As Digby notes, there were already serious objections to the use of torture in 2002 — the FBI chief Muller had already refused to let his agents participate in the CIA’s "coercive interrogations" in June of 2002 (per Marcy’s timeline, the Bybee memo didn’t make them legal until August 1).
But it’s not like the FBI was the only one who had a problem. On October 1, Major General Michael Dunlavey sent a memo to General James Hill, Commander of US Southern Command, requesting the authority to use "aggressive interrogations techniques" like those use in SERE training. The memo reached Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Joint Staff solicited views of the military services. Here’s what came back in November 2002 (PDF):
Air Force: "serious concerns regarding the legality of many of the proposed techniques…Some of these techniques could be construed as ‘torture’ as that crime is defined by 18 U.S.C 2340." Further, they were concerned that "implementation of these techniques could preclude the ability to prosecute the individuals interrogated," because "Level III techniques will almost certainly result in any statements obtained being declared as coerced and involuntary, and therefore inadmissible….Additionally, the techniques described may be subject to challenge as failing to meet the requirements outlined in military order to treat detainees humanely and to provide them with adequate food, water, shelter and medical treatment." They called for an in-depth legal review.
Criminal Investigative Task Force (CITM): Chief Legal Advisor to the CITF at Gitmo, Maj Sam W. McCahon, writes "Both the utility and the legality of applying certain techniques identified in the memorandum listed above are, in my opinion, questionable. Any policy decision to use the Tier III techniques, or any techniques inconsistent with the analysis herein, will be contrary to my recommendation. The aggressive techniques should not occur at GTMO where both CITF and the intelligence community are conducting interviews and interrogations." He calls for further review and concludes by saying "I cannot advocate any action, interrogation or otherwise, that is predicated upon the principal that all is well if the ends justify the means and others are not aware of how we conduct our business."
Army: The Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations and Plans writes: "As set forth in the enclosed memoranda, the Army interposes significant legal, policy and practical concerns regarding most of the Category II and all of the Category III techniques proposed." They recommend "a comprehensive legal review of this proposal in its entirety by the Department of Defense and the Department of Justice."
Navy: recommends that "more detailed interagency legal and political review be conducted on proposed techniques."
Marine Corp: expressed strong reservations, since "several of the Category II and III techniques arguably violate federal law, and would expose our service members to possible prosecution." Called for further review.
Legal adviser to the Joint Chiefs, Jane Dalton, commenced the review that was requested by the military services. But before it was concluded, Myers put a stop to it — at the request of Steven Jim Haynes, the Department of Defense General Counsel, who was told by Rumsfeld that things were "taking too long." Over the objections of the Army, the Navy, the Marines, the Air Force and the Criminal Investigation Task Force, Haynes recommended that the "aggressive technique" be approved without further investigation. He testified that Wolfowitz, Feith and Myers concurred. On December 2, 2002 Rumsfeld approved Haynes’ recommendation with the famous comment "I stand for 8-10 hours a day. Why is standing limited to 4 hours?"
One of the conclusions of the Senate Armed Services Committee report is that Myers screwed up:
Conclusion 11: Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Richard Myers’s decision to cut short the legal and policy review of the October 11,2002 GTMO request initiated by his Legal Counsel, then-Captain Jane Dalton, undermined the military’s review process. Subsequent conclusions reached by Chairman Myers and Captain Dalton regarding the legality of interrogation techniques in the request followed a grossly deficient review and were at odds with conclusions previously reached by the Anny, Air Force, Marine Corps, and Criminal Investigative Task Force.
They also conclude that "Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld’s authorization of aggressive interrogation techniques for use at Guantanamo Bay was a direct cause of detainee abuse there. Secretary Rumsfeld’s December 2,2002 approval of Mr. Haynes’s recommendation that most of the techniques contained in GTMO’s October 11, 2002 request be authorized, influenced and contributed to the use of abusive techniques, including military working dogs, forced nudity, and stress positions, in Afghanistan and Iraq."
Objections to torture aren’t the exclusive terrain, as Bill Kristol likes to pretend, of "President Obama" and his "leftist lawyers" looking back on a "bright, sunny safe day in April" with "preening self-righteousness" and forgetting how "dark and painful" that chapter in our history was.
When Donald Rumsfeld approved "enhanced interrogation techniques" for Guantanamo Bay in 2002, he did so in defiance of the recommendations of the Army, the Navy, the Marines, the Air Force and the Criminal Investigation Task Force.



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Buhs demeaned America with this. Even conservative military leaders saw it as wrong and illegal.
Good post, Jane.
So glad these folks are speaking out…to rebut the leftist, sissy cries.
Maybe Rummy can join Hannity in his waterboarding caper.
Good for the Armed Services. Unfortunately, bad for the top generals, but that’s nothing new. In Vietnam, the generals were complicit long after the need to end the war was recognized. They are too hungry for more stars.
Also unfortunately, bad for the CIA. This group needs to be disbanded as an operational arm. The various fields can be farmed out to other agencies as appropriate, Military intel to DOD, Crimminal intel to DOJ, Commercial to Commerce, political to State. Let the CIA exist as an aggregator only.
Also, as Aeon pointed out in Marcy’s current thread on Ali Soufan’s NYTimes Op-Ed, CIA interrogators weren’t enthusiastic, either. From Soufan:
I’m thinking Cheney inserted a bunch of his own Team B players right into the middle of this with these contractors and they are the ones who drove this. Aeon also pointed out that this would explain the enthusiastic welcome for Obama at CIA headquarters. He is banning contractor interrogations.
The whole thing is going to blow soon. There’s too much pressure building up, facts are becoming incontrovertible.
Kaboom!
You betcha”’I always thought that blond Blackwater kid was capable of anything. And that was the report even in New Orleans.
Bush demeaned, defiled, and desecrated America with this
fixed it for ya
so was Myers complicit,or not?
This is exactly why I find the proposal to not prosecute the people who were “just following orders” so reprehensible. There are service men and women who were scapegoated by the Bushies rotting in prison right now for “just following orders”. At least one of them refused to do anymore torture and had to be re-assigned. It’s a catch 22 for the lower ranks to refuse an unlawful order, (as is their duty to), and I have personal experience in how very difficult it is to refuse to obey an order from a superior, (though I was an aircraft mechanic, not a prison guard). How is it fair to the people who were scapegoated but whose sentences I support because torture is fucking illegal, that they rot in prison while CIA operatives and Blackwater mercenaries get off scott free?
Prosecute them all. If you don’t have the balls to prosecute Cheney and Rumsfeld, then you shouldn’t prosecute anybody.
Called the church that drove me out for my antiwar views yesterday. I requested a letter of apology from the church council for their blind support of this antichrist attitude.
Asked the pastor of 500 people how many Iraqies have died since the war began.
He said 1 Are you trying to trick me? 2 he guesses there may 20,000 after saying he didn’t know how many military have died.
The countries compass is broken.
There is a crack in everything. That’s how the light gets in.
–Leonard Cohen
I think you’re right. This whole business of torturing to establish a non existent link between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein to gin up a war is going to push it over the top I think.
How sad….aren’t you glad you left?
In other words, the people who actually knew what they were doing were against torture, whereas the idiots were for it.
It is reprehensible, but it also allows them to tell what they know so that the monsters at the top get busted. Drip, drip, drip….
Boom goes the dynamite.
What was the basis of Myers’ intervention — simply pressure from Rumsfeld? That works well for those who wanted to torture, doesn’t it?
It’s pretty clear why they had to hire the SERE trainers to design their Torture Program — no decent interrogators wanted any part of the thing.
My Bold who are these others? Other Lawyers, Congress, the American People the UN?
Who did he think should be informed about what Bush was doing?
wasn’t done working on comment, inadvertently hit submit
You are soooooo spot on.
You can see it in the way wingnuts are taking to the media to attempt to defend the indefensible.
It’s also telling how people (Gen. Karpinsky, Ron Suskind, etc.) who were marginalized when attempting to speak truth to power before are now out taking well deserved victory laps which applies even more pressure.
Actually, the real sissies are the ones who engaged in (and who are now defending) these practices. Classic bully mentality. Hell, these revelations are so egregious that even a Faux guy took a stand against them. (When Faux news performers start jumping ship, you know it must be bad.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..&eurl
That’s putting it mildly.
I know we need the bucks but a close combat training ad prominent at upper right on the page?
Actually, I feel kinda sorry for Cheney, Rice, Yoo, Bybee, etal. This ordeal must be terribly stressful for them. Hence, I think they should all be encouraged to take a nice vacation. I recommend Europe in general, and Spain in particular.
William the Bloody likes to call us Fascists, but if Bush was a German in WW2 does Anyone doubt that would be executed for what he has done?
Between the torture “drip, drip, drip”, and the bailout “drip, drip, drip”, we’re looking at “The Economic Recovery Act” for lawyers…and hopefully, for those who run “Supermax” prisons.
Kristol is ignoring the known facts that Pres. Boy W brought an aggressive and lying agenda with him (to go after the ones that threatened “my dad” let alone the ones with oil). It is not really a bright sunny April for folks who have witnessed the lawlessness and lies of the last 8 years.
” Hours after being presented with more than a quarter million signatures demanding that he appoint a special independent prosecutor to investigate Bush-era torture practices, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said Wednesday that “no one is above the law” and that his department would “follow the evidence.”
He did not commit to appointing a special prosecutor.
That lack of commitment from the nation’s top law enforcer isn’t what a coalition of groups advocating an immediate torture investigation were hoping to hear. Wednesday afternoon, the American Civil Liberties Union, Moveon.org, Democrats.com, Firedoglake.com and other groups met Holder outside of a House committee room, where Holder was scheduled to testify, and presented him with petitions, the ACLU announced. “
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/….._0422.html
Nice post.
After reading this phrase, the Bush White House contempt for weapons inspections delaying the (or more correctly ‘their’) Iraq invasion immediately came to mind.
The Rachel Maddow “disambiguation” video that FDL linked to last night or early this morning in a previous post and this post make it ever clearer that plans for torture started at the top.
Where’s that abc interview with Cheney where he essentially admits that he approved torture?
With all these legal opinions just how did the WH/Justice Dept lawyers ever conclude that torture was ok?
I take it they just ignored all the issues the Army, Marines, Airforce had, I take it they are going to claim they Never saw these memos?
Kind of like Condi claimed not to have known about torture?
The problem with “the ends justify the means” occurs when the ends are not reached.
The problem with “history is written by the victor” occurs when you lose.
The majority of the front-line troops and staff understood this, but the leadership, having never actually assumed personal responsibility for errors in their lives, did not.
We all pay the price.
I recommend Somalia
Excellent suggestion. I hear Mogadishu is very nice this time of year.
Thank you for that link (I think).
For I am now certain the end is near, and monkeys may fly out of my behind at any moment.
Because I found myself agreeing with Judy Miller about something.
Unbelievable!
At least the truth is getting out now Kristol looks increasingly foolish defending lies as more and more evidence comes out.
The GOP should pay Kristol to shut up the man has Negative Cred from being wrong so often about Everything.
He hurts rather than helps the GOP. The GOP needs someone at least one person who talks facts and inspires trust.
Elizabeth De La Vega thinks a special prosecutor is not the corect approach in that it leads immediately to grand jury secrecy. A non-partisan congressional comittee can let in the sunshine more easily. But where can a non-partisan committee find a panel?
We do it every day all over America. Committees of 12 members convened to determine the facts of a particular matter. And a surprising number of them are capable of reaching not only broad concensus, but unanimity of opinion.
Ideas about the one person?
A psych negative criteria is “inappropriate affect”. To me, that is the most fitting phrase, after lying, for Kristol. The man absolutely smiles all the time….when he is saying/hearing nothing funny. Very creepy.
It is pretty scary, alright.
The fact that rumsfeld, at the urging of 3 authoritarian neocons, shortcircuited the law is not surprising. What is surprising is that no one objected. No one felt strongly enough about this subject to do anything after the initial objection. In fact, it looks like they all fell into line like little robots.
Whatever happened to the military boast of integrity? The fact that obeying an illegal order is no excuese? I was only a lowly enlisted man, but I got all the classes about not following an illegal order. Looks like the entire officer corps slept thru those classes along with the ones on integrity.
The militaries excuese is that the officers in charge were the “perfumed princes”-the politicians, the brown nosers, the ones who would never actually go to a battlefield-not the warriors. However, IMO the taint has spread thruout the officer corps, the EM-Enlisted Man- see this and take note, however it is always the EM who get burned, not the officers.
Remember this, there were teams sent from GITMO to Iraq to “train” the locals in the “new” interrogation techniques. Remember the “few bad apples” the EM who were all from WV guard unit? No officers were ever charged,(other than the female Bgn-now col, nat guard) no one ever checked out their story that they were “softening up” the prisoners for the CIA teams. To bad, but the EM took the bullet for the entire bush administration. Following orders.
From my experience, the entire CIA has for many years been vastly overrated. Their competence remains in question, their reaction to pressure by throwing out all the laws made by congress to keep that very pressure at bay tells me that we have some very serious institutional problems with not only the CIA but with all branchs of the military. And leave us not forget the FBI-Fumbling Bunch of Idiots-sure, they did the right thing by refusing to become involved, but then they kept what was happening to themselves. Their moral imperative was to report to someone what was going on. A quick detour. When faced with watergate and the fact that all the political leaders were involved in criminal activity, the FBI, thru its mouthpiece-deepthroat-insured that “we the people” found out what the govt was doing, what did the current FBI do? Anything?
Back to the years 2002-2008. All I hear is……crickets. No one went to the newspapers-altho, given what the WaPost and the NYT did from 2001 onward-cheerleading the bush administration and printing their lies as truth-they might have had a somewhat difficult time finding an honest reporter along with finding a paper willing to report the truth.
The great fallacy of a republic form of govt. The nation of laws not men, is that is is so easily subverted by those who would lie cheat and steal from the very public that elected them. When the MSM fails in its constitutional duty to keep the public informed then great crimes can go unreported. When the political party in power when these crimes are committed fail to police themselves and instead actually protect and lie for the criminals and the MSM fails to keep the public informed, then the entire system breaks down. A relatively small group of committed people can in fact take over a republic form of govt if they start out being the ones in charge by simply subverting the laws intended to keep the coup from happening. As we saw over the past 8 years. Entire cabinet agencies were subverted. Parts of the military were subverted. Could they have managed to remain in power? I believe that if the plotters had been competent they could have. If the electorate had remained apathetic, if no real candidate had emeraged to energise the sheeple, then yes, the coup could very well have continued, same plans, same management, different faces. What if mccain had won. roves rethug majority could have continued. subversion of the DoJ would have continued, dems would have been jailed for simply being dems. The authoritarians would have taken over the govt, if they had only been competent.
We are by no means out of the woods. The neocons, the authoritarians are still there, still trying. If they ever become competent they could easily take over. As long as Obama attempts to sweep the massive corruption of govt under the rug, it could easily happen in 2012. The sheeple have short attention spans, the rethugs are already revising the history of the bush years and Obama is being quite passive about it all. I have no idea where he stands on many subjects involving the bush misadministration. Congress likewise has been very passive when it comes to enforcing the law. Reid/Pelosi have allowed the rethugs to get away with everything. Allowed the bush administration to roll them. What do we do? Other than bringing all of the law breakers to justice, I don’t know. But if we do nothing, if we allow our laws to be flouted, then our very existance, our boast that we are a nation of laws, becomes a very hollow boast indeed
Has any petition in the last 50 years actually changed any govt position?
and many manage to convict innocent people also. Even send innocent people to death row.
Great post, Jane!
It does seem that things are coming to a boil, and that there is soon to be a flood of damning evidence, or “suicides”, or some GOP distraction/obfuscation, to refocus Amurika in its war against radical Islam.
I think that there have got to be plenty of people who were involved in the crafting of the “torture culture”, or its ancillary elements, who are recognizing that the jig is up, and it’s time to spill the beans and protect their own hides. Anyone on the inside of the Bush frauds, though, is probably aware that these are very dangerous people and that they will do all they can to silence the truth.
The death of the Freddie Mac CFO is a case in point…
from the Wayne Madsen Report~~
It’s time to get serious about supporting the troops. Decapitate the military chain of command in the interest of service morale and good order:
1. Retire every top general and admiral who served under the Bush-Cheyney regime.
2. Court marshall every officer who was complicit in war crimes, either directly or by interfering with investigations.
3. Recall honorable officers who retired rather than comply with illegal orders and give them the positions vacated by those who disgraced themselves. Promote them and have them get on with purifying the services.
Haynes – currently counsel for Chevron. Almost appointed to the 4th Circuit. Has that interesting history with Mora and with testifying about memo circulation before the SJC.
As usual Jane, thank you for always digging deeper. What a relief to know that so many pushed against this. It is time for all of us to push back HARD!Everyone, please contact your Senators and your Representative and tell them how you feel. Contact them by email by going to VoteSmart.Org and put in your zip in the upper left.
Fear is all they have to sell. Lie to go to war. Torture to get false confessions. Free bonus, more “enemies”. Bush told us they hate us for our freedoms. Who is the “they” of which he spoke since HE took us back to the time before the Magna Carta? They raised the drumbeat and charge against any who questioned them as traitors while they knew they mislead us. Why, they asked many, do you hate America? Seems to me that any who wished this great country ill could have had no better effects than those given to us by this crowd.
The price of these fear based untruths is too high in lives, treasure and rights. Contact Holder: BY E-MAIL: E-mails to the Department of Justice, including the Attorney General, may be sent to AskDOJ@usdoj.gov. Department of Justice Main Switchboard – 202-514-2000 Office of the Attorney General -202-353-1555 http://www.usdoj.gov/contact-us.html
so did the cia I might add
I have said time and again, we really need to get who was involved in the programs, when and by who they were recruited, I am telling you these people are going to be cheney’s team b, recruited by cheney or someone else recruited by cheney and this will be a smoking gun
Thank you. I was wondering when someone would start wondering. Too many convenient suicides, too many small airplane accidents.
If I were going to off myself, hanging would not be my method of choice.
Acids stain you
and rivers are damp.
Razors pain you
and drugs cause cramp.
Gas smells awful
Nooses give
What the hell
You might as well live.
Pity that Bill Haynes was working for Dick Cheney and not the DoD that hired him. He should be high on the list of potential targets for investigation for war crimes. He worked hand-in-fist with David Addington to impose the adoption of torture techniques on unwilling DoD legal staff and other personnel.
I think it is time to reform the CIA.
1. Prosecute as many criminals as possible.
2. Retire its management.
3. Restrict its mission to intelligence gathering
4. Bring in new management.
Covert ops, if they in fact have value, are, I think, best left to the military proper.
Krawk!
Thanks Jane.
A few days ago, I made the ”let’s not dwell on this, because we have so much else to do” case. But, I *do* prefer we prosecute Rummy, W., Wolfowitz, anyone who broke US laws designed to distinguish us from our ideological foes. (E.g., a year ago, I petitioned my Republican Congressman to impeach Bush. I knew I was ”wasting my time” but…)
Now, where’s the latest petition?
Forgot to add: I like O’s ”hands off the followers” approach. Prosecuting Lyndie Englands doesn’t discourage future Dubyas and Cheneys.