If you haven’t heard this fascinating interview with Dr. Bryce Lefever, a military psychologist and SERE instructor who participated in enhanced interrogations war crimes in Afghanistan, give it a listen.
Lefever, teeming with arrogance, sees himself as some kind of hero and explains his actions thusly:
From Lefever’s perspective, the notion that psychologists behaved in an unethical manner is absurd; a product, he believes, of a fundamental misunderstanding of the psychologists’ true ethical obligations. Because psychologists are supposed to be do-gooders, Lefever says, "the idea that they would be involved in producing some pain just seems at first blush to be something that would be wrong, because we ‘do no harm.’ "
But in fact, says Lefever, "the ethical consideration is always to do the most good for the most people."
Now the concept of doing the most good for the most people is pretty basic utilitarianism, but to me, the notion that John Stuart Mill would endorse torture seemed pretty off-base. And on the surface, Lefever’s model seems easy to poke holes in. If a majority benefits from slavery, does that justify slavery?
Nope.
What utilitarianism is unable to articulate is that there are some things you would never do, not ever, because winning the fight would not be worth the degradation. The point is that not all moral dilemmas can be reduced to a cost-benefit analysis of pleasure and pain, good and evil. There are some kinds of pain a morally serious person ought never to inflict. Torture—defined as the deliberate degradation and humiliation of a person through the infliction of physical and mental pain—is simply not what we do to other human beings.
And there’s also this wonky perspective from an Air Force intelligence officer, who has a PhD in cognitive science and philosophy:
I have argued that it is possible to formulate a theory of exceptions for torture interrogation. This theory can be patterned after another attempt to reach a reasonable compromise between utilitarian and deontic demands: Walzer’s doctrine of supreme emergency. However, the requirements for this test are stringent enough that while severe forms of torture interrogation might be permissible in certain circumstances, those circumstances will almost never present themselves in actual practice. For all practical purposes, the requirements will never actually be met.
The "24/ticking bomb" scenario is a cartoonish, neocon fantasy. Lefever’s use of it here, and his half-baked utilitarianism, are rather lame and transparent attempts to justify his crimes.



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that’s not the oath that’s his convenient cya and it’s exactly what Dr.s Rascher and Dachau used to justify their experiments at aucher
the consideration, “do the most good for the most people” applies when there are limited resources, it does not apply at all to people who’ll be used as guini pigs.
your analogy is a good one spence but I like mine better;
you do not karl gebthardt types of experiments on people against their will so you can save a bunch of other people
so his entire reasoning is depraved and cya but even if you consider the reasoning valid, it still fails as an excuse;
you get less information through torture, you promote unrest, you lengthen the war you strenghten the enemy, you recruit soldiers for the insurgency against your cause, you create more terrorist events
so “doing the most good for the most people” would have INSISTED they refuse overseeing torture
the man loses even under the weight of his own argument
his name can be added to the following list of “dr.s” who shared his philosophy and hopefully he will suffer a similar fate;
Karl Gebhardt – Hanged
Fritz Fischer – Life in Prison
Adolf Pokorny – Acquitted
August Hirt – Hanged
Sigmund Rascher – Hanged
Edwin Katzenellenbogen-life in prison
he goes on with his admition that he committed torture, notice my bold;
“taking care of their mental health needs” is quite a bit differant then causing mental health issues, one is torture the other is not
Help!…is there a deontologist in the house?
Not to mention that torture does not extract accurate information to begin with, so that assumption is out the window.
Physicians for Human Rights is calling for an investigation of the American Psychological Association’s ties to the Pentagon.
The “its not sadism if your not having fun with it” defense?
I lack a fundamental understanding about why torture is so attractive to so many people, especially considering it fails to achieve the alleged goal: accurate information. Is it just sadism?
It’s tragic to read this reaffirmation statement by the APA. It totally appears politically motivated.
Sorry link did not show up @ 7.
Among so many other things coming out about the participation of psychologists in setting up the torture program and participating in the ‘process’, those just released “APA documents”, are most ‘interesting’, Jim.
I commend the Physicians for Human Rights for having the courage and conviction to call for this investigation.
To see a profession which once looked to be my own, behave with such unprofessional and inhumane disdain toward the fundamental humanity of ALL people, is far more appalling for me to contemplate than I can rationally and reasonably put into words. Suffice it to say that what is being revealed is most shameful and in direct opposition to the tenets of the profession.
There must be an accounting.
So many people are now implicated, along with the institutions (mostly ‘educational’), with which these ‘psychologists’ are affiliated, that the ‘fall-out’ will resonate or rage for years, if not decades, within the profession.
What was it GB Shaw said (someone mentioned this a few days ago, but who it was I cannot recall)? “Madam we know what you are, we are now merely haggling over the price.” That says it all.
Why are they leaving out an investigation of the MDs that monitored the torture?
Scene from the future:
“Doctor Lefever, meet Doctor Mengele. Doctor Mengele, Doctor Lefever.”
This guy is pretty sick. He has no moral compass and a distorted view of the world. He assumes that he can get useful information from someone with something like torture.
I’d like to read all the useful information that got from torture which won’t be revealed because
a- they will claim it is classified
b- they got nothing but BS
The question to ask these torture apologists is, “When did you lose your soul?”
Here’s one of my favorite quotes on the subject from someone the Republicans claim to admire:
“No man can take part in the torture of a human being without having his own moral nature permanently lowered.”
–Theodore Roosevelt
When you face the fact that ALL who participated, watched and had knowledge from the guards to the pilots, the MDs the CIA “interrogators” the civilian ones, an awful lot of people drunk that koolaid and ARE probably guilty of crimes against humanity as well as US law.
That is like admitting we let the goons loose or we are a bunch of goons. Politicians don’t do that.
Nobody is mentioning the role of the interviewer here: Alix Spiegel. Her innocent schoolgirl’s cutesy curious wet inquiry sets into juxtaposition the calm reassuring resonant tones of the wise and world-weary torturer who will save us. He is a friendly man that will tell America the story it wants to hear: that America is a good country with good intentions that is unjustly vilified by a liberal media – never mind that screaming from the basement.
APA’s ethics policy on interrogations is a piece of self-serving BS. A real cover-your-ass document which seems to have had pre-ordained outcome.
I love the part where he said, to the effect, the media should be kissing our ass.
What a wacko.
You don’t think National Pentagon Radio would skewer the dude do you?
What is the US government policy on extracting information as the location of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons so they can be destroyed simultaneously with the fall of Pakistan to a government hostile to the United States?
you were saying ?
Washington Monthly piece with some background on APA’s, um, efforts
Not quite true. You can’t lower something that does not exist.
VERY self-serving.
By the way, NPR has become a clearinghouse for torture apologists.
-G
The neocons think that the “ticking time bomb scenario” is a good argument for torture, but it really isn’t. Let’s assume everything they want us to assume: we know there’s a ticking time bomb, we even know when it’s going to go off, and we have a captive that knows the exact location of the bomb. He won’t give it up. The captive is an evil terrorist who hates America.
So you decide to torture him. But all he has to do is give credible but wrong answers, which you then have to investigate. Since you’ve decided to inflict terrible pain instead of trying to induce cooperation, he’s more committed than ever to killing large numbers of Americans, because you’ve just proven to him that Americans are monsters who deserve to die. So he sends you on wild goose chases for long enough for the time to run out.
The members were probably selected by Monica Goodling
Of course, we create laws collectively so that we can decide whether or not the “inalienable” rights of the individual can be superseded by the State. Mr. LeFever believes that he can take this perogative and power into his own hands (or cede it, Unconstitutionally to the Executive Branch). That’s the difference between fascism and a democracy, isn’t it. At least in a democracy we are allowed to collectively accept guilt and responsibility for our own fears…but Bush and his cronies knew that this was something that would never be acceptale ifd a dialogue was engaged in. Just like a dictator they undertook to do it themselves and keep it secret. Laws are created in the open. LeFever says that he’s not ashamed of what “he did”. Hmmm! I bet the American people are.
Judging from his background he is not likely to be a “independent” source, as he would like to suggest. He was at Bagram in 2002…the chief psychologist involved with interrogations. And in earlier interviews, before the scope of all the torture came out he admitted that water boarding was torture…of course, in that context he was talking about SERE training…what it would be if applied to OUR GUYS.
Yo, Gazoogle Queen! Slow day?
Good one. I hadn’t thought that thru. Thanks.
Interesting…Lefever was a “Department Head” of the Navy’s Substance Abuse Rehabilitation Program. How about just saying “No” to torture?
I apologize — I am at work and can’t look for the source now — but I read this example somewhere this morning:
5 children need organ transplants and a single individual has organs that are a match. So if you do the most good for the most people, the individual with the organs should be sacrificed to save the 5 children.
If I can find a link later, I’ll post it.
Yep, pretty easy to debunk.
not for us bloggers !
remember, I took the day off, working only tonight @ 5:30
Nice “piece” in the Washington Monthly, cbl2.
Looks as if law schools are not the only ‘portion’ of ‘higher’ education that requires some attention, um … going forward …
America has, now, an opportunity to step back and examine its ‘direction’ and ‘purpose’.
Germany was offered that same kind of ‘opportunity’ after WWI and there were those, including Rudolf Steiner (Waldorf Schools, bio-dynamic farming, etc.) for example, who sought to encourage a timely discussion. The German peoples chose NOT to avail themselves of the opportunity. The rest is history.
What voices will the American people hear and heed?
OT I knew this had to happen. The NYT in its ongoing journalistic death spiral has this article: Schumer Offers Middle Ground on Health Care
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05…..h.html?hpw
by another one of its star idiot reporters John Pear. What is Schumer’s “middle ground”?
This isn’t about leveling the playing field. It’s about hobbling any government program so that it will be as bad and inefficient as private sector ones. But what kills me about this is that it is promoted by the Times as a “middle ground” at the very same time that single payer universal healthcare isn’t even allowed on the table.
And what is this mania about middle grounds except a slogan to sell bad programs to the rubes? If I say 2 + 2 = 4 and Congressional whackos say it is 56, is it really a middle ground for Schumer or anyone to say it’s 30?
Will those catholic bishops deny communion to the torturers?
AHA. It was our very own Attackerman!
Monster Hospital
Well for god’s sake, torture doesn’t even WORK! That means that “Doctor” Bryce — and others who either enjoy hurting other people or get off on thinking about such things — is not only morally bereft but incompetent. I wish we could clear the air on this shit and try to regain some sense of morality as a country (and competence).
It is a convenient place to dump those that the insurance vultures choose not to cover and then say see how much more expensive a government plan is.
Leopold and Lobe sized misunderstanding of philosophy values are Relative to the danger we face? If values disappear as the danger gets worse then why have laws at all?
There are Absolute Values stuff that is wrong all the time. Both because they are wrong and the true moral person holds his values then even tighter in Crisis and does not Panic while reading my Pet Goat.
And because torture does not work I want any and all memos from the CIA, Pentagon etc to the WH that tried to explain to the WH torture does not work.
This hack seems to be the WH’s only voice otherwise lets look at his expertise and standing to trump the anti torture experts.
I bet we find that like John Yoo this guy was cherry picked.
Great Quote
Lets see, we have a ticking time bomb and we have an alleged conspirator so we torture him 183 times a month and get no useful information. How many ticking time bombs go off in a month.
I don’t have a PhD, but I do understand this.
“There are some kinds of pain a morally serious person ought never to inflict. Torture—defined as the deliberate degradation and humiliation of a person through the infliction of physical and mental pain—is simply not what we do to other human beings.”
I have an image in my mind of a dark room with a single light bulb over the shackled prisoner and Dr. Lefever asking over and over, “Is it safe…is it safe?
Diary! the logic of that question alone deserves it.
This whole torture “issue” is absurd as a topic for debate. Say I suspect my neighbor of molesting my daughter. I can not kidnap him, lock him in my basement and waterboard him until he confesses to the crime. I will not only be prosecuted, but will be subject to the death penalty, and the confession I got will be unpermissable in court. orture is illeagal in the U.S. It’s pretty simple if you put it in realistic terms.
jaysus Lefever, it could be argued slavery provided the most good for the most people
geawd whatta pig. but I’m smiling ’cause this guy has Jeb Stuart Magruder written all over his pasty ass – these are the guys other guys drop a dime on to avoid prison
From teh WaPo
Thank you for posting on this. I realize I am late to this party. But I caught that interview yesterday, while making dinner. And it’s a wonder my kitchen is not destroyed. For as I listened I just got more and more enraged by the way my profession was being portrayed. Instead of “first do no harm” it was “the most good for the most people”. (But who decided most good and most people, I was asking myself?) By the end of the interview he made it clear that by “most people” he was referring to Americans, cuz those are the ones he likes. Ugh! How juvenile! How unprofessional! How shallow and callous!
What also annoyed me was that there was no other psychologist being interviewed. Just this guy, presenting his sick view of ethics. And educating the American public to a sick view of my profession!
No one may show up to read this. But it matters not to me. I’ve stood up here. And it’s here for the record. And I’ve not participated either in harming persons through torture or harming my profession through selling out to an ends justifies the means philosophy – based on the “end” chosen by a psychologist, who admits to only being concerned about Americans. If I were a swearing person, this would be the time to swear at the guy. He’s a sorry example of a lack of ethics, a lack of morality, a lack of professionalism – a sell-out to greed and immorality.
I feel dirtied by the man. And I’m going to wash my hands right now.
Lefever is just the latest poster child for appearing in the dock at the ICC in The Hague. He has to wait in line behind Yoo, Bybee, Bradford, Addington, Gonzales, Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney & Bush, etal.
LeFever makes a really interesting statement in the NPR article…
Without getting into the strange and complicated relationships between “war fighters” or those on the “line of fire” and staff corps asshats like LeFever (please allow me to exclude most actual combat doctors from that category) it’s instructive to note LeFever’s langauge concerning “most military psychologists”.
Most Line Officers, like me viewed them as pretty useless appendages to the military machine who had their place in the grand scheme of things, but were overall generally just below trash-bags in real utility. LeFever and his ilk have found a niche that made them feel useful, but the their “techniques” still gained little acceptance among military leaders who understood the consequences of unilaterally violating the Geneva Convention. Senior military officers who were not afraid to speak out during the years of the 1600 Crew were punished, and others did speak out but not until they were no longer on Active Duty.
LeFever and his colleagues basing their entire raison d’etre on a 24 Scenario would have been just as happy coming up with reasons to persecute Jews in 1930s Germany… after all, as LeFever says:
I wonder if he was made that up or was quoting a Nazi, because it could go either way as far as I’m concerned.
Lefever exhibits some of George Bush’s pathology, including marked penis-envy. He describes choices confronting front-line field operators and policy makers, not consultant psychologists and psychiatrists. He has abandoned the psychologists’ version of the Hippocratic Oath and opted instead for hypocrisy. “My client is my country” is the sort of thing one expects from a Soviet psychologist whose job it was to imprison dissenters in mental hospitals. The man’s license should be revoked and his actions investigated for war crimes.
“the ethical consideration is always to do the most good for the most people”
This is a strange statement coming from a medical person, since it is exactly OPPOSITE to the physician’s actual ethical responsibility, at least as I have always understood it. The physician’s duty is to do the most good for HIS PATIENT, not for society at large. “Most people” will have their own doctors looking after them. His patient has only him. A doctor can’t have a conflict of interest.
Understandinding this makes discussion of the Nazi doctors doubly telling. We tend to think of them as mad-scientist/sadists. But many at least thought of themselves as altruists working for the greater good. After all, they didn’t start by murdering Jews. They started by euthanizing retarded children, the handicapped, and crazy people. These individuals presented tragic cases, of course. But they were burdens to their families, a drag on social services, and a pool of bad genes that would only make future generations miserable. Clearly, the physicians’ duty was to seek the greatest good for greatest number, right? The experiments in the camps might produce some valuable knowledge that could help others, right? And the inmates were going to die anyway.
People like this Lefever invariably make an ends-justifies-means argument, and then the results don’t turn out to fit the ends all. The torture doesn’t work, doesn’t produce good intell. The medical experiments don’t go anywhere. Both just get more depraved, elaborate, and sordid as the effort proceeds. Yet practitioner’s belief in the efficacy and practical value of his crimes, if anything, increases as their futility becomes clearer.
Why? Why does ethical blindness lead to practical blindness? Why do utilitarian justifications so often lead to an anti-utilitarian preference for impractical and unsuccessful “solutions”?
The answer is that our ethics are an expression of what we really want to achieve. Immanuel Kant taught us that morality was an expression of our desires, not the product of rational assessment of our experience. Morality imagines the way that things should be, the way that we’d like them to be, and pushes us to do something to bring the desired result about.
The learned Lefever’s ethical stance feeds the depraved fiasco that is the “War on Terror” because, concsiously or not, he and his ilk chose depravity as their goal, not just their means. The moral and practical consequences were implicit in their ethical premises and thus inevitible and completely unsurprising. Ethics are practical guidelines, not ideals that we can set aside when pursuing practical matters. When we try, as Lefever has done, we just select a different ethic.
depraved
That’s the bottom line. They have become the perfect mirror of the evil they claim to be against — means justify ends.
The way moral order gets restored is by the leadership taking a strong stance. We have to try these people and put them in jail. Anything less will let this fester and grow. It needs to be repudiated clearly and absolutely.
What is this?
They had a meeting in which they got the marching orders to use their skills as psychologists (not just psychologists, but psychologists specializing in torture), to “help America”, at a meeting in the summer before September 11th? Wow. This is just like the surveillance stuff, which according to Joe Nacchio, was being ordered up six months before September 11th. Who gave Joseph Matarazzo the new mission and marching orders for military psychologists before September 11th?