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	<title>Comments on: Jon Tester: &#8220;A Deal&#8217;s a Deal&#8221; (Even If They&#8217;re Stealing You Blind)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/</link>
	<description>Firedoglake weblog</description>
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		<title>By: OrganicGeorge</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889363</link>
		<dc:creator>OrganicGeorge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889363</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Jon beat the chosen one from DNC in the Dem primary.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon beat the chosen one from DNC in the Dem primary.</p>
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		<title>By: ImperialFlow</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889312</link>
		<dc:creator>ImperialFlow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889312</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You’ll know economic recovery is coming when derivative markets are regulated (or suspended), and Citi, BofA, AIGFP, and a handful of others are forced into conservatorship or liquidated.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Until then, we’ll hit bottom and skiff along indefinitely.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You’ll know economic recovery is coming when derivative markets are regulated (or suspended), and Citi, BofA, AIGFP, and a handful of others are forced into conservatorship or liquidated.</p>
<p>Until then, we’ll hit bottom and skiff along indefinitely.</p>
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		<title>By: milly</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889293</link>
		<dc:creator>milly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889293</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Isn’t Jon Tester a Rahm recruit? Thought he was a fluke. Not.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn’t Jon Tester a Rahm recruit? Thought he was a fluke. Not.</p>
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		<title>By: pdaly</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889284</link>
		<dc:creator>pdaly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889284</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Around US tax deadline time this month, I heard the goverment (Congress or the IRS?) made a deal for investors who lost money in the Madoff scandal. Investors got to recoup a majority of their losses through tax write offs.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The reasoning: they were swindled.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;No similar write offs for the small fry homeowners, I believe, who were similarly swindled out of their houses, 401K retirement funds, and credit card debts via Wall Street, AIG and friends.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Around US tax deadline time this month, I heard the goverment (Congress or the IRS?) made a deal for investors who lost money in the Madoff scandal. Investors got to recoup a majority of their losses through tax write offs.</p>
<p>The reasoning: they were swindled.</p>
<p>No similar write offs for the small fry homeowners, I believe, who were similarly swindled out of their houses, 401K retirement funds, and credit card debts via Wall Street, AIG and friends.</p>
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		<title>By: ncwoman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889257</link>
		<dc:creator>ncwoman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889257</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;If it’s any consolation, after reading your post I got busy emailing not only Sen. Tester, but the other fifteen senators listed on Matt Renner’s truthout report last Wed. who were opposing S. 61 at that time. I’d already called Sen. Hagan and Blue Dog Shuler last week, asking them to support homeowners. Just for good measure, I asked Tester et al to sponser a bill to investige the rats that got us into this mess, as Bill Black suggests. No chance of that, but they need to hear it anyway. Hang in there.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it’s any consolation, after reading your post I got busy emailing not only Sen. Tester, but the other fifteen senators listed on Matt Renner’s truthout report last Wed. who were opposing S. 61 at that time. I’d already called Sen. Hagan and Blue Dog Shuler last week, asking them to support homeowners. Just for good measure, I asked Tester et al to sponser a bill to investige the rats that got us into this mess, as Bill Black suggests. No chance of that, but they need to hear it anyway. Hang in there.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Welsh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889245</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Welsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:47:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;The entire mortgage and securitization bubbles were based on fraud, as I’ve been noting for some time.  Virtually every major bank, brokerage and credit rating executive should be being investigated for fraud.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The entire mortgage and securitization bubbles were based on fraud, as I’ve been noting for some time.  Virtually every major bank, brokerage and credit rating executive should be being investigated for fraud.</p>
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		<title>By: OrganicGeorge</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889242</link>
		<dc:creator>OrganicGeorge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Most of the banks in Montana are Community banks.  Cram downs could be devastating to these independent banks, which are the only banks lending money today.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Maybe we should be taking about a tiered approach to cram downs with the obvious fraud being open to restructuring by the courts, as opposed to people who got in over their heads due to greed.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the banks in Montana are Community banks.  Cram downs could be devastating to these independent banks, which are the only banks lending money today.</p>
<p>Maybe we should be taking about a tiered approach to cram downs with the obvious fraud being open to restructuring by the courts, as opposed to people who got in over their heads due to greed.</p>
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		<title>By: damagedone</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889238</link>
		<dc:creator>damagedone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;No offense intended.  ‘Cramdown’ is one of those Frank Luntz words.  It makes it sound like the prepetrators - the banks/mortgage companies - are being mistreated.  Can we come up with a better term?  How about ‘mark-to-market’ for the individual piece of property being foreclosed.  If the fair market value of the property has declined then marking down the mortgage makes sense unless of course you were one of the tricksters/con-men setting up the original scheme.  Forcing to the mortgage holders to value the property for what it is currently worth seems fair to me.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No offense intended.  ‘Cramdown’ is one of those Frank Luntz words.  It makes it sound like the prepetrators &#8211; the banks/mortgage companies &#8211; are being mistreated.  Can we come up with a better term?  How about ‘mark-to-market’ for the individual piece of property being foreclosed.  If the fair market value of the property has declined then marking down the mortgage makes sense unless of course you were one of the tricksters/con-men setting up the original scheme.  Forcing to the mortgage holders to value the property for what it is currently worth seems fair to me.</p>
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		<title>By: robspierre</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889237</link>
		<dc:creator>robspierre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Also, like many commentators these days, Timr seems to misunderstand what credit is. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Credit is money lent against the borrower’s future earnings (if the borrower had the money already, he’d hardly need to borrow). It is called “credit” (from the Latin “credere”, to believe) because the creditor believes that the borrower will, in fact, earn the money and a little more, which becomes the creditor’s interest. The creditor is essentially betting on the debtor’s abilities and future good luck.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If, due to unforeseen circumstances, the debtor does not earn what was expected, the debtor goes bankrupt and the creditor loses his bet. For him, it’s just a cost of doing business, if he’s generally good at picking his bets. If he isn’t, then HE goes bankrupt and goes into another line of work.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So, even if it were true that small borrowers were leaving banks holding the bag, I can’t see how you the Right can be so fast to blame the borrower for the creditor’s lack of core competence as a businessman.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Then there is the fraud angle that this article illuminates. The kind of fraud described happens when the creditor does not really “credit” (believe) that the borrower can ever earn the amount of money being loaned. Yet he pretends that he does and makes the loan anyway. He may even doctor up the borrower’s application to make it more believable to anyone else that looks and may add money to the original request. Why? Because he does not care whether the principle is returned and is not planning to live on interest paid. He is lending someone else’s money and getting a fat commission and fees for doing so.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So when I hear someone vilifying poor borrowers who can’t make payments in a looming Depression, I say, be careful what you believe/credit and, please, don’t sign anything when you talk to your banker. You’ll be walking in just when he is starting to fear that people are getting too smart.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, like many commentators these days, Timr seems to misunderstand what credit is. </p>
<p>Credit is money lent against the borrower’s future earnings (if the borrower had the money already, he’d hardly need to borrow). It is called “credit” (from the Latin “credere”, to believe) because the creditor believes that the borrower will, in fact, earn the money and a little more, which becomes the creditor’s interest. The creditor is essentially betting on the debtor’s abilities and future good luck.</p>
<p>If, due to unforeseen circumstances, the debtor does not earn what was expected, the debtor goes bankrupt and the creditor loses his bet. For him, it’s just a cost of doing business, if he’s generally good at picking his bets. If he isn’t, then HE goes bankrupt and goes into another line of work.</p>
<p>So, even if it were true that small borrowers were leaving banks holding the bag, I can’t see how you the Right can be so fast to blame the borrower for the creditor’s lack of core competence as a businessman.</p>
<p>Then there is the fraud angle that this article illuminates. The kind of fraud described happens when the creditor does not really “credit” (believe) that the borrower can ever earn the amount of money being loaned. Yet he pretends that he does and makes the loan anyway. He may even doctor up the borrower’s application to make it more believable to anyone else that looks and may add money to the original request. Why? Because he does not care whether the principle is returned and is not planning to live on interest paid. He is lending someone else’s money and getting a fat commission and fees for doing so.</p>
<p>So when I hear someone vilifying poor borrowers who can’t make payments in a looming Depression, I say, be careful what you believe/credit and, please, don’t sign anything when you talk to your banker. You’ll be walking in just when he is starting to fear that people are getting too smart.</p>
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		<title>By: Synoia</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/28/jon-tester-a-deals-a-deal-even-if-theyre-stealing-you-blind/#comment-1889234</link>
		<dc:creator>Synoia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;The reason the Banks oppose cramdown for primary mortgages may be that they do not want many bankruptcy judges examining their business, and building a set of court records on their behavior.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That would set the scene for a very large class action lawsuit, with much evidence already in the court records, and really cut the amount of discovery and Bank obfuscation.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason the Banks oppose cramdown for primary mortgages may be that they do not want many bankruptcy judges examining their business, and building a set of court records on their behavior.</p>
<p>That would set the scene for a very large class action lawsuit, with much evidence already in the court records, and really cut the amount of discovery and Bank obfuscation.</p>
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