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	<title>Comments on: Potential Torture Photos Pitfall</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/</link>
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		<title>By: robspierre</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901536</link>
		<dc:creator>robspierre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 17:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901536</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Accuracy should always be the goal. On the other hand, a gunshot can be torture too. Details can always be explained in multiple ways.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;At this point, the one danger would be to turn the photos into some sort of TV “smoking gun”. We can learn nothing new at this point–nothing that can change our fundamental knowledge or our clear duty. If, for a instance, a photo of Titan contractors using an Iron Maiden did or did not surface, would it really make any difference?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Thugs will attempt to make any new evidence appear out of context and impeachable. We need to reassert the context at every opportunity, so that the enormity of the crime and the corroborative clarity of the mass of evidence remains in the forefront.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I am now skeptical about the Obama adminstration’s motives. But a political insider I know made an interesting point: whatever you think Obama intended, the effect of his actions has been fatal for the Bushites. The way in which the Administration has rolled out the evidence–with great show of reluctance and repeated rounds of suspense and revelation–could almost be designed to build the context mentioned above while fqanning public indignation. Every week or two, the White House sadly acquiesces to the courts (no political witchhunts here) and piles another neatly interlocking layer of damning truth on the existing heap. At this point, witholding anything, even for a few days, increases the perception that it will be damning. At best (from a Thug point of view), the pictures will confirm what we already know. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;At this point, my source argued, given the steady revelations and the attempts to implicate the Democaratic Congressional leadership, nobody is going to be able to pull an Iran-Contra Commission and immunize away any hope of prosecution. The game is aleady afoot and the play-along-to-get-along set is running out of options. Even a special prosecutor will be a longshot soon–the ordinary Justice Department processes will have to crank into motion and proceed to the inevitable outcome, whether any of the politicos want such an outcome or not.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Accuracy should always be the goal. On the other hand, a gunshot can be torture too. Details can always be explained in multiple ways.</p>
<p>At this point, the one danger would be to turn the photos into some sort of TV “smoking gun”. We can learn nothing new at this point–nothing that can change our fundamental knowledge or our clear duty. If, for a instance, a photo of Titan contractors using an Iron Maiden did or did not surface, would it really make any difference?  </p>
<p>The Thugs will attempt to make any new evidence appear out of context and impeachable. We need to reassert the context at every opportunity, so that the enormity of the crime and the corroborative clarity of the mass of evidence remains in the forefront.</p>
<p>I am now skeptical about the Obama adminstration’s motives. But a political insider I know made an interesting point: whatever you think Obama intended, the effect of his actions has been fatal for the Bushites. The way in which the Administration has rolled out the evidence–with great show of reluctance and repeated rounds of suspense and revelation–could almost be designed to build the context mentioned above while fqanning public indignation. Every week or two, the White House sadly acquiesces to the courts (no political witchhunts here) and piles another neatly interlocking layer of damning truth on the existing heap. At this point, witholding anything, even for a few days, increases the perception that it will be damning. At best (from a Thug point of view), the pictures will confirm what we already know. </p>
<p>At this point, my source argued, given the steady revelations and the attempts to implicate the Democaratic Congressional leadership, nobody is going to be able to pull an Iran-Contra Commission and immunize away any hope of prosecution. The game is aleady afoot and the play-along-to-get-along set is running out of options. Even a special prosecutor will be a longshot soon–the ordinary Justice Department processes will have to crank into motion and proceed to the inevitable outcome, whether any of the politicos want such an outcome or not.</p>
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		<title>By: ChuckinDenton</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901212</link>
		<dc:creator>ChuckinDenton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901212</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Let’s look at the timing of Obama’s attempt at suppression: going to the Middle East to try and open a new chapter in U.S./Middle Eastern relations. As others have noted, it is a hell of a contradiction to have these come out at the same time. I’m not agreeing with Obama-just saying that he may think its up to our own legal system or process (which he seems to want us to ‘move on’ from …) to deal with. Seems to me that he wants his cake and eat it too. This is where I get frustrated: between the art of the possible (compromise) and standing one’s ground. But, I know I’m not the only person here that has the same frustration. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;IOW, what makes Obama think that “looking forward” and trying to get bi-partisan consensus on legislation is gonna be any easier by not or w/o appointing a Special Prosecutor to look into EITs/Torture? Republicans ALREADY want to thwart his agenda while ironically (and happily..) the electorate by and large doesn’t agree with them.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let’s look at the timing of Obama’s attempt at suppression: going to the Middle East to try and open a new chapter in U.S./Middle Eastern relations. As others have noted, it is a hell of a contradiction to have these come out at the same time. I’m not agreeing with Obama-just saying that he may think its up to our own legal system or process (which he seems to want us to ‘move on’ from …) to deal with. Seems to me that he wants his cake and eat it too. This is where I get frustrated: between the art of the possible (compromise) and standing one’s ground. But, I know I’m not the only person here that has the same frustration. </p>
<p>IOW, what makes Obama think that “looking forward” and trying to get bi-partisan consensus on legislation is gonna be any easier by not or w/o appointing a Special Prosecutor to look into EITs/Torture? Republicans ALREADY want to thwart his agenda while ironically (and happily..) the electorate by and large doesn’t agree with them.</p>
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		<title>By: plutonicus</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901210</link>
		<dc:creator>plutonicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901210</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Outrage?&lt;br /&gt;
I agree with Digby.&lt;br /&gt;
That boat has sailed.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Outrage?<br />
I agree with Digby.<br />
That boat has sailed.</p>
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		<title>By: foothillsmike</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901209</link>
		<dc:creator>foothillsmike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901209</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;it’s of the acts inflicting them&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Those would be located together with the videos&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>it’s of the acts inflicting them</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Those would be located together with the videos</p>
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		<title>By: libbyliberal</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901207</link>
		<dc:creator>libbyliberal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901207</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Can of worms … for sure.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Look at Obama playing hardball with the British re blocking their legal mandate to investigate the torture of their citizen.  Though was it Greenwald who says the top UK dogs also don’t want Obama to say anything else, since they are compromised with the “detainee” abominations.  So was it all kabuki theater internationally speaking?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Maybe the Repubs should put up Keifer Jack Bauer and not Gary Sinise for a presidential contender?  American fantasy trust (denial) in covert operational integrity will be restored.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can of worms … for sure.  </p>
<p>Look at Obama playing hardball with the British re blocking their legal mandate to investigate the torture of their citizen.  Though was it Greenwald who says the top UK dogs also don’t want Obama to say anything else, since they are compromised with the “detainee” abominations.  So was it all kabuki theater internationally speaking?</p>
<p>Maybe the Repubs should put up Keifer Jack Bauer and not Gary Sinise for a presidential contender?  American fantasy trust (denial) in covert operational integrity will be restored.</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901203</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901203</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think that the really devastating photos will be pretty clear. They will show the torture actually occurring (just as the iconic Abu Ghraib photos). Only a few photos of a clinical examination of wounds would be telling…absent hospital records accompanying them saying what happened. Lash marks are pretty telling…but most other injuries require a skilled forensic examination to tell whether it was sadistic torture or some other cause.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But I suspect a lot of these pictures are not merely of the injuries…it’s of the acts inflicting them.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the really devastating photos will be pretty clear. They will show the torture actually occurring (just as the iconic Abu Ghraib photos). Only a few photos of a clinical examination of wounds would be telling…absent hospital records accompanying them saying what happened. Lash marks are pretty telling…but most other injuries require a skilled forensic examination to tell whether it was sadistic torture or some other cause.</p>
<p>But I suspect a lot of these pictures are not merely of the injuries…it’s of the acts inflicting them.</p>
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		<title>By: foothillsmike</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901202</link>
		<dc:creator>foothillsmike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901202</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Let the troops get out of the cities in Iraq and Obama back from Egypt.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let the troops get out of the cities in Iraq and Obama back from Egypt.</p>
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		<title>By: eCAHNomics</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901200</link>
		<dc:creator>eCAHNomics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901200</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, the CIA has a long history of toture. So some may be fearful of opening up that really big can of worms. And believe you me, if I were a defendent’s lawyer, I’d try to figure out how to get it part of the trial.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Here’s &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Nosenko&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nosenko&lt;/a&gt;, just one of many examples.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Interrogators from the Soviet Russia division suspected that that Nosenko was a KGB plant and thus Nosenko was seized by CIA officers in Washington and from 1964 to 1967 was held in solitary confinement in a CIA safe house in Clinton, Maryland. Nosenko was also subjected to sensory deprivation and was administered drugs because his CIA handlers believed he was still working in secret for the KGB. Agents also strapped wires to his head, telling him falsely that the device was an electroencephalograph which would allow them to read his mind, while the device was really one that read brainwave patterns. This was a form of psychological intimidation in order to help persuade him to “tell the truth”. He was interrogated for 1,277 days.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the CIA has a long history of toture. So some may be fearful of opening up that really big can of worms. And believe you me, if I were a defendent’s lawyer, I’d try to figure out how to get it part of the trial.</p>
<p>Here’s <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Nosenko" rel="nofollow">Nosenko</a>, just one of many examples.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Interrogators from the Soviet Russia division suspected that that Nosenko was a KGB plant and thus Nosenko was seized by CIA officers in Washington and from 1964 to 1967 was held in solitary confinement in a CIA safe house in Clinton, Maryland. Nosenko was also subjected to sensory deprivation and was administered drugs because his CIA handlers believed he was still working in secret for the KGB. Agents also strapped wires to his head, telling him falsely that the device was an electroencephalograph which would allow them to read his mind, while the device was really one that read brainwave patterns. This was a form of psychological intimidation in order to help persuade him to “tell the truth”. He was interrogated for 1,277 days.</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: libbyliberal</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901198</link>
		<dc:creator>libbyliberal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901198</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Last I heard there is one “bad apple” of a guard still serving time for Abu Ghraib. Not saying he shouldn’t be … but those who say the guilty have been prosecuted.  Really?  Since Rumsfeld’s spin?  America’s “ethical trainwreck” as Leahy calls it. It deserves to be examined and processed.  Mean old hard lefties wanting to dwell on this and not cut extenuating slack for a tragic situation? Sounds like the messenger one more time is hanging fire for acknowledging the seriousness of the problem.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We should &lt;strike&gt;rush&lt;/strike&gt; move on? Systemic corruption and degradation that enabled these atrocities?  I think serious exploration is deserved.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last I heard there is one “bad apple” of a guard still serving time for Abu Ghraib. Not saying he shouldn’t be … but those who say the guilty have been prosecuted.  Really?  Since Rumsfeld’s spin?  America’s “ethical trainwreck” as Leahy calls it. It deserves to be examined and processed.  Mean old hard lefties wanting to dwell on this and not cut extenuating slack for a tragic situation? Sounds like the messenger one more time is hanging fire for acknowledging the seriousness of the problem.</p>
<p>We should <strike>rush</strike> move on? Systemic corruption and degradation that enabled these atrocities?  I think serious exploration is deserved.</p>
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		<title>By: cbl2</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901197</link>
		<dc:creator>cbl2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/05/17/potential-torture-photos-pitfall/#comment-1901197</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;thanks for the response - I’ll go over and have a look.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks for the response &#8211; I’ll go over and have a look.</p>
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