I can but repeat what I posted at TBogg’s place earlier:

Let us be crystal clear. There is nothing to parse, quibble, or defend. Americans, acting in an official capacity tortured people. Other Americans, also acting in an official capacity, ordered them to do so and offered legal cover for doing so. We tried, imprisoned, and even executed Japanese and Germans for exactly the same acts after WW II, defining them as torture. The Armed Forces SERE Program defines them as torture. Under the United Nations’ Convention on Torture, to which we are a signatory, we have an absolute, unconditional, affirmative obligation to investigate all accusations of torture and to prosecute and punish anyone who has committed, ordered, or enabled torture. This is the law. It is binding law in the United States. We have to investigate and prosecute everyone involved or we cease to be a nation of laws. It does not matter if it works. It does not matter what our enemies do. It does not matter if there is a ticking timebomb. It is quite simply illegal to torture.

Can’t criminalize what are already criminal acts.

RIP Bea, she will be missed.

We also cannot allow Eric Holder to politicize the Justice Department and do the White House’s bidding as his predecessors did. If Barack Obama was elected to do one thing, it was to hire an Attorney General who would return the DoJ to its former levelheadedness.

teddy! wonderful explanation of the difference between criminalizing policy differences and a mandatory criminal investigation.

thank you

Thanks, Teddy, and happy holiday in Vancouver to you.

“Maude” was one iconic ballsy woman…RIP, Bea, Maude and all the roles you played.

The appalling apologia spewing out of Teh Village these days is as repellent as the skunk roadkill I drove past earlier today. The stench lingers long after they tuck themselves into their little lavender-scented blankies and drift into sleep murmuring, surely the rabble will be happy with cake….

Yup, but if, as Digby pointed out today, if The Village cannot grasp the illegality or immorality of torture, then bring on the debate about effectiveness. I am quite sure they will be sorry they wished for it.

It’s horrid to have to have the debate over effectiveness, but these monsters in control of our political discourse seem unable to grasp torture’s illegality or immorality. So let’s let them argue effectiveness: release the memos and let’s see the results.

More tears shed over answered prayers than unanswered ones.

Yes, and all this talk about “not re-litigating the past” presumes there was litigation already. I don’t remember it; do you?

hi suzanne!

i bet you are looking forward to your vacation – be sure to wave as your plane flies over netarts bay.

I refuse to be suckered into the effectiveness debate. It is totally irrelevant to the fact that torture violates international and national law and morality. Arguing effectiveness (which is a false argument anyway) serves to morally legitimate it.

Hey, Teddy! Have a wonderful time in Vancouver.

Quibble:

If the Obama Justice Department investigated and indicted Bush Administration officials for withdrawing from the Kyoto Treaty, that would be criminalizing policy differences.

There’s prolly some criminality in this. Money for the oil buds.

The two Bush terms did resemble a national lobotomy, still, I think we’d remember if the perps had already received justice.

If I didn’t know better I’d swear the Bush defenders just make shit up.

Yeah, but if Cheney wants some to be released, I say they all become public.

Yes, we will wave! We want to leave before the worldwide travel restrictions go into effect as the WHO overreacts to the swine flu pandemic. Don’t mind getting stuck in Vancouver, but I’d hate to be stuck here!

Happy times in Vancouver, Teddy…Hope it don’t rain on you.

;>)

No amount of evidence to the contrary will prevent them from claiming torture IS effective every time the subject comes up. If it didn’t work Jack Bauer wouldn’t use it, right?

You quoted:

and Germans for exactly the same acts after WW II

One of the great mysteries to myself about what happened during WWII was how could those people accept or turn a blind eye to what was happening? Well, now I know.

If I didn’t know better I’d swear the Bush defenders just make shit up.

But why? What’s in it for ‘em?

((((((((((((((((((((((((Teddy)))))))))))))))))))))))))

Thank you, so much, Teddy, and AMEN !!!!!!!

You’re coming to my neck of the woods :)(I live in Vancouver.) How cool :)
I’d love to meet up if you have time and inclination.
My email is in my profile :)

Actually, I was hoping to talk with you. I’m setting up speaking engagements about my mission, in the name of my husband, Dan, to stop torture as the law, policy and practice of the United States, and to hold those responsible accountable. I’ve got groups who have asked for me in Seattle and Portland, so far, it would be great to continue on to San Francisco. Any ideas of groups in your area who might be interested ?

Standing with you, for justice and accountability,
For Dan,
Heather

At least you are headed the right direction. Enjoy and try to forget the fuckery for a bit.

Hey, db! What cha got?

if ya get stuck in vancouver, teddy, i’ll drive the get-away car for your run to the border.

Do you know how hard it was to make a list of things the Bush Administration SHOULDN’T be investigated and indicted for? Think of everything I had to leave out! Katrina, Plame, Iraq, the conduct of the Afghan war, not getting OBL, Halliburton warprofiteering…. But, yes, the Kyoto Treaty cutout always seemed to me to be tied to the oilmen’s patrons.

Reinforces their worldview. If real facts don’t support their prejudices they have to invent some.

Too funny! There was nothing bushco did without a rip-off to taxpayers.

Granted, that was hard work.

As I tell my classes (in discussing the need for cultural relativism in ethnographic research), it would be nice to believe that, because the Nazi holocaust or the Rwandan genocide are monstrous acts, that those who perpetrated them were monsters. Unfortunately they were not. They were ordinary, decent people just like you and me. If we make them into monsters, we make their acts incomprehensible and we will never be able to stop them from happening again.

Having Cheney become Mr Release-The-Memos! has to be one of the strangest through-the-looking-glass moments in modern American political history. It’s also a clear indication that the man has finally lost his mind.

A pictorial tribute to J.G. Ballard, Loo Hoo.

;>)

Thanks, db.

That’s an amazing list. The people who implemented all those atrocious policies really do belong in jail, which is different from saying they should be prosecuted for those “policy differences.”

Please note that he is being highly selective about what should be released.

Teddy, the best sushi on this continent is at Tojo in Vancouver. You have to try it.

I seriously think (based on the way he’s breathing) that he knows he’ll outlive any prosecution. He doesn’t give a rip about his place in history or that of his family, he only cares about his circumstances now.

hehehehehe nicely done db

I asked for that, too…

You are sick, db, in a healthy way!

This would be my vehicle of choice. Never knew it even sports gull-wing doors. Too COOL!

Nicely done, in a delightfully sick and twisted way.

lmao – twould be perfect and follows the old maxim – hide in plain sight

And the Germans didn’t have Peggy Noonan to tell them to “just keep walking.”

Well, his bluffs and bullshit have taken him this far…He’s in for the full nickel ride by now…And if worse came to worse, he could always just ‘die’ like Ken Lay and it’s boat drinks with a shaker of salt and a bad moustache on Vesco’s veranda forevermore.

He really has played America like a cheap violin, IMO.

Hi, Heather!

Thanks for your unceasing advocacy about torture. Your story has been an inspiration.

I will email you.

Teddy

Safe travels, Teddy, and a wonderful holiday!

I love mascot-themed transportation. I had a coworker who’s wife had left him to run off with the pilot of the Tony The Tiger hot-air balloon (like… who wouldn’t?). It had been many years but he hadn’t yet accepted the tragic comedy of the situation and found it slightly irritating when I would occasionally inject a “They’rrrrre GREAT!” into a conversation.

!

&

!

Thanks for the recommend

Ron loved to say that ridin’ bareback ain’t just for horses..

No child left behind was a boondoggle from the start. Remember, it was a way to make the bush family money, and lower standards at schools. The gop can not allow for education of the masses. They can’t allow that much thinking, as it does them no good. Is there not enough information to investigate as a crime?

I love the part in the narrative where the Republicans got handed the Ballard story in a glossy binder at the ‘80 convention and thought it was a legit think-tank piece.

Kind of shows you where the kinks were all along.

;>)

I remember seeing the Oscar Mayer weinermobile in SoCal in the early 70’s!

And left us his stunningly amoral offspring to boot. Maybe he and Lynne had a competition with OldBar and GHWB.

Now, that’s a Grand Old Party-favor.

Thanks.

Except for holidays to see family, we haven’t had a real vacation in over four years. I know it was that long ago because we got matching Hawaii 05 t-shirts on New Years Day.

I expect that counts as an epiphany.

Dude that is cold. But irresistable.

Ah, the ‘whelping the Hellspawn’ contest…I hear they do that in vitro now.

;>)

hitting brain bleach button – double strength even

I’m looking for the double industrial strength after the last one.

You force me to unleash the fury, Suz.

Boys?

;>)

hahahahaha laughter is the best brain bleach there is dood

Gaack!

Hope you got a delivery. Apparently db’s on a roll tonite.

I’m fading here so it’s off to bed. Take care all.

Tanker truck load.

g’nite dr dick

g’nite

G’nite Doc.

Guess I will hit it too. Splendid dreams to all.

g’nite ratfood

Ugly. Why you give us HER?

If they get away with the ‘criminalizing policy differences’ canard this time, it will be I who will require the bleach, I’m afraid…So save some for a Canadian who’s down on their luck.

;>)

Night DD and RF.

Hear, hear, Teddy.

Enjoy your vacation: Don’t read any news.

(And thanks for the Bea Arthur.)

gotcher back db — the best stuff comes in from canada yanno

Damn, Teddy – Did Rachel Maddow hire you to write her show intros?
Very nicely put.

She’s still the ‘chosen one’ at the moment, Loo Hoo…These formerly employed masters of the known universe are having difficulty letting go of their rancid candy.
As long as her sideshow appeal still translates into column inches and pixel dust they will champion her.

the only choice i want her to have is between medium security prison or maximum secuirty prison.

The only problem with Canada is that it’s full of Canadians, Suz…and the worst ones are where our intrepid Teddy is travelling – The belly of the beast.

;>)

These guys play for keeps, ya know . .*G*

Great read, thanks TP. Happy Holiday.

Vancouver. The food and music alone is reason to go, weather be damned.

Then, there’s the whole Puget Sound thang . . . god’s country, eye candy wise.

I’m curious to see how her “Help pay my Lawyers!” fund goes.

i hope it is an absolute failure

I hope so too. Her faithfuls are broke, but Bill Kristol, et.al, might spring for it…

I’m sure there will be plenty of marks ponying up their life savings for this great white dope. After all, she can see the soul of Russia from her front stoop and shit.

;>)

according to et, her favorable numbers are down in alaska. her only hope is for out of staters donating – and if that impeachment talk gets beyond talk, those will dry up. also.

Some of that cash should go toward hush money, er, an educational contribution for Levi. After all, a mind is a terrible thing to waste, you betcha.

;>)

Well, that’s a high compliment!

Yeah, Bloody Bill’s got that extra two and fifty K sitting around.

As if he’d ever share with anyone!

This is an excellent piece, Teddy. Thanks.

(Hey, newt!)

what loohoo and newton said teddy. dayam good post.

That Levi Johnston can come sit by me.

I got plenty to hush him up with over here.

Either that or you have a contact with her researchers :-)
Really, you managed to crystallize the issue very well.

Hey Loo Hoo!

I am very tired of the ‘criminalizing policy differences’ bullshit, myself.

Unless they want to be The Torture Party for all time. Which they may want to be.

Make them own it.

Don’t let those hockey players break your heart, Teddy. All they want to do is score.

;>)

pottery barn rules – they broke it – they own it.

Isn’t he a hunk? Wonder what he saw in Bristol. (Nevermind…)

Still lotsa time to turn him, LooHoo. Either to the more mature ladies or to my team.

If the Obama Justice Department investigated and indicted Bush Administration officials for torture, for developing the legal framework for that torture, and for proposing, permitting, and encouraging that torture, is that criminalizing policy differences?

A resounding NO!

And, anyone who calls it that is politicizing crime, as is anyone who, for political reasons, fails to perform their constitutional duty to prosecute such crimes.

Sorry it took me so long to reply, Teddy. I’m trying to do five different things at once.

Thank you so much. I only hope I’m actually opening people’s eyes, and minds, and hearts, and cause them to act.

Looking forward to hearing from you,
and hopefully meeting you.
Hugs,
Heather

(Off to continue my other projects for the evening. Have a lovely restful sleep, everyone, when you get there, and an inspiring day tomorrow.)

g’nite chacounne

At what point on the calendar does not prosecuting war criminals make Obama and Holder war criminals?

Other Americans, also acting in an official capacity, ordered them to do so and offered legal cover for doing so. We tried, imprisoned, and even executed Japanese and Germans for exactly the same acts after WW II, defining them as torture.

But our “professionals” were acting in “good faith,” unlike those Japanese and Germans.

nite, heather.

I’ll be in touch.

At what point on the calendar does not prosecuting war criminals make Obama and Holder war criminals?

At the very next war crime committed by an undeterred American.

late late nite upstairs

Well done Teddy. Thanks.

Why is no one saying that the Republicans are politicizing a criminal case in order to obstruct justice?

Republicans didn’t want to use law enforcement to shut down al Qaeda.

A Democratic administration is now gun-shy of using law enforcement to prosecute actions that are clearly war crimes.

If there is no law enforcement, there is no rule of law.