[Welcome author, historian, Rick Perlstein, and host, Eric Rauchway, Professor, University California, Davis - bevw]
Greetings, FDL book salon members, and welcome to Rick Perlstein’s Nixonland. It’s a bleak place, an America broken into pieces, cracked apart by disagreement over war and the method of prosecuting war; over race and racism; over whether you can dissent from official opinion and still count truly as an American citizen. It’s not at all like the country we live in, thank goodness. Rick’s written a powerful narrative here about how those cracks appeared in the American landscape, and about who started and widened them, and to what purpose. It’s a great read, rich in vivid, often chilling illustrations of the era.
Metaphors aside, in the late 1960s, something did break apart in the American political landscape. That something was the New Deal coalition: an agglomeration of voters who’d assembled to support Franklin Roosevelt and who stuck with the Democratic Party — with some notable exceptions — until sometime around 1964. The New Deal coalition included, broadly speaking, working-class white Americans, especially those in unions; black Americans; a substantial portion of the farm vote; immigrant and ethnic Americans, particularly Jews; Catholics; and southern whites. And you can throw in a few thousand university-educated middle-class liberals if you like.
Just looking at that list, you might well wonder what could possibly hold that coalition together. Because really, blacks and southern whites? Farmers and union labor? Getting those groups together took first of all a Great Depression, which persuaded them they shouldn’t be backing the Republican talk of endless prosperity for all (but later for some than for others) and second of all the political deftness of Franklin Roosevelt and other Democrats who managed to do some small (though real) things for African Americans without alienating southern whites.
That latter trick was the tougher one. Every time the Democratic Party took a few halting steps in the direction of racial or ethnic minorities, the white South defected from the Democratic national electorate. It happened in 1928, when the Democrats ran Al Smith, a Catholic; it happened in 1948, when Harry Truman supported civil rights, however tepidly; it happened in 1960, when the Democrats ran John Kennedy, a Catholic who supported civil rights, however tepidly. And it happened in 1964, when the Democrats ran with Lyndon Johnson at the head of the ticket as the party of civil rights.
Race split apart this coalition. But it wasn’t the only thing. Remember I mentioned the necessity of persuading Americans to stop buying the idea of endless prosperity for all (but later for some than for others)? As the Depression receded in memory, Americans had less and less reason to remember the insupportability of that view. Particularly, as white southerners grew richer — ironically, in large measure because of New Deal programs to modernize the South — they began to wonder whether they needed the Democratic Party quite so much anymore. As they had more money, they chafed at the idea the federal government might take it away — especially if the federal government took it away to give to black people.
The Johnson administration did a fair bit to weaken the New Deal coalition as well, sapping faith in liberalism with the crusade to modernize and democratize Vietnam and exhibiting an inability to push beyond voting rights in reckoning with racial inequality in America.
Further, George Wallace running as a frankly racist candidate for President, unelectable but damaging to the Democratic party, helped peel white working-class voters away from the New Deal coalition.
So by 1968 a variety of historical figures had helped set the stage for someone to deliver a crushing blow to the old Roosevelt bloc. That someone turned out to be Richard Nixon, who didn’t create Nixonland, though he came to rule it.
Nixon and his allies brought all kinds of wedges to split the electorate. Race, used deftly, was only one of the obvious ones. There was worry about hippies, drugs, and rock and roll. There was anger at the liberal elites who’d led us into a mismanaged war. There were anxieties galore to exploit, and Nixon’s men set out to exploit them quite deliberately, crafting a strategy of “positive polarization” or, as Pat Buchanan put it with famous arithmetic imprecision, “cut the Democratic Party and country in half; my view is that we would have far the larger half.”
One of Nixon’s characteristic ways of splitting the electorate, and one that fit perfectly with his personality, was the division into the unworthy privileged and the hardworking majority or, as Perlstein dubs them in Nixonian code, the suave Franklins and the rough-hewn Orthogonians. It’s an excellent way of creating a story that resonates deeply with Americans — we don’t like elites of any kind, don’t truck with ‘em, never have — and creates ressentiment.
Which is a key point in Perlstein’s book: every American politician has to put together a majority coalition, and often they do it by demonizing a group that can’t or won’t be in it. But there’s a case to be made that there’s a peculiar toxicity and dishonesty in encouraging ressentiment of blacks and liberals as if they were an economic elite responsible for the suffering of the white working class.
More, even if we view Nixon’s positive polarization as merely another chapter in a book that includes Roosevelt inveighing against “economic royalists,” we face the question of what Nixon did with the power he’d gained. Not much of note, it seems, on the domestic front; on the foreign side one could argue that he did eventually end the Vietnam War (though rather later than he should and after further escalation) and seek détente.
Most notably of course, Nixon used his power to cling to power, much too tightly for his own good, which led to his downfall after his landslide reelection in 1972.
Indeed, Perlstein brackets the book between two ill-starred land-slide winners: Johnson in 1964 and Nixon in 1972. What did it say about Nixonland that its two great rulers undid themselves so speedily? Was the fragmented country fundamentally ungovernable, or just ungovernable given the world situation at the time? Do we yet live in Nixonland, or have we at last moved on to another country? I look forward to Rick taking us through these and other exciting issues.



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Rick, Welcome to the Lake.
Eric, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Thanks, Eric. And thanks to Jane and FDL for their longtime support.
Hi, all, and welcome.
Hey Rick, I have a question to start. So, the paperback of Nixonland is just out now — and everyone who can buy it, of course should — but the hardback came out a while back, and you’ve had plenty of time to think, “well, if I’d thought of that, I would have done it differently.” Is there anything in that category — things you would do differently were you writing the book today?
You know, it’s been very satisfying how few times I’ve thought that–usually just little details in things I’ve read since that I wish I could have added to the book. But sometimes I think it would have been interesting to just tell the story in the book without creating a prologue that spells out a very specific “argument.” One of the great things about the reaction to my first book–Before the Storm, also out in paperback–was that people interpreted it in so many different ways. I liked that open-endedness.
It’s a terrific narrative as it is — you do a lot with purely narrative devices, I think — I was especially taken with the way you used narrative tension to draw readers into suspecting an election would turn out one way, only to show that it turned out another.
That was kind of vague, but I don’t want to spoil the book for readers. Can you spoil history?
Hi, Rick–What a fantastic book. Thanks for stopping by to discuss it.
In November, I recall someone saying that with the election of Barack Obama, we had finally migrated out of Nixonland–a direct reference to your book. It seemed overly optimistic to me, but you’re the expert–what do you think?
(And, thanks to Eric for hosting!)
Makes for a good joke on the radio. The host says, “to be absolutely honest, I haven’t finished the book,” and I say, “well, I hate to spoil it for you, but Nixon wins.”
But there also is a surprise part to the ending–Nixon wins the biggest landslide in history, but he’s still miserable. No amount of power could make him fully happy. He had a hole in his soul.
Welcome to FDL this afternoon Rick.
I have not read Nixonland but having lived it at the time, I think I remember some of the feelings when Nixon won.
Unfortunately.
Andrew Sullivan more or less made that argument in the fall:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200712/obama
And I very much demurred at the time:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02827.html
Since then, I feel vindicated. No Republican votes for the stimulus. More Republican votes for the budget. Millions of Americans who still cannot even accept the notion of a Democratic president as legitimate.
Welcome Rich and Eric to FDL – great to see you both here!
Nixonland is a treasure – and amazing storytelling which is what I so appreciate about Rick’s work – the sharing of the stories that shape us.
Thanks for being here, Eric and Rick.
Can you talk a little bit about what was going on around the time that the Powell memo was written, and what particular inadequacies in the GOP infrastructure at the time were they addressing?
I’m always fascinated at the GOP’s ability to see existing architecture and connect it to form something more powerful.
Welcome back to FDL, Rick. I’m finally reading Nixonland, but I’m only through the 1966 election. So things could still turn out differently for President Humphrey!
The Orthogonians interest me the most, since there were so many Franklins in Nixon’s political life: Kennedy, Rockefeller, Lodge. But Nixon’s presidential electoral victories were over fellow Orthogonians: Humphrey, Wallace, and McGovern. Was it his success in triangulating against Franklins that enabled him not to face them in 1968 and 1972, or do you think he regretted not having the chance to actually vanquish a Franklin, especially after the close loss to JFK?
I lived through this era; my political sensibilities were formed during it, so your book is fascinating to me. My grandmother was an acquaintance of Helen Gahagan, so I grew up learning to hate Nixon; but my high school pot dealer was the daughter of Attorney General Kleindeinst. So I have mixed feelings about the man and his team.
What’s your next step, Rick? Will you undertake a re-examination of the conservative movement’s great 1980 victory and their current saint, Ronnie?
This is something I want to pick up on — Nixon is so powerful a character, Shakespearean in scope — how much of your story do you think is driven by Nixon’s personality, and how much by events that would have happened anyway?
I’ll be dealing more with the Powell Memo–a 1971 document in which future Supreme Court justice Lewis Powell argued that business had to politically organize against the left–in my next book, on the years from 1973-80. I never found much evidence that it was influential at the time it was written. But I think it definitely struck a never later on.
Hi, Rick. After this week and all the new torture revelations, I figured it’d be nice to talk about lying, power-abusing officials who weren’t just in office.
There’s that old conservative shell game of exploiting social resentments to further economic exploitation. Nixon was a master of it. So was Reagan. We saw some of that dynamic again with the “tea parties” and the notion that the New Deal was a failure and Reaganomics were a success.
I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on any of the major events of the past month in relation to your book, since All Roads Lead to Nixondland. Thanks!
welcome mr perlstein and thank you to mr rauchway for hosting today’s salon.
i’m among those who are reading but have not finished this book. my question has to do with how much cooperation you did you get when doing the research. who surprised you with a willingness to speak to you – and who refused.
if you were to write a book about the current banana republican party, would you see parallels with the current gop and their methodology in the 60’s?
Short answer: YES!!! It will be published by Twelve Books, and the contract is going to be drawn up now, and the tentative title is “The Invisible Bridge: 1970s America and the Rise of Ronald Reagan.” There will be a lot more sex, a lot more religion, a lot more economics–and an argument about how America chose to retreat into fantasy rather than reckon with the traumas of the 1970s. Very much in the spirit of the line at Obama’s inaugural when he said it was “time to put aside childish things”–which is what America did NOT do in the 1980s, with consequences we’re very much suffering right now.
Eric, I like to think of the book as a prism which, if you look at it from one direction, throws off a story about Nixon, and if you look at it from another, throws off a story about the 1960s. To riff another metaphor: these are two sides of the same coin.
Not to give away the ending, Suzanne, but McGovern wins…
Psych!
Actually, to answer your question, if you look at my blogging for Campaign for America’s Future, which I did from spring of 2007 through February of 2009 (ourfuture.org/thebigcon) I made arguments all the time sketching out the parallels. Basically, they fall into two categories: (1) the GOP as a Nixonian party of law-breaking and rule-breaking, in its fundamental conception and practices; and (2) the GOP who relies on the resetnments dating from the cultural divisions of the 1960s (which Nixon intentionally exascerbated) to attempt to stay in power.
I’m very glad to hear that, especially about the sex, because when straight men say that “nothing happened in the seventies” they automatically discount the women’s movement and the pre-AIDS gay movement.
I mean “struck a note later on.”
Word up, Teddy. Basically what I’ve spend the last month of my life doing is reading books and documents about how the fundamental sexual mores of American society changed in the 1970s. What was called then “gay liberation” was the least of it. For instance, the idea that woman should have orgasms during sex–it revolutionalized the power structures of intimacy. It was a very powerful thing, and an explicit part of the feminist agenda.
Some book recommendations:
Beth Bailey, SEX IN THE HEARTLAND
Thomas Maier, MASTERS OF SEX
Do you think it’s quite as easy to draw parallels between the Democrats of the Nixon era and the Democrats of the Bush era?
Do you marvel at the resilience of Pat Buchanan and his perverse relationship with MSNBC?
I think one of the untold stories of our era is how effectively Democrats have matured as a party, and liberals as an ideology, since the 1960s. 1960s radicals come in for a lot of abuse in my book for their frequent childishness (though of course they also deserve a lot of moral credit); Democrats get abuse for an almost willful denial of the backlash going on underneath their noses. I’m always making the argument to conservatives that they’re fighting in their minds a party that no longer exists. Which is great for us politically, actually, because they’re fighting the last war, and we’ve moved on to responsiveness to what the country actually cares about.
Hey Rick, thanks for being here. Caught your recent interview with Rachel Maddow. Well done.
sweet – twas the first time i was old enough to vote (and iirc, the first presidential election after the voting age was lowered to 18 from 21). i’m glad i voted for president mcgovern. (laughing)
I am sorry I have not read the book. I certainly lived through alot of the narrative. Would you say something about the Nixon daughters? Tricia has always very removed, I think. But I have always been curious about how they survived the tragedy and publicity.
Democrats are the party of Acid, Amensty, and Abortion /Republican mantra since 1970
Teddy, perhaps you’ve seen this?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22…..7#25349667
A lot of it is what Digby says: the opinion elite of this country comprises a “village,” and the main qualification for admission is how nice you are to the other people in the village. Buchanan also exploits a special weakness of this elite: their anxiety that they’re out of touch with the “heartland.” People like Buchanan have skillfully exploited that neurosis to convince the rest of the villagers that hard-right conservatives have some mythic connection to that heartland. When he says something wingnutty, villagers don’t think: “that’s crazy.” They think: “gee, maybe I should think that, too, to be ‘in touch’ with the ‘real’ America.”
Horseshit, of course.
The changing of the voting age is one of the many stories in the book. People thought if 18-year-olds weren’t given the vote they’d keep on burning down college buildings!
Good times…
That’s an interesting idea — the possibility that the big story of “our era” — which begins when, 1989? — will be seen by historians in future years as one best told through the protagonist of the Democratic party as it, in your word, matures. What does that process of maturation look like? Who are, if you like, the parents who oversee that coming of age?
When people ask me what there is to admire about Nixon, one of the things I always mention is that he really did seem to be a decent father in many ways. Both of his daughters still speak highly of him.
Of course, Tricia is sort of an anti-anti-Nixon bitter-ender, and Julie’s a lot more open minded about criticisms of his legacy. Maybe that’s because he did something very cruel to Julie: had her go around the country making speeches about his innocence in Watergate, when he of course actually was guilty guilty guilty.
Haven’t worked out the argument. It’s a very complicated story. Any ideas?
FWIW, a lot of folks are unaware that Georgia and Kentucky had each allowed 18 year old vote since the fifties (Georgia being the first) with no major disasters.
In fact, I legally voted the first time in a primary at 17 since I was going to be 18 by the general election in November.
Defeats, of course, have a powerful way of focusing the mind.
Hi Rick!
So you’ve written two (amazing, extremely readable) books chronicling the evolution of the Republican Party, and you’re working on a third. What do you think of as the key lessons we should learn from what you’ve chronicled?
Eckhart Tolle asserts that the 60s hippies broke open or at least bruised the collective (exceptionalism) American “ego”. It seems like the “moral majority” religiosity and jingoism and “question American military leadership then hate the troops” manipulation is a fierce blowback from that intense consciousness raising by the DFH still.
Darcy, I think the most important lesson is related to the dialogue I’ve been having above on the question of “maturity.” It’s that if the public finds something about your politics alienating, if behooves you to at least try to understand what feels alienating to them. Democrats, especially Obama, are pretty damned good about that now. They weren’t always. Basically a major response among liberals to Reaganism was just to consider it a temporary aberration that would go away of its own accord.
So, when people ask you to say nice things about Nixon, you don’t mention détente?
Hi Rick–I admire your work.
I noticed in a Nixon panel a while ago that Paul Krugman asked you about “Nixonism getting institutionalized.” His book *Conscience of a Liberal* covers that ground.
But it always seemed kind of mysterious to me how the attitudes of one man could get “institutionalized.” But I think I figured it out. Nixon’s strategist Kevin Phillips was very good at doing the math on how the “hard hats” vs. the “elites” could win him a coalition (which is what the Phillips’ “Emerging Republican Majority” was all about). Kevin Phillips later codified that into a New Class (borrowing that term from James Burnham), which the Neoconservatives picked up and used it to kind of write GOP manifestos, which were then used to organize (albeit in a crazy, rightie populist way) and build the conservative infrastructure.
So is that about right?
My second question is, have you been reading the work of Sam Tanenhaus? Jim Sleeper had a great TPM post on Tanenhaus’s work a while ago that made a lot of things clear that I had been confused about. George Packer has been onto this stuff too.
(Sorry, I’ve been working on a Grand Unified Theory of Rightie Fail. How could the elites of a major party of the world’s supposed beacon of democracy be so jaw droppingly stupid? There has to be an explanation…)
Yes. And it works less and less every year. People seem to be getting that it’s the Republicans who have made us weak–get it on a visceral level. I even see that among all the “Villagers” these days who have been brow-beating torture defenders on TV, from Lawrence O’Donnell to Shep Smith. A heartening trend.
When Bob Dole saw Carter, Ford and Nixon sitting together at a reunion, he quipped, “See no evil, hear no evil and … Evil!”
It always amazed me that Nixon actually believed the DFH were in bed with the infiltrating commies … that degree of paranoia. Both the CIA and FBI were compromised by Nixon’s regime. Seems like the CIA is more corrupt now than the FBI given the torture fiasco?
Welcome, Rick. Thanks for being here. I, like Teddy, became politically aware during the period you focus on. In fact, my dad was Pat Brown’s press secretary from 60-Reagan. I learned to hate Nixon at the same time as long division.
Reading Dad’s papers, in particular press briefings from around the ‘62 election, where he urges the Governor not to respond to any questions about Nixon’s ratfucking tricks, I get such a feeling that, politically, things haven’t changed at all. Kinda like a soap opera you are forced to miss for months at a time and when you watch in again, the plot has not moved forward a bit. So, no, I don’t think we’re out of Nixonland at all and Karl Rove is Donald Segretti.
Are you sure that was paranoia? I knew plenty of hard-core Trots, Weatherpeople and other various fellow travelers in those days. Hell, when the USSR invaded Afghanistan there were people at the University of Illinois marching with signs that said “Hail the Red Army, Smash Muslim Resistance”.
If I had heard Dole say that, I would have pointed at him said, “See no evil, hear no evil, evil…and: Evil enabler!”
Check out “Dole, Robert” in the Nixonland index. As RNC chair, he was a huge part of the propaganda work to obscure White House ties to Watergate. It was all, he said, because the evil liberals at the Washington Post hated NIxon that they were picking on him.
Interesting question…not quite what you asked, but I think part of the maturation in having to move beyond the highs and magnificent idealism of the ’60s. How we have held on to the Kennedy myths..not to disparage the idealism, but we have not crafted a more geninely realistic vision that has resonance. That certainly is part of what Obama represents….a narrative still in progress.
Dick Cheney playing BIG DADDY to a smaller and smaller clan. I celebrate the consciousness raising and learning curve, but still feels glacial. And Obama with the Israel/Gaza minimization and denial and sustaining an “accountability coma” maybe to protect Dem cronies… But I love that the whistleblowers and down the line people are beginning to disclose. It seems the mainstream media, though, is still corporate-loyal and shining the flashlight at titillation not reality. Even with Mexican crisis. Afraid to offend “tourism” or so much a stretch. Tired of seeing charming youtube clips on news programs. We can do that ourselves!
A lot of what the Nixon administration was doing vis-a-vis radicals was taking them at their word. Plenty of them were quite open about admiring the idea of a violent overthrow of the United States government. The evil came in when Nixonites presumed Democratic senators had to be in league with the revolutionaries. That was the paranoia.
IIRC, Rove (and Segretti) and all the others still feel that they are only responding to Dick Tuck and have done nothing more than Tuck had done.
Well put. A huge part of 1960s liberalism and radicalism was a glib reading of America’s condition of “post-scarcity”–basically, since we’d supposedly overcome the basic problems of economic survival, America could accomplish damn well anything we put our mind to. Part of that arrogance led to Vietnam–which, of course, was started by liberals.
Yes, they did seem to convince themselves of that. But what Dick Tuck did was practical jokes–a pregnant woman with a sign reading “Nixon’s the One,” that sort of thing. No breakins. No coverups. Wild, wild, wild projection on their part, especially on Nixon’s part.
Maybe I am minimizing that situation, but I think it was part of the hubris of the power elite not to see the outrage of young citizens as coming from a systemic cause, something is rotten in the state of the United States, rather than from OUTSIDE agitators.
Wow. You took the battle right to Pat there, Rick.
There’s a lot to this point. The profound continuity of racial oppression in America, and the absolute moral decrepitude revealed in the Vietnam War as it spiraled out of control, a lot of older Americans simply preferred to ignore. It was a sort of madness.
Notice how proud he is to have lied and cheated.
He was Segretti’s real life apprentice, right? And the hubris of the rat-f*cking grew exponentially.
The change to the voting age also meant that the Democratic party rules allowed high school seniors to participate in primaries and caucuses if we’d be 18 by November. This enabled us to take Northern Virginia for McGovern, against establishment Democrats who wanted to be Uncommitted (for HHH) — anathema to teens who needed to end the Vietnam War right now.
And it goes on…I was on the parking lot today with car stickers next to me….TX Aggie and Reagan. Probably not much for immigration either.
There’s no evidence he was a Segretti apprentice, though we do definitely know it was his skill at dirty tricks as a Young Republican that got him hired to the RNC, and we also know in the Nixon reelection campaign he worked in a division headed by Ken Reitz, one of the dirty tricksters. He was probably too low level to have done anything of note.
It’s in the book!!
Rick, I want to pick up on something you mentioned earlier, that’s consistent with what you’ve said here and elsewhere about taking conservatism very seriously. There’s a real debate in political science and history circles about the “Southern strategy” story — which is to say, about the role of the South in the modern GOP. Does the South become Republican because Republicans appeal to old, peculiar racist tendencies there? Or does the South become Republican because southerners get richer, and because their anxieties look much like the anxieties of middle-class Americans elsewhere?
It seems our political shifts are based on race, culture issues, war/dissent/patriotism, etc, but seldom if ever on themes involving corporate/wealth/redistribution — basic questions of economic privilege and unfairness. And yet it’s hard to explain where we are now without resorting to that theme. Is there something that prevents this theme from gaining traction as something that defines our politics, and decides elections?
“Of course we gave money to Wallace to run as a Democrat! That’s politics!” Buchanan screeched.
How long did Pat last in Ford’s White House, by the way?
I agree, I just think the “movement” go co-opted by people who knew exactly what they were doing. There were plenty of agent provocateur’s around as well. It was a crazy time indeed.
Well, as one Mississippi Goldwater delegate put it at the 1964 convention that nominated Goldwater, “we’ve taken the Mason-Dixon line and moved it clear up to Canada.” What we have here, really, is a dual process: the South becoming more and more like the rest of America, and the rest of America becoming more and more like the South. Take the national spread of Evangelical–”Southern”–Christianity throughout the country in the 1970s and ’80s. At the same time, the authors you’re referring to–historians like Matt Lassiter and Kevin Kruse–have been demonstrating pretty convincingly that the moving force behind Southern Republicanism was largely upwardly mobile suburbanites, who made their (effectively racist) appeals in a new, “color-blind” language.
There were some very helpful grownups who showed up to help us young McGovernites learn the Democratic caucus rules — clean-cut fellahs in their thirties who no one seemed to know, who helped us get organized but didn’t show up at the mass meetings, when we really needed their numbers (if we hadn’t already learned from them how to swamp the establishment Dems.)
Ratfucking on a high plane — manipulating high school kids against their parents to sway a party’s presidential nominating contest.
It is crazymaking that the “moral majority” descendants with their wedge issues still have that media (and helped as always by them) cachet of righteousness, and the “hard right” that is fighting for MORALITY and respect of law rather than sound-bite “truthiness” still is disdained as being amoral hedonists. Spin that has spun through the decades. Talking the talk of moral superiority … and how Rove wound up manipulating and exploiting organized religions.
What do you think of the cherry-picking populism of the Republicans? They have the nerve to do that even now, after the financial trauma.
Teddy, what state was this in?
We had FBI agents come to our VVAW meetings. They were open meetings and the said they were vets! It’s interesting to read FOI stuff that was about YOU!
That’s interesting as we were college students going up against the establishment but since most of the rules for the Dem nomination had been re-written by the “McGovern Commission” the party power people really weren’t any better qualified to deal with the process than the college students were.
VVAW scared the shit out of Nixon, as I try to make plain in the book. The idea of war protesters who couldn’t be dismissed as sissies too scared to fight undermined Nixon’s entire ant-anti-war strategy. FBI attempts to sabotage them were serious and ongoing.
And then there was Jane Fonda. Her naivete didn’t help the cause, either.
The “mature” D party = the pre-Nixon R party.
VVAW = “Vietnam Veterans Against the War.”
That’s why the VVAW protested at both Miami conventions in 72.
“Those bums aren’t really veterans”! “That bum isn’t really the president”!
Ironic that Nixon’s self-wire tapping whammied him. The same way Jane Harmon who sabotaged FISA protest got caught in the wiretap web herself.
She got sandbagged by charlie for sure.
Virginia
That’s certainly one way of looking at it, though it’s too soon to tell what the current, “mature” D party will do — possibly quite a bit more than, say, the Eisenhower R party.
I hear other people say that Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld learned the real lessons of the Nixon years, 1) Don’t get caught 2) Classify everything 3)Don’t let them have any evidence.
I see that Cheney is also playing another game with claiming “National Security” for stuff that has nothing to do with national security so that he can claim secret knowledge that can never be disputed.
Are there other tricks that Cheney learned from the success or failures of Nixon that we aren’t paying attention to? And, more importantly, is there a strategy to bust open some of his tricks? Dick’s still embedded with his leave behinds and he’s still getting briefed by them.
Any evidence for your hypothesis? Lots for mine, like having the guys who were responsible for the financial mess in charge of fixing it. After all, they’re the only ones who know what’s going on. /s
Raven, I’m really proud of my account in NIXONLAND of VVAW at the Republican convention. Have you checked it out?
And there are fuckers in his shadow learning new lessons.
Then didn’t Reagan launch his campaign in MS? What kind of relationship did he have, or hide, with Nixon?
I’m sorry I haven’t but I just pulled the Amazon trigger.
Miami was even more surreal than Dewey Canyon III with the Cubans and the Negroes for Nixon.
To expand: My high school, in McLean (the one next door to the CIA) was rotten with kids of high-level Nixon White House appointees. They had to know what we were trying to do within the Democratic party; teachers were very involved too. Looking back, it would have been very easy to send national GOP apparatchiks to infiltrate our meetings to monitor and assist our efforts.
Rick, Nixonland was the first book I read this year. I graduated from college in 1966, was never part of demonstrations, but understood what it was all about and sympathized with it. Thought Nixon was a paranoid nutcase and couldn’t imagine why anyone would vote for him. Your book enabled me to see the other side. Thanks.
I’m not putting a hypothesis. I just said it’s too early to know, and quite possibly we’ll be pleasantly surprised.
The teachers in college and high school who were most influential for me were baby boomers who who were smart, thoughtful and at one time politically engaged (although what they taught me was not predominantly about being political).
What Teddy’s getting at–and I adduce evidence for this in NIXONLAND too–is that Nixon wanted to run against McGovern, not a more centrist candidate like Humphrey and Edmund Muskie, and part of what the whole “ratfucking” project was about was sabotaging those candidacies, but not McGovern’s. I wouldn’t be surprised if they also helped McGovern delegates win in the states.
To return to Pat Buchanan — hasn’t David Broder recanted his description of Muskie in tears in New Hampshire in the snow? I was surprised to hear Pat refer to it as if it was fact; well, not surprised, really, but it did go unchallenged by the esteemed Morning Joe panel.
Yes–I wasn’t quick enough to point that out.
He didn’t want to run against a decorated bomber pilot.
Battery’s running low, any last questions?
Can you talk about your next book on the Reagan years–is the focus different from Nixonland?
This was great…Thank you
Actually, I guess it’s on the runup to the Reagan years…
A real war hero from the heartland — it was one of the first examples of turning a Democrat’s strengths against him. We call it Rovian now, but it is really Nixonian.
To be topical and on topic: What were Nixon’s views on torture? Waterboarding of our soldiers? Did he consider their waterboarding “harsh interrogation” or torture?
Thanks man, I look forward to reading your book.
JJWFromME–we’ll see in five year! That’s when the manuscript’s due.
Thanks everyone so kindly for all your attention.
RP
Rick, thanks very much for this, and for the book — it’s a pleasure to read and talk about. See you soon.
This book sounds like a must read and I will! Thanks for your extensive explorations! As a baby boomer, I am sad and guilty my generation did not sustain and cultivate our political will.
Thanks Rick! Fantastic work.
Shit, he didn’t care how many people he killed, why would he have cared about torture? Read about the Phoenix Program.
If you haven’t read this book, please do. And share it with a young person for whom this era is ancient history, too. So much of our current politics has its wellsprings here.
Thanks, Rick and Eric, for a great chat today.
Teddy, yes he has, essentially:
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh112807.shtml
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com…..novak.html
And thanks to all at FDL.
Strategic Hamlets, too.
And Rolling Thunder.
America has hardly ever concerned itself with the fate of our enemies, especially when our enemies don’t look like the majority of us.
thank you for coming to speak with us mr perlstein – please visit again soon.
This is a great interview with Rick, folks, if you’re interested:
http://reason.com/news/show/126869.html
I was thinking more along the lines of getting a memo where Nixon called waterboarding of Americans by Vietnamese torture. I say this because on talk radio this week they are very clear that waterboarding is not torture. In fact it would also be interesting to know what St. Ronnie thought about waterboarding and torture (of our people of course, and maybe of others.)
Order you own copy of Winter Soldier and hear it straight. (Check the upcoming screening tab for a picture of your truly)!
Gotcha, sorry, I still have a really bad attitude about that motherfuker.
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
Rick, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us.
Eric, Thank you very much for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Everyone, this is a great book, if you haven’t bought one yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
I hear ya. I always like to find examples where their heroes support something we believe or where they failures support what they believe. It’s the reverse of their, “Well Clinton…”
Thanks for being that profound a messenger!
So many couldn’t get passed and forgive the strength of Kerry and you vets willing to speak truth to American exceptionalism mythology. The backlash of projected guilt and thus anger continues on. Authoritarian patriarchy … never question authority. American ego. Still such a danger. And a media that seems more and more diluted, compromised or in the case of newspapers disappearing. But, you certainly did add profound legitimacy to the cause of justice and humanism. You still are doing that.
Teddy’s diary is promoted!
Bad Nelson Loses His Student Loan Battle
Finding out about Dick Tuck! Wow. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Rick and Eric, this has been a wonderful discussion.
And a great advertisement for the book, it’s great.
belated thank you
I’m cool down here @ EPU-land & thank Rick for showing up & answering questions. My comment is a simple one, ever notice Nixon signed lots more progressive legislation than Clinton?