"General McKiernan has taken some significant steps in terms of changing the way we go about our operations in Afghanistan, including by the Special Forces, to try and take even further measures to avoid civilian casualties and to avoid antagonizing the local population. This is something I worry about a lot. If we lose the Afghan people, we have lost the war," he said.
Of course, he made the same pledge back in September when he said that "While no military has ever done more to prevent civilian casualties, it is clear that we have to work even harder."
Yet once again, all those regrets and promises and pledges have proven to be worthless as news of the latest mass killing of civilians emerges from “Bala Baluk, a Taliban-controlled area in Farah province near the border with Iran.”
Afghan officials estimated that at least 30 and possibly more than 100 died in the attack on Bala Baluk, a Taliban-controlled area in Farah province near the border with Iran. If confirmed, it could be one of the highest civilian death tolls since the US-backed invasion in 2001.
Villagers brought truckloads of bodies, most of them women and children, to the provincial capital.
There were conflicting accounts last night about what had happened. One accounted suggested children, women and the elderly had gone to the village of Gerani to escape fighting between the Taliban and the Afghan National Army (ANA) but the compounds they sheltered in had been bombed.
Amongst those killed:
"We know that those killed included an Afghan Red Crescent volunteer and 13 members of his family who had been sheltering from fighting in a house that was bombed in an airstrike," said Reto Stocker, the ICRC’s head of delegation in the Afghan capital, Kabul.
The final death toll of civilians is still unclear – the BBC reports that the Red Cross teams who have gone to the village puts the number at “dozens of civilians including women and children. The organisation says the civilians were sheltering from fighting in the province of Farah when their houses were struck.” The BBC World Service overnight broadcast an interview with Jessica Barry, a Red Cross official in Kabul, who stated that the ICRC was notified by local leaders while the fighting was going on that civilians were sheltering in houses—and the ICRC was warning international forces to take care to protect these civilians. The Afghan news service Quqnoos says the possible number could be as high as 120:
A fatal US-led air strike has killed some 120 non-combatants Monday night in Farah Province, locals said
Locals have taken more than 20 bodies, including kids and women to the provincial capital, Farah city, an evidence to reveal the brutality of the operation.
Farah Governor, Rohul-Amin confirms the casualties of an enormous unclear number of local residents, but he lacks information to put across an exact figure.
Afghan President Karzai, who is in the US to meet with Congress and President Obama, has ordered an investigation, and a US commander has been sent to investigate. We know what comes next: a statement of regret, some condolence money, and yet another promise to be more careful in the future—a promise which recent history tells us will once again be broken.
Update: The broken record plays on. This time the statement of regret comes from Secretary of State Clinton as seen above.



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“hil” just does not come across to me as authentically sincere here.
how can she say such heartfelt things like this when she was, during her presidential run, all open to “obliterating” Iran. THE ENTIRE COUNTRY OF Iran, incidentally.
This is all just atrocious. Another aggressive act by the US that will never know the burden of accountability. It’s too familar, all too old…… repeats far too often…….., leaving me disheartened and depressed over the blood on our collective hands.
*sigh*
and ty, Siun.
Latest news per MSNBC is that the military is saying that at least three families were killed by taliban grenades to appear that they were killed by airstrikes.
Now to get Ollie North there to provide verification.
This is very difficult to read and watch.
We are a long, long way from getting this right.
thanks siun
Ah, yes! Ollie was so useful in the past but I guess he was not there as an embedded journalist this time.
When the ICRC – which is very careful – sends a team and identifies casualties as being from an air strike, I find them much more trustworthy. The high visibility of this attack – and the timing to coincide with Karzai’s visit – certainly seems to have folks scrambling to make this go away.
If that is true, that accounts for 20 percent of those killed. The other 80 percent of the collateral damage would be the result of ham-fisted American fighting technique.
Rhetorical ? Did the MSM explain this rationale?
They are just doing their stenography thing.
Broken Record indeed. The vicious circle is the flower of conceit, killing more civilians, creating more terror, the baseless apologies – all the while some guy in a trailer in Nevada, after a hard nights work of killing from afar, gets to decide between tacos or a big mac for dinner while driving home to his family.
Obama’s Vietnam.
CNN is now running with the grenade story … argh.
anna, your art is always so wonderful .. thank you for sharing that!
Folks, don’t miss annamissed’s link!
That footage of Hillary sort of jolts one awake to the fact that Obama is in charge of the killing machine now. And the apology machine.
Apologies sound so much more sincere when Democrats make them.
And to think it all started because of the 911 treason lie.
Time to quiet the guns and bring all the troops home NOW.
That ain’ just any ol killing machine its” The Magnificent Merican Murder Machine” guilt free killing day after day after day after day
Guilt free for who? You know diddly about soldiers.
During the first Bush league invasion, of Panama after one of their cartoon Black Barts that bunch is so fond of creating for fun and profit, it was reported by Martha Gellhorn (with a British passport, as American media was excluded) that the invaders went with maximal force into a slum which Noriega was known to inhabit and they let loose with shelling which killed, according to Gellhorn, five thousand humans. He wasn’t home.
That’s the amount which would fill the stands at our local football field in my early days. And it’s also, if I remember, the exact number of those slaughtered during the strike in One Hundred Years of Solitude. And, like them, these corspses disappeared from hisotry. There was no trace of the slaughter. It simply did not happen.
The political choice is to restrain US losses, and that means more firepower from further away, which means more dead civilians. So we can imagine a discussion at high levels, nervous of how casualties of Americans play out in the US media, reassuring themselves with “Who remembers the Panamanians?”
Thanks siun.
How about me? You think maybe I know something? After 26 years as a vets counselor?
Everybody is ready to attribute motives and moods to everyone in the news. I heard many more accounts of atrocities committed in Vietnam than sorrow for them. And the stories were all in support of claims for PTSD, which meant, always and forever, for all of us, the primary consideration is first person singular.
I once watched a night scope video showing a targeting reticle first set on a building, then shifting to a group of people (little dots) moving out of the building, the pilot “asking” for “permission” to bomb the group of people rather than the building. On the resulting bomb burst, most of the viewers celebrated. I then said, congratulations on killing some twelve women and children, you moron. I said, women, children and old folks move in a compact group, helping each other. Soldiers move in a dispersed pattern.
America is so fraked, just another banana republic.
Ok, I’ll buy that as long as it applies to everyone, heroic Islamic freedom fighters included.
There is a This American Life episode my son told me about. It features a forward observor of sorts, one of those who decide on targets and their potential costs. We have al Malarki confirmed in a house in Fallujah, so what’s his true worth dead if there are women and children to go with him? Is he a 5 kid target? They make these sorts of calls. I cannot find the episode in the index on the NPR site.
Ah, you only care about yourself.
winning hearts and minds…right
I guess you are right.
I did not celebrate, feeling too sick about the video.
You tell me why the VVAW came into existence(along with the beginning of the “self-help” movement that originated with rap groups)? Winter Soldier wasn;t about PTSD claims.
That was snark about the previous comment but does support my contention that there is plenty of guilt.
Do we know that this hasn’t happened? Is it not possible that there would have been many, many more, if it had not?
Jus’ askin..
Good luck on this thread.
Fighting in Afghanistan gets us closer to stopping Ossama in Pakistan as he takes over a country with Nukes how?
We may soon have to attack Pakistan’s nukes to keep them out of Ossama’s hands.
Bush gave Pakistan how many billion dollars to help Pakistan? How much of that cash is in swiss bank accounts?
We should freeze those accounts then I bet the Pakistani army will fight that and the Promise we will take out their Nukes if they don’t get on the stick.
I’m in this for stopping Ossama Iraq, Afghanistan they are a waste of time, money and lives.
Thanks…it just seems like a legitimate question. Changing ROE to minimize civilian casualties is not the same as eliminating civilian casualties, and given the amounts and types of firepower we are employing, it could easily be thousands dead every week.
Afghanistan is Pashtun for Viet Nam.
Yo, Raven.
I agree but I just don’t think you’ll get anywhere with that line of thought. We are the root of all evil.
Sup bro, should have stayed off this one me thinks.
More is not the issue every death brings the the dead’s family to Ossama.
I think the difference between the Taliban and Ossama is fiction they both want to kill us.
They both were set up by the Paki intelligence services.
There goals might be different free Afghanistan kill Americans but the end result kill us.
Who cares we can leave but not if they get Pakistan’s nukes.
All our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq should be after Ossama 9/11 is what they signed up for not this.
Cui bono (who benefits?) and why Obama has no plans for leaving Central Asia. Pepe Escobar has been telling the geo-political truth for years. Here he talks about Pipelineistan
Welcome to Pipelineistan, by Pepe Escobar
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175050
I became against these wars the second we stopped going after Ossama. I am willing to ignore Iraq and Afghanistan they are a waste of our time and lives.
But Nukes sorry can’t ignore that.
Naw. Lotta diff between what we’d like it to be and what it really is. Nothing like real eyes on time to keep it straight.
No one is defending the so-called “murder” of civilians, although I take exception to the term…let’s argue backwards: if we were not trying to avoid civilian casualties, we would have been saturation bombing Waziristan, the Swat Valley, and large parts of Afghanistan with B-52’s. We are not, and the only reason not, is to avoid killing large numbers of civilians.
I’m interested in the dudes comments about his experience as a vets counselor. I have no reason to doubt him but I know plenty of guys carryin big weight and it’s got zip to do with getting a profile.
Plenty of people here think we are doing Rolling Thunder II.
Cost benefit the cost for a gas pipeline is too much, swallow some pride and go home.
In politics the armies have always hated swallowing pride.
Tell the Generals their cash gets cut and a ban on generals lobbying or serving on corporate boards would help take their profit off of supporting a loosing plan away.
American tax payers have already paid to much. Give us Ossama or go home.
Stop Ossama from getting Nukes send are troops into Pakistan or go home.
I want answers I want a plan either get Ossama or go home half ass attempts don’t cut it bye!
I think the real reason is saturation bombing wouldn’t be cost effective for the terrain. The military is currently drone happy and are going to continue to use kids in the States to operate them. Killing from 10,000 miles is easier than killing from 30,000 feet. I have no reason to accept the credibility of intelligence being received. The number of folks turned over to the military for a reward in the early days only to find out they were getting shepherds and such should have taught us a lesson.
Right. That’s nuts…people don’t seem to grasp the difference between an F-15 dropping a bomb, and 100 B-52’s paying a visit.
And no guilt? My former brother-in-law did a stint in Afghanistan, 2 tours in Iraq, came home, and punched his own ticket three months later.
Guilt aplenty, and enough to go around.
I worked with them for almost 20 years and I couldn’t come up with a profile that was of any use. But I only had 1 war to deal with. Some, like me, are just fuckin’ crazy, others, not so much.
Afghanistan
Area
– Total 647,500 km2 (41st)
251,772 sq mi
Population
– 2008 estimate 32,738,376 (37th)
– 1979 census 13,051,358
– Density 46/km2 (150th)
119/sq mi
Pakistan
Area
– Total 803,940 km2 (36th)
340,403 sq mi
– Water (%) 3.1
Population
– 2008 estimate 165,900,000[1] (6th)
– 1998 census 132,352,279[2]
– Density 206/km2 (55th)
534/sq mi
If we can’t make a dent in Afghanistan what the hell would we do in Pakistan?
Roger that.
That’s awful. Collective guilt is bad enough, but to have it come home to your doorstep. I just don’t know what to say.
I also counsel vet returnees. I can easily support regime change in the US.
Ah, in the Army we called a “profile” the level of disability.
Phoenix Woman upstairs!
The Unending War on Social Security
We are fine right here thank you. :)
You are tryin to snow the snow man with dat noise!
Just what we need, another fuckin’ war on something. These Rethugs need to learn about the joys of sex. That Hawaiian disease, lakanookie, is gonna be the death of them. On second thought…
Wellll, I ain’t real crazy. *g*
We will be a mature culture when we can identify the moral equivalent of war. Until then…
that’s what I’m talkin bout
Just sane enough to stay loose and weird on the street, while crazy enough to still have fun.
Man, that’s quite the subject for an essay. I wonder what the Dali Lama would say.
Off on the business of the Queen. See all later.
He’d say, “I made a mistake in believing non-violence could work against the Chinese. . .in fact he did!
Afghanistan Graveyard of Empires
by Milton Bearden, CIA station chief Pakistan from 1986 to 1989
http://www.khyber.org/publicat…..yard.shtml
Fellow, I was a member of the VVAW/Winter Soldier organization, a group that operated in my town under the cover Vets Co-Op, featuring lots of promises about benefits and other goodies. The focus was first and last anti-war, which is very healthy, I think. This was the early 70s. The groups died out in maybe two years, and the vets, they cometh every day, until I left, spring of 2000. Our town is not your usual one. We are the sump of the sixties, and proud of it. There is still in existence the only known VFW post which is anti-war.
Okay, then, let’s do this.
Vietnam generated reams of bad paper. More were discharged with less than fully honorables during that conflict than any other, if you’re talking proportionally. Everyone jumped in with a rationale. It’s because they are opposed to the war. They don’t like that war, that’s it.
That wasn’t it. I was part of the Boards for a time, which ushered troops out short of ETS for various reasons. They actively sought this solution, with good reason. When I left out of Ft Sill, I went to work as a counselor, as I say. I saw plenty of the bad paper crew on the other side.
You know what the main trouble was? Bad scheduling. The US had six months BCT and AIT, then some jungle rot, then over there. He would come back with six months left on his hitch. The RAs had a year and that much. So what did the Army do with them? Sent them into training companies.
This is equivalent of somebody with an advanced degree being sent back to high school. Some idiot kid lieutenant just out of OCS wants to talk bootshines. (The very last human I ever heard utter “Goody-Goody-Gum-Drop” was a 2nt Lt, Btry A 1st/18th XO room, circa 1970.) They left in droves, and lots of it was due to the humiliation of going through what they did and then being sent back to juvie hall.
Now, let’s admit I’m talking about a subset here. This is not a random sampling of all vets of the era, it was strictly those who came in for help of some sort. There was much dismay about mistreatment – of them, by the public. Some thought they deserved much more credit. The stories I heard of atrocities were indeed in the context of PTSD claims, which meant, it was bad over there, here’s what I went through, pay me.
There was genuine suffering, which is natural. It was the expected result of what they had gone through. They joined the various counseling groups, they sure did. And then left out suddenly when payday arrived (PTSD was awarded).
I’m trying to think back on cases. The artilleryman who reported the deuce-and-a-half his grisly company commander commissioned to bring in bodies to show them how much good their work was doing. He said, “I’d just as soon not have seen that.”
There’s more, but I think everybody’s bored with this by now …
Understand my work history covers wars and warriors from the summer of ‘74 up to the spring of 2000. Some WWI early on, lots of aged WWII pensioners, hardly any Korean (the silent war), and mostly Vietnam. Also, in my vernacular, “profile” refers to a medical handicap in service that exempts you from duty. Not a DVA term I recognize post-service.
“Ok, I’ll buy that as long as it applies to everyone, heroic Islamic freedom fighters included.”
How can you ever say that some psycho who blows himself up for the good of the cause is thinking “first person singular”?
Fellow, I was too.
What is the difference between blowing yourself up for the good of the cause and enlisting for a ginned up illegal war of revenge and getting blown up for the good of the cause? Uniforms?
You got facebook mail, I get the sense we have a lot more in common than it seems from this discussion, bro.
I’d say about 95%.
Couple of my buddies fought the VA for a 100% PTSD disability and when they finally got it they didn’t have a clue what to do with themselves. Almost like post-partum depression.
It is pretty much guaranteed around here that Siun’s excellent threads get sidetracked or hijacked. Must be the painful subject matter. Thank you for shining the spotlight, Siun.
It was three hours ago, relax.
Not you sir, the scum at the top of the tank. I honor your service to our country and wish you peace for that you did and did not make the final decision to do.
thanks for that
Suin’s thread was not hijacked, so far as I am concerned, Dru.
What further discussion has gone on here, this evening, is most worthwhile. I would go so far as to say it is a most necessary part of this discussion, placing an important ‘perspective’ and understanding around our nation’s penchant for warfare as an easy (and profitable) solution to all kinds of ‘problems’, genuine or ‘perceived’ simply for blatant political gain and ‘advantage’.
In spite of Raven’s misgivings about whether he is appreciated on Suin’s threads, what he brings to the broader discussion on these threads (when he is willing to stay and ‘engage’) is certainly appreciated by all who value the process of learning from the experience of others. Because Raven is willing to share, even his doubts as well as his painfully gained insight and his completely unfair burden of guilt and shame, his voice has genuine authority, humanity, and justice behind it.
I have a feeling that Raven and Clovis and others like them, who have been “there”, are going to be nothing less than life-lines for many who will be returning from the “endless” war with the growing realization that they were sacrificed on the altar of greed and to the whims, the petty, perverted ambitions of several, or even a bunch of sociopaths … who do not value life, humanity, justice, truth, or peace.
Raven went to Vietnam because he was given the ‘choice’ by a judge …
Vietnam or someplace a lot more confining … he was young (and probably cocky) but made the ‘best’ choice possible under the circumstance. What he learned subsequently, a “learning” shared by many others, happens to matter very much, because it is, apparently, the quintessential “learning” which each American generation must be put through, simply because the older (if not, in any way, wiser) generation insists upon it …
Being a bit older than Raven, Dru, when I was confronted with the older generation’s ‘orders’ to report for ‘induction’ to go to Vietnam, I deliberately chose not to ‘obey’ and refused to be inducted. I fully expected that prison would be my fate and had prepared myself (as well as one might “prepare”) for that eventuality. As it turned out, “they” didn’t want me that badly. Well, they did try to ’sweeten’ the offer by saying that they would make me an officer and (presumably) a gentleman, but I guess that ‘they’ just couldn’t understand that if I didn’t intend to put myself in the position of killing people that I had nothing against on the mere say-so of a government most decidedly NOT of, for, and by the people (a ’situation’ which has not ‘improved’, by the way), I certainly wasn’t going to put anyone else in that spot. Surprisingly, from my perspective, the military ultimately decided that they were no more interested in me than I was interested in them. I guess “they” somehow figured that it would be more trouble than it was worth to make a good soldier of such a poor (and cocky) prospect.
I lost too many friends, Dru, in Vietnam, to not absolutely appreciate Raven, Southern Dragon and all the others, here, who ‘went’ and I value whatever any of them care to say about their experience or whatever they have come to understand through that experience.
DW
The focus definitely needs to be on AQ and it’s leadership. Obama has already made that clear and I think Dr. Dean and his followers agreed in 2004.
Now we’re in the ‘game’ and decisions have to be made, real ground has to be covered and there are real casualties.
Apparently AQ is sticking very close to the Taliban and I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if they weren’t assisting with leadership. Think of the Hole in the Wall Gang with Butch & Sundance leading the idiots. Not easy to catch!
However, team work, patience, endurance and resources can get it done.
You have to find their vulnerability. It might vary depending upon where they are and what resources are at their hands. In the Swat valley they would be exposed to drone attacks. In the mountains they wouldn’t have great cover, but would blend in. Strafing attacks would hit exposed elements until they hid sufficiently. In tunnels they wouldn’t have mobility, but they might have some stored resources. They would feel more comfortable if we had to go low-tech and face them one-on-one. We should resist that particular urge. This is where their mobility slows their escape and gives us time to use a slower patient picking away at their defensive position. Unless they have an escape they are eventually doomed. The attack just has to be patient and not expose troops unnecessarily. Specific tool & techniques would depend upon the place.
This is why it’s so important to look at the battle-ground after the initial fighting and decide what their situation is and how we need to adjust to hit them in the next phase (see Bruce Lee).
Napoleon said no battle plan survives the first skirmishes. I think all our commanders today know that. In Iraq there was quite a discussion about the enemy adjusting to our tactics and we have to creatively adjust too.
In a way, if the Taliban and AQ move into more remote areas it will be safer for the Pakistanis. If they stay in the Swat valley our forces won’t have to re-adjust constantly, but a lot of civilians will have to leave.
Thank you, Mr. Obama. Now go back into your hidey hole.