Demagogue: The Fight To Save Democracy From Its Worst Enemies.
The problem of demagogues – political figures who fashion themselves as leaders of the masses and who will go to almost any extreme to hold and expand their power — is one that has stalked democracy from its very beginnings. It is one generated by the tension at the very heart of democracy – if political power is invested in, and derived from the will of the people, how to protect against leaders who stir up the people’s passions for their own destructive ends? In this book, an impressive work of philosophy and political science that is both rigorous and accessible, writer, analyst, and current candidate for Lt. Governor of Virginia Michael Signer explores the problem of the demagogue from the ancient Greeks down to the present day.
Signer defines the demagogue – from the Greek “leader” (agogos) of “the people” (demos) –according to four rules: “(1) They fashion themselves as a man or a woman of the common people, as opposed to the elites; (2) their politics depends on a powerful, visceral connection with the people that dramatically transcends ordinary political popularity; (3) They manipulate this connection, and the raging popularity it affords, for their own benefit and ambition; (4) they threaten or outright break established rules of conduct, and even the law.” Huey Long, Muqtada al-Sadr, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hugo Chavez, and of course Benito Mussolini and Adolph Hitler are among the figures analyzed by the author, who suggests that “these political leaders are players in a drama much larger than themselves: The struggle of democracy to survive.”
Signer begins by looking at the different ways in which Plato and Aristotle perceived and proposed to deal with the problem of demagogues. Plato proposed to create and strictly maintain an elite class of “Guardians,” who would be conditioned from birth to rule over the people. Aristotle, on the other hand, believed in the ability of the people to learn to resist the demagogue. In Signers interpretation, “the demagogue is the product of the people, and only the people can stop him.”
These differing views of the role that the people could and should rightly play in their own governance were mirrored in the creation of our own American republic, with leaders such as Alexander Hamilton and James Madison presenting the masses as something to be protected against, with Thomas Jefferson championing the innate ability of the people to cultivate the habits effective self-governance. In this, Signer comes down on the side of Jefferson. “There’s a reason America has not seen a national-level demagogue seriously threaten the Constitution,” he writes. “Most Americans…will tell you that they are wary of strong men, of the accumulation of power in single leaders, and of the kinds of mass waves of emotions perpetuated by demagogues. These basic, often unnoticed, second-nature attitudes and beliefs among Americans have served as the ultimate barrier to demagogues.”
The cultivation of a constitutional conscience, then, is one way of managing and protecting against the demagogue. In a particularly compelling chapter on the contemporary struggle for democracy, Signer explores the role that neocons such as Bill Kristol and Robert Kagan – whom he distinguishes from neoconservatives, intellectuals such as Nathan Glazer and Irving Kristol who moved rightward from Trotskyism to conservatism, but whose ideas remained anchored in the real world – played in promoting the Iraq war on the idea that the United States could, with little difficulty, remove its regime and install a democracy in its place. Events have, of course, proven them disastrously wrong. Signer locates the source of their error in the fact that the neocons, despite their public praise for democracy, envisioned a new order for Iraq in which the Iraqi people themselves were almost entirely absent – acted upon by elites carrying out the theories of the neocons, in service of the American imperium. Signer traces the influence on the neocons of the philosopher Leo Strauss, who himself dealt with the problem of the demagogue by suggesting that the people should be guided toward right behavior through “noble lies” told to them by trained elites.
Discussing the idea of American exceptionalism, Signer closes with an argument in favor of American “exemplarism.” In an interview that I conducted with Mike shortly after his book was released, he defined this as America “draw[ing] other nations to us through moral conduct, and through our pursuit of a world of rules which everybody would abide by, and through our generosity, and through talking to and communicating with the peoples of the world.” This is distinct from what Signer terms “vulgar exceptionalism,” which is “when America starts viewing ourselves as an exception to the moral rules and the legal culture that governs the world community of which we’re a part, and we say we should be different, we don’t have to play by everybody else’s rules.”
In light of the events of the past few weeks, the debate about government secrecy and torture, Signer’s book couldn’t come at a better time. The Bush-Cheney administration is one that sought, perhaps more than any other in American history, to remove the people from the process of government. A key question raised in the last few weeks is whether the Bush administration’s stunning arrogation of power to the executive branch was only a detour in America’s progression toward greater freedom (a “hiccup” as Signer calls the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798) or whether it represented a more serious challenge to American values. A recent poll showing that some 70% of Americans believe that torture is permissible in some cases underlines the salience of this issue for our democracy.
Michael Signer is with us tonight to discuss his book.



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Michael, Welcome to the Lake.
Matt, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Thank you to FDL for having me! I’m really looking forward to this session and to your questions.
Mike, thanks for being with us.
Looking at the question that I raised in my post, how do you think your argument about demagogues relates to the torture debate? What does the fact that a good portion of Americans approve of torture in some cases say about our constitutional conscience?
Good Afternoon Mike and Matt and welcome to FDL.
Mike, I have not had an opportunity to read the book but find it interesting that you have used Huey Long as one of the demagogues you studied. In reading his bio (T Harry Williams), it always seemed to me that the presence of Huey Long helped to pull FDR to the left in order to forestall the demagoguery.
Do we have a left wing (pseudo) demagogue that can help pull Obama to the left?
Thanks, Matt. It’s a terrific question and a challenging one. At core, I’m quite optimistic about the strength of America’s “constitutional conscience” — the underlying bedrock of cultural values around constitutionalism that I think have borne us quite well through the tests that often bring democracies to their knees. This is not to say, however, that all is well. I think the Bush years warrant some pause.
The question is the implication of the torture policies for how we think about the American people during the bush years. On the one hand, some branches of government were being operated by hard-core ideologues who were committed essentially to hoodwinking the public, then it doesn’t make sense to blame the people.
More below…
As a technical note: there is a “Reply” button in the lower right hand of each comment. Clicking “Reply” will pre-fill the name of the commenter and the comment number being replied to. (Makes it easier to follow along as comments and questions are generated)
If, on the other hand, the people knew — or had reason to suspect — that torture was occurring, then you could conclude that we’ve got a certain slippage in the militancy over rights and constitutionalism that I argue in the book has always protected America.
I’m disturbed by reports that some members of Congress — as the people’s representatives — knew about the torture provisions and didn’t protest. I’m also disturbed by these recent polls, which probably haven’t been helped by shows like 24 which have glorified the supposed truth-finding ability of torture.
As the book argues, constitutionalism begins and ends with the people and their values and so a culture where torture is accepted and even approved needs to be warded against.
And as a comment on demagoguery in general – I think we are somewhat fortunate in that the Republicans seem to keep proffering folks like Reagan and Bush II since they could be (seemingly) more easily controlled rather than demagogues with brains.
My $.02
Dan, thanks for the question. I don’t agree with the premise — that President Obama needs to be pulled to the left — but do agree with your history, which is that Huey Long posed a very serious political challenge to FDR precisely because he connected with millions of poor Americans — masses — who were looking for a savior. I think that Barack Obama’s deep popularity among ordinary American people probably solves your question right there — not only are the people not looking for a demagogue right now; he’s popular enough among them that I think he’d be unthreatened by one that arrived. This is heartening to me because we are certainly entering a period of economic turmoil unparalleled in recent decades. The last “great era” of demagoguery was the 1930s, where America and Europe saw incredible threats from democracy’s ancient enemy. We might expect more of the same today.
Dan, I have a section in the book explaining why I don’t think George W. Bush was a demagogue. He did not really identify as a man of the common people — brush-clearing aside, it was clear to most Americans that he was a scion of elite institutions and a far cry from a Huey Long. And more importantly, he never triggered the kind of intense emotional reaction among the people that demagogues require. He may have wanted to be a demagogue, and he certainly made attempts at demagoguery (I would count staging the initial vote to authorize force in Iraq a mere three weeks before the mid-term Congressional elections in 2002 as a prime example), but the simple fact is he was not one — he just wasn’t good enough.
Michael, welcome!
I’m about halfway through the book, and it has been a delight to read. Your four-fold definition of a demagogue is especially helpful for unpacking what makes them so dangerous.
The interplay of parts 2 and 3 — the visceralness of a demagogue’s connection to the people, and the willingness to use this in a manipulative fashion — are at the heart of what makes part 4 possible.
Mike, in re: your comment that ‘the last “great era” of demagoguery was the 1930s, yesterday FDL held a discussion of Rick Perlstein’s Nixonland, in which Perlstein explored the origins and consequences of Richard Nixon’s brand of divisive politics. Whether or not Nixon himself meets the definition of demagogue, it seems to me that he bequeathed to the modern GOP a political/ideological argumentative framework that was, in a sense, “demagogic.” Do you agree?
Thanks, Peter! great to be here.
I agree — the “fourth rule” is where most of the action is with a demagogue. The fact that they threaten or break established rules of governance is what distinguishes them from other charismatic or populist leaders. They are intrinsically violent, even if they aim at positive aims (as I argue in the book, there are rare instances of “beneficial” demagogues). And their rule-breaking is enabled by — and built on the foundation of — the other rules, their emotional connection to the people and the ambition they have for this connection.
Welcome to FireDogLake! I haven’t read your book, but it sounds fascinating.
Can you describe the steps voters can take to distinguish between a populist and a demagogue? A predecessor in the office you seek, populist Henry Howell, was called a demagogue by corporate interests in Virginia, which likely prevented his ascension to the governorship when a moderate GOP, Linwood Holton, was identified to oppose the roiled-by-racism Democratic party.
How can voters tell the difference between a populist and a demagogue?
Thanks again for chatting today!
Matt — we are going to get far into the semantic/philosophical weeds here, but then that’s probably what this audience wants! :)
The question you ask — whether Richard Nixon used techniques that are “demagogic” — is a fascinating and important one, and goes to the heart of whether there is a meaningful distinction between “demagogue” as a noun and demagogue as a verb.
There is.
I would argue that a demagogue (noun) is a person who regularly demagogues and is defined by that practice. Demagogue (the verb) is the practice of engaging in discrete acts of demagoguery.
More in a sec.
As the torture memos being released demonstrate, though, Bush clearly had moments of “intense emotional reaction among the people,” especially in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. He, Rove, Cheney and others were quite good at using that to their advantage, threatening and/or breaking many laws, customs, and constitutional prohibitions as they pleased.
In short, Bush did indeed have a short career as a demagogue, though it did fade and pale.
That said, your comment up front in the book is definitely true: “we shouldn’t spend too much energy disputing whether someone ‘is’ or ‘is not’ a demagogue. . . . The category is a sliding scale” and not and either/or proposition.
Welcome, Michael and Matt. This idea that the constitutional principle is stil in place seems an optimistic view. Recent polls suggest the country is split over whether torture should be banned and whether those responsible should be held accountable. If you watch the talking head shows today, or read the op-ed columns, it’s clear a broad segment of the pundit class is trying very hard not to investigate, let alone prosecute, those responsible for torture. Do you believe we’ve made progress from, say, the post-Watergate era, or fallen back?
Impeachment was never on the table; there are no independent prosecutors, and we can’t even agree on an independent fact-finding commission. I would claim that the nation has largely abandoned the principles of accountability and rule of law for the elites that underlie the Constitutional principle.
So… if you accept that a person (or group) can engage in acts of demagoguery without being a demagogue, then you start to see how someone like Nixon — who, by his very being, approach, background, and manner, was about as far away from a typical demagogue as you could possibly be — could tap into “demagogic” techniques.
And I agree that he did, most notably by manipulating public opinion on Vietnam and saying he would end the war and then turning around and doing the opposite through unlawful conduct in Cambodia.
Remember, demagoguery always hinges on the fourth rule — bending or breaking the rules — and so cannot describe acts of propaganda or manipulation (as bad as they can be). But Nixon and his cronies certainly did bend or break rules and he did so through acts of mass emotional manipulation that could be considered demagogic.
Hi Mike, I’m from the 16th Street Forum — we met you in an enlightening meeting last month!
While we’re Nova folks, I was just at a family reunion in VaBeach yesterday. That side of the family is red–all red. Many heated conversations about “rationing healthcare, taxing the little people, taking away guns, etc.” all topics that are susceptible to an emergent demogogue. Question: where do you see the next red (and blue!) demogogues positions? What’s the best way to engage the populace in the facts. Based on what I heard yesterday, I could hardly believe that Virginia went blue! It made me think there is a boatload of work to be done.
We look forward to your success, an dour part in it.
Have we been lucky, in the sense that the nation has not had a truly gifted demagogue? The hypothesis would be there that the collapse of the financial system has revealed a breakdown of the entire regulatory structure, both governance and self-regulation. Every institution failed to do it’s job, and as a result millions lose their life savings, their homes, their health care, their retirement. Yet so far, we’ve seen a short-lived protest over AIG bonus and a ridiculous set of tea parties. This is ripe ground for a truly effective, evil demagogue, but so far, we haven’t seen one emerge. So have we been lucky?
Teddy, thanks for this question. Are you a Virginian? I actually am typing this from a coffeehouse in Fredericksburg — I’m here because I just attended the memorial service for George Rawlings, who as you probably know was a close associate of Henry Howell and one of the original Virginia Democrats who fought to “keep the big boys honest.”
I think I’ve answered this question above… populists tap into incredible passions among the masses, but they tend to play by the rules. The inherently violent tendency necessary to the demagogue was not evident in Henry Howell’s populism, as angry and passionate as he and his supporters were.
In V.O. Key’s great history of Southern politics, he actually observes that Virginia is unusual among the Southern states in never having had a prominent demagogue. As I argue in the book, other demagogues were present throughout the 20th century, whether Theodore Bilbo of Mississippi or Gene Talmadge of Georgia. They usually preyed on mass passions about race to generate violence and threats for their own political benefits — classic “destructive” demagogues in the typology of the book.
Can a demagogue rule from an undisclosed location and “seriously threaten the Constitution”?
How are the “great and observant public” to respond when the noble liars are the demagogues?
Or can demagoguery be practiced by manipulation behind of the message, reinforced through talking points and party discipline — via a Karl Rove?
I think this is actually an interesting point:
It’s astonishing how successfully the perspective of the Iraqi people has been shut out of the discussion. Our “elites” decided they knew what the Iraqis wanted, and then there was no interest in hearing what they had to say. A friend, Molly Bingham, did a documentary where she risked her life to talk to members of the resistance — she couldn’t get distribution. The national delusion depends on shutting those voices out for its perpetuation.
I think that’s going to get harder and harder to do, for a variety of reasons. But as our notion of what journalism “is” changes, the notion that a story can only be told by a “professionally trained” reporter who always happens to be a white guy working for the New York Times is coming to an end. As information flows more quickly and more freely, and nobody can afford to send that white guy from the Times overseas any more, people telling their own stories and generating primary source information is going to be something we increasingly rely upon for news.
I think (hope) that means that the flow of information will be a lot harder to manipulate by a few people for propaganda purposes.
Thanks and great to hear from you! For the rest of you, the 16th Street Forum is a group of a couple of dozen ex-Kerry volunteers in Arlington County who have been meeting for dinner every two weeks for the last four years and are passionately committed to studying the Constitution. We had a terrific meeting recently regarding my campaign for Lt. Gov. of Virginia and several members are now active volunteers on my campaign.
On your question — I am highly encouraged by the fact that, amid a time of extreme economic turmoil, ordinary folks — the masses — are putting their faith in a president who himself is a constitutional scholar, who evinces a deep faith in and commitment to the principles of iterative reason, and who is about as far from a demagogue as I can imagine.
The upsetting emotional tenor of the teabag parties I think does go to a real issue — which is how far and how angry will the conservatives who lost the election last year through a public accounting for their own failures to govern well go? I cannot say I am very worried — I think they look more like angry crackpots than a serious political movement. But I do think they could spawn a few petty demagogues, and we just need to be vigilant (on my side of the aisle, politically, and through our political system, educationally and substantively) to keep informing the American people about good policy, good options, and fight off bigotry and division and rabble-rousing.
How has America the Exemplar fared the last eight years in its battle against America the Vulgar Exceptionalist?
The exceptionalism strain, like swine flu, seems particularly resiliant, from Broderite variants to well-coiffed newsreaders to Blue Dog Democrats, Texas textbooks and much of the GOP.
Anonymous demagoguery can certainly make it easier for leaders to threaten and/or break the laws — or can push them in the direction where that is seen as the “thing to do”.
That, in the image of
GodAmerica theme (excluding Iraqis), seems essential when attempting to propagate Jeffersonian democracy at the point of foreigner’s a gun.Isn’t Harry F Byrd a Virginia demagogue?
And, yes, I used to be a Virginian but now call San Francisco home. I did not know about George Rawlings’ death. What a great liberal voice he was for fairness and tolerance when it really mattered there. I was among his and Howell’s student allies in their 1972 takeover of the Democratic party.
Jane: Thanks for this insightful comment. (And I’m looking forward to seeing you at the Netroots Debate in Blacksburg this week).
I couldn’t agree more. I interviewed a number of people at length and reviewed materials that described how poorly we attended to ordinary Iraqis in the initial years in Iraq. It really is astonishing, and one of the points of the book is to recall Americans to the core success of America’s democracy — the embedded constitutional values among ordinary Americans — to salvage a “2.0″ version of democracy promotion, post-Bush.
It’s an interesting analogy you draw to journalism today and blogs. I do agree that blogs have brought a lot of “street energy” to political journalism and to politics itself. In my campaign for Lieutenant Governor, I’m more likely to hear about the reaction of folks — whethr it’s praise or challenging questions or interesting facts — through blogs than through the conventional media.
But as the son of two professionally-trained print reporters, I also confess that I’m concerned by the de-funding and general decline of professional reporting. I think that rigorous, longitudinal investigative and political reporting added real value to our politics and to our culture. Rules like double-sourcing, editorial control, and strict on/off-record practices were very important, as were the funding of long-term investigations that blogs — because many are (bless their hearts) unpaid — simply cannot perform.
So I think I’d love to have the best of both worlds — scrappy, populist blogs, and serious, well-funded, professional political and investigative reporting.
And then of course I’d love to have my cake and eat it too. :)
The neocons were so exactly like the Best and the Brightest in their views of what could be accomplished on behalf of but entirely without the involvement of a native population. The mistakes in the genesis of the War on Iraq are very, very like what we tried to do in our War on Vietnam.
This points me toward a question/comment related to Scarecrow’s use of the word “lucky” in his comment @20.
What is it that pushes us to rein in demagogues before they totally seize control, or helps us to recover from the “almost-demagogues”? You speak of this in the book, citing de Tocqueville (for example), but could you say more here?
They need to be ever-vigilant! This is why civic education and, more broadly, a general restlessness about the strength of our constitution is the best way to be a democrat (small d) and the best way to be an American. I strongly believe we should never, ever rest in trying to improve our democracy and in bringing everyone — even the least likely to care, even the most poor and disenfranchised — into the process.
That’s why I’ve argued so strongly in my campaign against Virginia’s current practice of disenfranchising ex-offenders, a Jim Crow-era practice that bars 20% of African-American men from voting today. We stand with Kentucky as the only two states that bar you from voting for life if you’re a felon. I recently wrote about this here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..79238.html
Although I don’t think any of the Kennedy era “Best and the Brightest” had anyone comparable to Ahmad Chalabi telling them how wonderful they were and how it would all work out exactly as planned.
Mike, I really appreciated the book’s exploration of Walt Whitman and his view of American exceptionalism. I particularly liked how you distinguished this view of exceptionalism from that of the chest-beating Right — while Whitman certainly held grand notions of America’s destiny, because of his experiences during the Civil War, for Whitman “the achievement of America’s dignity would forever be linked with its cost.”
It’s a form of patriotism that strongly prizes American values, but also recognizes that we are bound up with humanity in a common struggle, and one that I see encouragingly exemplified by our current President.
Do you think the television requirement that politicians appear “cool” mitigates against the appearance of a demagogue? Seeing old filmstrips of party conventions makes me realize that the blowdried & madeup requirements would never permit some of our greatest party politicians. Can you imagine Abe Ribicoff’s scolding from the 1968 Chicago podium ever being permitted today without universal condemnation?
Jonathan Turley is about as hot as one can get on teevee nowadays without having a niche like Keith Olbermann. Excepting the FOX allstars, of course.
Peter, this is a great question. And again, you are pushing me in a pure-philosophy direction to answer your question… hopefully that’s Ok.
There is a great division in philosophy, sociology, and political science between those who say that you cannot blame crowds for their decisions — that it simply makes no sense to use terms like “blame” or “responsibility” for people who are grouped into masses, and those who do not agree with this view.
Where I’m going should be familiar to anyone who read (or knows about) the book Hitler’s Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen, where the author blamed thousands of everyday Germans for their complicity in and encouragement of genocide.
The question goes deeper to the etiology of your ethical philosophy. Does it make sense to exhort a group to moral action? Because doing so presumes intentionality from a group — and, conversely, means that a group could choose between paths.
I do believe that groups and masses of people can be blamed for their actions, and much of the book’s argument flows from this premise. Nations bear responsibility for demagogues; when freedom lives or dies in a fledgling democracy is attributable to whether the people side with constitutionalism or with power, with a demagogue.
This is why constitutionalism answers the paradox of the “cycle of regimes” — if the demagogue is, by definition, a “leader of the people,” and if the people, in giving power to a demagogue, willingly allow tyranny, then the people (the wellspring of constitutionalism) can also arrest the cycle of regimes.
The people are their own salvation.
Freedom, in other words, can save freedom.
Remember the Republican debates last year. Half or them were would-be demagogues, combining the elements up to the incitement to possible violence in the handling of “illegals,” but they came off more as clowns than serious leaders — hence, we’ve been “lucky” not to have a competent example.
Teddy, this is a really interesting question. I draw a distinction in the book between “soft” and “hard” demagoguery (the former is more about flattery, the latter more about bigotry), borrowing from James Ceaser at UVA. Your question is similar. Kathleen Hall Jamieson and others have argued that television has changed politics and politicians, requiring calmer, “cooler” behavior. Yes, I think it has changed demagoguery — but it has not eliminated it. In Venezuela, Hugo Chavez is certainly a demagogue, and he has made ample use of television. In the early years after 9/11, Osama bin Laden was definitely trying to become a demagogue, through all of his video releases aimed at riling the Muslim world into mass violent revolt against the West — and he used television for this.
So I think that, in the main, television will change and soften politics — but demagogues will always find a way.
Among the tools of freedom to halt demagoguery in the US are Congressional investigations. The plea to “let bygones be bygones” strikes me as an attempt by would-be demagogues and/or their apologists to undermine what you so delightfully summed up in your quip “Freedom can save freedom.”
Only by facing the past sins can future sins be challenged before they bear fruit.
Thanks — when I was researching and writing the book last year, and re-reading Leaves of Grass and some biographies of Whitman, I was very struck by how intimately the character of Lincoln was linked to his ideas of power, democracy, and America itself. And then that of course linked up for me with Barack Obama’s idea of America.
Whitman’s democracy depended quite profoundly on the character and the idea of Abraham Lincoln, which we could use more of today, especially given President Obama’s commitment to Lincoln. Lincoln’s political ideas and his vision of America were shaped by the Civil War and by a deeply serious sense of the costs of our greatest aspirations. This didn’t mean we shouldn’t be ambitious — he very much was — but it meant that we always needed to keep in mind the promise and peril of the human condition. The fact that Whitman was a nurse to the Civil War’s wounded perfectly meshed with his hero Lincoln’s graven sense of America’s responsibility and the cost of freedom and unity.
This is so radically different from the castle-in-the-sky reasoning of the neocons in the Bush administration it takes your breath away. As I argue in the book, at least the neoconservatives were responding to real events — a Trotskyite anger at the collapse of Soviet communism, for instance. The neocons, on the other hand, were freed from any such grounding in the real world and went about pursuing what was basically a metaphysical philosophy — that democracy would grow in Iraq like Jack’s Beanstalk rather than needing to be carefully cultivated day by day.
I strongly recommend the book, about which I wrote here at Daily Kos back in March. Two snippets from what I wrote then. The first, that I
The second, my concluding words:
Having had the opportunity to spend some time with Mike, whom I am now supporting for LG, I fully expect the kind of thoughfulness he brought to this book, and that he showed in this live blog at Blue Commonwealth on the 20th of this month, will be not only what he brings to the remainder of this primary campaign, but hopefully also to the office of Lt. Gov. of Virginia.
Thanks, Ken.
I have to say that I’ve gotten some push-back on the central argument of my campaign, which is that I believe the office of Lieutenant Governor can be more than just a place-holder or a stepping-stone, but that it can be a public advocate, someone taking on the systems in Virginia failing working Virginians and their families and shining a spotlight on problems we’ve ignored for too long (like the disenfranchisement of ex-offenders I wrote about above).
I just don’t agree. I think the office can do much more, and pursuant to Ken’s post (and this no doubt can be blamed in part on my experience as an adjunct professor at Virginia Tech) I strongly believe one way in which the LG can be tremendously useful is by serving essentially as an educator — helping to inform and push along public debate on issues, in part by treating citizens like grown-ups and trusting them with more information and in part by challenging established ways of thinking, “framing,” and policy-making.
This would apply to job creation equally as to environmental issues, the sacred contract we have with veterans and military families, and strengthening our democracy.
I think about political process in all of these examples. In 1860, our nation was still very young and unformed. Suddenly it was rent, and the risk that Lincoln took in the Civil War with the enormous numbers of dead young soldiers, the terrible battles–all were overwhelming. That he succeeded in keeping the nation together, in fact re-uniting it is beyond impressive. Of course, we did not have the speed of communication then as now and had a whole other level of education, I would say.
In 1258, the Mongols attacked/sacked Baghdad and killed 800,000 people. More or less. It was not until Saddam came to power in 1958 or so, that Baghdad, (the jewel of Mesopotamia in 1258) came back in any way, as a city.
The USSR broke apart after 1989, and still, the history of keeping it together exceeds the promise of the democracy that ever briefly seemed that it might have any chance, again, well notsomuch.
All different elements of rebirth, different times and places. It is a wonder that our leaders have such little education.
I want to reply but am not sure how… is the point of your very thoughtful post a pensive consideration of the facts and history that underlie any attempts at democracy? Or are you making a point about freedom itself?
I think it is really that we need to have some kind of underpinnings TO democracy, that it does not “flower” without some kind of historical experience and a culture that might favor it to emerge, or survive. In the SU or Iraq, for example, there were hundreds of years that oppositions were held together by force, I think. There is not the culture or historical example that can provide any means for a people to get to a new place, like freedom. It really requires other elements, none which seem present in the reality.
Well… that, or an overwhelming commitment by an outside force, or by the people themselves, or by an especially gifted leader, to pursuing democracy. I am not a very big fan of deterministic accounts of a particular country and democracy — i.e. I don’t think certain countries are doomed not to be democracies. But their histories and cultures certainly must become part of whatever form of freedom they adopt. Look at Liberia today, which had so much violence for so long and is doing relatively well under Ellen Sirleaf-Johnson (and after a ton of resources and international democracy promotion work). Or Turkey, where Ataturk’s example was so profound in developing a secular democracy. Or India, which is succeeding against all odds in constantly improving its democracy (with obvious fits and starts). These countries’ histories were not necessarily more felicitous for democracy than Russia’s or Iraq’s.
You do see in some countries how much a deep, long, and powerful commitment to democracy through power can be. I write in the book about Germany and Japan. For the U.S. to build democracies in these countries required, respectively, the Marshall Plan and comprehensive “de-Nazification” of the German population, and General MacArthur’s military rule of Japan and the construction of a constitution with buy-in form the Japanese public.
Both cases are a far cry from Iraq or from Afghanistan today, where the Obama administration — playing from a very limited deck, with the depleted force structure inherited from the Bush administration and the economic crisis — is poised to pull up stakes from democracy promotion, anti-corruption, and governance programs and basically just focus on counterterrorism and security. As I argued in The New Republic recently, I think democracy promotion could be reconsidered there and elsewhere, readjusted to focus more on constitutionalism:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/st…..126f14dc60
And then there’s all the countries in Central and South America who have had their democracies undercut by the US for whatever reason, yet have somehow managed to develop democratic principles in spite of the US.
Agree. I spent a month in Costa Rica after college studying Spanish and was pretty impressed by that country’s commitment to spreading democratic principles (and the fact that they don’t even have a military has afforded them a lot more flexibility). But then Costa Rica also has a far less divided population, ethnically, which has meant that they’ve avoided a lot of the internal conflicts of other Latin American countries…. and a marginally more stable economy. All probbaly relevant in helping the President Oscar Arias Sanchez promote peace throughout Latin America.
Mike, the Ataturk example has always interested me. He’s actually a good example of someone who took the people out of the process, setting up a secular democracy and tasked the military with preserving it, and used undemocratic means to suppress the expression of certain ideas. No wonder the neocons love him so much…
As we come the end of this Book Salon,
Michael, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us
discussing your new book and politics.
Matt, Thank you for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Michael’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
My pleasure, thanks everyone.
And thanks Mike!
Matt: Ooofff… you are leading us into difficult waters here, namely whether for a constitutional democracy to be successful, the initial foundation-laying must be purely constitutional as well. As you note, Ataturk hardly was. The example of Germany also counters that idea — after WWII, the U.S. totally dominated the country, which launched two world wars — even today, our thousands of troops there arguably help inhibit even the remote chance that neo-Nazis could start to gather political power ever again. Democracy in Germany never could have taken root without a substantial element of force and acculturation at the beginning.
So your apt questioning about the Ataturk example goes to a deeper and perhaps troubling issue — democracy is a beast obviously worth mastering — but often not without cost. It is almost always very difficult to do at the outset — and, in maintaining and growing democracy, there will be fights, expense, and peril. We see this in domestic issues (e.g. the issue of disenfranchisement in Virginia, which usually can be ventured only with serious political attack from hostile conservative forces) and in foreign policy (e.g. the debate right now over whether to continue democratizing Afghanistan or focus only on security).
So the uncomfortable fact that democracy in Turkey or Germany began with an outright mix of coercion, political power, and freedom goes to the deeper truth that raw democracy requires diligence and passion to build and maintain and moderate into constitutional democracy.
Thank you everyone! Terrific discussion. Please email me offline at mike@michaelsigner.com with any thought or questions.
Thanks again to Matt, Bev, and the Lake community for this forum.
And I should say please follow my campaign as well — http://www.mikesigner.com.
Thanks!
Given Virginia’s non-succession rule for Governors, an active and engaged Lt Governor who is doing more than running for Governor would be a distinct advantage and a benefit to the Commonwealth.
Sorry I missed this discussion today. Alice Miller writes awesoem psychological analyses. She wrote
about the history of German’s pre-Hitler patriarchal society and religiosity. How the authoritarian parenting and strict paternal religiosity ripened the society to passively accept Hitler’s power and control.
The authoritarian personality bonds with the authoritarian followers, like the Stockholm Syndrome in a way, victims who identify with their aggressors, or as Eric Berne once described the “ego state” of demagogues, it is the “pig parent” … really of the three ego states, parent, adult and child, it is the child ego state imititating the critical side of the parent ego state which he calls the PIG PARENT! Cheney, McCain, Bush, even Simon Cowell, Judge Judy, etc. all slip into the “pig parent.” And it seems to hypnotize all the sheeple who had “pig parent-slipping-into” parents. They are offered an underserved trust by those in denial who want to believe the “for your own good stuff” was warranted and not sadistic. They fall in love with such righteous authoritativeness and unbridled bravado.
FWIW… Alice Miller also contended that if Hitler had had a child, he could have abused his child, the same way Hitler’s father had abused Hitler, and maybe the child-less Hitler would not have vented his madness on millions, the child would have been the main shock absorber and scapegoate of Hitler’s obsessions and insanity and malice.