Mario Cuomo (h/t gilly youner)
Once again, Notre Dame finds itself in the midst of a battle over purity going on in the Catholic church. The Vatican, encouraged by lay and clergy American rightwingers, have been going after alleged liberals in seminaries via episcopal pressure on faculty members and Vatican visits, in religious orders (especially those run by women), and in Catholic colleges.
Behind the scenes at the last couple of meetings of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, the bishops have been having some very brutal battles over how vigorous a public stance they should take on things like abortion and communion practices of politicians. Thus far, the hardliners have been thwarted in getting the USCCB to go hard right, and they are getting more and more restless.
One recent piece of this battle was Randall Terry using former St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke (now head of the Vatican’s supreme court) to slam American bishops like DC’s McCarrick and LA’s Mahoney for not being hardline enough in fighting for a sufficiently pure catholicism.
This is not new.
Back in 1984, then-NY Governor Mario Cuomo gave a speech to the Theology Department at Notre Dame University: Religious Belief and Public Morality. Those who criticize Notre Dame for inviting President Obama to be their commencement speaker like Chicago’s Cardinal George might want to go back and take a look at Cuomo’s remarks.
The issue, said Cuomo, is not over what Catholics believe, but how that gets translated into political action:
It has been argued that the failure to endorse a legal ban on abortions is equivalent to refusing to support the cause of abolition before the Civil War. This analogy has been advanced by bishops of my own state.
But the truth of the matter is, as I’m sure you know, few, if any, Catholic bishops spoke for abolition in the years before the Civil War. And it wasn’t, I believe, that the bishops endorsed the idea of some humans owning and exploiting other humans. Not at all. Pope Gregory XVI, in 1840, had condemned the slave trade. Instead it was a practical political judgment that the bishops made. And they weren’t hypocrites; they were realists. . . They concluded that under the circumstances arguing for a constitutional amendment against slavery would do more harm than good, so they were silent — as they have been, generally, in recent years, on the question of birth control, and as the Church has been on even more controversial issues in the past, even ones that dealt with life and death.
Now, what is relevant to this discussion is that the bishops were making judgments about translating Catholic teaching into public policy, not about the moral validity of the teachings. In so doing they grappled with the unique political complexities of their time. The decision they made to remain silent on a constitutional amendment to abolish slavery or on the repeal of the Fugitive Slave Law wasn’t a mark of their moral indifference. It was a measured attempt to balance moral truths against political realities. Their decision reflected their sense of complexity, not their diffidence. And as history reveals, Lincoln behaved with similar discretion.
Now, the parallel I want to draw here is not between or among what we Catholics believe to be moral wrongs. It is in the Catholic political response to those wrongs. Church teaching on abortion and slavery is clear. But in the application of those teachings — the exact way we translate them into political action, the specific laws we propose, the exact legal sanctions we seek — there was and is no one, clear, absolute route that the Church says, as a matter of doctrine, we must follow.
Fr. John Langan S.J. of Georgetown University nailed it:
The bishops need to think carefully about whether they are showing a heroic resistance to absolute evil or whether they are being used by selfish and dishonest political interests and by zealots who show more passion than judgment when they stubbornly refuse to recognize the limits of what is politically possible in a pluralistic and individualistic society.
Could it be that folks like Cardinal Burke, Cardinal George, and the other bishops who are opposed to Notre Dame giving an honorary degree to Obama find it easier to stamp their feet and demand obedience than to effectively teach their flock and try to persuade the wider world about the wisdom of their positions?



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Patriarchal authoritarians seem to believe that everyone should bow down to their perspective just because it is theirs. No questioning of them or their motives allowed.
The fact that they are full of themselves is just a random bit of information with no bearing on anything. /s
Exactly. And thank goodness I have very good authoritarian-dar. I can see them coming a mile away. If they’re family or I want to keep them as quasi-acquaintances I treat them like slow children.
If not, in the words of our former dear leader, “the gloves come off”.
I urge everyone to click through that last link. That is the Church I grew up in.
I always thought that the job of religion was to show people how to be better and kinder and more loving. These days it is used like a club to beat people over the head and demand obedience – from everyone, even those of other faiths.
At the link there, Fr. Thomas Reese, SJ compares them to a parent who falls back on shouting “Because I said so!”
(SJ? What is it with these uppity Jesuits?)
He also notes this:
But that won’t stop the right wing bishops — they’ll just shout louder.
Screw em and ban catholics from the supreme court
I couldn’t get the link to open, but I’m guessing it explains a lot about you, since you said what you did. I’m sorry, it probably wasn’t good. However, there’s a lot of ways to see the world and we all have the choice to learn more. Fortunately, a new day offers now opportunities.
*
Peterr. Can I ask an ot question? Or, rather make a comment. I hope Christy is ok. No post from her today. You’re on the big dog list, so I’m wondering if you know anything. Thanks.
Raven! Not every vet is the same. Not every Catholic is the same. You know that. C’monnnnnnn.
Dude!
Rhetorical question?
Well put.
We are better off calling the cowards out.
Cheney, Rumsfield, Bush, George, Limbaugh…not two balls between the lot of em. Lots of bluster, no cojones.
Oh 1984 is soooo passe. Back in those dark ages we could occassionally discuss things rationally. But even by then, the end of sanity was already apparent.
that’s my story and I’m stickin to it. And ban baptists while you are at it.
Rand Paul, Ron’s son, announces his try for senate on Rachel. Won’t run against Bunning, though.
Whatever.
If the Roman Catholic church was consistent it would ban every couple that uses birth control, other than Vatican Roulette and abstinence, or has used invitro fertilization, from receiving communion. Why not? Because to do so would decimate the numbers attending church, thereby reducing the church’s money and, more importantly, power.
What about Les Paul? Peter Paul and Mary? Paul Pot?
The purpose of religion is to conduct or incite wars against other religions. Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations is just the current incarnation of a long long history.
It seems like the Catholic church is going the way of the Republican Party. Too pure for their shirts.
Hypocrisy is not unique to religion, it’s just heavily concentrated there. My favorite recent RC hypocrisy is the abolition of limbo, where unbaptised babies used to go if they died. All on account of Africa being the only place where RCs have any hope of increasing membership, and since there are so few priests, and such a high infant mortality rate, limbo was a real issue for possible converts.
I have to say that the unfairness of the limbo concept was one of my early doubts about the RC church, wherein I was unsuccessfully indoctrinated.
Nope.
Rachel hearts her some Pauls. Had Ron on last week and now Rand makes his big senate announcement on her show.
I don’t know Rachel at all, but somehow I think cozying up to the Pauls is her sneaky was of undermining the Rs.
Haven’t heard anything.
I’ll bet more people have been killed by religion than have been saved by it. Kinda silly bet because no one’s counted, but it would make a good master’s thesis in religion.
My other religion master’s thesis suggestion, to settle the arguments once & for all, without cherry picking passages, is to go thru the OT, NT and Koran, sentence by sentence, and calculate the percent of all sentences that advocate violence.
Thank you. I’ll hold a good thought.
check this out–cincinnati uproar about the new archbishop. the old archbishop is one of the ones causing the ruckus over obama.
http://www.wcpo.com/content/ne…..oNwpg.cspx
what isn’t in this article is that catholics over there are hoppin’ mad. boycotting mass and not tithing.looks like buying a half a million dollar house in the furthermost s/eastern corner of his new area drove people away from the church clutching their billfolds. i told friends who just visited from there that gone are the days of living with nuns to slave over you, i guess. he said archbishops live like kings. he will now need a new car to match the new house. i don’t think it will be a prius.
friend said, don’t forget the driver.
the two friends haven’t given a dime since this and she teaches at a catholic high school and it it is all people are talking about. the catholic church there also seems to forget that area went blue last year at election time. the outgoing archbishop is one of the main protesters to obama’s speaking at notre dame’s commencement. personally, bush’s library being at smu burns the crap out of me, i would call that sacreligious. but that is a permanent presence with a permanent structure. obama is speaking at a university, a place of learning. where education and opinions are supposed to cover many areas. every catholic i know is proud he is going there.
this article describes how the old and new archbishop are aiming to get people back in mass. en masse. doesn’t look like that will be happening as long as he’s in that big house. every time he’s in the paper, it just makes parishioners talk about the house. “why does a bachelor need a 5 bedroom house?” it’s not even centrally located. weird tactics. john said it just showed everyone how out of touch the catholic church really is. and they’re pulling their money out.
http://www.startribune.com/lif…..c:_Yyc:aUU
Right before Albino Luciani was elected Pope John Paul I in 1978, the first test tube baby was born. Luciani was asked for his opinion on the birth, and he had kind words for the parents and offered his best wishes for the little girl. He pointedly refused to offer a word of condemnation.
As a Lutheran, let me say that I think the Catholic Church would have been much better off had JP I been pope for 20 years instead of 1 month.
well, i always say, learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
Go for it.
BTW, I bought a copy of the Qur’an today.
Return of the Medicis?
My Koran is in my other location. It’s the Modern Library version with subject titles on the top of each page. Turn to the shuras about females being worth 1/2 of a man. (I know, that was enlightened at the time, but since then, time has stood still.)
I’ve said before that my (common law) bil is a Muslim. He’s a Doctor of Theology and teaches at Loyola Marymount here in LA. He’s big into ecumenical theology. He’s on a plane to NY to preach in some Catholic church this w/e, but I asked my sissy to ask him for a study guide, or do I just start and 1. and keep reading.
I am curious. I just want to know other stuff.
that was one nickname that came up. heh. also mentioned how it can be a boost for the art world, if he likes art.
not good. if my friends pulled their money, things are not good. that means less committed parishioners are too. and the stance against obama is backfiring also.
the location is what got me. it is the furthest corner away from his entire area and still be in it. i can’t for the life of me understand why he chose there. he must like to ride in the car a lot.
paulitically incorrect
Powerful organizations have a consistent way of undermining themselves. Hubris is the usual explanation. The RC church has remained incredibly powerful for a very long period (record breaking?), so they don’t seem to be harming themselves very much.
PS, I’m very careful about who I give authority to in my life. But, again, I like to read and learn.
I am vaguely aware that we’re not DIGGing anymore, but I don’t know why. Missed the meat of this. Help?
here’s how i do it–
flip, read, then read-get my own impressions first, then explore the parts that catch my eye, then the ones that talk deeper to me. then a study guide. later. but have a ‘guide’ that can interpret things that appear to have more than one reference so you can have it explain things that appear to have a multi, or deeper, context. like a classical mythology guide is handy to reference when reading.
they screwed jane and marcy out of ads. and ’site hit’ numbers.
think ‘alias’.
things that appear to have a multi, or deeper, context.
You already know this, but…I like the way you think.
Lots of good people in all religions. If that weren’t true, there’d be very few good people on earth, since the vast majority are religious. But I personally think the institutions suck. I’m entitled to my opinion.
Within my general opinion, I try to criticize the relgion I know best, RC, most, and the purported U.S. enemy, Muslims, the least, because I don’t think they are U.S. enemies at all. But there’s plenty of criticism to go around.
If you feel like it, ask your bil for me the following. In college, Bible was a required sophomore course, and the boring OT subject was who actually wrote it. IIRC, there were 4, E, J, R and I can’t remember the other. This analysis came from the language of the text, such as what the name was used for god (elohim and jahweh), R is for redactor, who combined a bunch of stuff.
The long winded point being that the OT has been closely analysed. I wonder if anyone has done the same for the Koran, which wasn’t written for several decades after it was transmitted to Muhammad. As in pass-the-word, oral transmission has a way of changing text. As I understand Islam, the Koran as currently written is the unassailable word of god, so I suspect textual analyses would be regarded as apostasy. Still, I wonder if they have been done, and if so, what was learned.
Short version: they republish whole stories which then means that the original site doesn’t get the clicks. I may not be entirely accurate, but that’s the gist.
I will be happy to ask him. What school did you go to, field of study and when. Just to give him context. I’ll copy this and let you know.
Wellesley ‘66. Chemistry major. Switched to economics a year after graduation, a complicated story.
thanks.
just saying, have a ‘reference’ that is a reference. not an interpretation, but an illuminary literary type of book that will add information, not interpretation. so you can make your own interpretations as you learn the text.
i had a good one for the bible, but didn’t have it until i was in my 40’s after i had already read and studied it for many years. was helpful in linking similar passages and references and geographic locations and family lines, but be careful to ignore ‘opinion’. many religious text guides are ripe with people who write them solely to convert and sway. but there are some that are to be used solely for reference. i’m sure your broinlaw would know of one.
maybe peterr does.
Ah! Thanks, eCAHN and dmac. Why is the DIGG icon still present? (I know. I’m way off topic. For someone who spent much of her professional life working in/for/of The Church, probably just as well.)
that i do not know.
last i heard it was a programming thing, but that was a while ago…also, that they were leaving the door open…but that was a while ago. don’t know which or if it’s something else.
thanks!
demi, in my attempt to learn about Islam, I’ve read several books, like Armstrong, Esposito, and listened to a college course on tape, can’t remember the prof’s particulars. Also read a bio of Muhammad, but must confess in full disclosure, I chose the one by the French atheist, Maxine Rodinson, because I thought it would be the most fun. So if your bil has a reading suggestion, I’d appreciate it.
Again, don’t trust my opinion, but I understand removing digg is more than a trivial exercise.
All copied and pasted. Have a nice evening, Roseanne.
Added that!
I am not religious but it is interesting how religious extremism has become such a powerful force in all of the world’s relgions. It used to be that there was a kind of Galileo effect where religions wanted to prove that they could exist with science in a modern technological world. Now it seems the whole coexistence with science has gone by the boards and the only question a religion has is what century it wants to lead its adherents back to.