Can anyone say “Geneva Conventions”? wink wink, nudge nudge

US laws much like our hope has been broken.

I can only imagine that turning large numbers of CIA personnel into soulless, torturing goons has been a boon for morale too.

-G

Big Dan is hammering home the truth today about the lies, blackmail, conspiracy and treason – with plenty of links and video:

http://bigdanblogger.blogspot.com/

I really wish obama would purge the cia from cheney’s appointments, they’re ALL going to be “team b”, they’re going to mole for cheney and they’re going to create flase data to justify more unrest

Yes! I actually would like to see a major purge in all departments, and I’m not so sure that a do-over in Congress would be a bad idea. With term limits.

Funnily enough, the CIA rank-and-filers seem to be quite happy with Obama — probably because they oppose Bush-style torturing, too.

Klein says that exposing activity is gong to hurt “morale.”

Good God! They’re a rogue outfit that is ignoring their constutional constraints. There morale damn well needs to be hurt. Their feeling too.

Thus far, nobody has lost their job, been demoted, or even been reprimanded for this crime spree against humanity, except for Charles Graner and some other low-level soldiers.

My head is exploding.

If torture works, it’s a crime.

If torture does not work, it’s a crime.

Why can they not understand this?

Also, the law is not a private matter between Obama and the C.I.A. He can’t just make a deal with them to sweep everything under the rug. He has no right to do that.

The eternal problem was always expressed either by Dostoyevski or else Nixon. One or the other answers all questions.

In Crime and Punishment, Raskolinkov is called to the station to answer certain inquiries regarding a double murder. And he in the process of the interview proclaims the folly of charging a Napoleon with stealing chickens, although troops must forage for the greater good and all. Yes, replies Inspector Porfiry (if I’m not mistaken), but what if a mere chicken thief supposes he is Napoleon?

Crime and Punishment is all a matter of status. As Nixon says, if the president orders it, then it’s no crime.

I think I disagree. I can cut these guys a break. You’re right that “extra-legal” is an absurd way of saying “illegal.” I can’t say, however, that our spies must always obey all of our laws. I tend to agree with Klien, generally. But he’s speakibng in connection with the “torture memos.” This isn’t about spying. It’s about torture. Decreased efficacy? Bullshit. Torture has not and will not advance our interests in any way and it didn’t work. Morale? I doubt it. Except for the sociopaths who just get jollies at the thought of beating the piss out of a “bad guy.” They know they can do their jobs without torturing people. And frankly, i don’t give a shit about their morale. they have a job to do and it can’t be fun. I doubt they joined up for the chanxce to torture someone. And, for me, it’s not just that torture is illegal. There has to be a line drawn when we’re talking about physical abuse.

So under a J.Edgar Hoover styled regime the CIA would range how wide and deep?

The mindless parroting of thinking and points of view that enforcing any rule of law consequences which Joe Klein is doing here serves no purpose other than to politicise law enforcement or introduce a unknowable/no limits seen erosion of equal application and enforcement.

G.W.Bush,Richard Cheney,AG Alberto Gonzales,Tenet and Hayden are not entitled to shapeshift the rule of law to serve venal politics,hollowed out ethics or inflict political favortism/disfavor.

This notion of retribution is fully swiss cheezed on the logic of it being brought up in this or any case of rule of law,a day in court and punishment or nonpunishment being meted out.

So Bernie Madoff should go free because going after him is retribution?

This kind of thinking is nonsense. Joe Klein is peddling nonsense.

This is the kind of legal fashionism that allows the likes of Adolf Hitler or Josef Stalin or a Marcos or Mobutu or Mugabe to flourish.

It is not good Americanism in any sense. It is nonsense.

Someone needs to fill the ol’ JokeLine in on his ignorance:

CIA “Agents” are not really considered “agents” – they are really “officers” of the United States. (Not really different, in analysis of their status than, say, Army officers or Navy officers.) Their job, in that spy-world, is not to break the law, but rather to cultivate contacts among the populace they are targeting and induce (seduce, or persuade) those contacts (who have access to desirable secrets) into breaking the laws of their own countries.

All ol’ Joke would have to do is look at any of the prominent espionage cases of recent years – in all of them (Hansen, etc.) the guy actually compromising the secrets was a local who was doing the actual spying. The Russian/Soviet guy (who would be the analog of the CIA agent) who Joke thinks of as a “Spy” was doing stuff like picking up discarded papers in a park.

And, FWIW, that’s what the CIA officers overseas do – they cultivate sources and contacts and persuade them to betray their own countries or movements by givin them secrets, then relay that information to their higher-ups.

As to the operations officers, pretty much the same analysis obtains. They might do some breaking and entering, but the interrogations and such which were actually torture were, AFAIK, all done in cooperation or connivance with local law enforcement in those foreign countries. They might have been breaking laws, but it was the imprimatur of the local country saying “it’s OK, don’t worry.” I really doubt that any of the CIA torturers ever had anything to worry about from the Pakistanis bringing criminal torture (or false imprisonment) charges against them.

rather then term limits what we need is public financing of campaigns

even with term limits big money WILL buy law

no more corporate law

Actually, I think it goes back to Plato, and “Who will guard the guardians?”

It is impossible to square “extra-legal” (”outside the law”) behavior with being a nation founded on the rule of laws. The laws need to apply equally to everyone, period.

I believe the real professionals, not team b, would be ecstatic if he prosecuted the criminals on cheney’s team

raw story has a cia officer telling us just that

Last night, Jon Stewart had a great short snippet of Karl Rove saying the enhanced interrogation techniques have been “ruined”. Stewart’s takedown of that line was classic.

The CIA is not only named after George HW Bush, he literally owns the place. He is the Shadow Government leader under David Rockefeller and Henry Kissinger.

Watch how the Stanford Financial ponzi scheme melts away with no charges being filed, and keep in mind that both AIG and Stanford were laundering a shitload of money for the CIA’s (Poppy’s) drug operations. Stanford will get off scott-free, as putting him on the witness stand would review who he was really working for.

Once you wrap your head around the fact that they are ALL criminals and can ALL blackmail each other, it begins to make more sense.

http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/3820

Klein, like it or not, states reality.

The CIA and CIA agents are in the business of lying. That’s what they do.

Read about Allen Dulles, Dick Helms, and William Colby, for example. They lied about important matters and even admitted as much. Dulles told the Warren Commission that a CIA agent would lie under oath.

GHW Bush always has lied about his involvement with the CIA in the early 1960s.

Maybe they shouldn’t deceive the American people. But let’s not pretend they don’t.

I never proof as closely as I should either. It bothers the hell out of me when I miss a mistake in my initial post, because the email list only goes out on the first one.

I find little evidence these days that our government cares anything at all about the desires and needs of the population, the party platform or common sense and decency. No matter how we vote we’re getting much of the same crap in the end.

I wonder if I’ll be able to afford health care before this terminal disease kills me. I voted with high hopes. It’s not looking like anything is going to change anytime soon. If we’re blowing off torture prosecutions, could we at least get a move on with health care reform? Some of us really, really need it.

OT – stiglitz and johnson testifying at the jec and warren’s cop questioning geithner:

http://jec.senate.gov/index.cf…..e56df64713

http://cop.senate.gov/hearings…..ithner.cfm

THIS is some GREAT FRIGGING news;

Pressure mounted on President Obama on Monday for more thorough investigation into harsh interrogations of terrorism suspects under the Bush administration, even as he tried to reassure the Central Intelligence Agency that it would not be blamed for following legal advice.

Aides told the Times the Administration had not ruled out “legal sanctions for the Bush lawyers who developed the legal basis for the use of the techniques,”

they spoil my fun though with the following;

though the article says they probably won’t be prosecuted.

Conventions against Torture

an interesting site:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

i am infuriated by what rahm, axelrod & gibbs all reported about obama not wanting to look backward’s in regard to prosecuting the authors of the memo’s, yet yesterday obama said this:

“What makes the United States special, and what makes you special, is precisely the fact that we are willing to uphold our values and ideals even when it’s hard — not just when it’s easy,” Obama told about 1,000 CIA employees…”

i am starting to feel like i am living the movie “king of hearts”, where a whole town leaves as the german army advances, except for the escapees from the asylum, who convince the soldiers, even w/ their “unusual” behavoir that they are the actual townspeople. what is authentic here??????????

GHW Bush always has lied about his involvement with the CIA in the early 1960s.

it would be nice if obama released those papers demonstrating bush’s envolvement in that texas parade

Call it “metalegal” in the sense of status transcending the law. And I’m talking de facto and not junior high civics. I’m also speaking irony rather than advocacy.

The CIA murdered Jack Kennedy. According to Klein, the trigger-pullers on the grassy knoll did it for “the greater good of the nation.”

This morning on WJ Rep Meeks was talking about problems with the Castro regime in Cuba. One of the problems was the alleged torture of prisoners.
Moral authority anyone.

Absolutely CORRECT! obama rolled over so easily for the bush legacy that I have little hope that we will have any rest from the continued attempted civil coup by the righties. obama’s running scared of the righties and they seem to become more emboldened every day. fauxsnooze is in outright opposition and the best political analysis on tv showing the ridiculousness of the righties is done by Stewart and Colbert.

OT, Jane, but you asked for suggestions about what to do on FDL. I think that you and Christie should write a history, at least a post, of FDL. I think that this has become the best social and political blog site going, but people need to know how it got here. You and Christie set such high standards of writing and analysis that the others that you have added, as well as the readers, have benefitted greatly. I would suggest that you go back to include the blog before you and ReddHedd took over.
Thanks for having this blog.

ya that was great – stewart’s whole monologue on torture last night was right on target!

http://www.thedailyshow.com/

I think Klein is talking about CIA operations, not the info collection section.

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

The issue of investigating and prosecuting torture, policy and actions, is being driven by building public pressure, pressure from foreign allies especially EEOC and NATO, and most importantly, from inside the Department of Justice. This last is most important because ever since Richard Nixon, people have come to understand that decisions on federal prosecutions are ultimately determined in the White House and not in an independent Justice Department…this is exactly why we have had the problem with lawlessness and treasonous corruption in cases from the pardoning of Nixon to Iran Contra to Plamegate. The pressure of the progressive bloggosphere and the threat of prosecution in Spain and the reluctance of EEOC trading partners to fall in behind the US in anti- recession actions have, in my view, provided the space for the Attorny General and the Justice Department to move forward with investigation(s) and even appointment of special prosecutor(s). What has been missing from all the heavy air bein’ blown up Obama’s ass on this issue, is any pressure on Congress and the Democratic leadership to take up the issue and proceed with Congressional investigations and co-operative fact gathering to re-assert Congressional prerogotives in matters like this.

Please look at what Obama has said in his capacity and responsibility as President, he has said that he wants to look forward and not backward and wants to assure everyone that the laws of the United States will be followed and the country will not torture. This is what his responsibilities are as Chief Executive…his Justice Department is supposed to make decisions on investigation and prosecution in matters like this. In addition, to make the decisions to investigate and prosecute torure and related crimes political, driven by the executuve is to continue the problem that has gotten us here over the last 35 years. Obama has done the right thing here and he has said all the right things, politically and constitutionally, the responsibility for investigating and prosecuting falls ultimately on the Department of Justice, independent of the White House.

I would also like to caution progressives to be careful who they lie down with on issues like this…Bruce Fine has a POLITICAL agenda and is NOT driving his arguments for prosecution on legal and Constitutional grounds but is, instead, tryin ta put political heat on the executive to peel away left libertarian support for the President while ignoring the Congress and the Department of Justice. If Fine were really concerned about restoring the Constitution and mending wrongs done to the fabric of our democracy, he would be educating the public as to where the responsibility lies and who must drive us forward.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND DON’T SHOOT THE FRIENDLIES FOR GOD’S SAKE!!

I can’t say, however, that our spies must always obey all of our laws.

Which laws do they not have to obey, IYO, and who gets to decide?

When I was in the army, circa 1952, and stationed in Germany, a friend and I took a three day pass to Munich. One of our days we visited Dachau, the former concentration camp about twenty miles away. We debarked our train in the center of town with no idea of how to reach our destination. We asked a local “Where is the concentration camp?” He was puzzled and then said “Ach, the crematorium” and sent us precisely on our way.

The camp had been prettied up with flowers and chain fences along the paths. There was a souvenir illustrated book in three languages with pictures of piles of bodies. The supposed shower room where they gassed inmates had an odor but that may have been my imagination. I felt superior to that German who lived with so evil a neighbor. I thought of asking him what did you do when they were burning bodies? My moral superiority vanished with the Vietnam war. Carpet bombing and napalm may not be as personal as crematoriums but the end result is the same, lots of innocent dead people.

I didn’t do much to oppose the Vietnam war, a candlelight vigil on the town green. I paid my taxes and minded my business. Same is true for Iraq, an equally foolish undertaking, fraudulent in its inception. With the internet we now have a way to vent our frustrations, but nothing changes.

I am not sure what I would do were I a CIA agent with orders to torture. I might have a wife, kids, a mortgage which mean more to me than morality or the dark skinned fellow I don’t know. Like many things, it’s not torture when it’s done to the other guy. It’s only torture when you do it to me.

The outraged commenters are right. Laws should be followed and we should not torture, but we don’t live in a perfect world and we are not inclined to translate outrage into political activity. We hope we will elect someone to pull our chestnuts out of the fire. I don’t think it will happen. In the end it will be up to us. I am not sure we can pull it off.

The Decider used to decide.

this is going to hurt the morale and perhaps the efficacy of the clandestine service

Pres. Obama visited the CIA yesterday and was greeting with a wildly cheering crowd. CNN carried it live. I was pleasantly surprised by the enthusiasm they showed for someone the media keeps claiming is making their jobs tougher.

Morale? poor Joe wants to pearl clutch over the morale of hooded men and women who kidnaped, drugged, and flew “suspects” all over the world to be tortured? And the morale of everyone from the pilots and doctors to the paper pushers who helped make it possible?

I guess the MSM is already giving up on I was just following orders.

What about the morale of nations who know their government tortures? What about the morale of law abiding citizens?

I’m think somewhere back then someone figured that if you dehumanize the torturer, let him take the gloves off and do his thing, there’s a little problem. If the guy tortures for a year and we win the big battle the problem is now these lawless animals are coming ,with unknown others, to sit in our churches ,teach in our schools and date our daughters, who if no one else, will face harsh interrogation methods cause he KNOWS she been a cheating and he knows just how to get her to confess. Bath time honey.
This is where the wind/ whorl wind thing comes in.

How did Fox cover it and spin it negatively?

As I recall, the Watergate burglars were acting in extra-legal capacity as well.

So is Joke Line saying Watergate should never have been pursued?

If you dehumanize the torturer, do they become Cheney?

Shorter Klein: the ends justifies the means the end justifies the means the end justifies the means the end…

Don’t know, didn’t watch them yesterday.

Late to the post, so I admittedly haven’t had a chance to read everything, but if we want to discuss morale at the CIA, I wonder how their morale was after the previous administration trashed them every time they opened their mouths and then outed one of their agents.

Spencer has a new post up and ready for our perusal: “Identified: An OLC Interrogation Memo From 2007”

The CIA came from the OSS after WWII. One of the best examples of how thin this agency was in the 60’s is the testimony of Mel Brooks, Buck Henry and others from the TV show, “Get Smart” The people on the set commented about the strange fellows that no one knew, no one knew how they got access to the set during the shooting of the show. The evidence uncovered shows they were trying to see the the weapons created for the comedy series about a super secret organization, were viable for the CIA. Yes, our enlightened agents were so desperate that they tried to capture weapons from the minds of comedy writers. Brilliant comedy writers, but still.
I wonder if J Edgar ever used people on the set of the Three Stooges to gain insight into the potential value of the eye poke in interrogation situations?

and we should listen to this guy why ???

“Extremist” Greenwald reminds us

“Total rubbish, of course. The Camp X-Ray Yankophobe fiesta has died down in the past week as it has become clear that the prisoners — I see no need to use euphemisms here — are not being treated badly at all. The Red Cross has been in. Doctors are caring for them. They receive three square meals a day. They pray (and we provide arrows to point them the way). There’s no air conditioning, but the winter heat in Cuba isn’t exactly devastating. The cells are eight feet square; not the Ritz, but not quite inhumane, either. They were shackled and goggled when they were being transported, but no longer. They wear orange jump suits, which are probably an improvement over their Afghan cave-wear (I would actually prefer they be dressed in pink tutus, to give them an appreciation of the freedoms accorded western ballerinas). They are not being tortured, Terry. They are being interrogated.

c’mon, we all knew his flashes of reason and clarity were mere dalliances

Joe Klein said somethig stupid . . . again? Well, I am surprised. You know sometimes we say things without really thinking them through. Even here in a thread we may type a comment in response to someone without full reflection. But Klein has the time to think things through. More, it is what his job is supposed to be: to go that extra mile, to make that connection that a casual reader might miss.

This is what is so irritating about inanities like this one spewed by the punditocracy. This guy is paid (well) to take a thoughtful second look and instead produces simple-minded dreck with holes in the logic big enough to sail an ocean liner through.

As Jane points out, what does extra-legal mean? Are we talking jaywalking or mass murder? Who decides what is the greater good? Wouldn’t the rule of law be a greater good? Is it really true we can only be secure if we allow some to break our laws? And if true, how can we ever be secure from those who so break the law even if it is in our name? Who watches the watchman?

I would recommend two books to Mr. Klein. Melvin Goodman’s “Failure of Intelligence” and Tim Weiner’s “Legacy of Ashes”. The clandestine part of the CIA is and has been since the beginning not just a bust, but a bunch of James Bond martini drinking wannabees. They were involved in assassinations, coups, and plain nastiness that pretty much always led to blowback. President after president fell under the spell of having HIS own private secret army. On the other hand, the analytic side of the CIA had many successes, but was then politicized in the 1990s (Calling Mr. Gates) and started giving the president just what he wanted to hear.

Morale? poor Joe wants to pearl clutch over the morale of hooded men and women who kidnaped, drugged, and flew “suspects” all over the world to be tortured?

This gets to the incongruity of the argument. OTOH these are supposed to be big tough spies. On the other, any criticism hurts their very sensitive feelings. Which is it?

President. Is that legal? Nope.

I can buy into the notion that “it’s a dangerous world and sometimes we have to do things that aren’t pretty..” blah, blah, blah. I think most people can. Alot of people, I imagine, think that position is a slippery slope. I understand that. We have to elect the right people. We hear the “it’s a dangerous world…” argument far too often and it loses , well, efficacy. I think it’s legitimate – obvious, even – but it’s been abused.

O.M.G.

phillip zelikow weighs in on teh torture memos in a nyt article (p2).

all i can muster is a pathetic chuckle….. can anyone spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e

“In an April lecture, Philip D. Zelikow, the former adviser to Ms. Rice, said it was a grave mistake to delegate to attorneys decisions on the moral question of how prisoners should be treated.

Mr. Zelikow, who reviewed the C.I.A. detention program as the executive director of the Sept. 11 commission, said the “cool, carefully considered, methodical, prolonged and repeated subjection of captives to physical torment, and the accompanying psychological terror, is immoral.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05…..ogate.html

I’d like to know why they were cheering. Perhaps, because he is giving them a pass on torture and murder. Of course, it’s also possible that they think he is restoring the rule of law, but that would be just plain wrong. Obama is instituting the rule of Obama just as W. established the rule of W.

As long as that torture to get al-Libi to place al-Qaeda training camps in Iraq was for the greater good

As long as the torture to get Arar to confess to attending training camps he could not have attended was for the greater good – his little girls will understand that the torture conspirators were actually the good guys I know.

As long as razoring genitals of people who visited a spoof webiste on making nuclear weapons by swining a bucket over your head was for the greater good.

As long as the disappearance of KSM’s children was for the greater good.

Joe’s defense of illegal forms of violence is so robust, he could join Avigdor Lieberman’s foreign ministry team. As Jane says, lowering the morale of those committing serial illegal acts is the whole point. They should stop torturing.

Others have said if they don’t like it, the obvious answer is for them to quit and we get a whole new team. Given the mold Cheney stuffed those bureaucrats who mattered to him in, and who stayed during his regime, that’s probably a good idea. We’re not parsing a slapping and manhandling, or the mayhem done by a US spy overseas evading detection and capture. We’re talking about stopping the rot of brutal, systemic, routine torture as the default method of prisoner-keeping and interrogation. What’s to argue, Joe?

The doom and gloom over-reaction is a routine straw man argument, Joe, worthy of Karl Rove. Find a more credible one. If you think torture is A-OK as official US Government policy, that it will help keep us safe and win friends and influence people overseas, raise your hand, Joe, and read the responses in your column.

“Extra-legal” is not just another way of saying illegal, it’s really a dishonest attempt to say that something is not really illegal.

Some CIA employees (and perhaps military personnel at Guantanamo) are guilty of torture and murder* and some members of the W. administration are guilty of those crimes because these people were following their illegal policies/orders. Obama’s desire to give all of these people a pass is illegal, immoral, and a violation of his Constitutional oath.

Prosecuting those involved might hurt morale? I have seldom heard such a morally and legally bankrupt argument. Where is the law written that before someone is prosecuted for violating a law the prosecutor must consider if his/her actions will harm the morale of the accused or those they live with? Jesus Christ, that’s such dishonest bullshit!

Might hurt their efficacy in continuing to torture and murder?* Oh, please!

No amount of bullshit will cover the fact that if the Obama administration does not prosecute anyone for torture or murder in these cases, then Obama has condoned these acts and we will only see more of them in the future. Torture and murder are not just random indiscretions that can be allowed to go unprosecuted and still maintain any credibility for the rule of law.

*If someone dies as a result of you acting feloniously you are guilty of murder. People did die as a result of torture by US personnel, ergo, some of these people are guilty of murder.

Does extra-legal mean really really, super duper legal?

The CIA is too big too fail! Too big have laws enforced upon it!

The “Masters of the Universe” are always too big to be treated like the faceless nobodies in the rest of the country.

Beltway journalists are a trip.

So does Klein support extra-legal action by Israeli agents in the US, as long as they are for the greater good?

Klein’s argument, like most on the right, boils down to a jingoistic belief in “American exceptionalism.” If we do it, it must be okay. You could, you know, torture Klein just a teensy bit, & he would say torture of our enemies or suspected enemies was wrong, but he’d never actually believe it. I have come to believe that those like Klein, whose job it is to expose torture but who choose instead to excuse it, suffer from some sociopathology for which there is no known cure. I wish I were kidding.

The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.com

I would argue that NOT punishing criminal elements hurts morale–at least it hurts the kind of morale we want.

No no no, it’s “extra-legal” because it has “extra.” It’s like, “Legal Plus: NOW WITH MORE LEGAL.”

can anyone say Joe Klein has cognitive dissonance?

Here’s the finer point underlining Klein’s view: given that spies break some laws here and there, breaking any and all laws is therefore a regular part of their jobs.

It’s one thing to be using false identities or wiretaps in pursuit of espionage. It’s quite another to kidnap an innocent man off the street, fly him halfway around the world, torture him for months or years, and maybe let him go free after a decade or so, if he’s lucky. And if he’s not lucky? Ask Hassan Ghul.

Klein has basically pre-emptively decided that it’s not just okay for the CIA to break laws, but that we might make them mad if we tell them to stop. It’s a world view that Dick Cheney surely shares.