Comments on: Joe Klein: For CIA, Laws Were Made to be Broken http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/ Firedoglake weblog Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:07:55 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: TheObnox http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884915 TheObnox Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:24:38 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884915 <p>Here’s the finer point underlining Klein’s view: given that spies break some laws here and there, breaking any and all laws is therefore a regular part of their jobs.</p> <p>It’s one thing to be using false identities or wiretaps in pursuit of espionage. It’s quite another to kidnap an innocent man off the street, fly him halfway around the world, torture him for months or years, and maybe let him go free after a decade or so, if he’s lucky. And if he’s not lucky? Ask Hassan Ghul.</p> <p>Klein has basically pre-emptively decided that it’s not just okay for the CIA to break laws, but that we might make them mad if we tell them to stop. It’s a world view that Dick Cheney surely shares.</p> Here’s the finer point underlining Klein’s view: given that spies break some laws here and there, breaking any and all laws is therefore a regular part of their jobs.

It’s one thing to be using false identities or wiretaps in pursuit of espionage. It’s quite another to kidnap an innocent man off the street, fly him halfway around the world, torture him for months or years, and maybe let him go free after a decade or so, if he’s lucky. And if he’s not lucky? Ask Hassan Ghul.

Klein has basically pre-emptively decided that it’s not just okay for the CIA to break laws, but that we might make them mad if we tell them to stop. It’s a world view that Dick Cheney surely shares.

]]> By: Neil http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884817 Neil Wed, 22 Apr 2009 03:46:47 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884817 <p>can anyone say Joe Klein has cognitive dissonance?</p> can anyone say Joe Klein has cognitive dissonance?

]]> By: manys http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884556 manys Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:30:16 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884556 <p>No no no, it’s “extra-legal” because it has “extra.” It’s like, “Legal Plus: NOW WITH MORE LEGAL.”</p> No no no, it’s “extra-legal” because it has “extra.” It’s like, “Legal Plus: NOW WITH MORE LEGAL.”

]]> By: robspierre http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884550 robspierre Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:19:27 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884550 <p>I would argue that NOT punishing criminal elements hurts morale–at least it hurts the kind of morale we want.</p> I would argue that NOT punishing criminal elements hurts morale–at least it hurts the kind of morale we want.

]]> By: constantweader http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884462 constantweader Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:11:23 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884462 <p>Klein’s argument, like most on the right, boils down to a jingoistic belief in “American exceptionalism.” If we do it, it must be okay. You could, you know, torture Klein just a teensy bit, & he would say torture of our enemies or suspected enemies was wrong, but he’d never actually believe it. I have come to believe that those like Klein, whose job it is to expose torture but who choose instead to excuse it, suffer from some sociopathology for which there is no known cure. I wish I were kidding. </p> <p>The Constant Weader at <a href="http://www.RealityChex.com" rel="nofollow">www.RealityChex.com</a></p> Klein’s argument, like most on the right, boils down to a jingoistic belief in “American exceptionalism.” If we do it, it must be okay. You could, you know, torture Klein just a teensy bit, & he would say torture of our enemies or suspected enemies was wrong, but he’d never actually believe it. I have come to believe that those like Klein, whose job it is to expose torture but who choose instead to excuse it, suffer from some sociopathology for which there is no known cure. I wish I were kidding.

The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

]]> By: Mary http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884446 Mary Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:04:09 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884446 <p>So does Klein support extra-legal action by Israeli agents in the US, as long as they are for the greater good?</p> So does Klein support extra-legal action by Israeli agents in the US, as long as they are for the greater good?

]]> By: Mugshot http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884444 Mugshot Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:22:31 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884444 <p>The CIA is too big too fail! Too big have laws enforced upon it!</p> <p>The “Masters of the Universe” are always too big to be treated like the faceless nobodies in the rest of the country.</p> <p>Beltway journalists are a trip.</p> The CIA is too big too fail! Too big have laws enforced upon it!

The “Masters of the Universe” are always too big to be treated like the faceless nobodies in the rest of the country.

Beltway journalists are a trip.

]]> By: DougWatts http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884443 DougWatts Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:11:27 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884443 <p>Does extra-legal mean <i>really really, super duper</i> legal?</p> Does extra-legal mean really really, super duper legal?

]]> By: BlueCrow http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884442 BlueCrow Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:04:49 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884442 <p>“Extra-legal” is not just another way of saying illegal, it’s really a dishonest attempt to say that something is not really illegal.</p> <p>Some CIA employees (and perhaps military personnel at Guantanamo) are guilty of torture and murder* and some members of the W. administration are guilty of those crimes because these people were following their illegal policies/orders. Obama’s desire to give all of these people a pass is illegal, immoral, and a violation of his Constitutional oath.</p> <p>Prosecuting those involved might hurt morale? I have seldom heard such a morally and legally bankrupt argument. Where is the law written that before someone is prosecuted for violating a law the prosecutor must consider if his/her actions will harm the morale of the accused or those they live with? Jesus Christ, that’s such dishonest bullshit!</p> <p>Might hurt their efficacy in continuing to torture and murder?* Oh, please!</p> <p>No amount of bullshit will cover the fact that if the Obama administration does not prosecute anyone for torture or murder in these cases, then Obama has condoned these acts and we will only see more of them in the future. Torture and murder are not just random indiscretions that can be allowed to go unprosecuted and still maintain any credibility for the rule of law.</p> <p>*If someone dies as a result of you acting feloniously you are guilty of murder. People did die as a result of torture by US personnel, ergo, some of these people are guilty of murder.</p> “Extra-legal” is not just another way of saying illegal, it’s really a dishonest attempt to say that something is not really illegal.

Some CIA employees (and perhaps military personnel at Guantanamo) are guilty of torture and murder* and some members of the W. administration are guilty of those crimes because these people were following their illegal policies/orders. Obama’s desire to give all of these people a pass is illegal, immoral, and a violation of his Constitutional oath.

Prosecuting those involved might hurt morale? I have seldom heard such a morally and legally bankrupt argument. Where is the law written that before someone is prosecuted for violating a law the prosecutor must consider if his/her actions will harm the morale of the accused or those they live with? Jesus Christ, that’s such dishonest bullshit!

Might hurt their efficacy in continuing to torture and murder?* Oh, please!

No amount of bullshit will cover the fact that if the Obama administration does not prosecute anyone for torture or murder in these cases, then Obama has condoned these acts and we will only see more of them in the future. Torture and murder are not just random indiscretions that can be allowed to go unprosecuted and still maintain any credibility for the rule of law.

*If someone dies as a result of you acting feloniously you are guilty of murder. People did die as a result of torture by US personnel, ergo, some of these people are guilty of murder.

]]> By: earlofhuntingdon http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884441 earlofhuntingdon Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:59:26 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/21/joe-klein-for-cia-laws-were-made-to-be-broken/#comment-1884441 <p>The doom and gloom over-reaction is a routine straw man argument, Joe, worthy of Karl Rove. Find a more credible one. If you think torture is A-OK as official US Government policy, that it will help keep us safe and win friends and influence people overseas, raise your hand, Joe, and read the responses in your column.</p> The doom and gloom over-reaction is a routine straw man argument, Joe, worthy of Karl Rove. Find a more credible one. If you think torture is A-OK as official US Government policy, that it will help keep us safe and win friends and influence people overseas, raise your hand, Joe, and read the responses in your column.

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