(Please welcome Jeff Kaye, a psychologist active in the anti-torture movement who works clinically with torture victims at Survivors International in San Francisco – jh)
A Washington Post article by Peter Finn and Joby Warrick has made a big splash, reporting that the Department of Defense had been warned in July 2002 that “torture” would produce “unreliable information” by the Joint Personal Recovery Agency.
Can we conclude from this that JPRA was against the use of coercive interrogation? In a word — no.
JPRA was an enthusiastic proponent of spreading SERE techniques into the operational realm. Even the caveats about the use of torture are supplemented by recommendations of interrogation techniques that amount at least to cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment (outlawed by treaty and domestic law, as much as torture), if not torture itself.
One comes away from the Washington Post article with the impression it was the consequence of a planned leak, probably by JPRA or someone close to the Pentagon, seeking to cover up the JPRA’s complicity in the torture program. For one thing, the revelations from the memo are not new; they were already revealed in the text of the recently released Senate Armed Service Committee report on detainee abuse. And then, consider the portion of the leaked memo, “Operational Issues Pertaining to the Use of Physical/Psychological Coercion in Interrogation,” that the Washington Post did not bother to report.
CONCLUSION: The application of extreme physical and or psychological duress (torture) has some serious operational deficits, most notably, the potential to result in unreliable information. This is not to say that the manipulation of the subject’s environment in an effort to dislocate their expectations and induce emotional responses is not effective. On the contrary, systematic manipulation of the subject’s environment is likely to result in a subject that can be exploited for intelligence information and other national strategic concerns.
“Exploited” for not just “intelligence information,” but “other national strategic concerns”? Hmmm… Perhaps this refers to the attempt to use torture to produce false confessions about supposed links between the perpetrators of 9/11 and Saddam Hussein.
In any case, JPRA, an organization whose supposed purpose is to be “the Department of Defense’s (DoD) executive agent for personnel recovery… responsible for coordinating and advancing joint personnel recovery capabilities,” was deeply implicated as a primary actor in the implementation of the torture program. You wouldn’t know this by reading the Washington Post article, which quotes former JPRA chief of staff, Daniel Baumgartner as saying “the agency ‘sent a lot of cautionary notes’ [to DoD] regarding harsh techniques.
“There is a difference between what we do in training and what the administration wanted the information for,” he said a telephone interview yesterday. “What the administration decided to do or not to do was up to the guys dealing with offensive prisoner operations. . . . We train our own people for the worst possible outcome . . . and obviously the United States government does not torture its own people.”
One could contrast this sanguine picture of a passive government bureaucracy meaning to do well with Lt. Col. Baumgartner’s attachment of the JPRA document, Physical Pressures Used In Resistance Training and Against American Prisoners and Detainees (undated), attached to the same memorandum Baumgartner sent to the Office of the Secretary of Defense General Counsel on July 26, 2002, which included the supposed warning memo published by the Washington Post.
In other JPRA materials, techniques designed to achieve these goals [i.e., "establish absolute control, induce dependence to meet needs, elicit compliance, shape cooperation"] include isolation or solitary confinement, induced physical weakness and exhaustion, degradation, conditioning, sensory deprivation, sensory overload, disruption of sleep and biorhythms, and manipulation of diet. Physical Pressures Used In Resistance Training and Against American Prisoners and Detainees. [p. 9, footnote 56]
The Washington Post article failed to note that there were three attachments to the July 26 memo from JPRA to DoD General Counsel. One was the attachment posted by the Washington Post (“Operational Issues”), one was the Physical Pressures document just quoted. The third attachment was a memorandum written by SERE psychologist Jerald Ogrisseg, “Psychological Effects of Resistance Training.”
I’ve written elsewhere on the Ogrisseg memo. In this work, he describes the statistics he gathered that demonstrated that SERE training was almost never harmful to its participants. That is not an accurate conclusion by Ogrisseg, and the published research using experiments on SERE trainees shows dramatic disruption of physiological processes by a majority of recruits undergoing SERE training. A study published in the June 2000 edition of Special Warfare [PDF] noted:
In some cases, the changes noted among the trainees were greater than the changes noted in patients undergoing heart surgery….
Changes in testosterone levels were similarly remarkable: In some cases, testosterone dropped from normal levels to castration levels within eight hours.
The most salient aspect of the Ogrisseg paper lies in the fact that it ostensibly reported that waterboarding under SERE training conditions caused minimal long-term psychological effects. But the SASC report notes that Ogrisseg’s report attributed that fact to “efforts the Air Force SERE program undertook to minimize the risk of temporary psychological effects of resistance training becoming long-term effects…. [mitigating] the risk of turning a “dramatic” experience into a “traumatic” experience.’”
It was Lt. Col. Baumgartner, so favorably quoted by the Washington Post, who forwarded all these memos to DoD, telling DoD’s General Counsel:
“While there is not much empirical data on the long term effects of physical pressures used in SERE schools (which fall well short of causing ‘grave psychological damage’), the psychological staff at the Air Force SERE school makes some interesting observations [] that suggest training techniques can be very effective in producing compliance while not causing any long term damage.” Memo from Lt Col Baumgartner to Office of the Secretary of Defense General Counsel… July 26, 2002
So much for all the warnings Baumgartner says JPRA made!
JPRA Creates Experimental Torture Lab at Guantanamo
Whatever caveats some at JPRA had about SERE methods, and belying the betrayal by Baumgarter in the Washington Post article, by late summer 2002, JPRA was actively soliciting its services again to DoD. For instance, there was this this September 9, 2003 email from Col. Randy Moulton, Commander of JPRA to Col. Mike Okita and a redacted addressee (possibly “Admiral Bird,” whom the text of the email addresses). Note, this was sent approximately two months after the so-called warning by JPRA:
There is a strong synergy between the fundamentals of both missions (resistance training and interrogation). Both rely heavily on environmental conditions, captivity psychology, and situation dominance and control. While I think this probably lies within DHS [Defense Human Intelligence Service, part of DIA] responsibility lines, recent history (to include discussions with DHS, USSOCOM, CIA) shows that no DoD entity has a firm grasp on any comprehensive approach to strategic debriefing/interrogation. Our subject matter experts (and certain Service SERE psychologist) have the most knowledge and depth within DoD on the captivity environment and exploitation. I think that JPRA/JFCOM needs to keep involved for reasons of TTP [Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures]/development and information sharing.
While Moulton said JPRA was not interested in active participation in the interrogations themselves, he apparently saw JPRA’s new mission as one of “advice, assistance and observation” to the interrogation program, i.e., JPRA would brain-trust the operation. Apparently, Lieutenant General Robert Wagner at USFJCOM thought JPRA was overstepping their charter, and Moulton emailed him back, noting that formally Wagner was correct. JPRA was aware of the dangers of “crossing the Rubicon into intel collection.” Moulton continued:
However there will be a need to be engaged in a symbiotic relationship with whatever entity is identified to manage the debriefing/interrogation program…. There may be a compromise position (my gut choice) whereby we could provide/assist in oversight, training, analysis, research, and TTP/development, while leaving actual debriefing/interrogation to those already assigned the responsibility.”
In other words, in many ways and from the very first contact between JPRA and the General Counsel of DoD in December 2001, JPRA tried to position itself as indispensable experts for the torture project being initiated by higher-ups in the Bush Administration. Attempts to paint JPRA as some kind of bureaucratic opponent of the drive towards harsher and harsher interrogation techniques simply does not fit the facts. The appearance of occasional warnings about the effects of torture reflect either a minority opinion within JPRA (a possibility), or a bureaucratic reflex of covering for oneself that is apparent throughout the discussions about implementing the JPRA/SERE program in an operational fashion.
At Guantanamo itself, JPRA/SERE techniques were integral in establishing an experimental regime of harsh interrogation, i.e., torture. JPRA and other Special Operations officers wanted to teach SERE methods to interrogators and the members of the Behavioral Science Consultation Teams (BSCTs), which included psychologists and psychiatrists attached to the intelligence task force.
According to the Levin report, in August 2002, “COL John P. Custer, then-assistant commandant of the U.S. Army Intelligence Center and School at Ft. Huachuca, Arizona” conducted a review of interrogations operations at Guantanamo. Custer called Guantanamo “America’s ‘Battle Lab’” in the war on terror, and recommended combining FBI and military techniques to extract “information by exploiting the detainee’s vulnerabilities.” The “Battle Lab” label stuck, though some, like Colonel Britt Mallow, of the Criminal Investigative Task Force, objected.
MG Dunlavey and later MG Miller referred to GTMO as a “Battle Lab” meaning that interrogations and other procedures there were to some degree experimental, and their lessons would benefit DOD in other places. While this was logical in terms of learning lessons, I personally objected to the implied philosophy that interrogators should experiment with untested methods, particularly those in which they were not trained.
Later, Dunlavey denied using the term, and Miller testified he couldn’t remember. Even so, within a week of Custer’s report, BSCT members and Gitmo interrogators were flying off to Fort Bragg to attend a training in the use of SERE techniques, run by JPRA and Lt. Col. Louie “Morgan” Banks, then Chief Psychologist for U.S. Special Forces Command. SERE psychologist Gary Percival and two other JPRA instructors, Joseph Witsch and Terrence Russell, taught the course. This training included instruction in disruption of sleep cycles and daily schedules, invasion of male prisoners space by female interrogators, placing prisoners in solitary confinement, use of phobias (“fear of spiders, of the dark or whatever”), hooding, hitting, use of military dogs, etc.
Approximately a week after the end of training, in the latter part of September, one of the JPRA instructors, Joseph Witsch, was having second thoughts, which he expressed in a memo to Col. Moulton and Lt. Col. Baumgartner, as well as leadership at Special Operations Command:
I believe the techniques and tactics that we use in training have applicability. What I am wrestling with is the implications of using these tactics as it relates to current legal constraints, the totally different motivations of the detainees, and the lack of direction of senior leadership within the [U.S. Government] on how to uniformly treat detainees. We are now attempting to educate lower level personnel in DoD and OGAs [other governmental agencies] with concepts and principles that are somewhat foreign to them and while it all sounds good they are not in a position nor do they have the depth of knowledge in these matters to effect change and do it in reasonable safety….
The handling of [Designated Unlawful Combatants] is a screwed up mess and everyone is scrambling to unscrew the mess … If we want a more profound role in this effort we need to sell our capabilities to the top level people in the USG and not spend our time trying to motivate the operators at the lower levels to sway their bosses. This is running the train backwards and that is a slow method to get somewhere. There are a lot of people in the USG intelligence community that still believe in the old paradigm and wonder just what we’re doing in their business.
Implementing the Torture Program
Whether or not anyone heard Witsch’s concerns, or those of others (Banks says that he, too, protested the use of SERE reverse-engineering, but his protest seems questionable, given his organizational role in the Gitmo training), on September 26, a high-level group of administration visitors arrived at Guantanamo, including Alberto Gonzales, David Addington, DoD General Counsel Jim Haynes, CIA General Counsel John Rizzo, and Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division, Michael Chertoff. One record of their meetings has been handed down in the form of minutes, including presentation by BSCT personnel, and a discussion of “harsh techniques”, sleep deprivation, hiding prisoners from the International Red Cross, including videotaping prisoners and possible use of “truth serum.” The experiment was well under way.
After the administration officials left, the decision was made to get approval for harsher interrogation methods similar to those taught by SERE.
According to MAJ Burney, the BSCT psychiatrist, “by early October there was increasing pressure to get ‘tougher’ with detainee interrogations but nobody was quite willing to define what ‘tougher’ meant…. MAJ Burney added that there was “a lot of pressure to use more coercive techniques” and that if the interrogation policy memo that LTC Phifer had asked him to write did not contain coercive techniques, then it “wasn’t going to go very far.”
On October 25, 2002, General James T. Hill, Commander at SOUTHCOM, forwarded the request to get “tougher” and use the proposed SERE techniques to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. While he worried about the legality of some of the techniques, particularly death threats, he urged the Chiefs to consider that he wanted “to have as many options as possible at my disposal.”
The Joint Chiefs hesitated. They asked for official comment from the different services. The Air Force reported back: “some of these techniques could be construed as ‘torture,’ as that crime is defined by 18 U.S.C. 2340.” The Navy responded more favorably, citing the need for better “counter-resistance techniques,” but asked for “more detailed interagency legal and policy review.” The Marine Corps balked. Some of the techniques (e.g., sensory deprivation, use of dogs, nudity, exposure to cold, 20 hour interrogations) “arguably violate federal law, and would expose our service members to possible prosecution.” The Army also cited “significant legal, policy and practical concerns,” noting the techniques probably violated Bush’s presidential order regarding “humane treatment” of detainees, and wanted more legal review.
Captain Jane Dalton, the Legal Counsel to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, testified to the SASC that she informed General Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, of the legal objections by the services. Myers would later say he didn’t remember any objections. Dalton then informed DoD General Counsel William Haynes of the military’s objections. He, too, would later testify that he was unaware of any objections, saw no memos to that effect.
Ultimately, General Myers, apparently at the behest of Haynes (who presumably was acting on behalf of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld) “quashed” Dalton’s review. Asked about dismissing JCS Legal Counsel review of the request for use of SERE/JPRA interrogation techniques at Guantanamo, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff stonewalled.
GEN Myers said that he had “no specific recollection” of discussing with CAPT Dalton her efforts to conduct an analysis of the October 11, 2002 GTMO request…. He said that while he “did not dispute” asking her to stop working on her analysis and acknowledged that Joint Staff records indicated that she did stop work on her analysis, he had “no recollection or doing so” and did “not recall anyone suggesting” to him that she stop her review.
Meanwhile, JPRA was already planning their next training exercise for Guantanamo interrogators. Guantanamo got a new commander, Major General Geoffrey Miller, and the battle over the use of interrogation methods shifted to the construction of an interrogation plan for Mohammed al Khatani, with the government obsessed with the need to “break the detainee and establish his role in the attacks of Sept[ember] 11,2001.” Approval for the plan came from the White House (emphasis in original):
A November 14, 2002 email from the GTMO Staff Judge Advocate LTC Diane Beaver to CITF lawyer stated, “[c]oncerning 63 [Khatani] my understanding is that NSC has weighed in and stated that intel on this guy is utmost matter of national security… We are driving forward with support of SOUTHCOM. Not sure anything else needs to be said.”
A great deal more needs to be said, but we will settle with this denouement for the present.
Rumsfeld, upset that action had not been taken on the October GTMO request for harsher techniques thundered, “I need a recommendation.” On November 27, 2002, Haynes notified Rumsfeld that he had received the concurrence of Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Doug Feith, and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (CJCS) General Richard Myers for most of the JPRA/SERE techniques. It’s not clear to what degree the Department of Justice’s Office of Legal Council’s August 1, 2002 (Bybee) memo played a role in the approval process. In any case, on December 2, 2002, Rumsfeld signed off on the GTMO interrogation plan. He couldn’t restrain himself from adding one final flourish:
In approving the techniques, the Secretary added a handwritten note at the bottom ofthe memo that questioned one ofthe limitations in the JTF-GTMO request… In reference to “the use of stress positions (like standing) for a maximum of four hours,” the Secretary wrote: “However, I stand for 8-10 hours a day. Why is standing limited to 4 hours?”
At last, the SERE reverse-engineered interrogation program, a hybrid of old CIA KUBARK interrogation strategies, especially the use of sensory deprivation, isolation, and debility, were joined to a haphazard group of SERE-originated techniques of varying levels of brutality, themselves gathered from a wide variety of historically derived torture techniques, from Nazi Germany, to the Soviet GPU, and the interrogation of American airmen by Chinese and North Koreans during the Korean War.
And behind it all was the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency. What motivated them? Were the primary actors really Special Forces or CIA, operating through JPRA? Or was it simply a case of a military bureaucracy run amuck, and a White House eager to use any tool at its command to justify policies of aggressive war and perpetuity of power? Hopefully, both investigations and criminal prosecutions of those who planned and implemented the torture program at high levels will bring us some answers.
The greatest obstacle to that lies in the fact that the responsibility for the crimes is spread throughout the Pentagon, intelligence agencies, and the Executive Branch, as high as the President and Vice President of the United States, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and a myriad of Cabinet officials and top government attorneys. The powers attached to these offices are formidable, and will seek to protect their own. Only exposure and wide protest over a lack of accountability will bring about the change this country needs, and the justice.



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Hi Jeff, welcome to the Lake!
now to read…
It’s great to be here, Elliott. Thanks!
I wonder if Donald Rumsfeld still works at the Pentagon…
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..onsultant/
If he is, I hope Gates has kept Rummy away from all documents produced under George Bush for 8 years.
Rummy & Cheney have been buddies for 3 decades and together they ruined America and our reputation in 8 short years.
Jeff this is great. Thanks so much for being here.
Your find about the Ogrisseg memo when the Senate Armed Services Committee Report came out was fascinating.
http://firedoglake.com/2009/04…..s-of-memo/
I’m still trying to understand if the Yoo/Bybee memo based its legal findings on safety of the SERE program on information they knew to be non-applicable.
I would imagine that an organization like JPRA has the same personnel risks that any prison system has. The type of people that may naturally be attracted to working in such a field need to be carefully screened so that persons who enjoy brutality are kept out.
I can’t imagine having to do some of the things that SERE instructors have to do. Can you?
3- Gates is the consummate bureaucrat, and his experience around Iran-Contra and more than one Senate confirmation hearing has made him quite adept in moving around scandals. He reportedly supported the release of the OLC memos, or that’s the public story, anyway.
Your find on Rumsfeld circa 2007 is worth following up. Is Cambone still with him? How often do Cheney and Rumsfeld meet over in Arlington?
It was Wonkette who noticed that Cheney’s new digs are “CIA-adjacent”, being practically across the street from the Company’s HQ.
Would somebody please tell John King and Gloria Bimboerger that what’s already out in the public record [was out in the public record before Obama released the torture memos] is a helluva lot more than a bunch of lawyers giving out lousy legal advice.
And also, that there are a lot more than the Democratic left saying we need an accounting of what happened, and who did it. “Mistakes were made” so lets all make nice and go to Lynnie’s house for chili Friday night is not an option.
Therefore.
Yeah that famous photo with Ford says it all:
http://pro.corbis.com/images/4…..&uid={C624A37A-D1E2-4B4C-97F9-ABF5DC54DDBE}
Like zombies, they keep coming back.
Jane, I’m very glad to be here.
I’m sure they knew the SERE info was at least in part, non-applicable. The whole point of the Ogrisseg memo — and I’d like to see it to be sure; why doesn’t the Washington Post publish it (maybe b/c it wouldn’t benefit the leaker) — is that it contains material both pro and con, and they took statistics from it, supposedly proving the safety of SERE training techniques, and a statement about the “minimal” physical or psychological damage (long-term) of waterboarding, but ignored any other caveats by Ogrisseg.
But Ogrisseg deserves obloquy for cooking the books on the stats for the SERE training results. He found less than 1% of SERE recruits had problems with the training, such they had to dropout. But published data on SERE, as noted in the article here, shows serious effects upon even volunteers for SERE training, and Ogrisseg ignored this material. (Or did he? We’ll have to see his report to be sure.)
Welcome to the Lake, Jeff.
Just lurking.
hey, J, excellent analysis as always. I even signed up here just to post a comment!
Two things i found interesting in the 2002 memo. the JPRA actually used the word “torture” in the memo, instead of the bush euphemism of enhanced interrogation.
Also, the JPRA, stated that over 90% of regular interrogations without torture were more effective. It later referenced that statement, saying something like, as we had noted at earlier time or something. Made me wonder if there was even earlier notice by them to bush team that regular interrogation more effective.
I like your analysis. but i think it is also appropriate to take an issue, like how many different agencies or persons notified Bush on different times that torture did not work, and list them as evidence for prosecutions.
And for those who might be following the saga of the torture scandal over at WashPo today, there’s an article by Mark Danner arguing that culpability for the torture is so widespread throughout the government, that prosecutions are superfluous (or nearly so), and what’s needed is a big bipartisan investigation to help educate the public about the evils of torture.
While I disagree re the prosecutions angle, he makes a good point, especially after reading the sobering news in another WP article today, which quotes a poll that says almost half of all Americans believe torture is okay in “terrorism” cases.
Then there’s the heinous David Broder, who shills for the old Bush administration, saying
“Deliberate… internally well-debated”… what universe of falsehoods does this man live in? (Well, he’s right about it being “deliberate” I suppose.)
Wow. That’s scary. Hopefully the coverage will help reduce that number. Even with that it’s still scary. Too many armchair warriors.
Patriotdaily, welcome to FDL. I’m glad I pulled you over here.
The use of the word “torture”, while not regular, was not unknown among all the memos and documents out there. As the article points out, the military branches told the Joint Chiefs Legal Counsel the techniques could be considered “torture” or violate anti-torture statutes.
My point about the leaked memo that warns of torture is that it was disingenous. What the memo meant by torture is a subset of all torture techniques, and the author was arguing for “environmental manipulation” (like sensory deprivation, exposure to cold, etc.), which is more like the classic KUBARK style torture, which doesn’t include waterboarding or beatings/walling, etc. The author just doesn’t call it torture.
It was also disingenuous in that it was being sent along with a bulk of other material that described all kinds of abusive techniques.
I’d say that one should think of the occasional warnings and caveats as a kind of cover story, a built-in CYA that was routinely used in one way or another by the proponents of the SERE torture. What makes it confusing is that there were genuine protests to its use as well.
Re non-torture interrogations, the literature carries the mantra as a truism that rapport-based interrogations (such as used by the FBI, for the most part) yield the best results. I think that’s true. But the statement, again, is always quoted by both sides in the torture debate, having gained the status of a cliche within the field. Even the KUBARK manual makes the point that rapport-based interrogations are best. These pro-torture types always argue the torture, uh, that is, “enhanced techniques”, is reserved for only a very small number. Only later, as in Vietnam, do you find out they tortured thousands, even tens of thousands.
Jeff, glad to see you here. About time!
Scary and depressing. There was the obligatory “partisan divide”, of course.
Just a preview of how torture, like a universal societal acid, degrades a society: its ideals, its morality, its laws.
Hell yes!
Do we think the WaPo has that memo?
I just finished rereading Chapter 4, Captivity, from Judith Herman’s book, Trauma and Recovery. It is a difficult read, but perfectly accords with your post. It gives the reader a sense of how persons feel who have been subjected to the torture process, under conditions of captivity.
This is a gruesome, terrible time. It confronts us with not only the evil of psychologists designing and teaching torture but experimenting on captured persons.
This episode in our history cannot go uninvestigated and unpunished. Human lives and personalities have been forever destroyed. Sanctioned by US policy. We cannot allow this searing truth to languish without the most consequential prosecutions taking place, after due investigation and careful weighing of the facts, after according all who are indicted every legal recourse they denied their victims.
Thank you for your informative post. Watching Feinstein talk this morning on CNN about putting this discussion behind the closed doors of the Intelligence Committee, I sympathize with her viewpoint because we have already seen the partisan Republican CYA screeding which will keep getting louder.
While the Party of Dicks wants to shove everything back into the mansized safe never to be examined, much less thoroughly investigated and resolved.
But the acceptance of torture by such a large segment of the American public cries out for knowledge, information, education and understanding.
How will the tension between these perspectives be resolved?
Spokesman Review, December 2008:
Spivey was Chief of the JPRA Policy and Oversight Division.
And Tate, Inc. does SERE training.
Totally incestuous relationships going on.
Two possibilities: either someone selectively leaked the memo they had to them (possibly someone from JPRA itself), and that’s all they have. Or they have access to some or all of the SASC documents, and selectively, for reasons of their own, singled out this one.
I’ve put out queries about whether Levin intends to post any of the supporting docs online, as the committee has done before. So far, no response.
I personally am after the “assessments” for Abu Zubayda’s torture – the ones that claim torture was necessary – but would not be harmful, the ones that claim some type of personality assessment, and any ongoing ones. To our knowledge he was the first one experimented on. We need the reports of that, including the raw data from which conclusions were drawn.
21 – The presence of a former president of the American Psychological Association is no surprise. When the story first broke about Matarazzo working as partner with Mitchell-Jensen, he denied any involvement in “the company’s operational decisions”. APA issued a passionless denial, tinged with anxiety over its own image:
Hey! He’s not with us anymore, so… no harm, no foul!
Other APA presidents associated with research or promulgation of torture include Donald Hebb, Harry Harlow, and Martin Seligman. Only Hebb admitted he was a part of secret programs, and fought (to some extent) to break the hold of secrecy over what was being done.
Jeff, great to have you here and very much appreciated.
Can you speak to the legality of these kinds of rationale, pressures, coercive methods, and incentives that top officials in the Bush Administration relied upon to insure that information of only specific kinds and predetermined outcomes was being used?
yeah, but from a legal perspective for george and dickie, it was not a very good CYA. For example, georgie can argue, hey jPRA did not oppose torture, they helped us with torture, and JPRA was just trying to CYA when it provided that pretextual notice to the government that torture is ineffective. But, that goes to JPRA officials’ state of mind, which is for jury to determine. Meanwhile, the jury is also told that another agency told Bush that his methods were torture and that torture was ineffective. not at all helpful to bush’s “defenses.”
We’re gonna see more of this as all the putative torture defendants kinda square off against each other, each trying to save their own ass, while also providing bits and pieces of evidence to be used against them all. :)
Another Spokesman article indicates that Matarazzo has a 1% stake in Mitchell Jessen. So he’s profiting off of torture.
http://www.spokesmanreview.com…..?ID=204358
19 – Herman’s book is a classic. “Recovery” from trauma is a relative term, as she makes clear. Torture changes you forever.
23 – Yes, I’d love to see that psychological assessment (as someone who has written some myself over the years). Of course, there are no instruments these psychologists have that would probably be psychometrically valid for use on someone like Zubaydah, not having been normed on a population anything like where AZ came from.
25 – I’m no lawyer, so whenever I talk about legalities, I have to do a terrible amount of research so that I can imagine I know what I’m talking about. But the actions of the Bush administration seem so full of crimes and unethical behavior and malfeasance that I suppose any attorney could have a field day collecting charges. That’s of course if we had a country where the old saying of “no one above the law” wasn’t the merest cant and cheapest of platitudes.
I agree with all you say. My fear is that books like Herman’s may have been reverse-engineered as well. It simply horrifies me that any psychologist would do such a thing.
Regarding the lack of instruments, normed for these folks. I so agree. But in that case we’re absolutely looking at an absence of objectivity. Especially if the assessing psychologist stood to financially gain by endorsing torture and prolonging it.
I’m trying to write a post on “the terrible intimacy of torture” – but it’s a very hard subject to approach – in a way that conveys immediacy.
Thanks for your post and comments. We’ll see what comes. I expect it will be years.
Or was it a case of the bureaucracy correctly reading the angst and will to revenge (not “retribution”, because its original meaning implies “just” consequences) of both Bush and Cheney, and Cheney’s far greater power and network to make what he wanted happen, including his ability to stifle or destroy the careers of those too professional to “get with the program”?
I look forward to your post. It sounds chilling.
Spokeman Review, August 29, 2007:
“Mitchell and Jessen are reportedly being paid $1,000 a day plus expenses for their CIA work” [at interrogation sites].
http://www.spokesmanreview.com…..?ID=207020
Torture can be very profitable.
Consultants to corporations were charging way more (during that time-frame) for doing trainings and so on. I bet this is under-reporting. I just don’t believe they bid that low!
I wouldn’t be surprised if we get the financial records from the govt – and find out it’s about $2500/day.
Although the Post won’t admit it, their new poll shows that it’s not just liberals who want accountability on torture.
As with, say, an EDS services contract, the magic is what’s “in spec” and what can be billed separately as “out of spec”. Defense contractors play that game better than anyone else.
Given Cheney and Rumsfeld’s use of chemical weapons and illegal drugs on American soldiers in 1974 and 1975 while part of President Ford’s national Security Council, instead of stopping the program they inherited from Nixon because it violated the Nuremberg Codes of 1947 and used soldiers as human test subjects in experiments that were not in any way beneficial to the soldiers, and may very well have caused them long term health problems. It violated the “do no harm clause” of physicians. Six of the soldiers/veterans have filed suit against the CIA, DOD and the Army over the program http://edgewoodtestvets.org/">Lawsuit website
Vietnam Veterans of America, et al. v. Central Intelligence Agency, et al.
Case No. CV-09-0037-CW, U.S.D.C. (N.D. Cal. 2009)
If the men involved in harming these soldiers more than 35 years ago were not bothered in harming our own soldiers, and as these veterans fought for recognition the Bush Administration did everything in it’s power to deny these men and or their widows information about the toxic exposures from 2001 – 2006, Secretary Nicholson sent the lists of names provided by Congressman Lane Evans and Ted Strickland in April 28, 2005 to Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on October 5, 2005, where he sent the lists to the office of SHAD, Shipboard Hazards where it could be buried in their workload until the Bush Administration left office. It would be embarassing to President Bush after claiming to go to war with Saddam Hussein for using Sarin and Mustard Gas on the Kurds, to have the American public learn that his Vice President and Secretary of Defense authorized human experiments using those same weapons and worse on young American men, more than 30 years ago.
These men were evil in 1974 and 1975 long before President Bush let them do these new acts of barbarism on “enemy coombatants”. Evil is something you know when you see it, and these men are evil.
I strongly suspect you’re right. Two to three hundred an hour, per person, discounted 10-20% for a “government rate” would be far more likely a fee structure than a paltry $125/hour. That’s the rate charged by an MSW/LISW, not Ph.D.’s with a specialization in torture. I wonder if they requested payment in Swiss Francs, spendable anywhere, or their home currencies, the RMB and the RUB.
There is a Gallup poll in the field this weekend on accountability for torture, with results due Monday afternoon.
Welcome, Jeff Kaye, thank you for this extraordinary report.
Jeff, Thank you for all your persistence in following up on this issue. I really appreciate all your work in helping to expose the atrocities that continue to be committed in the name of our “security”. I fear for the treatment of our own citizens in retribution for what has been going on with these “detainees”.
35 – pmorlan, thanks for doing the due diligence and looking closer at the WashPost stats. As you show, only 23% of the poll respondents call themselves “liberal”, so the results certainly look different when viewed from that angle. I hope readers go and look at your important analysis of this poll.
39 – Glad to to be here, and thanks.
40 – Thanks, psychpotter. That’s why everyone overseas is suddenly Canadian, eh?
Two additions:
A link to the Special Warfare article which I quoted in the article. The full title of the article is “Assessment of humans experiencing uncontrollable stress: The SERE course”. I think I had the date wrong in the article; it’s July 1, 2000 (plenty of time for Ogrisseg to read it, though, before making his report).
Btw, the SW article quoted has as lead author a self-proclaimed CIA researcher, Dr. CA Morgan III. He has been reported to be a “senior research scientist on the behavioral science staff of the Central Intelligence Agency”. He also is labeled the same on an official APA posting. In the Intelligence Science Board’s publication, Educing Information (large PDF), he lists his affiliation as the “Intelligence Technology Innovation Center.” According to the National Science Foundation, ITIC “falls administratively under the Central Intelligence Agency but is funded separately.” A US News & World story in November 2006 also directly linked ITIC to the CIA.
So, we have CIA researchers who were involved with SERE, at least in an investigative, research capacity, even before Bush was elected, and who knew how bad SERE techniques really were. I think this brings an entirely new aspect to the good faith/bad faith aspect of the picture. I hope to bring this aspect of the story out in future articles, but you are free to use the fact if you wish.
Also, I’d like to put in a plug for Steven Miles’ excellent book, Oath Betrayed: America’s Torture Doctors. It includes a fascinating analysis of the interrogation log of al Qahtani, seeing in it evidence of an interrogation “experiment” upon a prisoner.
Very impressive article, Jeff, and great to see you at FDL. Thanks for all the hard work you do and your perseverance.
On a related note, one of the things that has caused me more concern than almost anything else lately was the Center for Constitutional Rights press release on Friday:
Congratulations to you and Firedoglake.
It’s important that your detailed, forcefully stated, and firsthand thoughts on this whole disastrous matter reach the widest possible audience.