I not only do not have a problem with exposing the complicity of Democrats, I think it is a positive good. First, it destroys the problem of people calling it a partisan witch-hunt. Second, it should result in shaking out all the old guard that got this issue wrong, and are busy getting all kinds of current issues wrong, because they are in the pocket of the rich.

Thanks, Jane.

I WANT democrats investigated, too. It would actually help the whole process.

This is such a racket. They call every dissenter crazy and unpatriotic and destroy their credibility, shut everyone down, and now they claim there’s some kind of statute of limitations on speaking up. Because that’s what they are doing to Harmon: providing grounds to call her unpatriotic, then AND now.

I guess we’re supposed to understand that it’s unpatriotic to speak up then and unpatriotic to speak up now, huh.

I completely agree, FWIW. If a true and full housecleaning is what’s needed…so be it. Maybe another Watergate lesson can be learned. Beyond the real torture tragedy, I am also quite sick and tired of seeing our language being tortured. Even the Boy King W was heard to say that “words matter.” Of course he’s right even though he did not know how to use them or how to tell the truth.

Go Jane!
And what Masaccio said, and what Glennzilla has been saying all along: party affiliation has NOTHING to do with it! Torture is WRONG.

FunnyDiva

PS, pet peeve #3,749: When did memorandums become the plural of memorandum?!

But the best way to put an end to this partisan bickering is to have an investigation. If Democrats are exposed for having been complicit, so be it, I’ve got no problem with that.

I couldn’t agree more Jane, if Anyone is complicit in Torture they must be brought to Justice! It doesn’t matter whether there is a D,R or an I behind their name. If they knew and said nothing they are complicit!
Thanks for the great post Jane and I have hung up my DIGG shovel until they see the light of the correct way to do things! It is a shame as I felt it was a great way to promote the Lake!

Whenever you post anything that Porter Goss has to say or write, it should be prefaced with his advice to college students:

Admit nothing, deny everything and always make counter accusations.

-G

I say in totality all this is treason by a large number but not entirely all government officials both R & D s.
I don’t want any official from bush to the guy that mopped up the blood off the floor, NO exceptions, to receive my tax money in any form next week,no paycheck or pension payments.
Where are these traitors who did this because right now they’re hiding.
And I never want my daughter to EVER unknowingly go out with one of these Jeckle hyde types that do this shit.

But the best way to put an end to this partisan bickering is to have an investigation. If Democrats are exposed for having been complicit, so be it, I’ve got no problem with that.

I’d like an independent investigation, please.

I think I can safely say that some of those who were on the oversight committees during the last 8 years are still on those committees, some in the majority. I’m not comfortable with the silent partners doing the questioning in a matter of this magnitude.

I not only do not have a problem with exposing the complicity of Democrats, I think it is a positive good. First, it destroys the problem of people calling it a partisan witch-hunt.

Critics (mostly Republican) will call any investigation partisan regardless of the methodology or outcome. Their talking points are not constrained by reality.

“I do not recall a single objection from my colleagues. They did not vote to stop authorizing CIA funding.”

Those that did would never have been accused of being anti-American and supporting the terrorists. No, no, no, of course not.

If Democrats are exposed for having been complicit, so be it, I’ve got no problem with that.

Amen to that. Let the chips fall where they may.

Amen, Jane
let’s round up all the perps.

Democrats were complicit. There is no secret there. There is no secret that torture works exactly as the armed services warned. Torture works to get false information to use to get the opposition to go along with invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. What was that thing, uh, the Downing Street Memo that was brushed aside? The “facts” were being fixed around the intelligence? Hmmmmm…. Yep, torture works!

You could pretty easily fit the members of Congress who made a serious effort to rein in abuses by the Bush junta in a Volkswagon beetle.

But the best way to put an end to this partisan bickering is to have an investigation. If Democrats are exposed for having been complicit, so be it, I’ve got no problem with that.

not only no problem with it, I demand it

Great post Jane! We have got to keep hammering at this every time this “partisan witch hunt” gets bandied about. Everyone complicit in creating and implementing the torture regime needs to be investigated and prosecuted accordingly. This has nothing to do with party affiliation.

I would also recommend that we remind wingnuts everywhere what courts are for. They are to give defendants a chance to present their defense for their actions before a jury. The whole point of a jury of your peers is to have a group of people who will weigh mitigating details.

Lets say for the sake of argument that Cheney is right, that torturing people is enormously successful at preventing attacks. Well, then let him prove it in court.

Unlike the wingnuts I don’t believe in locking up people forever without giving them their day in court. Perhaps that explains their confused dual contention that a) they did nothing wrong and b) no one should be prosecuted. They don’t believe they can make a good enough case with respect to the former to prevent incarceration after the latter.

If a special prosecutor is appointed, will that just bury everything like what happened in the CIA outing case? Because in that case, between the appointment and the trial of Libby, we heard nothing and to this day we know nothing. I say that a senate select committee just like the Watergate one. Hold public televised hearings every day. Of course, that assumes that 1-reid would stop his blocking actions 2- that both the dems and the repigs could set aside their hyper partisanship(HA) and actually place their country ahead of themselves and their parties(again,HA). Actually, I can not think of more than 3 or 4 senators who could actually measure up. Unfortunately their are no more “Im just an ol country lawyer” and “What did the president know and when did he know it” giants left. Midgets mostly

It is calculated that the administration wishes to protect criminals and cover up criminal activity because of some use to the party of the perps in the Major Issues facing the nation. This strategy worked so well in the nazi Ratline by which egregious monsters were ferried incognito to Argentina postwar in order that they provide assistance to the allies in combatting their real enemy in Moscow, and also just look how well Reaching Across the Aisle ™ prospered in the stimulus packaging. It’s always a good idea to shirk off your friends in favor of your enemies.

Oh, and since there were those scandals at Abu Ghraib and other military-run prisons…then they should have voted to cut all funding off from the DoD, too. Right Porter? In fact, since the WH and Justice Department were behind approving these techniques those opposed to these tactics should have voted cutting of funding to those entities as well.

And when they were attacked by the likes of you for not defending their actions…for being “anti-military”, “hating the troops” and “putting us in danger from terrorists”…they could not defend themselves. The documents were all classified. The criminal acts you approved, and continued as CIA Director, were not available for public viewing.

Porter Goss, you decry a partisan attack…could it be you are using that to defend your own culpability?

Investigate..but if opposition was stymied under threat of criminal charges for violations of secrecy, then that also needs to come out. People should not have to be under threat of life imprisonment, or losing their position in government, for revealing criminal acts.

It’s worth noting that if Democratic Politicians go down, so will a bunch of Republicans.

A committee of study is a black hole. Just look at what we learned about the CIA tapes disappearance. Also the 9/11 investication was what you might expect from a bipartisan (hermaphrodite) hack; a delicate tiptoeing attempt not to offend.

Remember also there are problems with a Congressional investigation. These clowns are only interested in their careers so they will freely grant immunity to land the stars for their teevee extravaganzas. A couple of creeps named Ollie and Deaver beat their raps because Repugnant judges found their prosecutions “tainted” by immune testimony. I say, hold the hearings, offer no immunity to chief creeps, indict the losers, move the agenda, amen.

just want to add my voice to the chorus: thanks jane.

we need an independent investigation run by a prosecutor.

another reason, as though there aren’t already enough reasons, is something i haven’t seen mentioned yet. so long as people who were involved in torture remain in government they are prime targets for corruption and manipulation by those who have access to the evidence. we’ve got to out everyone – D and R – as a prerequisite for a functional gov going forward.

LOL – would that be the little yellow car that stops in the middle ring and 30 clowns get out? Ok, maybe not 30, but still – clowns…

“We support the administration, and its policies, in our work as agency employees,” he said. “We do not identify with, support or champion opposition to the administration or its policies.” Porter Goss memo to CIA

Make sure you email and/or comment to every media outlet to beat down this “partisan” meme the Republicans are shopping.
Was just over Broder’s latest whine on WaPo and the comments are brutal. Keep it up!

If Congress got this it would not mirror Watergate, for the simple reason that many of those involved ARE at least possibly complicit in being told about, if not approving, the procedures involved. That was not true in Watergate. But even then there was a lot of manipulation of the Watergate hearings by those Republicans who were intent on defending Nixon’s activities. If one looks back at the history one can see that in many ways they were largely successful. But several revelations (Butterfield revealing the taping; Dean’s testimony; the discovery of the slush funds) took it out of their hands. In fact, many of the revelations that drove the revelation of the Watergate scandal was FROM the MSM. Don’t expect that today. They are too lazy and too entrenched in protecting the GOP and even the established Democratic Leadership (although they will attack the latter in order to manipulate them to support the goals of GE, Clear Channel, etc.).

It’s like these documents being released…theres’ a momentum here that even the Conservative and Corporate-controlled media can’t slow. Ironically it’s because of their natural competition for the “blockbuster” and scoop. If they try and suppress something a rival will grab it and run with it. That’s why there was the effort to monopolize and centralize the news gathering aspects of the media, and to marginalize and impugn smaller, more independent groups (”bloggers”). More conglomeration…more control for political purposes, easier ability to “spin” or “twist” bad news or minimize it.

Yup I agree this should be a non-partisan issue ,whoever made these decisions should be held accountable,regardless of party affiliation.
Torture is wrong no matter which side of the aisle you’re on

Blue America upstairs with guest Darcy Burner discussing her new position.

I am sure there are many folks here who are familiar with this accounting process more clearly than I do. When I was on administrative staff at a Big 6 CPA firm, I recall reviewing a few accounting reports where our firm cited any previous CPA firms misdeeds. These citations were always reported to SEC and state enforcement entities. Subsequently, that firm would be investigated, possibly charged, and CPA,s would be suspended from practicing.

This is how I see the torture memo situation. The Obama administration has a duty to inform, investigate, and prosecute a prior administration’s illegal actions. It is not partisan in any way and as the example above shows, it is quite an ordinary and necessary role of auditors in American business matters.

It is because the auditors will report findings of prior accounting misdeeds that accountants are deterred from committing them. As I see it, Obama’s position is perilously close to obstructing the normal legal process of administrative succession.

I say we SHOULD make torture a partisan issue

I do NOT have to sell out my moral principles to wage this argument

the opposition doesn’t have that option

slavery was once a partisan issue

I didn’t have to sell out my moral values on that topic either

we’re on the right side of this issue

if there are depraved assholes in this country who want to make a partisan issue out of this, LET THEM

LET THEM DEFEND MORAL DEPRAVITY

THEIR LOSS OF MORAL COMPASS WILL DRIVE THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

I don’t want to make this a political issue

but I ain’t supporting EVIL, so let the repuglitards kill themselves in this moral hell hole

In a “witch hunt” there are “witches”…people who are WRONGFULLY blamed for the crop failures, bad weather, epidemics, or a rash of childrens deaths or disappearances.

Just how does an investigation in which tangible evidence is FULLY examined, discussed in the antiseptic light of day, with Memoranda and emails showing the ACTUAL relationships, acts, and decision-making at all compare to a Witch Hunt?

What they WANT and are actually doing is a witch hunt. They are using claims, based on no evidence at all, to make accusations as to what happened or was said in closed committee hearings. If Goss claims that these Democrats were involved…declassify the discussions. Show the public what was said. Who was there. Open it ALL up! In context.

Only then can people who are innocent and opposed the actions defend themselves.

And, BTW, Mr. Goss should realize that he’s not saying that people are actually innocent of the charges of approving torture (i.e. innocent people who are accused of witchcraft) . Rather he is saying “We are all GUILTY”.
I was almost about to say Goss was implying “We are all guilty of being Witches”…but Witches are really incapable of doing the things they were accused of during the inquistion. Torture had to be used to extract “confessions” from those witches. Sort of like Abu Zubaydah saying “Bin Laden has built a nuclear bomb”.

But in the case of those who approved torture? No witches…real people ordered, performed and approved this being done. No witches at all!

Agreed. Many of us in the progressive internet community begged, pleaded and threatened lawmakers over the torture policies and the illegal wiretapping and we were dismissed as dirty fucking hippies. Now it comes out that at least one key congresscritter was wiretapped, (legally apparently), and now is crying “foul” at the top of her lungs. Best to appoint a non partisan special prosecutor and let him or her follow the facts wherever they go. And when they lead to Pelosi, Reyes, Hoyer, Harman, Reid aned others at least tacitly agreeing to this, (read “rolling over again”), then so be it. Best to remove them from congress before we can move forward.

Jane,
If I may a point or two. It’s not water boarding like surfboarding it’s water torture.
Two things I find that aren’t spoken is there are reported 108 people who died by somehow not having the right answer during torture.
So Bybee ,a sitting Federal Judge ,is an accessory to murder. Nice.
Up to 80% of the Gitmo Guys were innocent ,at the wrong place and time. So we made a mistake.

Do the republicans torture boosters argue to provide mental health resources and reparations to those who are 100% innocent and were water tortured?

Jane you brain,
And just one more thought this weekend.
I read the torture methods were adjusted as needed.
Interesting.
This Mc Connell pilot, the IT karl side kick could have set up a secure link from gitmo to W.H. No?
So now we know Rummy, Condi and dick approved special treatment for some and were making adjustments.
How fast? Real time with the tortured tortured at the pleasure of the leaders ,via live stream back and forth,for not being deferential enough?
This would be different than the roman coliseum how?

For me, this has always been a no-brainer. I don’t think I’ve ever thought “if there are Democrats involved, we should get them, too.”

It’s always simply been “let’s find out who was responsible for the torture, and prosecute.”

Republicans seem to think that it’s some kind of “gotcha” when they ‘inform’ us that Democrats may have been involved. Yeah, and your point is…?

And just one more little thought . Where any of the torture tapes actually SNUFF films?

“Did not vote to stop CIA funding”

That would have done a lot of good. “Why did you vote against the omnibus bill funding the CIA Jane?

“Because”

I’ve taken to responding to mainstream articles pointing out “Liberals” hot to prosecute torture :

“I am a PROUD disabled cold war vet and I did NOT SIGN UP to defend a Constitution that allows War Crimes to go unpunished and unobjected to. I am NOT a ‘Liberal!’”

They use it as a slur, see? It’s a codeword for “baby killers who hold vigils for serial killers on death row.”

“It’s not rebels that make trouble, but trouble that makes rebels.” – Ruth Messinger

“The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” -Flannery O’Connor

Would any cuts in funding have been directed at the interrogations or GTMO? Not likely. They’d have let building maintenance suffer before cutting that.

No, it appears Goss is just making noises.

The obvious thing is Bushies were running the Executive branch, so the number of Dems exposed would necessarily be very small. If there’s any political hit on this it’s small for Dems.

But, by far the more important thing is the Rule of Law and how we maintain (even the appearance of) having the moral high-ground. It’s hard to claim Exceptionality when you behave like everybody else.

Anyhow, I think it will be good for Repubs to distance themselves from the Bushies. They might not *get* that, but in time they might.

This issue reminds me of a slogan Brad Friedman used/uses at his blog (BradBlog.com) when he talks about election integrity: “It’s not about Left and Right. It’s about Right and Wrong.”