harm to our country, so much in fact that it is still up in the air if we will ever recover from it. Yet they walk our streets too. Far from being criminally pursued to the full extent of the law, they continue to receive trillions from the government whose Congress and Executive they continue to buy and sell.
I have pointed out before too that the evidentiary level and quality of case for a terrorist prosecution are already absurdly low in this country. If the government can’t find enough on these guys after all these years to win in a regular federal court, they A) aren’t trying, B) are lazy, C) are stupendously incompetent, or D) shouldn’t be holding these guys in the first place.
Jeeze, I’m so sick of this crap from Obama!
Is there anywhere we “liberals” can go to fight this? Within the last few days I’ve responded to e-mails from the DNC and DCCC requesting my “support” for Obama’s health care proposals with a nasty response: that I won’t be donating to them, Obama, or wherever until I get my country — and the constitutional rights I thought it provided — back.
But I have no belief that my few feeble e-mails are gonna stir up anything.
Anyone? Anyone?
Sent to the White House today
“Going forward, these cases will fall into five distinct categories. First, when feasible, we will try those who have violated American criminal laws in federal courts – courts provided for by the United States Constitution.”
First, no court NOT provided for by the Constitution is an American court nor can any other body pretend to adjudicate under the Constitution which is the only document that justifies prosecution of any person in American custody for any reason what so ever.
Further, since when in American law is it acceptable for the Executive Branch to decide when it is “feasible” to try lawbreakers.
I personally find it remarkable that your administration does not find it “feasible” to prosecute the crimes of the Bush administration but wants to prosecute Gitmo detainees who have been accused of crimes during the same period of time.
We need our own petition which says no to all of the above considerations on health care. if that’s all they want to do, then do nothing at all. Obamas letter/email yesterday was set up to automatically register you as a supporter if you replied at all.
They do have a right to a criminal jury trial if they are criminals. They do not if they are POWs. But, in the latter case, they can’t be tried for anything: they have to be released once hostilities end, and they have have free access to the Red Cross. The people being held at Guantanamo have rights because we, the people of the United States, enumerated those rights in our Constitution. No amount of politicking or legalistic hair-splitting can take those rights away.
Nor is there any reason to take those rights away. They are our rights too. They guarantee us the right to know who really perpetrated crimes, what happened, and how. They give us the right to know whether or not our officials have whitewashed crimes, connived at them, or coddled the perpetrators. Simply put, trials and proof are how we determine who did what. Until a trial proves otherwise, accused persons are presumed innocent. So if the people held at Guantanamo cannot be proved guilty in a civilian court or military court marshal, then they are not guilty. Period.
Rendering judgment after trial and due consideration of facts is how rational people behave. We do not presume that something has happened unless there is some supporting evidence.
The problem is that Gitmo, torture, rendition, domestic spying and the rest of this sordid mess have no basis in rationality: they are all irrational appeals to fear. Fear isn’t a reason. It is an emotion.
For eight years, we have let fear cloud our judgements. Reason has retreated before a terror that emanated from the White House and Congress, not the caves of Afghanistan. We listened to our so-called leaders, rather than our guts.
The day after 9/11, we knew one thing for sure: no one was ever going to be able to do it to us again. Anyone that tried would be swarmed by a scrum of punching, kicking, biting passengers and either killed or duct taped to a seat. Once we knew what to expect, we weren’t afraid anymore. Every mild-mannered regular airline traveller I know talked about fighting tooth and nail, do or die. Without the help of surprise and uncertainty, terrorists could no longer cow passengers, as the shoe bomber and any number of aggressive drunks have since found out to their cost.
So I’m not afraid of terrorism–it can’t break us. I am afraid of what can–the creeping dictatorship that began in this country under Nixon and Reagan and reached full flower under Bush and Cheyney. I’m afraid of fear-mongering policies that roll back crucial controls on semiautomatic firearms with high-capacity magazines and push for identity checks on everyone except those who stockpile arms. I am afraid of charades like the No-Fly List that train us to be sheep in the face of power while contributing nothing to the safety of travellers. I am afraid of having my legislators’ private communications screened for blackmail material.
Criminal politicians gave us the freedom-in-exchange-for-safety shell game. I do not want to be safe. I want to be free.
extra infuriating when obama hasn’t even made any health care proposals to support or critique. instead we have baucus (senator from k-street) in charge of designing reform to benefit insurance companies and making sure no one mentions single payer (unless it’s to confuse the issue).
thanks for making the effort to send the emails. may your efforts be magnified many times by the efforts of others.
What it comes down to is would you rather be complaining about President Obama or President McCain? I know what my answer is.
You want to expand on that little gem?
Hmm, it couldn’t be that it’s the complaining in and of itself?
that’s what it came down to last november. not today.
President Obama is everything a Reagan Democrat should be, except that he is more like Bush-Cheney.
I am fed up with Obama. Never my first choice, he has failed to live up to “hopeful” expectations and he will continue to disappoint.
The thing that really burns me is the signing order that protects Timmy Geithner. Now I know that is not on a par with torture in many ways, but I believe it supports the critique that Obama fails to preserve,protect and defend the Constitution. We have a situation now where our own government a) refused to impeach (because it a political tool and inapplicable to the standard of “law”) and b) refused to investigate and prosecute (because it is regarded as “political” scalp-hunting). My God, people, what kind of tools do you need to get anything worth doing done?
Yes, they have constitutional rights. What I said, is that they do not have a constitutional right to a criminal jury trial in a domestic federal court.
Now, as to what should be done wih them, I haven’t made up my mind. You might be right.
Your basic point is correct: Obama’s first duty is to enforce the letter and spirit of the law. That dictates the manner in which he is allowed to “keep us safe”.
Even assuming we agree with his definition of “safe” (presumably, not the same as Dr. Szell’s), he has no authority to dictate what we are willing to give up in exchange for some verschaerfte version of “safe”.
that’s the part that stuck out for me too.
Bush/Cheney/Kristol etc used the same argument for invading Iran. “They know how to make nuclear weapons, so we must take (military) action.” IE “you scare us, so we’re going to take away your liberty”.
That’s got to breach a ton of treaties and international law (i think).
Exactly. Good observation Raven. ;-)
It will be interesting to find out how many of these confessions (allegience to al-Qaida etc.) were obtained via torture.
I would have happily given him all the time in the world, if he hadn’t surrounded himself with the likes of Summers, Geithner and Ratner, Gates and all his little torture-approving generals (Odierno, McChrystal, et al.), and if he wasn’t routinely going into court making arguments that go beyond Bush’s assertions of executive authority.
This isn’t a guy who needs time, he needs a complete overhaul of his staff and his priorities. We’re not going to get a public plan with our health insurance reform, we didn’t get cramdown, no one is seriously talking about Glass-Steagal, and Obama’s signing statement on a modern Pecora commission should recognize a statement out of the Unitary Executive play book when they see one. So no, I don’t think Obama is sincere.
From my link
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06……html?_r=1
We have a Constitution
The Constitution even trumps Bush’s and Obama’s Charles the 1st type assertion of Per speciale Mandatum Domini Regis which he claimed in the Five Knights Case and which led to the Petition of Right
Not a lawyer and not smart enough to read mumbo-jumbo but doesn’t a ruling focused on a large part on Habeas Corpus mean it was based on Habeas Corpus?
The article continues
That would be for example, Lakhdar Boumediene who was …
Maybe someone can nitpick and say this ruling refutes what I’ve said but it seems contrary to the final arbiter which says what the law is. Again the second quote
Specifically, what provision of the Costitution are you claiming Obama is violating? Anyone?
This “give it time” argument is one of the most patently bankrupt arguments conceivable when leveling criticism regarding topics like state secrets, rule of law, etc.
There are things that the Obama Administration has already acted on which are the point of criticism here, not that he passively hasn’t gotten around yet to performing his Constitutional duty, but rather specifically that he has actively engaged already abrogating it.
You can’t say “give it time” as a defense for the Obama DoJ actively pursuing Bushesque state secrets claims in a variety of cases in an attempt to prevent the courts from adjudicating them entirely. How much more time can I give him to wait for something he’s already done? It’s absurd.
Good grief. Are we fighting among ourselves already?
Honest, folks, I’m disappointed, too, and I have sent some similar emails protesting.
But we knew we wouldn’t agree with everything. I wouldn’t agree with everything Hillary Clinton would have done, either. We had a limited choice, and I still think we made the best one.
I think robspierre expressed my views pretty well.
The thing is, it’s not so easy to clean up the ‘detainee’ mess. There is no doubt that many people held there were innocent when picked up (Kieth Olbermann was wrong that no one is saying there are innocent people there), but it owuld not br surprising if they’re anti-American now.
I absolutelly agree that it’s fundamental to “American-ness,” to the most basic principles, that no one, NO ONE can be held without charges, indefinitely, for prevention of their committing a crime.
The erosion of this principle, and the fact that average citizens tend not to be outraged by it anymore, is one of the worst, most destructive actions of the Bush-Cheney years.
BUT – poltically, releasing without any trial anybody at Gitmo now, after the 8 yrs. of these destructive policies/practices, would get the Pres. crucified, especially if any of the released were caught preparing a real attack. And he’s got to figure out a way through this convoluted thicket, not of his making. Some stalling is understanable.
Note: It is possible that those innocent folks were among the 500+ Bush released – I don’t know. But those there now have to be tried or released. No question. Just a problem to be solved.
The fourth and fifth amendment guarantees of speedy trial, to know charges against you, the confront the witnesses against you, etc., etc.
Ah, wrong numbers – the fifth and sixth amendments – my bad.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/con…..ights.html
Ah, the argument of the era. The United States of America, where political expediency trumps rule-of-law every time.
Well he’s arguably violating the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th amendments. He’s definitely violating at least Article IV, if not Article III, of the Geneva Conventions, and while not a signatory to the ICC Rome Statute he’s violating that too. Oh and both Iraq and Afghanistan are violations of the UN Charter which codifies customary international law.
He sure may have inherited much of that, but he’s also promulgated his complicity with it in some cases, and further extended the nature of the violations in others.
Of course he’s not alone. Congress has a lot to answer for here.
Even if one grants that, and I’m not doing so, there is a class of people whom he wants to lock up without any trial at all.
They either get their right to a domestic trial, or they get the rights under the Geneva conventions, which would not allow them to be treated as they have been or are, or for them to be kept locked up forever under some BS eternal war against a concept “terror” which will never, ever, end.
And, heya pups :)
I can’t argue with “arguably.” But, that is different than the multiple hyperbolic comments asserting Obama is violating the Constitution.
Once again, I am not contending folks here are necessarily wrong as to what should be done; rather, I am objecting to the unqualified assertions that Obama is violating the Constitution.
Do you mean people HE wants to lock up or people who BUSH locked up and he doesn’t want free to attack us? There is a difference.
~ Winston Churchill, November 21, 1943
That seems to be a straw man argument. Detained prisoners should all be tried, except those for whom there is no reasonable evidence to support a charge. Because Dick Cheney or Rush Limbaugh claim to fear them is not a sufficient basis to detain them. The mere fact that we have imprisoned men is not an adequate basis to continue to detain them. The claim that it is is Republican propaganda.
The majority of detainees at Gitmo do not appear to have committed any crime. Continuing to detain them is a continuing crime on our part. Apparently in many or most cases, Bush failed to document a rational basis for holding these men. He did it because he could. Obama continues with that logic, though he promises to think up a more rational basis, but not until some later date. That’s not enough of a reason in any civilized country in the world.
Either there’s a documented, rational reason to detain these men – based on their prior actions – or there isn’t. If there is, the quality of the evidence should be assessed and if it supports it, these men should be brought to trial. If it doesn’t they should be set free.
Those for whom detention was a Dreyfussian mistake should be freed with an apology and compensation. Those for whom we have suspicions but no evidence not obtained through torture should be set free because suspicion of a crime is not a crime, nor is it proving a crime by any rational process, nor is it an adequate basis to deprive a human being of their liberty.
The remaining prisoners against whom there is reasonable, credible evidence should be tried. If found guilty, they should be sentenced to a reasonable term of years – based on the character of their crimes. A life sentence is currently the default and only punishment. That is reprehensible if it is not commensurate with their crimes. Those not convicted will be set free; courts do it every day. Those convicted will remain in prison a specific number of years – and then be set free.
The kind of substitute “legal system” Obama is talking about, which mirrors Bush’s, but which Obama promises will come with some rationale beyond, “because I said so,” is tyranny. It’s a variation on Texas justice, small town justice, Southern justice – all ironic qualifiers – and the dictatorial regimes of Latin America and Africa.
He takes responsibility now. Sorry. “Well Bush locked you up, but I’m going to keep you locked up” does not let him off the hook.
And I don’t give 2 good goddamn’s if someone thinks they will attack again or not. If you can’t prove a crime, you don’t lock people up. Period. To accept otherwise is the direct road to tyranny.
(The US recidivism rate is about 70%, that’s pretty high. Maybe we should just lock them all up permanently… except even that doesn’t correlate, because those people have been convicted of crimes. The recidivism rate for Guantanmo, at most? 1 in 7.)
I agree. Let the law not the President take its course. We are supposed to be a nation of laws but Executives now feel that only those decisions they feel like should be subject to the law. All down the ages this has been the hallmark of tyranny.
”But I think it is clearly anti-American, and I think all those who have said ”give me liberty or give me death”, or similar phrases, recognize in their hearts that what was done under Bush and what Obama is attempting to do are fundamental violations of the values that made America what it is.”
yes, well and firmly stated throughout.
but many seem to have something even more fundamental – the need to vote for and support and apologize for Democrats, no matter what they do!
the courage and clarity of your convictions seems to be in the minority these days, Ian, present company largely excepted of course. The true believers stay away in droves the moment criticism of their Leader is uttered, especially criticism that is impossible to refute.
what a travesty – to pitch away principles you yelled for 8 years about in order to become a bunch of dittoheads.
And then there are the Uighers. It has been decided they should be released, but where? They could be released in the DC area where there is a small community of Uighers, but would they be safe due to the attitudes of Congress members nimbyism and fear-mongering.
I keep thinking about the Marielitos who ended up spending the rest of their days in prison because we could not have them at large and we could not send them back to Cuba. Most of those who were freed ended up dead or back in prison for serious crimes or in mental institutions. That was Castro’s revenge on Carter. Big mistake.
Here a reminder of the Marielito problem and how messy things can get :
http://encyclopediaofarkansas……tryID=4248
I bet the Clintons haven’t forgotten.
There is no doubt that many people held there were innocent when picked up (Kieth Olbermann was wrong that no one is saying there are innocent people there), but it owuld not br surprising if they’re anti-American now.
“Were” innocent? So if years of imprisonment and abuse makes someone anti-American, he’s no longer innocent?