I grew up in a right wing household, so I’m not one of those liberals who’ve never spent any time connecting on an intimate basis with conservatives. I spent my early life hearing conservative talk around the kitchen table, drinking right wing philosophy along with my Nestle’s Quick.(Not long ago I came across a letter my mother had written to her parents in 1960 in which she lamented the fact that John F. Kennedy had stolen the election out from under that fine man Richard Nixon!)
Until the last 15 or 20 years, I felt that I understood conservatism quite well, even as I disagreed with virtually every aspect of it. And while I found much of it repugnant, particularly the racist side which the Southern Strategy embraced, I had never actually feared it. Perhaps that’s because the people I knew might have been right wing, but I had never heard them say that all liberals (blacks/gays/feminists) should be killed. That was new to me.
This rhetoric traveled under the radar through the jungle tom toms of talk radio, which seemed to be using a language I hadn’t heard before — or at least hadn’t heard it used in quite this way. Sure, the turbulent 60s had spawned “love it or leave it,” but this verbal violence was aimed at entire classes of people and most especially anyone who held liberal political views. It looked like this:
When I started blogging six years or so ago, I wrote a lot about this, trying to describe what I was seeing and hoping to understand what had happened to the mainstream conservatism I had grown up with and thought I knew. Until I came across Dave Neiwert’s blog Orcinus, I didn’t even know there was a word for it. Once I read his series of posts called “Rush, Newspeak and Fascism,” I did. It’s called “eliminationism,” which Neiwert defines as “a politics and a culture that shuns dialogue and the democratic exchange of ideas in favor of the pursuit of outright elimination of the opposing side, either through suppression, exile, and ejection, or extermination.”
This new strain of conservatism, then, wasn’t actually conservatism at all, but a hearkening back to old radical strains of American tribalism and imperialism (and some very unpleasant 20th century European political movements) which had all focused on the annihilation of perceived internal enemies. One would have thought that notions of expelling racial groups or committing genocide had been purged from the American body politic sometime around the turn of the last century. But here it was again, all mixed in with white supremacy, fundamentalist religion, nationalism, chauvanism and paranoia — and it was being absorbed into the mainstream of one of the two American political parties.
Neiwert has been studying the American far right for years, writing about the militia movement and listening to the voices of the right as they grew ever more radical, violent and insular. He understands where many of these people come from, he gets what social elements feed into their paranoid sense of victimization. And he documents all of that in his fascinating new book The Eliminationists. But he does something even more valuable than merely observe this social and political phenomenon. He analyzes how this worldview makes its way into mainstream American culture and that is perhaps the most startling and downright chilling revelation in his book. Once you understand how that happens, you will never see Glenn Beck and Michael Savage as benign figures of fun again.
The Eliminationists is an extremely timely book, not because we are on the verge of fascism, which Neiwert patiently explains is not the case. But with the Republican party shrinking to its most ardent true believers and the conservative movement floundering on the shoals of its massive failure at governance, this ugly tendency is both more prevalent and more obvious. Recent shootings in Tennessee and Pennsylvania were shown to have been motivated by the malignant misinformation that’s being passed down through radical right wing groups to the mainstream media. The Tea Party movement features a febrile paranoia about the president, comparing him to Mao, Stalin and Hitler. People are stockpiling guns. On the edge and losing power and prestige, the conservative id is pulsating like a raw nerve.
Most Firedoglake readers know David Neiwert well, from his writing here and elsewhere over the past few years. But I encourage you to buy this book, even if you think you already understand this thesis. By reading the full story all in one place, you will gain an understanding of how this works in a much fuller way. And this is important because the netroots community is the only place in our society where average citizens follow this story in any consistent way. (After all, when the FBI recently validated Neiwert’s observations that all the pieces were in place for a revival of the militia movement of the 1990s, the government was forced to apologize.) We have web sites like Media Matters and Newshounds now, which document the increasingly hysterical rhetoric as it flows through the media bloodstream, but Neiwert’s work is indispensable to understanding where it comes from and the historical and social context from which it arises.
So, with no further ado, please welcome back to Firedoglake, your pal and mine, the author of the great new book The Eliminationists: How Hate Talk Radicalized The American Right, David Neiwert:




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David, Welcome back to the Lake.
Digby, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Wow, Digby, thanks. That’s certainly a lovely writeup. Gives us a lot to chat about, too.
In Champaign-Urbana in the late 60’s early 70’s “activists” would get post cards in the mail from the Minutemen telling them “the crosshairs are on your back”. I think it’s important to stay aware and alert but I’m not convinced it’s much different that it ever has been.
Hey, David–thanks for this, and all your great work.
And, Digby, thanks for hosting.
Thanks, Gregg. Always a pleasure to hang at the Lake.
Thank you both so much for being here, and David congratulations on the fantastic book.
I know you saw evidence of this kind of stuff all over the Teabagger demonstrations — how do you think the two intersect?
Hi Dave – welcome back and thanks for your great new book: as ever, you’ve learned me.
Welcome, Digby! Thanks for being here on a sunny Saturday afternoon.
Big thanks also to Bev for making this and all our Salons happen.
Yeah, Raven, I have a great story in my first book, In God’s Country, about Robert DePugh’s Minutemen. They actually were plotting to blow up a police station in Redmond, WA, back in 1967 and were busted by the FBI.
Very early permutation of the phenomenon we’re seeing now.
Dave – congratulations on this excellent book. Hope it will be widely read and discussed.
hi david – am about halfway done with the book and it is forking scary. the threat of violence towards president obama (and any of us liberals) really has my stomach churning. do you think this will continue to be a growing threat throughout the BO presidency?
Thanks so much digby for this and your great commentary. This sounds like a must read book for me. David, thank you.
People no longer seem to be just drinking the kool-aid, they seem to be swimming within a fishbowl of it. I recently met up with some highly conservative cousins and mentioned the biography of a well known actress who is a friend of my brother’s and who has had a “worldly” shall we say, life.
My cousin’s wife was so offended by mentioning this morally questionable woman she froze with rage. The pleasant meal we were sharing under went this incredible freeze-frost and I thought she would exit the table and my life totally. There was this sense that I should have known not to bring up such an offensive woman and topic. They both went to the top of the intolerance flagpole in a millisecond. Zero tolerance. I had thought they would get a kick out of hearing some inside gossip about a famous acquaintance of the family, but no sirreebob. I was assaulting them morally apparently.
Their little daughter looked on with wide eyes, and I wondered what education she was getting.
I guess since I was one of the people being threatened it’s stuck with me.
What did you find about Posse Comitatus and “The Gun, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord”?
Hello David & congrats.
Congrats, David, on the book! I’ll have my copy next week, and plan to read as soon as I can.
Janet Napolitano’s apology for DHS including veterans in the list of people who could be victimized and co-opted by right-wing extremists was craven. She should have simply pointed to McVeigh and Rudolph, saying, “This is who we are talking about: disaffected vets who’ve been led astray by extremists.”
Apologizing made the problem harder to approach than ever.
Thanks, Digby, for this great writeup, and welcome back, David.
Jane, the teabaggers were basically classic right-wing populism: attack liberal “elites,” claim creeping “socialism,” embrace various forms of conspiracism, and indulge in Ayn Randian producerism. At the Seattle version, the Paul folks were out in force.
What we saw was the larger conservative movement embrace its right-wing populist wing. This is reflected in the media by guys like Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity, who are busy pumping out the far-right Patriot stuff on Fox right now. Limbaugh’s always been there anyway, and movement conservatism has pretty clearly become the Limbaugh National Committee, as Amato likes to put it.
Is there Conservatism without Racism or War on the Working Class?
Granted the Conservatives deny this but I judge them on their actions, and their friends.
Nice to be here.
Dave,
Care to tell us the what hell is going on with Glenn Beck?
Welcome, David! Thanks to you and Bev for this chat.
Digby – howdy, ma’am. As always…
In starting chapter 5, I got a wallop – the suggestion/possibility/outside-chance that Pat Buchanan took one for the team by plundering his own 2000 Reform Party campaign with the selection of a Black woman as his runningmate, thereby inflaming and driving off the “White People’s party” who would eventually run into the arms of 43. Talk about fattening up the joint!
I had completely forgotten about that rich piece of history.
Now that it’s in print and you have had opportunities to discuss it with readers, have you clarified this scenario in your own mind? To me, it’s a mind-blowing “Rovian” gambit, but none of us should ever conclude that Rove doesn’t think 30 very creepy steps ahead.
Oh, and – what a book!
Suzanne, I think the threat to Obama will remain at a pretty high level throughout his presidency, but I have a great deal of confidence in the Secret Service’s ability to protect him, too, because they certainly are aware of the threat level.
The ongoing threat — as that much-vilified DHS report stated clearly — is to the general populace generically, and to law-enforcement officers particularly, from right-wing extremists who act out these beliefs violently either in Jim David Adkisson-type lone-wolf attacks, or Poplawski-type lethal resistance to LEOs.
Adkisson is a classic case: He stated explicitly in his manifesto that he knew he couldn’t reach high-level targets, so he set out to punish the everyday “little people” who empower them.
You help me understand…..I once got almost the same reaction when I brought up the not happily married Bobbitt couple. I had always been mystified. Thanks
In the 80’s the GOP used code words welfare for African American for example.
Today the GOP seems to be more open about what they really mean this is pushing Moderates our way so why is the GOP doing this?
The GOP needs a majority to win an election winning the South and some of the West won’t win them a national election.
The GOP has pollsters to tell them this so just what are they thinking?
Did you see my post today on Beck?
He’s pretty much all-out embraced the Patriot movement’s old memes and is out there pumping them up on mainstream cable TV. You know, I’ve been calling it out, and Media Matters has been picking up on it too. But it’s astonishing that the mainstream press is ignoring this.
Just who are the money men for this movement?
Dave — so great to have you here for this particular book salon. I want to second what Digby says about the usefulness of having the historical context for a lot of this on hand — this book does a thorough job of documenting the escalating rhetoric on the right. And in a way that is blunt enough that even the dimmest media apologist ought to comprehend.
And Digby, as always, great to see you, too.
Thanks, Bev.
What happened to the adage, “Live and let live.” Xenophobia. So anyone different is a “sinner” unworthy of brotherly or sisterly love.
This whole thing about 62% of evangelicals being PRO-torture. Non churchgoers are more against torture. Churchgoers … something scary and identifying with an authoritarian aggressor.
Rove was a genius taking the “wedge” issues and hitting all the churches and uniting them behind him and company and one narrow issue. And Bushco funding churches with government money to buy loyalty. Fierce loyalty of authoritarian followers.
The Posse (which the CS&AL was an exemplar of) were pretty much the founding fathers of today’s Patriot movement. Dan Levitas’ book The Terrorist Next Door is pretty much the definitive history of this.
Sorry:
The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord.
Viruses don’t compromise.
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizens Neiwert, Digby and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Great to have you here Citizen Neiwert and the work you have done for years now in analyzing and exposing the anatomy and physiology of American fascism has earned you a special Norske Medal of Citizenship with an oakleaf cluster. As a person who grew up in a left wing household that educated the children in the history of American fascism as an essential part of the American political character, I am less interested in reading about how this monster works than how we can rid ourselves of it. I believe that the roots of American fascism lie in the history of American slavery, it’s place in the Constitutional history of the country and the ideology that justified it and ultimately led to the nullification crisis and the Civil War. It is my contention that the ideology of the Firebreathers like Henry Clay and John C. Calhoune, the ideology of states rights and racism, survived the Civil War because Radical Reconstrction was ended too early and the unholy alliance between the northern banks and the southern slavocracy in 1877 codified the politics that have defined us and our country until the election of Barak Obama. So how do we put an end, once and for all, to this murderous beast in the heart of our country? What other countries have experienced a fascist takeover and have successfully irradicated it? Unfortunately, the only example I come up with is Germany and it took losing a world war and induring an occupation and forced re-education of the citizenry. (Italy never did get rid of it’s fascist illness as witnessed by post war history and today’s Italian politics.)
So how do we get rid of the fascism that has been part of our country since it’s founding? Serious question Brother David…the only question that matters at this moment.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND REMEMBER THERE IS NO COMPROMISING WITH FASCISM!!
I think part of the problem with Beck and Rush is that the demographic metrics are entirely different between on-air personalities and electoral success. Ten million listeners/viewers is a huge audience, but not an electoral success story. As long as there are sponsors who want to reach an audience with specific views, there will be lunatic personalities on the air. But I don’t think that will ever translate to electoral success.
Does this feed the sense of hopelessness, despair, and victimhood that makes a very small subset lash out violently, do you think?
Maybe Karl fixed a few polls to try and defuse the torture issue?
I would not put it past him.
Dave — do you think in a lot of ways that deal with FOX has emboldened him to take it to the next level of loopy?
I’ve seen an even larger need for ego boo from him (and I didn’t think that was even possible) — so much of his rhetoric in the past seemed geared to getting attention and market share by whatever means possible, but this is a whole new level of rhetoric that seems way more gut level for him.
Yeah, I’m afraid it might be too blunt, but that’s pretty much what I do.
You know, a lot of the civil-rights orgs like the SPLC and the ADL really stay away from discussing the political ramifications of the interplay between far-right extremism and mainstream conservatism because (a) they are non-partisan 501(c)3 orgs, and (b) they work cooperatively with all sides of the political aisle.
But the more I worked this beat, the more I realized it was the undiscussed elephant in the room, just because so many conservatives fly so readily off the handle when you bring it up. (See, e.g., the recent DHS dustup.) And someone needed to say it. So I did.
Moreover, talking about fascism really makes everyone uncomfortable. OTOH, the wingnuts are flinging the term about with abandon now, and it seemed to me time to bring some common sense to the discussion.
I think the blunt part is a really good thing. Far too many people flinch away from the rhetoric’s implications if they land on crazy ears, but they need to really sit down and think about it — hard. Because, as you’ve documented both in the book and in posts the last few years, it’s only getting worse. And if it keeps getting spewed out unchecked, it will continue to get worse…
Dave, the distinctions you’ve drawn between proto-fascism and para-fascism and your definitions for both seem very clear and powerful.
Many progressives I know are uncomfortable using the “f” word to define the values, groups, and people you clearly identify as proto-fascist. Or to use the “f” word at all.
[Though we’ve got an alternative to the “f” word in describing our political economy, “corporatist” just has too many syllables. It doesn’t seem to describe the personal values of the folks you describe.]
Would you have any suggestions on how progressives best reclaim the definitions you advance – “f” word and all – as legitimate terms of conceptual discussions? Maybe it’s just my eco-fixation, but leaving a powerful heuristic tool to one side seems wasteful to me.
Apologies in advance if I’ve violated any Godwin corollaries here… *g*
A lot of them are lesser-known rich people — real-estate magnates, construction barons, small industrial owners. We saw a lot of money flowing into the Patriot movement in the ’90s from the development industry in western Washington, who used the environmental backlash inherent in the militias as a way to wage war on environmentalists without being directly involved.
David,
You talk a bit about liberal attitudes in the book and how we may be playing into this. Can you expand a bit on that for us?
Where do you fit figures like Nixon, Reagan, Gingrich, Delay, and Bush into the rise of eliminationists? I see each as enabling more and more extreme views. Nixon legitimized racism under the more benign sounding Southern Strategy. Reagan made non-think slogans and partisanship fashionable. Gingrich took it the level of hyper-partisanship and white noise. Delay made it pay everyday every way. And Bush capped it off, modern conservatism in its purist form: Southern, white, religious right, with thought never rising higher than the gut.
Any studies of ex Elinimantionists, ex Nazis whatever, what made them change their ways are there any common factors?
How did EX Eliminationists view their relationship with God family, job political views both before and after?
Is there Anything that triggers such a switch? Good economic times? Finding Personal Fulfillment, working with their victims/seeing the cost of what they do? a brush with the law?
Maybe so. God knows what is being said. All the bizarre Obama buzz is evidence. And Palin really revealed the dark underside of the righteous non-urbanites.
There is something pathological about how of loyalty, generosity and honesty, there is something super-seductive about “loyalty” vastly outweighing the other two. Holy Rollers seem similar to Crips and Bloods in that ferocity. Group think. Finding a scapegoat as a common denominator. People admired how Bush would be gushing validation as a crony was taking his “perp walk”. Stand by your team. Even when they are defending the indefensible like torture!
The part of their conversation that continues to shock me…like Savage, Ingraham, Hannity….they have no kind words and then paint with the most broad stroke like “socialists” for everyone who doesn’t agree. Why do they not bore themselves? And why do they enjoy being so mean?
Well, remember, back when he was on CNN he had a whole segment devoted to him openly embracing the John Birch Society. I think that’s where he’s coming from on this. Remember that there’s a long and historic connection between Birchers and Mormonism.
Doesn’t seem too blunt to me: language is the tool of thought.
Norske… this is the key problem in this country – we have an willfully ignorant populace that refuses to think or learn and is bigoted.
The added danger is when these morons are organized especially around a hate them and led by an “intelligent” person (such as Rove) who will manipulate the bigots and get them to identify with a larger group and then you have not random scattered idiots and bigots, but a movement that has a life all its own.
It’s either education (unlikely) or eradication (unlikely) or succession (unlikely).
I’m reading “Nixonland” right now and calling dems “socialists” is nothing new.
I was never certain if that Bircher segment was where he was at a gut level, or his audition tape for the FOX deal. *g*
Sounds like a potential serial killer imagining violence, talking about it, acting on it in small ways and then Boom.
People act like groups and vice a versa sometimes.
Thanks. I guess that’s part of the bore. A word that has been around forever and means nothing.
Same as “fascism”? :)
What is going on with the excessive “religiosity” going on in the Air Force, especially. Using religious exceptionalism to demonize the enemy? To gird young minds to become efficient, bravado-automatic soldiers, demonization is fostered. Desensitization. Questioning of authority is punished.
But this phenomenon is not just military. Blue line among cops. Group think. Group exceptionalism.
Good point they are like gangs I wonder what they need to escape the gang? Sarah is not a minority deprived of economic activity although she certainly is not well educated.
Is a liberal education the key to deprogramming them?
Naw George Will mangles the Classics as the Doonesbury cartoon used to show.
More Critical Thinking perhaps is needed.
Yeah, that’s the part that seems not to be very popular. [g]
Basically, it’s important to understand that people on the far right believe, as do most liberals, that they actually occupy the moral high ground — that they are doing the right thing, and that their hearts are pure, etc. It’s a very human thing.
But in fact what marks them as fundamentally authoritarian is the extent to which this becomes really marked black-and-white Manichean dualism. It’s what drives them to such radical depths. They genuinely see themselves as people engaged in a heroic endeavor. But the whole dynamic of heroism relies, inevitably, on creating an enemy. And so we see time and again the Right concoct new enemies when others fade away.
But liberals play into this dynamic, too, by their own embrace of the ethos of heroism. We want to see ourselves as heroic. But in the process, we do the enemy-creating too.
So my argument is that we need to let go of the heroic. We need to see the people aligned against us not as the demonic enemy but as human beings.
Otherwise, we’re doomed to keep this heroic dragon-chasing-its-own-tail dynamic alive.
I’m not talking about compromising. I’m talking about letting go of our own hubris and trying to engage the people who’ve declared themselves our enemies as people. Some of them, of course, are lost. But not all of them are. And I think pursuing that kind of course is more of a long-term solution.
“soldiers” are in the Army, not the Air Force.
Thanks, Kirk. Yeah, I even discuss Godwin in the book, because it’s basically a massive violation of it.
I second that why doesn’t the army screen people for racism, especially for sensitive jobs and the officers?
The Weatherpeople a case in point.
Screen them “for” racism? Putting people in the position to have to try to kill other people almost guarantees some form of dehumanization of the “enemy”.
Yes, the politics of resentment of which Nixon was the master are very much the wellspring of this, because that is what movement conservatism has been about. And its raw quest for power is the reason it metastasized into the malign entity we see today — particularly its eagerness to embrace the far right, for whom resentment is their meat and potatoes.
Wow. How to deprogram them? Where to begin. What is the answer. You think of all those vast mega-churchgoers grooving on the same talking points. Being stroked for being “exceptional”, ego so hungry to hear that. Adrenalin rush bonding of mutual hatred. Pleasing an authority.
Alice Miller said patriarchal religiosty of Germany made things ripe for Hitler. Children were to be over-controlled and punished. They grow up without experience of autonomy. Ripe for cult think and to rob their children of freedom, too.
And bond with an ego-sickened aggressor, who sounds like a parent ego state, but is really coming from the narcissistic child ego state mocking the parent ego state in that critical, know it all tone. (Eric Berne called it “the pig parent” child ego state.) Rush, W, McCain speak from their “pig parent” and people swoon with appreciation. A familiar thrall they grew up with, probably.
And…voila!…Sarah Palin’s crowds and their lovely signage. Coincidence? I think not.
They seem to hate the different and anyone with Empathy.
We become like them when we attack them even when we just defend ourselves.
I’m all for defending ourselves and attacking I got tired of watching Dems just give up the entire Bush Presidency. Thankfully so far we have not gone off the deep end like they have.
FDR, Stalin, Hitler all emerged during the Great Depression I wonder which way the country will go this time?
I think we are at our best when we talk about new ideas and how we want to shape the future.
Im sorry I have not read the book, so can you explain more about the resentment? I usually call it contempt. The resentment is pervasive.
Great work, David! Thanks for dropping by!
Yeah, just like the teabaggers’ tantrums weren’t a coincidence, either.
The chilling thing about this is watching Fox News openly embrace it. You know, it’s been bad enough seeing how right-wing extremism talk spreads through the Internet. Seeing an entire cable network adopt it is deeply disturbing. That’s a big fricking megaphone.
I really appreciated your making that explicit. Your descriptions of how the Left has overused that term are spot-on (eternity is driving half of I-5 with well meaning activists snarling “fascist” at nearly evry gas station sign… sigh.)
I know I’m perseverating here, and this may well be an unanswerable question, but…
guess I’m still wondering if you have any ideas or suggestions about how progressives can reclaim the “f” word as used in the definitions you set forth?
‘Cause those concepts are such good tools for describing specific political constellations we’re grappling with, I’m hoping folks won’t be slow to pick them up…..
Respectfully, David, I believe we already tried that.
It was called “The 90s”.
To serve the cause of meeting people who hate us on gentler ground we swallowed hard and gave up NAFTA, GATT, welfare, DOMA, gun control, Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell, banking regulations and a dozen other really vital issues.
We delivered balanced budgets and surpluses.
And for our troubles we got seven years of witch hunts, impeachment, Bush/Cheney and the rise of the Gingrich/Falwell/Limbaugh Right.
I’m talking mostly about white resentment, which (if you’ve read Nixonland) is really about defending white privilege. The fear of difference, the eagerness to attack nonconformity, the paranoia that is largely a projection of their own dark tendencies. That sort of thing.
So the army in war creates a dehumanizing vibe that may later become Eliminationist?
I wonder if therapy might help afterwords or even just explaining it to the troops about what might happen so they can guard against it happening?
OK, assuming all that’s true, and I think it is, what works? When someone sees things in black and white, it’s been my experience that they simply don’t want to see the grays, or to admit that there are times when things really aren’t so simple.
[actually a question for the forum at large, BTW]
digby, a great write up, david, GREAT to see you here again
I have been saying for quite some time, the root for what happened to this country was the fall of the fairness doctrine and allowing media ownership the write to consolidate
to me it’s a shame obama took off the table “the fairness doctrine” and I WISH he would just break ownership back into itsy bitsy pieces
could you imagine if abc radio were forced to braodcast randi rhodes or tom hartmann directly behind rush limaugh?
rush would loose any sponsorship, his influence would be reduced to nothing
So its how kids are raised we have to change? We can’t fix the adults like AA?
Whew, it was one of the big issues with Nam. Home and on the street in about 48 hours and you were on your own. I think they have it together better now but there is plenty of room for improvement. Also, IMHO, they are trained WAY better than we were.
I think AA and 12 step programs is a great counter-culture for xenophobia and feelings of alienation in society (which is why toxic or fantasy bonding probably happens so easily, based on conditional rules of thinking and feeling). People have a safe forum to share who they are and those programs are based on that “live and let live” respect. We are all imperfect humans to start out with it professes. Principal above ego and personality. They have a group-think and identity, but that bonding seems to be working and gives me hope in spreading true spiritual awareness and communication, instead of “I’m okay and you are going to hell, undoubtedly” exceptionalism in more traditional “villages”.
Did you see the kids in those Palin crowd videos, how they were mimicking the ugliness of the parents in front of the cameras. They didn’t make that up. They had the confidence from watching that kind of bile acting out in their parents.
I’ve read your work for years at Orcinus. I bought the book the day it came out. It’s outstanding. Thank you, David, for your work and for keeping tabs on these wackos.
You’re talking about compromising, but I’m not talking about that. I don’t believe in giving a damned inch on my beliefs, actually.
Moreover, there are some fundamentally bad people we’re dealing with here — particularly at the leadership level — too, and I don’t think we should beat around the bush about that.
But I don’t see the people who’ve fallen under their sway as bad people. I see them as misguided, mostly. I try to deal with them as people — recognizing my chances of persuading them to think otherwise are slim. But they inevitably find it harder to demonize you when you engage them honestly.
And I don’t think it’s helpful to trumpet our moral superiority, either. Hubris can be fatal.
Mostly I’m talking about how we engage people in one-on-one human encounters. You know, one of the worst things about engaging conservatives is that they immediately pigeonhole you and then talk to you like you’re a stereotype and not a person. And I’ve seen liberals do it when the situations are reversed. It’s a never-ending, destructive dynamic.
I’ve been thinking about this subject recently. Thanks for the book review. I just ordered it from my local book store.
Sarah came out of Nowhere someone flipped a switch and got Sarah mega crowds because nobody had heard her words before let alone knew who she was.
Pavlov has been training some more dogs it seems. Being moderate did not help McCain
Sarah’s Eliminationist message I’m sure hurt McCain with moderates more than it helped get out the Eliminiationist vote for McCain.
Losing more votes than you get just doesn’t make sense. They are betting for Obama to fail.
Of course if that happens the Money Men backing them will lose even more than they already have.
There is no logic to their plans that I can see.
And there is what evidence that AA works? (sorry if that is somewhat OT)
I know many people in recovery. And all those forums around the globe are people getting together, bonding not in fear but in hope of turning their own problems around and needing each other to learn from and get and give support to and from. The more communication, honest, the more sensitization and empathy fostered.
You disagree about the 12-step programs?
Do you think that there is a symbiotic relationship between the mainstream media and eliminationist media figures? A sort of ratchet effect where the MSM gives them a platform and a certain respectability which sanctions their extremism and allows it to become more extreme.
You want to see white resentment just read the comment sections of stories in the AZcentral if it has to do with Sheriff Joe, taxes, guns, and illegals. These folks see the white world crumbling aound them and it is the brown person fault.
Yes, I describe it in the book — it’s what Chip Berlet calls “the transmission belt.” Essentially ideas and memes get a workout on the extremist right, where they find out which ones create the most traction within that echo chamber. Then the persistent, successful memes get transmitted out by figures like Limbaugh and Coulter and Savage and Dobbs, who repackage them for mainstream consumption, but keep the core meme intact.
Combating Culture Shock of coming back to America helps? Sounds like an idea better training I’m sure helps too.
I bet the GOP draft dodgers are modeling their anti Obama movement expecting the troops to be in the same condition as after Viet Nam.
If the troops are better trained and better cared for than your generation was Bwahahaha!
Then all those troops who gave to Obama will not likely be a one time fluke.
Sure the GOP racists will get some but their dreams for a big movement materializing as the troops are brought home are doomed! Doomed! I say
p.s. I think, speaking of recovery from addictions, this country had a bad case of codependency with the alcoholic personalities of Bush and Cheney, et al. They say Laura Bush, Condi, Gonzalez kept the focus off the welfare of the country and the needs of the alcoholic personality they were enthralled to. They kept the dysfunctional system going, rather than not supporting a corrupt status quo. I fear Obama has that same kind of stubborn codependence sometimes …. getting lost among the trees of the dysfunctional status quo and not rejecting the “forest” of wrongheadedness. Re banks. Re military.
What I learned in my personal journey into sobriety is that half the people that quit do so on their own. It is not possible to determine the efficacy of programs that are “anonymous” so it’s hard to say. The “self-help” movement has certainly helped people, notably Vietnam Vets who pioneered the rap groups. What I personally disagree with in AA is the notion that people are helpless and has to “surrender to a higher power”.
Well,have to go. Have fun discussing the crazy people.
Thanks David and Digby for this forum. This sounds like an interesting, albeit disturbing, book.
Yep.
I’m working on a post about Sheriff Joe and his neo-Nazi pals right now.
Greetings, David, Digby, and all-
About 13 years ago I attended a militia gathering in N. FL. Some interesting sociology there-the quote of the day was this:
”Timothy McVeigh is the Nathan Hale of the next American Revolution.”
Sounds like, as GregB said one day, that the McVeigh wing of the GOP is getting the band back together.
Yeah, I get that. one thing about being part of a right wing family is that you come to understand that it is more than politics. There’s a human element that’s easy to ignore.
My dad, for instance, is a hard core military guy who hasn’t picked up a gun in 40 years, even to hunt. He’s an animal lover, adopting every stray cat and dog in the neighborhood. Not that he wouldn’t defend the 2nd amendment to his dying day.
It’s complicated.
Yes, and it can slip into its own righteous group think. But I think the “helplessness” thing is a way of going beyond ego-think. Weakened self-esteems that are so damaged in some people, like the hate-mongerers and followers, that they can not cop to ever being wrong. Cannot assume guilt or responsibility they are so damaged. Growing up maybe their “right to be wrong” was exploited and as adults they cannot abide the idea of being wrong so they never take an honest “inventory” (12 step language) of themselves, the good, the bad, and the ugly. They are so rejecting of themselves subconsciously, can’t own it, and thus project it onto others to try to escape. They punish others for what they cannot accept. Like with Hitler, his father hated himself and was ashamed of being part Jewish. So son Hitler projected that hatred outward onto the Jewish race.
Bingo. That’s the same issue I have with it.
Are Eliminationists Drunks, dry drunks, have addiction problems? Bush as a Drunk or a Problem gambler is something I’ve noted here often I have not studied the Eliminationists much to make that judgment about them though.
Speaking of which, David, your work at C&L is consistently outstanding.
I saw the viedeo with Joe and those boys. Pretty sick but Joe has an ego that no hat can fit.
My Sister with the Social Work degree says AA helps whites who already have a strong religious background.
Other groups its less effective still some kind of therapy I’m sure would help one size fits all won’t work for everyone.
I’m not really sure what works, since the models are few and far between.
What I do know is what we can do in an ethically consistent way: Stand up to them.
When this kind of talk gets out, stand up. Write letters, make calls, organize protests or boycotts — do whatever you can do to make it known that eliminationist hate speech is never acceptable. Not as comedy, not as “entertaining” commentary, not as serious rhetoric.
We live in a free-speech society. We have to defend those free-speech rights most especially by standing up to the very people and organizations whose entire existence is dedicated to depriving other people of their rights. And we stand up to their hate speech by, first, pointing it out, and second, raising it as an issue, and finally by taking action on it as an issue.
This isn’t an attempt to deprive anyone else of their free-speech rights. It is simply engaging in our own free-speech rights to stand up to hateful speech whose purpose and effect is in fact to deprive others of their rights.
When I first read the post I almost wrote that we grew up in the same family. Mine were DuPage County Republicans, My grandfather told me Joe Mc Carthy died of a broken heart. My old man was a WWII and Korea combat vet. He ended his life much as you describe. He loved critters and we even mixed his ashes with his beloved black lab when we buried him in the National Cemetery in Phoenix. The only thing that was interesting about his politics was that he allowed that I had earned the right to be in the VVAW when I came home.
“I can tell your future
just look what’s in your hand”
Dead
Playin in the Band
I did every drug known to man, drank for 30 years and I stopped it all in one day.
A tiny suggestion about something those of us who can spare a few bucks can do to (peacefully) eliminate the “eliminationists”: Buy multiple copies of books like Dave’s and give them as gifts to your conservative relatives and co-workers. Not only does it help support the work of progressive authors and boost their rankings on best-seller lists, but it has the potential to gradually shift the public discourse. Or at least counteract some of the cr*p Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity and others on Faux News get paid millions to smear across the American landscape. I believe many “conservatives”–like Digby’s relatives, and some of mine–would be horrified to see their fave TV hosts and militant allies unmasked and revealed as the vicious, fascistic hate-mongers that they are.
I swear I am NOT shilling for Dave or his publisher. I do this all the time for authors of progressive books, often inspired by visits to on-line book salons like this one. (Can’t wait for your first book, Digby!) When I take the “extras” to work and leave them in the lunchroom as freebies, they are all scooped up within minutes. And almost always, someone I didn’t previously know comes sheepishly into my office for a very thoughtful discussion . . .
I meant to write: “They say Laura Bush, Condi, Gonzalez kept the focus off the welfare of the country and TOTALLY ON the needs of the alcoholic personality they were enthralled to.” People become addicted to people who are unpredictable and thus exciting and enthralling. Sometimes nice, sometimes irrationally angry. Look at McCain. His unpredictability…. nice sometimes, angry the next… enthralled the press. Like playing a slot machine.. waiting to see which will appear, Dr. J or Mr. Hyde. People love watching Simon Cowell to see him offer that millisecond of warmth or near warmth, or to enjoy him unleashing his nastiness, maybe that they wish they could do more freely?
Eliminationists … might be its own addiction. Addicted to rage, projecting rage onto scapegoates. Lots of addictions floating around out there and co-addictions. Pain and Fear are the roots. Addictions are the symptoms from those roots.
Re the “higher power” deal … that is a philosophical challenge for some in the programs. But I think it is beyond religiosity, the “higher power” is a replacement for the recovering wounded “inner children” of the members, and is to be regarded as an “unconditionally loving parent figure or image.” I think it works in many cases. Replaces the person’s critical ego voice or memory of a conditionally loving or not so loving historical parent, with the idea of a super-parent bestowing love. IMHO.
http://radio.about.com/b/2009/…..-radio.htm
Any numbers on how ClearChannel is really doing? Mitt Romney’s Bain Capital bought them. If Mitt Runs again having Rush in his pocket seems like a campaign finance violation.
Also NewsCorp home of Glen Beck has money trouble to the banks are to poor to refinance losers right now.
Are the banks ignoring this to avoid having the losses on their books?
The banks should as their stock declines be asking for more collateral on their loans.
I’m just looking at financially crippling the jerks:)
Re the “higher power” deal
I yield to your experience. I’ve been lucky.
Next Idea to Cripple the Eliminationists
Why should any Hispanic be forced to pay for CNN with Lou Dobbs or Fox New just because they want to watch basic cable?
What ever happened to free markets?
How many Hispanics have cable? Take us away we can cripple the Right Wing hate machine.
It is terribly complicated. Fortunately, my Goldwaterite father had an epiphany forced upon him in 1981: He was an air traffic controller. Still conservative as hell (you should see the e-mails) but now votes Democrat and far more open to liberal arguments than he ever was before.
But I have plenty of right-wing friends still. The thing to realize is that you don’t have to compromise your beliefs one whit to make inroads. What you have to do is demonstrate that your beliefs have integrity, that you have moral and ethical reasons behind them, and that your firmness in them is not a product of blind ideology but thoughtful common sense.
I’ve found this true when talking about forestry issues with loggers, or abortion with religious True Believers, or whatever the issue I’m engaging them on. There are common-sense ways of framing your beliefs that sound like common sense to them, too. You may not win the argument, but you win their respect. And that’s half the battle.
Ooooh, I love that comment!
[Dude, the check’s in the mail.] [jk!]
Dave, thanks for all your great work. I look forward to buying and reading the book.
Do we have any polls saying that the Tea Baggers with their guns are winning? Do we have any polls that say that since the Tea Baggers came on the scene that some people are now afraid to talk about certain topics in openly?
One Day I want Lefties to come up with questions for National Polls.
Still here, Spudboy? I’ve just dropped in as I’ve had a fairly busy day.
It has always surprised me that Limbaugh’s racism has been quite blatant over the years, yet never commented upon by the “Mainstream” I am as FDL’s know, fetish object of the morbidly obese, drug-addicted clsoet queen, thanks to this essay
http://www.latimes.com/news/op…..ion-center
which everyone cites yet nex-to-no-one has actually read.
I yield to your recovery. :) I am someone who really can talk a good talk. As for walking the walk … not as adept. I favor the co-addict side of the street.
I loved your book Dave! Great discussion.
I have problems even trying to discuss what racism is with “teabag party” sorts, and there are many of them here in Texas. They just draw a line and say there is no problem with racism in their group because they never judge anyone by skin color… and call me racist for even bringing it up.
They have no clue how they transmit the extreme messages. The signage should be so obvious. And they see no problem tolerating it in their midst.
Didn’t the DFHs break into the collective ego of American “exceptionals” and will henceforth be in their line of fire, even as baby boomer libruls? Viet Nam protesting was a sea change in the group-think of America. Eckhart Tolle actually brings this up in his last book, I am forgetting the name. The one Oprah got so involved with. But I think that there is a residue of resentment at the DFHs for playing messenger that America is NOT fantasy-perfect and golden. And people are still reeling from their indignation over that sea change.
Thanks, David and Digby. Looking forward to reading the book.
The Southern Poverty Law Center says that there are 926 active hate groups in the US and believe me, they are not all in the south.
Since the right wing always needs an “enemy” what do you suppose they would do if we all decided to agree with them? What would they do then?
What I find especially galling is that thanks to the “Mainstream” Media’s insistence of an absolute left/right divide postions outside this death-grip matrix have nowhere to go.
I, for instance have had it with Obama, as my latest FaBlog post makes clear.
But this doesn’t make meas one with Newt Gingrich — though that’s the only option we’ve all been given.
David, do you see any possibility of an improvised WMD in the hands of American radicals? Maybe chemicals, or radiological weapons?
It is interesting listening to Ron Reagan radio program on air america. He has a nice way with the right (and left) but makes his progressive points assertively, nonetheless. The righties call in and have a soft spot for him because they adored his father, and it is a link they have to him, despite his ideology, and he often quite gently communicates some strong stuff they are willing to hear or maybe half-hear with civility. FWIW
David,
Thanks so much for being here. this has been great.
Til we meet again!
cheers — d
What about all the gun ammunition being bought out, especially out in California. That is disturbing in itself.
Bye Dave, Digby nice talk:)
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
David, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us and discussing your new book.
Digby, Thank you very much for Hosting this great Book Salon,
Everyone, this is a must read book, if you haven’t bought it yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
Link for Dav’e book.
I think most of the people hoarding ammo already have enough to raise whatever hell they want, and are just adding to existing stockpiles. I’d rather have a sane neighbor with 10k rounds than a nutcase with one.
to RonD:
Well, we’ve already had William Krar and his cyanide bomb, and there have been numerous cases of ricin turning up in the hands of right-wing extremists. Fortunately, no one’s ever actually managed to unleash any of this. But there’s no doubt they’re fascinated by this stuff, and there are probably some lone wolves out there now trying to figure out a way.
If it’s any consolation, they usually blow themselves up or poison themselves in some way.
OTOH, it’s worth remembering that the anthrax killer case has never been successfully closed. The right-wing motives of that perp are still fairly clear. So there’s at least one example of them being successful.
Darn it. I missed an interesting thread. Thanks for being here David and for writing this important book!
One thing about Beck is….he was somewhat rational about George Bush prior to the November 2008 election. He knew Bush was to blame for almost everything that happened over the course of those 8 years. Then…..Barack Obama won the election and the next day, Beck changed his tune very quickly and immediately (without saying it!) wanted the black man out. Very scary to me. Since then, he’s been drumming up the right wing whackos of our nation and though he hasn’t said it out loud yet (other wingers like Bachmann have!)…he is thinking that some of his listeners do turn violent against the “Obama liberals” or Obama himself. Very frightening. Beck is almost psychotic at times on his radio show.
One thing about the Left….if we have delusions about something it’s very rare that we form armed militias to take out the right. The Weathermen, yes they were violent, but other than that, we take to the streets to protest, make phone calls, write letters…to get attention. Jees.
Hey, thanks, everyone. It’s been a blast, as always.
Yeah, I remember wondering during the anthrax attacks, based on target selection, what the odds were that the attacker was a subscriber to The Limbaugh Letter.
David, Digby, the best of all possible weekends to you both.
Bye Dave – so good to see you here. Thanks again for this book and your watchful eye.
Bye Digby and Bev – thank you both.
I’m sure it’s a great book, but I’m afraid that only the most inanimate of humans could have missed the sideshow that America’s rightwing nutjobs have made of talk radio (and talk itself..). I wish I was unaware enough to have to read about how it was done, but I actually had to live through this puke, so I’ll pass***.
I’m sure they’re radicalized (if by radicalized you also include mesmerized). One example of this is the profound impact on the environment that their destructive letting of tea bags had. All twelve of them. Substitute marginalized for radicalized as necessary.
Enjoy.
***Digby reminds us that we get one step closer to waterboarding Rush Limbaugh every time somebody buys a copy (loosely paraphrased)
What Dave calls eliminationism is what I more properly refer to as Dominionism or Christian Reconstructionism. They want to eliminate everybody who isn’t of their perverse minority sect. The fact that Bush et.al. were compliant and engaged with this same Christian Taliban (bibles for Afghanistan anybody???) is well known. Praying sessions were probably scheduled right before, and immediately after the waterboarding. I don’t have the schedule for same, just the strong remembrance of seemingly important this was to these people. Ashcroft on guitar…take it away….
Enjoy.
Check THIS out:
Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05…..orers.html
New brown shirts for America?
I’ve been curious about the recently reported Saudi Arabian “reprogramming” resort transforming ?????? ex-terrorists. Wonder about the content and manner of the reprogramming; wonder how successful it is. Wonder if American govt, Obama, etc. have considered any reprogramming efforts with the “detainees”. But I can imagine the detainees saying, screw you. Besides, the Republicans would surely resist any efforts to expend resources on that kind of strategy, considering they’re usually against any form of prison rehab programs.
Have just gotten American History X with Edward Norton about his converstion from white supremacist values/actions etc. and subsequent effort to save his younger brother from that world. Am anxious to view it in the context of our guest’s book and work, and Digby’s fabulous introductory analysis.
Wish I were up to reading the book, but am very grateful for the commentary here at FDL on this and many other critical issues facing us with our ongoing impotence to make a difference.
Blessings to all
Not to disagree with Dave N.’s central thesis, but I have to wonder if Glen Beck is not just a *complete* clown/opportunist who “retooled” quickly after the election, so as to follow Rush down the golden path to millions. He’s not at all smart or funny or interesting, just an idiotic and soon-to-be-rich purveyor of hate and inciter of violence . . .
Chilling… “hey, have you earned your torture badge, yet?” “Naw, I did walling but still have to work on my waterboarding technique.”
damn good show .. thanks david .. digby ..et al …
Sounds alot like Hannity to me. I have only seen Beck maybe 2, 3 times…sort of passing through. He looks like a sissy, dolt to me, and I am at a loss to find any charm. Got any ideas?
But liberals play into this dynamic, too, by their own embrace of the ethos of heroism. We want to see ourselves as heroic. But in the process, we do the enemy-creating too.
So my argument is that we need to let go of the heroic. We need to see the people aligned against us not as the demonic enemy but as human beings.
Otherwise, we’re doomed to keep this heroic dragon-chasing-its-own-tail dynamic alive.
I’m not talking about compromising. I’m talking about letting go of our own hubris and trying to engage the people who’ve declared themselves our enemies as people. Some of them, of course, are lost. But not all of them are. And I think pursuing that kind of course is more of a long-term solution.
Thanks so much Dave for this perspective.
I’m trying to engage my conservative brother-in-law, of whom I am most fond, but I cannot comprehend the implications of his positions that he’s struggling to articulate. When I ask him for the functional implications of any of his principles, he has no response, (as of yet)and I find myself in the horrid trap you’ve so brilliantly stated above.
I despise those parts of me that are saturated with hubris, intolerance and
enemy creating.
I grieve over the occasional sophomoric pandering found here at FDL that epitomizes the enemy creating, loathing dynamic you describe. I thank God that that is not the only material found here, but I don’t need to read that the c..p. I desperately need to read the reasoned, rational, ethical thinking that both exposes the insane and offers positive, functional routes for corrective actions. I desperately need that to help me find a way out of my moral dilemma to be a righteous one who seeks to affirm the humanity of “my enemies” and the knee jerk group think of those who are also eliminationists as well. Lord have mercy.
Thanks Dave, Digby, Jane, and Christy/ Blessings to all
Wow! What a great writeup and set of comments. I can’t wait to get Dave’s book.
Sorry I missed being here.
in response to Marchan1940
I was working at a right wing echo chamber eight months ago, and I am still punchy. Trying to swing a BFH hard enough to start a crack to let the light in for these Sad Sacs does get frustrating. In respect to long
term solutions, we should be slow to sophmoric hubris. The people we are
talking about here though are wanna-be Republicans, that believe this country had, and has a manifest destiny, they are victimized by the very pary they vote for, and they usually never served a day in the Military,
or if they did, they were armchair warriors, or just plain old boy net-
work – world owes me a living, I’ll take your inventory Israel, forget
what we did to our Native Americans. They want simplistic answers!
It is easy for all of us to assume that our own premises and conclusions are well-founded in fact and our motives are pure while our political opposites have nothing of value to listen to. But it would be a mistake.
I have spent 40 years debating John Birch Society members. Like any large organization it is composed of different types of people, and, yes, there is a percentage which may fairly be described as “wackos” (as is the case in left-wing groups too). But there are also some very principled and thoughtful people who just don’t understand how liberals can review available data and come to conclusions different from those of the JBS.
Interestingly, the most potent critics of the extreme right have NEVER been “the usual suspects”, i.e. it has never been ADL or SPLC or People For The American Way, or from any other assorted liberal organizations. Instead, it has come from principled conservatives.
It might be helpful to discover, for example, that even J. Edgar Hoover and senior officials within the Bureau’s Domestic Intelligence Division described Robert Welch and the Birch Society in FBI memos as “extremist”. “irrational”, “irresponsible”, “lunatic fringe” and “fanatics”.
Those persons in this thread that immediately resort to the notion that they are discussing “fascists” or “fascism” are just as irresponsible and irrational as the objects of their bile — and such lowest-common-denominator reasoning will always undermine a principled critique.
For anyone interested in my reports concerning the extreme right, see:
http://ernie1241/googlepages.com/home
We’re not fascist? What about the bailouts? What about the Healthcare debacle, whatever comes out of the sausage press isn’t going to be anything but fascist. Government and Business in full coitus and you know who’s going to get screwed…