We are the breadbasket of the world
then fret about the price of soybeans and corn dropping, and worry if there was hail, or no rain. My grandfather had been a farmer, and though she moved to town when he died in a tractor accident, she still owned land, which was farmed.
There was a lot of pride in Eisenhower having come from Kansas, and everyone my grandmother knew of all ages was Republican and went to church. There were many churches, and for some reason she didn’t go to the one across the street because it wasn’t her church… hey isn’t God everywhere? That baffled me.
What’s the Matter with Kansas — based on the best-selling book by Thomas Frank–fascinated me because it showed a deeper side than I had seen in my visits–which concluded when I was 15 when my grandmother moved into a rest home. My grandmother never touched on the radical history of Kansas, how Eugene Debs carried Crawford County; how the largest newspaper in the country in the early 1900s was a socialist paper published in southeast Kansas; about the radicals. Though in all fairness, she was pretty thrilled about the suffragette movement getting a toehold in Kansas–along with being thrilled that Kansas never repealed Prohibition.
Filmmakers Joe Winston and Laura Cohen take us on journey through modern Kansas where faith is foremost and evolution is a gospel truth. We meet Angel Dillard who sings her local church and volunteers for a pro-life group. Her anti-gay, anti-choice pastor Terry Fox is forced to resign from his mega church and starts holding services in Wild West World, “the only church in America holding services in a theme park” until the park goes bankrupt–the park itself was an investment opportunity for church members, and many members, including Angel, were left broke.
There’s also a trip to a different theme park the Creation Museum in Kentucky which high school senior and rabid conservative takes with her mom and siblings. Home schooled Brittany Barden wants to return America to its Christian roots, and there trip to the Creation Museum is an eye opener for me, though for the Bardens it simply reinforces their faith. Brittany and her family, like many others, support Phill Kine for attorney general in the 2006 elections and are shocked when he looses.
But Kansas hasn’t completely succumbed to hard line right wing values. Curmudgeonly sculptor M. T. Ligget (below in a semi-NSFW interview) declares Bush “an asshole” and doesn’t care one way or the other about gay marriage or abortion because they are not his business as he makes art that challenges the entire spectrum of political views. Framer Donn Teske– a self describes “a red-neck Kansas farmer” –says corporate greed is “not very Christian.” Teske fights to save his family farm and others like it, traveling to Washington DC to speak to Congress, letting them know that family farmers care about the environment and global warming–and that they want to stay in business. There is also a strong immigrants rights movement in Kansas based around the meat packing industry, and also a pro-choice movement that manages to help defeat Pill Kine.
Wilson and Cohen let the subjects speak for themselves and tell their own stories, without commentary or narrative. I found myself feeling warmth and compassion for Angel as her backstory unfolded, though I completely disagree with her social views. And Brittany’s younger sister has no interest in her family’s obsessive Jesus-ing–expect a rebellion from this child. Plus we see how locals react to FEMA’s arrival after a huge tornado.
Geographically Kansas is at the heart of our country, and while Jell-O is a still a salad there (especially the orange flavored one with carrots), What’s the Matter With Kansas shows that the politics are changing, that not all Republicans agreed with the war, and that Bush mislead his voting block when it came to focusing on moral issues–and that these people know that. As the movie shows, it is possible to swing back from being ultra-conservative to electing Democrats, and maybe one day college students like Brittany will learn we were not founded as Christian nation but as a free thinking one.



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Quick note–please stay on topic–in this case conservative values in the heartland, liberal changes in the heartland, how and why people think America was founded as a Christian nation, and related themes from the awesome doc What’s the Matter with Kansas. Please no attack stuff, swearing to a minimum and no off topic cross talk..thanks!
Hi Joe and Laura, thanks so much for joining us! Your movie struck a chord with me because I spent over a dozen summers in Kansas with my grandmother, going to Sunday school, hanging out at the library and local pool, catching fireflies at evening ice cream socials. My granny was a Republican through and through, she thought Nixon got a raw deal!
Very glad to be here, new at this live chat thing.
Hi everybody. Laura Cohen here.
I havent read Thimas frank’s book, but I can see how it inspired you…were the subjects of your film in the book..and if not how did you find such a compelling story? The church drama, Brittany goign to college?
welcome, Joe. I was very moved by your documentary. I was expecting to be disturbed on the level of “Jesus Camp”, but your portrayal of your subjects was far more balanced than I had anticipated. Incredibly well done!
And welcome, Laura!
And then there is the Reverend Phelps of Topeka and his merry band.
Regarding your grandma, Lisa, Kansans of course have been solidly Republican since Lincoln. The recent difference has been the hard-right conservative Populism that swept the state in the early 1990s.
How did we find our subjects for the movie? Well, we followed up on everybody Tom Frank interviewed, but to go deeper into Kansas we wanted to follow one of the conservative evangelical churches. Pastor Terry Fox was incredibly welcoming, and through him we met two of our three main families, including the Bardens who send their eldest daughter to Patrick Henry College.
Joe, Laura, Welcome to the Lake.
Where did the Populism begin in Kansas?
I lived in Wichita in the 70s and do not remember that.
Welcome, Good film, very gentle.
I found the old Socialist Newspaper story fascinating.
My dad was fascinated by one of the radical right groups that was robbing banks to fund a militia..they were based close to where he grew up and he knew a couple f the guys vaguely. I wish I could recall their names. Kansas was certainly radical during the mmid 1800s with John Brown and other guerilla groups
Well, the original Populists were left-wing activist farmers in the 1880s and 1890s, who fought against abuses by banks, railroads and other monopolies. Their activism flamed out in 1896 with William Jennings Bryan’s failed run for President, but they paved the way for the New Deal a generation later.
Conservative Populism in this country is a newer phenomenon, it really flowered in response to the excesses of the 1960s and the New Left. Kansas didn’t really get hit with it in full force until the Summer of Mercy protests, which we document in the movie, in 1991.
The church story was surreal–you couldnt MAKE THAT UP…a church investing in a theme park and holding services there. It was awesomely and perfectly American Gothic
Well, the advantage of hanging around our subjects for a long time was that they did have some adventures – and tragedies. When we first heard about what was happening to Terry Fox’s church – first the move to the Wild West amusement park, then the park’s sudden demise – we were flabbergasted.
Hi all , thank you for this. My late wife was born and raised on a farm a hop, skip and jump south of Coffeyville KS. Her mom & dad were staunch republicans and very religious (C of C) although her dad was a conscientious objector. Go figure
Well, this sounds like a swell movie, thanks so much for chatting today, and thanks to our hostess Lisa for these wonderful forums every week.
Have you had any reaction to the film from its subjects?
What was the follow up on that–were Miss Cheryl and her husband who started the theme park, lost everyone’s $ and moved ot texas ever sued/prosecuted? Or did folks just let it go? I sensed Angel and her husband lost a decent sun..and Terry Fox lost $50K…
We sent DVDs of the movie to everyone who was in the movie, then we screened it as a work-in-progress last fall at the Tallgrass Film Festival in Wichita. Most of the people in the movie live in or near there, so we invited them all to attend and many of them did.
Everybody who is in the movie liked it, some loved it, they all felt fairly treated. In fact, Rob and Angel Dillard actually stood up in front of a packed auditorium of 400 people and defended us against some audience criticism.
Thomas Etheredge, who started Wild West World and took all those investors’ money, has been hauled back to Wichita to stand trial for fraud. He’s been convicted in various other confidence schemes, and is probably on his way back to jail. A Wichita TV station found a quote of him saying the Christians made good marks for his confidence schemes.
We didn’t make it to Coffeyville, but we did film in the ghost town of Radical, near Independence.
I felt you portrayed things fairly–you showed different aspects of the the state, and while the Christian conservatives are a huge part (and are pretty wacky) well they are a huge part of the state–and their views are very different from some people in other parts of the country.
Also, hme schooling seems every bit as indoctrinating as the public school system–just with a different point of views–and minus critical thinking!
Joe and Laura, is it possible to describe or discuss your subjective experiences of working closely with people whose values may be quite dissimilar to yours?
Also, I’m wondering what brought you to decide to take up Thomas Frank’s book as the basis for a film. Really glad you made the choice!
It was important to us to be fair to the people in the movie. Besides the fact that they were so generous and welcoming to us and deserved it, we’re tired of invectives and one-sided critiques which, too ofter, make fun of Middle Americans. It’s so easy to have one over one people when you have a camera and you can edit their responses later.
Because of their control of the American media and education through their monopoly on credit, the inbred, Masonic banking families have convinced the conditioned, human resource, debt slave, TV watchers that they created, that it’s ok to sacrifice their freedom and rights for risk of being typecast as a mentally ill, Anti-semetic, conspiracy theorist.
We got excited by an overlooked aspect of Thomas Frank’s book – the idea that to understand America, you must go to Kansas.
The real fun of making documentaries is meeting people you wouldn’t otherwise meet. The 2004 election made me realize I knew much less of this country than I thought.
Kansans are friendly and welcoming people, and I have to say, especially the conservatives. Their Christian values really mean something to them. Once we explained that we were interested in them and what they think, and we were not going to comment on or make fun of them, they welcomed us and never interrogated us about our intentions.
There seems to be a sad realization to many that Bush had hoodwinked them with his promises of morality, of enforcing so-called Christian values (controlling values, really) and instead ganked us with overspending and a looooong war.
Well, the fissures in the Republican coalition were apparent even back in 2006. But I have to say I don’t think Terry Fox and his crew are embracing Obama. There’s still an enormous gap.
I spent a lot of time traveling through all states west of the Mississippi river during the late 80’s thru late 90’s.
And I was not at all surprised by the KS folks.. thought they looked and thought like most Southern and Midwest Americans. Wished their inherent proclivity for violence would have been revealed in the film. Because it’s there, at the core.
Perhaps, but we certainly so no evidence of it.
Someone earlier mentioned Fred Phelps. He’s a pro-typical hater. But conservative Kansans are more repulsed by him than anyone.
Was there any connection to the beliefs held and the socialist Green Corn Rebellion of 1917.
That’s a new one on me, but that kind of thing used to be very typical of Kansas. Southesast Kansas, as you probably know, was home to the Appeal to Reason, the largest Socialist newspaper in the country for a while.
The interesting thing is that the Kansans who went Socialist in 1910 have striking simlarities of style to the Kansans who went hard-right Republican in the 1990s – Populist anger at the perceived Elites, usually from the East.
Iloved seeing the both MT Ligget and the work of the other raical artist whose name escapes me… folk/outsider art is so truly radical. And Ligget was a real no-nonsense kinda guy.
Why has conservatism become so appealing to so many Americans who would have sided with liberals in the past? The populist approach is a very affective means for influencing folks.
I think we, and hopefully they, have realized their perception has been validated in spades.
We love M. T. Liggett, that cranky old soul. He claims his roadside art is the second-biggest tourist attraction in the state of Kansas, after Dodge City.
Liggett is certainly connected in spirit to S. P. Dinsmoor and the Garden of Eden. In fact, Lucas Kansas, where the Garden is located, has a bunch of folk art galleries that show, among others, the works of M. T. Liggett.
I miss MT Ligget! We had such a good time with him. What a fireball. And a flirt, even at 75. He just says the most outragious things and his art is right in line with his personality.
Ligget is such a procateur, neither liberal nor conservative, a free thinker. I loved his FEMA rants–FEMA is a huge fear button for a certain stripe of conspiracy theorists both on the rght and left.
BTW, a funny thing about M. T. is that Angel Dillard loves his art, too, she takes her children to see it. We learned this after we were done with the movie and she had seen it.
Hope I’m not putting you on you the spot, but do you or Laura see any social forces redirecting the anger at perceived elites in directions more congruent with progressive values?
Guess I’m hoping folks in Kansas are just as disenchanted with the banksters as are progressives.
I’d place M. T. as being something of a libertarian, a classic Old West “keep out of my business” type. He hates all forms of centralized planning and grand ideas. I guess I’m glad he’s not running the country, but no one spots a hypocrite like old M. T.
Well, McCain still carried the state by a huge margin, and the only Dems that win in Kansas are Moderate Republicans who crossed party lines because they tired of losing primaries.
So I’d say that liberals have yet to close the deal in Kansas.
How will Kansans go when the economy collapses completely within the next 6-12 months? Socialist or proto-fascist? Most likely the nation already knows the answer.
Well, if you read Frank Rich then you believe that economic disaster trumps culture wars. When I was with Tom Frank last weekend at Politics on Film, he said the same thing.
So, in truly hard times, Kansans and others are a lot more likely to vote their pocketbook. But that doesn’t mean that the cultural resentments against Eastern Elites don’t still hold. I get the sense that all but the most hard-core culture warriors kind of call a truce when the economy tanks.
But then again – the bailouts have provoked a lot of resentment from the right, what if they fail and the money appears to have been wasted?
Is there a connection and appreciation here of Sebelious who went toe to toe with the insurance industry.
I think that issues like same sex marriage and pro choice become less pressing during tough economic times, though rightwing preachers wil try to whip fervor about how God is punishing America because ”we allow these blasphemies.”
Wow. That’s pretty daunting.
Moving from political affiliation to personal values, as you and Laura met the folks you depicted (and their families), did you see any cognitive dissonance between their values of being friendly and welcoming (same values I’ve seen in my rural Ohio relatives) on the one hand, and the intolerant social movements that claimed them as adherents?
Sebelius, to paint her with a broad brush, is a classic Moderate. Ten years ago she could have been a Republican. The Dems that win in Kansas are mostly conservative on ecomonics, somewhat liberal on social values.
Grin. That’s a lovely idea, too.
Great question, Kirk. The Kansas conservatives we spent time with don’t view themselves as haters. Their opposition to abortion, for example, they see in loving terms. A quest to make the world a better place.
A sense of dissonance comes in when you pull back and see what is happening to their beloved home state – the ruined farms, empty towns, declining Middle Class.
.
“What’s the Matter with Kansas?”
Besides where it is and what’s in it? Nothing.
Wait. Wasn’t Superman from Kansas? Whatever happened to him?
He was a g*dd*mned illegal alien, y’know.
.
If the mentally ill, anti-semitic, conspiracy theorists would stop holding back the driven, corporate women from breaking the glass ceiling, Kansas would be alright.
It was pretty clear that the social conservatives in our movie had little to no exposure to gay people, people of different races, different ideas. Which is a real shame.
More on Kirk’s question – there is one character, Bob, the aging substitute teacher who calls Pro_choice Democrats “Pro-Death,” who is noticeably angrier than the others. He was hard to get close to, and the only one who seemed mistrustful of us.
I feel it was a class resentment coming from him. He sees his way of life in decline, despite his hard work, his kids’ prospects as diminished from his own, and he’s angry about it. I don’t blame him.
If the mentally ill, anti-semitic, conspiracy theorists would stop holding back the driven, gay, corporate women of color from breaking the glass ceiling, Kansas would be alright.
Wow. On one level that is terribly sad – a tragedy of the social commons.
The Richard Viguries and Cal Thomases and James Dobsons who twisted these folks’ genuine religiosity for tactical political reasons utterly betrayed them, in so many ways.
Just a bit more background about the film: For those familiar with Kansas we spent a lot of time in Wichita, but we also filmed in Topeka, Dodge City, Garden City, Syracuse, Lucas, Independence, Sedan, Pittsburgh, Concordia, Girard.
Boy, the crowd in Wichita was tougher on us than any of you guys. Kansans love a good argument, and they can all quote their history, back to John Brown and the cross-border raids with Missouri.
500 channels replaced books and newspapers.
Big tractors and big boxes (like Wal Mart and mega churches) almost wiped out small farm / community.
Well, for me I am more curious than debate oriented. Were the Wichitonians surprised by their state’s radical liberal past? And okay the PhD at the Creation Museum as INSANE–and he didnt really answer the questions, he just wnet on a canned rant… BTW, Brittany’s sister is SOOOOO not into her life.
I think it is likely that we’ll see fundamentalist Christians retreat from political activism. We saw signs of that in the people we filmed – when they don’t have charismatic leadership and the causes seem hopeless, well, this is a big country, and it could become easier to retreat into their own communities, much as what happened after the embarrassment of the Scopes “Monkey” trial in the 1920s.
A personal note on isolation – when we were filming, we vacation for a short time at a friend’s house in Vermont, and back in 2005-6 that corner of the country felt like a place where liberals retreated from doing battle with the conservatives, to a place they could make all the rules. I think it’s better when we all have to live together, even if it’s messier.
I was joking about Wichita; mostly they got tough on us when the many moderates in the audience bristled at seeing so much screen time devoted to the conservatives, who they revile. The problem, as we explained to a mixed reaction, is that moderates just aren’t as INTERESTING.
Re: Tiffany, Brittany’s little sister, she does look bored during the long speeches and sermons, because she’s seven years old. She is on board with her mother’s teachings now, we think, but we do see signs of possible rebellion in her… it’d be fascinating to check back.
I stayed one night in Topeka in 1988. When I pulled into the hotel parking lot I almost ran over a skunk. In the morning I went to the mini-mart for coffee and was individual working the register was a sex change operation person with his parents/owners standing behind him.
Did you not make it to Russell, the home of Bob Dole and Arlen Spector and the rusting drilling rig capital of KS.
Dr. Jason Lisle, the PhD at the Creation Museum is fascinating! I’ve watched countless times the scene of him explaining the Big Bang Theory vs the universe being created in 6 days and I really can’t get my mind around it completely. Yet he has a PhD from a reputable university! And a job!
However, they do claim to be religious or Christian. Don’t they believe God made everyone?
Re: Dr. Jason Lisle of the Creation Museum, I screened that interview for my dad, who’s a physicist, and he found it fascinating and repellent.
“I’ve heard from creationists,” he said, “and not only do facts not work on them, but there’s something they enjoy about sticking it to the man, poking in the eye of established science.”
Creation science is a kind of revenge by those lacking a science education – you could say, payback for the huge inequalities in our education system.
it’d be fascinating to check back.
I hope you do.
Question, did you discuss union labor with anyone, such as the farmer or the Mexican truck driver?
I was just thinking about the movie Boys Don’t Cry. It really demonstrated a lot of the underlying violence in the midwestern culture I mentioned earlier. I traveled between AR and NE a lot as a kid. Lived in and had family in both states. KS and NE are nearly identical culturally speaking, imo.
The beef industry as it now functions is a great example of what’s happened to unions. Actually, some of the $9/hr meatpacking workers are unionized, but the unions are very weak.
As for farmer Donn Teske, he is president of the Kansas Farmers Union, which is the more progressive alternative to the larger farm lobby groups. He is all about saving the family farmer, fighting for the little guy, across the board, and he’s made many sacrifices in his life to fight this uphill battle.
I think I’m in love with Mr. Ligget…
I hope you do check back. I am sure you have seen the Seven Up Series by Michael Apted. It is facinating to watch how much people change every 7 years. I loved the series and became quite attached to most of the people.
Also, don’t forget we briefly feature Dale Swenson, a former union worker at Boeing who is also a state legislator (we don’t delve into that part of his life.)
Dale points out that as a union member, he turned away from the New Democrats like Clinton because of NAFTA.
Go visit him, he’ll talk to you. He’s 79 though, so be gentle.
Wichita is home to Cessna and other aerospace industries. Aren’t they unionized?
Oh shoot, we are almost out of time! Joe and Laura thank you sooo much! and please let us know where and when What’s the Matter with Kansas wil be screening around the country and when we can get it on DVD or Huku.com! It’s AWESOME!
and everyone, thank you all for a GREAT chat!
Laura and I just watched the original Seven Up. One of the greatest docs ever, it started as a political statement about social class in Britain and evolved into a portrait of people and how we age. Amazing.
Of course, in our case, it might be fascinating to return to Kansas to see how our conservative activists hold up, if conservatism itself continues to falter.
Indeed. Enjoyed the conversation and looking forward to seeing the Doc.
World premiere Aug 6 at Film Society of Lincoln Center in NYC.
September for a full week at the Gene Siskel Film Center in Chicago.
Contact us if you can help organize a screening near you.
More info on whatsthematterwithkansas.com and our Facebook page.
Thanks everybody! Great chat!
We love fi folks could sign up for our infrequent updates on our website. We will let you know if we are coming to a city near you and our DVD will be available for sale very very soon!
Thanks so much! This was fun.
Yes, sorry I forget about him. Was stunned by his (shortsighted) statement. I guess there is no Green party to turn to in KS. But running to the republicans because the Dems wont help labor just defies all reason.
Bless his heart.
Thanks for visiting Joe and Laura – will look forward to a showing in Denver.
Laura and Joe, thanks so much for joining us today and for your work. Good luck at your premiere and screenings.
Lisa, thanks so much for being our gracious hostess tonight.
My mother (whose grandfather was actually born near Radical City) was registered as a Republican until 1980 – although she didn’t vote as one. One of the older family member told her that her father would turn over in his grave because she was a Democrat, to which my mother replied that they’d just have to go out and smooth down the grass. (She voted against Reagan and both Bushes. More than once. Don’t even ask her views on Nixon.)
G****** wireless network!
I went to gradual school in Kansas and worked in Topeka for several years after I finished my doctorate. Between going to school and working, I lived there for 11 years. I can’t say that I understand Kansas at all, even after all that time there.
By comparison New Mexico is fairly easy to understand, despite Lew Wallace’s aphorism that one can be sure that whatever experience may show to work elsewhere, it won’t work in New Mexico. Of course, Governor Lew might have felt differently if he’d spent more time at his desk governing and less working on Ben Hur.
Hawaii (the State where I was born) has a well-earned reputation for hospitality (best found on the outer islands, and on Oahu away from Honolulu). Kansans were as welcoming as folks on the Big Island. And, and, and yet … Kansans combine this with an intolerance that I could never quite comprehend.
If understanding Kansas is prerequisite to understanding America, I don’t think I will ever understand America.