Hi, folks. (and zed)

The Constitution’s for everyone! Readers who’ve yet to comment are most welcome to join us.

hello, doctor!
This is very, very simple. In order to make this President do his job, and he has told us as much, we (WE) have to make it politically impossible for him NOT to do his job.
That may not be the right standard, but it is in fact the operative standard.
Yes, I am grossly disappointed, too.

james, one of the finest pieces I have read at the lake, it has obviously disturbed me more then the majority

I walk as a zombie lately, obama must find his way, he is lost with no compass

hi newton: totally agree with your prescription.

hi perris: glad you like the piece, but be careful of the zombie diet. hard to find prion-free brains…..

Oh, and Dugg right here.

Thanks for the Digg, newtonusr! Folks, shameless digg beg here. [Hey, it’s spring - what better time to get out the trowel…]

Where is MoveOn or any other organization ready to raise money and put up ads with some kind of good visual content and words that will be a call to action on this?

I think it will take something like this to get the ball rolling. I have signed petitions and all that, Conyers is ready to go with something, what else do we need?

We could use a few good CIA people who refused to participate to step forward. Maybe there are doctors and others who also refused. We also need names of the “disappeared.” WTF happened to these people who were known to be in the hands of the US? At least one name has come out. There are at least 100 people who were killed in the process. Who are they?

Dr Murphy,
Fine piece about a difficult, horrible subject.
Most would prefer to not hear or know about all this.
But we do know.
Should there be investigation and prosecution?
Of course.
But what would be the political consequences if Obama pursues the course of law?
Flaming political meltdown, I’m afraid. (I still think it needs to be done.)
But Obama will be destroyed.
Given a choice, would you prefer him to pursue the torturers or pursue national health care?

Nuremberg in America:The Rallies or the Principles?

Excellent framing, Kirk. Very well put.

We need to make Obama understand he hasn’t any choice. At what point to he and Holder become war criminals themselves by choosing not to prosecute?

I would posit that he would be destroyed only if, and these are big ‘ifs,’ Congressional Democrats do not step up, and if he tries to have 50% instead of the whole shebang.

He can brute his way through it, but he will need to put a bunch of things on hold, and he will need considerable backing.

Wonderful, Kirk, really nice.

I don’t hold out much hope Obama will do the right thing but I’m kind of hoping his explicit statement was just a sop to the CIA so they won’t kill him straight off if he decides to start a serious investigation. We have to remember the type of people we’re dealing with here. I don’t use the term frequently but I truly believe many of the people who were involved in this are real sociopaths who would have no qualms about killing a president.

When you get into reading the history of the Nuremberg Trials though and you find out just how many war criminals we actively helped to escape justice ( and it was the CIA’s predecssor, the OSS and people like Dulles, Kissinger, and Helms who were doing the helping) you can see why there isn’t a cheering section within the company for accountability.

Hell, our space program would have been a non-entity had it not been for Herr Werner von Braun, a Nazi colonel who was brought to America with his entire group of Nazis to work for the Americans.

Our hands have never been clean nor, I fear, have our intentions ever been noble.

You’re not the only medical professional calling for prosecutions. The head of the Center for the Victims of Torture did so as well — back in Jan 2005, during the hearings that confirmed Alberto Gonzales to be the Attorney General. Said the CVT:

In global human rights campaigns against torture, one key focal point is the minister of justice or attorney general, who has three important roles: (1) to establish policies and procedures that diminish the incentive to use torture, such as regulating the role that confessions play in the overall administration of justice; (2) to prosecute or sanction torturers or persons who ill-treat detainees, and (3) to eliminate both the reality and the appearance of impunity among interrogators.

Emphasis added.

Unfortunately, I have 0% confidence in Congressional Dems to do the right thing.
Wouldn’t be politically prudent.
If they had any teabags, Bush would have been impeached.

powerful post dr murphy. i choose principles

standing on chair clapping

foxman, I’m glad you enjoyed the piece. Though I’m not certain how much capacity we the public have to quell poltical meltdown, even before these revelations the majority seems to oppose amnesty, and support investigation.

If Glenzilla’s right (and when isn’t he? *g*), Obama seems to have political space both to appoint an Independent Prosecutor for torture and war crimes (uh…Fitz?) and to pursue national health care.

By a wide margin — 58-40% — Americans say that torture should never be used, no matter the circumstances. Let’s repeat that: “no matter the circumstance.” That margin is enormous among Democrats (71-28%) and substantial among independents (56-43%). As usual these days, Republicans hold the minority view, but even among them there is substantial categorical opposition to torture (42-55%).

Moreover, a majority of Americans (53-42%) favor the closing of Guantanamo, with large support among Democrats (68%) and independents (55%). Even more significantly, a very solid majority of those favoring the closing of Guantanamo recognize exactly what ought to be done with detainees who the government believes are guilty of terrorism-related crimes — it’s exactly what the ACLU and civil libertarians generally urge be done:

One reason for Obama’s order on judicial proceedings is to figure out just how to handle those suspects, and among those in the new poll who want Gitmo closed, more than six in 10 said they should be put on trial in the regular U.S. court system. A third said they’d like them to face justice in their home countries.

Even more surprisingly for spouters of conventional wisdom, a majority of Americans (50-47%) believe that the Obama administration should investigate whether the Bush administration’s treatment of detainees was illegal. When asked: “Do you think the Obama administration should or should not investigate whether any laws were broken in the way terrorism suspects were treated under the Bush administration?,” Democrats overwhelmingly favor such investigations (69%), while Republicans oppose them by the same margin, and independents are slightly against.

Relatedly, Americans would have opposed (52-42%) the issuance of pardons by Bush to those “who carried out his administration’s policy on the treatment of terrorism suspects.”

Right. Plus, a bunch of Critters have a lot to lose if it were ever disclosed how much they knew before and while it was going on.

It is not impossible, but it is highly improbable. And he should do it anyway.

Oh gracious yes. So many med professionals called for that. If I’ve implied in any way I’ve been alone in that call, I wrote really poorly.

*g*

thanks, teddy

political space with the citizenry. apparently not with the elite (or those who want a “seat at the table”).

No, you’ve been pretty clear about it.

*g*

Just giving you (and others) a reminder that you’re not alone.

i keep coming back to this bit:

Medical and psychological professionals from the CIA’s Office of Medical Services (”OMS”) carefully evaluate detainees before any enhanced technique is authorized in order to ensure that the detainee “is not likely to suffer any severe physical or mental pain or suffering as a result of interrogation.” Techniques at 4; see OMS Guidelines on Medical and Psychological Support to Detainee Rendition, Interrogation and Detention at 9 (Dec. 2004) (”OMS Guidelines“)

sure reads to me like health care professionals were required to signed off on the torture.

Kirk,
I completely agree that most Americans know the difference between right and wrong.
If we were the deciders, it’s a clear case.
But as newtonusr points out @17, too many politicians on both sides of the aisle are liable .

Nuremburg trials didn’t happen because German politicians supported them, they were imposed from the outside.

Well at least we know it was the “good guys” doing this. So that must make it OK don’cha think?

Boy o boy–if China,Iran,Germany or Japan had been doing this with so many in positions of authority involved right to the top WashingtonDC would have been going after any or all remedies and legal jeopardies to impose.

So Americans now have gone done it and WashingtonDC is acting like this is going to just go away if it stonewalls and muddies things up.

Bush is in Texas living in his new $2 million plus house. Cheney is still lurking around WashingtonDC. One of the principles is now a judge and another got the Medal of Freedom just to start a list of where some known culprits are now.

President Obama better wake up and fly right damn quick or he may be coming up for some nasty legal fallout himself.

Is it ignorance? Arrogance? Fear of doing what is right is greater than doing what is wrong?

Too many people just getting very confused?

Or deciding abiding within the law is for the suckers and losers?

Doing torture,war crimes and now trying to evade the plain consequences of having done so calls for very firm and very clear coming down of the rule of law.

Anything less is simple failure and opens upon only worst behavior to come.

Yep. Tom Lehrer notwithstanding, America’s collective amnesia about the Nazis the OSS (and other US entities) snatched up and hid continues to amaze me.

According to Martin A Lee in The Beast Reawakens, our “adopted” Nazis corrupted US policies and practices for decades.

Lee also wrote about how the OSS’s embrace of the Nazi “Gehlen Organization” directly led to Latin America’s death squads.

Unexpected Consequences
Members of the Gehlen Org were instrumental in helping thousands of fascist fugitives escape via “ratlines” to safe havens abroad – often with a wink and a nod from U.S. intelligence officers.
Third Reich expatriates and fascist collaborators subsequently emerged as “security advisers” in several Middle Eastern and Latin American countries, where ultra-right-wing death squads persist as their enduring legacy.
Klaus Barbie, for example, assisted a succession of military regimes in Bolivia, where he taught soldiers torture techniques and helped protect the flourishing cocaine trade in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Death squads. Like the ones Chiquita hired. Somehow I’m not expecting prosecuting America’s little Eichmanns is first on Eric Holder’s priority list.

thanks, suz!

(but be careful on that chair…)

Kirk,
The AMA should immediately start the ball rolling by having all those medical professionals lose their licenses FOREVER. The hearings would expose the actions and perhaps get them to cooperate with all the facts of the torture committed in OUR NAME. As a nurse, I am appalled that medical professionals would participate in the activities described in the memos.

“Torture has become bureaucratized.”

As it was in Hitler’s Germany, Soviet Russia, China, and many medieval states.

We have become that which we feared.

I do not think this is an either or choice. Obama or Holder should appoint a special prosecutor. NOW. Give him/her an unlimited budget. Go after everyone. Prosecute. No amnesty, no deals, nothing. This should be a person of impeccable credentials – outside either party – totally non-partisan. Preferably a former prosecutor who is now a sitting judge somewhere (other than the 9th circuit).

And then let the chips fall where they may. Doing it this way will allow Obama and Congress to continue on the agenda. The prosecutor would be another separate issue.

Yep. More depravity.

I think maybe Obama had those documents released at a time when they would receive maximum scrutiny. Notice how it didn’t happen on Friday dump day. Maybe he wanted the information out in a big way so people would DEMAND a special prosecutor and he would come out looking like the guy who didn’t want to go after the old administration.

I never underestimate the man.

if that’s the case, then there will be a signature somewhere.

Former Raygun appointee to deputy AG Bruce Fein. Not a judge to my knowledge, but how loudly could the Goopers scream?

the docs were released as required by court order. obama didn’t have the option of waiting a day to release them.

Agree with the goal, and with involving the AMA.

The structure of licensing is that professional licenses (medicine, for MD’s; psychology, for PhD’s) are controlled on a state-by-state basis.

Federal regulation (attached, say to one of those spending instruments that only requrire 50 Senate votes) striking funds from any state that licensed torture docs is one solution.

More realistically, one state at a time regulation (legislature/Governor ordering state Medical Board to investigate andde-license where indicated) will come first.

I still don’t understand the ‘legality’ or the reasoning behind not holding those who actually committed the torture accountable because they supposedly thought it was ‘legal’. (Which I don’t believe for a minute – otherwise why where they asking for legal opinions???)

After all, Lynndie Englund and her fellow inmates all thought they had ‘approval’ from their higher-ups. Once again, a complete and total double standard. We got film of Lynndie. The CIA boys? Not so much.

Ugh.

What does Pat Leahy mean by saying there will only be investigations if there is GOP support for it? That’s the strangest reason I ever heard for not conducting war crimes investigations — because the war criminals’ political allies won’t go along.

i don’t see how we have any leverage with the Ds so long as there is nothing we would our withdraw support over.

not making an argument where the line should be, just that there should be a line.

or maybe someone has another idea?

He has been so openly critical of the Bush Administration lately that it would be hard to argue that he is ‘non-partisan’. The criticism was perfectly justified, but he has been all over the MSM saying it so I don’t think it would work. He’d be good though.

teddy @37 – i understand leahy doesn’t use the restroom unless an R goes with him either.

We have become that which we feared.

Exactly. A tragic, lethal symmetry. The world according to LeCarre.

We’re even mirroring the “empire” we defeated: falling into insolvency.

I didn’t notice the R’s waiting for Dem support when they impeached Clinton. Oh wait, they had Dem support. Sorry.

Pretty good – we get both R’s and D’s to impeach someone over a tawdry sex scandal.

But this?

Nah. It would be a ‘partisan witch hunt’. Or retribution and we don’t do retribution.

We can’t investigate until everyone on both sides agrees to do it.

IT’S WAR CRIMES!

(not yelling at you – just yelling) *g*

Kirk,
How will we know the names of the medical professionals involved so that the state medical boards can take action?

Yes. Appointing a special prosecutor as our international treaty obligations compel (via Article Six) his Administration to do is the only way Obama can avoid becoming a rogue President.

i believe the only way to identify the names of those medical ‘professionals’ who participated is if there is an investigation.

i conclude, perhaps wrongly, that even leahy just doesn’t care all that much.

I really worked at supporting Obama. Finally there was a slim hope and a chance not only for change but justice against the scumbuckets that kidnapped, imprisoned, tortured and murdered people not only in our so called ‘war’ zones but here at home as well. That they also were rewarded for stealing and squandering a few $trillion while spying on us for 8 years starting long before 9/11/01 is beyond comprehension. Obviously we were duped again, this time by Obama the Bull-shitter who now wants to just forgive and forget these horrible crimes and his lame assed ‘it won’t happen again’ crap. Pelosi and Reid are just as bad. **** with the criminals would be preferable to doing nothing. Memo to Hussein Obama, you did not run on a platform of giving those criminals a free pass and we did not elect you for that either!

MOD NOTE: edited to remove suggestion of violence

i agree. we need an independent investigation (just like on the banking scandals). there is so much corruption and moral depravity… ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.

i don’t want a lynch mob. and i don’t want a cover up.

investigations. real ones.

and then… fair trials!

I really don’t get it. The public is behind them on this issue. Have been for a while. Polls were 52% in favor of impeaching Cheney in 2006 already. But we get nothing from these jerks who are supposedly representing us? (Dennis Kucinich excepted).

I wish I could figure out what is in the water they serve on Capitol Hill that turns all these idiots into slimey mush when they get there.

Obama or Holder should appoint a special prosecutor

I agree completely. Let legal professionals do their jobs.
(Darkly, but don’t forget that Yoo and Addington were lawyers asked to do a job…)

Doing it this way will allow Obama and Congress to continue on the agenda.

Sorry, I think the political blowback will cripple any progressive movement in Obama’s agenda.
I don’t like it, but given a choice (which Dr M didn’t respond to) I’d have to go with rule of law.
We’ll just have to forget about health care reform for another generation.

Great question. Right now, that data’s not available that i know of.

The first step for State medical boards will be asking physicians if they had military service from date x (first rendition flights under Clinton?) to present. Then asking them if they ever participated in (specifically listed) acts (torture, etc) proscribed under international law or medical ethics. “If so, doctor, describe:______”

All state medical boards now pull licenses of docs who lie on thier apps: these questions will make the torture docs unemployable if they lie and are caught.

Previous experience suggests docs, nurses, psychologists and the like who participate in human rights crimes end up outed. The fastest way I know is via act of Congress…or Independent Counsel For War Crimes.

I wonder if countries other than brave Spain will speak up now, perhaps privately asking Eric Holder, “A word, if you please” and urge him to disobey his President while following the rule of law.

Not just international law, but American law as well. He is compelled.

***gentle reminder***

suggestions of violence will result in comments being moderated. let us not become that which we protest against

i have the same questions about single payer health care reform. even though almost no one is talking about it – even major blogs, it’s has v good support. why are so few people talking about it (not counting the hcan employee who comes here to instruct the single payer supporters we’re supposed to fall in line behind the insurance centered “obama plan” that doesn’t even exist)?

i guess it’s not about public support and one person one vote. it’s about one dollar one vote.

what a broken system we have when the things people care about are not reflected by the actions of our political leaders.

While I can certainly understand the dilemma of a subordinate, caught in the web of orders and expectations, who then carries out torture.

But long term, we will never be rid of torture until there are serious consequences, both to superiors and subordinates.

So that, upon receiving an order to torture a prisoner, the reaction of a subordinate is to ****.

For that, amnesty is entirely appropriate.

MOD NOTE: *** edited to remove suggestions of violence

can the american bar association take action against holder if he does not do what the law requires he do?

perhaps a better way to ask that is would the american bar assocation take action?

GRRRRR.
There are international standards agreed upon many years ago that deal with this barbaric activity.

DOH!

The Geneva Convention!

I guess we can just ignore that according to BushCo.

Yep. What Suz said.

it’s about one dollar one vote.

Ouch, so true it hurts.

LOOK at this in context…

How many hot issues can one administration handle at a time? We’re all about to find out. Here’s what we got so far:
- Pakistan
- North Korea
- Afghanistan
- Iraq
- Iran
- Palestine
- Mexico drug violence
- Somalia piracy
- the imploding economy

To that list of hot issues, you want to add prosecuting war crimes that he at least put an end to? Notice that the people involved in the war crimes can either help or hurt Obama’s ability to work on the tasks listed above.

Frankly, I think this situation is ”unmanageable”. Triage is necessary. We have to pick our battles. Unfortunately, the Bush administration created more problems than anyone can clean up. (It’s not completely dissimilar from what AIG did. If you ”fail spectacularly”, sometimes the only practical thing to do is ”move forward”. You know, folks…Remember ”move on dot org”?)

Sorry. You all have my sympathies. To a large extent, I agree with you. But, hell, if I were President, I’d make this same decision. I’d hate myself for doing it. But, I would do it.

Obama will prosecute for torture at the same pace that Lincoln agreed to sign the Emancipation Proclamation—only as a very last resort. I don’t think we’ll ever see justice on this one. Americans really don’t care.

I left out the politicization of the Justice Department and god-only-knows what else.

Again, there’s just too much to handle.

speak for yourself

I did.

>> Remember ”move on dot org”?

Sorry for being glib. That’s an awful analogy. But, I do think this is one of those issues where we have to ”move on”.

We’re very lucky this didn’t get worse than it was. Otherwise, we’d be facing the kind of issues that plague some Latin American countries, where it takes decades for the country to heal.

Should have said “rwcole really doesn’t care” then, huh?

you know, if obama wasn’t working so hard to rip us off of trillions to give the banksters, if he wasn’t talking about insurance centered health care reform, if he wasn’t escalating the wars in afghanistan/pakistan, … etc, i might have some sympathy for that argument. as it is – no fracking way.

No

I should have said exactly what I said. Was it unclear?

rw, i am an american and i care. perhaps a modifier such as ‘most americans’ or ’some americans’.

Anyone second-guessing themselves for voting for Obama should look at the positives so far that would not have happened under McCain:
- For now, world leaders respect us again. At minimum, that increases the odds of cooperation and multilateralism.
- Removing political censorship on government science.
- Funding stem cells.
- Easing Cuba embargo slightly.
- Eliminating global gag rule.
And other stuff I can’t recall.

He’s also getting the ball rolling on green energy, high speed rail.

Amidst a once-in-100-years economic ”Minsky moment”, he’s done a lot so far for someone in office 3 months.

Cheers!

Yes that would have been better..still…the point is that prosecuting say- Bush- would be political suicide in this climate.

When you categorize me, an American as part of a group that “really doesn’t care”, I take exception. That’s all.

So, yes, you were unclear.

Please elaborate

thanks kirk. another great post.

Sucks, indeed.

one goes where an investigation takes ya when investigating. if ya start an investigation with the intention of getting bush, then it is a political thang and not an impartial investigation.

i want an impartial investigation that goes where the truth takes it.

Think about what would happen if 80-90% of banks failed, because I believe that many were/are insolvent. What would happen to companies’ bank deposits? ”Poof”. What would happen to next Friday’s payroll? ”Poof”. Now, Extrapolate. Extrapolate. Extrapolate.

That’s what the alternative was/is, in my view. I.e., ”welcome to Hooverville”.

It’s ”nice” that people are paying attention now…”sorta”.

thers is upstairs

My post #77 was supposed to be in reply to #68. But, the ”in response to …” text doesn’t appear.

(To self: duh! Always, always, always quote some portion of the other person’s text.)

Gotz to go back to studying…later, good folks.

ya have to wait for the page to completely load for the reply to to work. (i learned this the hard way)

As Penny Lernoux extensively documented in Cry of the People, the vast majority of the death squads in Latin America over the past sixty years acted on behalf of the US and our client rules. After Kermit Roosevelt’s splendid little coup in Iran (we all know how well tha turned out), our spooks and their death squads made Guatemala (1954 – Arbenz), Brasil (1964), Chile (1973) and El Salvador our own little shops of horrors.

A great many of the Latin American dictators and military enforcers trained at our School of the Assassins – er – Americas, where the curriculum once included the fine art of incinerating passenger buses. They went home: their instructors stayed here: in our military. CIA operatives flew to black sites, conducted torture, and flew home. Now they’re here. Our troops and spooks and prison guards and torturers and docs and nurses and psychologists all conspired in torture. Now they’re here, and they’re telling the rest of us not to investigate.

We’re already facing the issue many Latin American nations faced: what do we do to prevent the torturers among us from harming anyone else, or giving any more “orders”?

Starting the Special Prosecutor investigation gives a hope of resolution. Official inaction emboldens the torturers and the corporatists who brought them forth.

At some point, progressives will understand that Obama and the Congress are controlled by the coporations who spent the money to buy them. How much money did Obama raise? From whom? Obama, as a Centrist Democrat, will do what his coporate masters tell him. He is, perhaps, as bad as George W. His refusal to investigate and prosecute the criminals from the last administration makes him guilty of not fulfilling his oath of office. Time for America to wake up. Unfortunately, we have Stephen, W, jr., to deal with, but Obama may be worse. Oh, Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

I call bullshit.
Watergate happened while a few things were going on in which the US was involved or interfering in, such as
Wars in
Viet Nam
Middle East
Africa
N. Ireland
Cold War
Shit happening in S.America, Afghanistan
Oil embargo/ Energy crisis
Too busy my foot.

The defense of relying on a lawyers advice/opinion might fly in civil court, however, not so much in criminal court — if my lawyer tells me it is OK for me to shoot my neighbor (for whatever reason) I’ll be up the creek and probably up the river. Simply, a war crime is a war crime — there are no excuses or defenses.

And might be a good idea for President Obama to read up on his crim law: Obstruction, conspiracy to obstruct, and accessory after the fact.

And, yes, I’m a long term Democrat.

>> Watergate happened while a few things

That’s a good observation. But, I do see some distinctions.

- Watergate was simple: ”Breaking and entering”. Just like Clinton ”lying under oath”. (Notice how that, too, was handled quickly.) But, the torture case isn’t as simple. (Well, maybe to you. But, not to most Americans.)

- Watergate was a case of one party cheating against a rival political party. You could look at this as ”cheating purely for self-interest”. In ”contrast”, the Bush torture actions involves ”best-of-intentions” / ”good faith” attempts by the ex-President to prevent additional attacks. It’s ”cheating for the benefit of others”. Many average voters think he did the right thing. (Besides Nixon’s inner circle of thugs, did anyone else think Nixon did the right thing?)

- How many people were actually involved in Watergate? And how many of them were indispensable to the other tasks?

- What if Nixon already left the WH before the investigation got anywhere? Would people have gone after him further?

- The economic crisis now is a 1-in-100+ years event. Thanks to globalization and the internet, every job that isn’t ”nailed to the floor” is going overseas. This time it’s different.

- Correct me if I’m wrong but..did Nixon face any legal penalties for his actions?? Ford pardoned him. Where was the justice then? Injustice then, injustice now.

Henry Kissinger is still walking around free. I think what he did is far worse.

Anyway, one day, I hope this country is educated enough to take your side.

Thanks so much for this diary!
Now to read the comments.

Bob in HI

i believe the only way to identify the names of those medical ‘professionals’ who participated is if there is an investigation.

what suz said…

bob, thankks for your interest and all the comments and info you share: you learn me.

Thanks for digging out this old Glenzilla column. It deserves wider circulation.

Bob in HI

In any investigation, these “Medical and psychological professionals” will be important witnesses.

Bob in HI

Kirk,
Thanks for these links. It makes me think about Naomi Wolf’s The End of America. It’s like battling a hydra– every time a head is chopped off, another head appears.

Very discouraging, except that the same Naomi Wolf also wrote an answer to her own book: Give Me Liberty: A Handbook for American Revolutionaries. I feel like giving copies to everyone!

Bob in HI

EXACTLY!!

Many have accused the US of practicing “victors’ justice” at Nuremberg, and this nation’s “Greatest Generation,” assured the world that wasn’t the case, that were the day to come, America would apply the same standards to its own war criminals. Well the day has come, and Obama is making liars out of them.

And what is Obama’s rationale for failing in his Constitutional duty to uphold the law (which involves more than merely obeying it)? His rationale is that these war criminals were assured that there was a secret OLC opinion somewhere that concluded that what they were asked to do was legal.

I have news for Professor Obama: what the defendants at Nuremberg was absolutely legal. There was no law against it. It didn’t even require a sophomoric bogus opinion from the likes of Yoo and Bybee. In Germany, Hitlers word was the law, and the Wikipedia notes that “Critics of the Nuremberg trials argued that the charges against the defendants were only defined as “crimes” after they were committed…”

In fact, in at least two ways, the CIA’s war criminals are guiltier than were the defendants at Nuremberg:

1) The CIA torturers broke Federal statues international laws, and Senate-ratified treaties, which by Article VI are “supreme law of the land.”

2) The defendants at Nuremberg faced serious punishment if the refused to follow orders, while the CIA operatives, at worst, would have been fired.

Is “going forward” a good defense? I would say most crimes are in the past. Wonder if this is a trend?

The current rhetoric that we would lose good people in the CIA if they had to take responsibility for their actions can be compared to the CEOs who drove their corporations under through greed and criminal conduct.

Both groups lack a moral compass…and should be in jail.

Great article Dr M. Very disgusting situation re the torture. We have a CIA which abuses the laws regularly with the knowledge AND cooperation or worse DIRECTION by the POTUS and has done so for decades.

And we have hundreds of people who think nothing about participating in these atrocities, from so called “interrogators”, docs, nurses, guards, pilots, paper pushers, legal minds, bureaucrats… all who participated, knowingly and effectively conspired to break these laws.

It is very serious that when faced with the facts that this has been going on, in the last 7 yrs… but also when you crack open that investigation we will find the that this has been going on for 5 decades, and is going on in the US prison system every day.

We may not be a nation of sadists, but we surely have found a place and means for them to run free. They, in fact, have their proverbial “boots” on our necks and have intimidated the “normal” people from stopping these psychopaths.

Why?

ps. Perhaps every defendant in courrt should use the “going forward defense”. If it good enough for the POTUS, the CIA, the US government, it’s good enough for me. Sorry, I won’t do it again. Case dismissed.

The biggest problem I have is these goons will be getting a paycheck next Friday. It would seem the CIA is populated with an unknown number of international war criminals. Who are they and are they still in allegiance with Bush and CHENEY ? Remember Ms. Goodling let slip she took an oath to the president.

There must be a stand down of the CIA until each and every war criminal who watched, acted or covered up torture is tried and convicted then President Obama can pardon them all.
As of right now President Obama is relying on advice from admitted war criminals.

Only traitors torture- let the treason trials begin .

Is “going forward” a good defense? I would say most crimes are in the past. Wonder if this is a trend?

Failure to address these crimes prevents us from going forward, as well it should.

In reply to #96:

The biggest problem I have is these goons will be getting a paycheck next Friday.

Exactly! Not only have these war criminals not been prosecuted, they’ve not been fired, demoted, or even reprimanded for their misdeeds. In fact, Tenet got a Freedom Medal for his participation in these crimes against humanity.

Hi, gang- While you’re burning gray matter, burn a little for the thousands that died at the hands of these ‘alleged” terorists– Burn in your minds the images of Pearl being beheaded– and the troops hung from the bridges, and too many other images too disturbing for many, yet you cry over this issue like it really means something. We ARE better than that, but if we dont adapt our tactics to beat these beasts, then they will beat us. One of the ways is in doing exactly what this article does; play on your good moral instincts. What’s more sickening is reading so many of you crying over this, while knowing you’re all being played by the extremists and the terrorists. Obama better grab his fiddle while he can- He’ll only have one term to learn how to play it, then he’ll be gone, just like Carter and his ilk- Have a wonderful day-

FINALLY– someone who understands what’s going on– I wonder what the flap would be if Bill Clinton was in charge whan this went on– ANY TAKERS?????

James Madison wrote:

“If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty…”

It would indeed be ironic if impeachment proceedings were brought against President Obama for the crimes committed by the Bush administration, simply because President Obama chose to “shelter” those lawbreakers from prosecution.

there is now no doubt what happened….agents of the US government committed repeated acts of torture, knowing it was trusting, but trusting they would never be held accountable for their acts. President Obama is in a difficult position: does he pursue prosecution of those persons who committed such acts and “sidetrack” the nation’s attention to this very real issue; or does he say “bad stuff, but let bygones be bygones” not an easy choice. However, he’s a bright guy with bright folks around him, hey surely they’re capable of multi-tasking. The Bushies need to be held legally accountable for their actions; a) from a purely “punitive” stance; they need to pay for the horrible acts and b) we need to announce to future governmental agents, to our citizens and to the world, that such acts do not represent the values of our nation and will not be tolerated. By the way, a really easy place to start is to “pull the papers” or all M.D.s who participated in torture in any way….including bneing present so it could be performed with their “failsafe” presence

Apologies for the repeat…but

As Penny Lernoux extensively documented in Cry of the People, the vast majority of the death squads in Latin America over the past sixty years acted on behalf of the US and our client rules. After Kermit Roosevelt’s splendid little coup in Iran (we all know how well tha turned out), our spooks and their death squads made Guatemala (1954 – Arbenz), Brasil (1964 – Goulart), Chile (1973) and El Salvador our own little shops of horrors.

A great many of the Latin American dictators and military enforcers trained at our School of the Assassins – er – Americas, where the curriculum once included the fine art of incinerating passenger buses. They went home: the torture teachers stayed here: in our military. CIA operatives flew to black sites, conducted torture, and flew home. Now they’re here. Our troops and spooks and prison guards and torturers and docs and nurses and psychologists all conspired in torture. Now they’re here, and they’re telling the rest of us not to investigate.

We’re already facing the issue many Latin American nations faced: what do we do to prevent the torturers among us from harming anyone else, or giving any more “orders”?

Starting the Special Prosecutor investigation gives a hope of resolution. Official inaction emboldens the torturers and the corporatists who brought them forth.