[Welcome author, Jeff Madrick, and host, Richard Parker, Lecturer in Public Policy and Senior Fellow of the Shorenstein Center, Harvard Kennedy School - bev]
Jeff Madrick’sThe Case for Big Government arrives when one might imagine that Wall Street has made the case quite persuasively on its own. By mid-February, the Federal Reserve’s once-gargantuan $29 billion rescue of Bear Stearns had been dwarfed not just by the government’s hotly debated $700 billion "bailout bill" last fall, or even President Obama’s nearly $800 billion stimulus package, but far more stunningly by the $7.6 trillion the Fed and Treasury had by the beginning of 2009 already pledged to contain the ever-widening collapse of the economy, and the additional sum of up to $2 trillion that the new administration said it would raise from public and private sources to rescue banks.
While there is much talk of how government might rescue Wall Street, or invest in long term infrastructure, there is little serious debate over whether government might play a different major role: acting as a long-term guarantor of America’s (and indirectly the world’s) economic stability, as provider of widespread opportunity, and as partner with the private sector in restoring long-term stable growth. Madrick argues that the faddish mantra of ‘market based solutions’ and virulent hostility to ‘big government’ has damaged the well being of most Americans. He wants to make the case for big government to journalists, academics, policy intellectuals, and politicians who have embraced the earlier "public marketeering" consensus—as well as members of a younger generation who may be unfamiliar with past achievements of government and the potential of the public sector.
Madrick first provides a short history of government’s often-forgotten but central role in the nation’s long economic rise from the 1770s to the 1970s. While government’s share of GDP was quite small from the American Revolution to the Great Depression, its policy influence was large. Madrick shows that government’s role in this period was to enhance the country’s overall rate of growth even as it helped equalize income and wealth distribution. The Great Depression began a substantial shift from a predominantly regulatory state to a revenue state. In consequence, the government’s 7 to 8 percent share of GDP at the start of the century tripled over the next fifty years, and has remained relatively stable ever since, despite the best efforts of conservatives.
He then discusses the problems in the claims of Milton Friedman and others who have argued against big government. There is no real statistical evidence that higher taxes and wealth transfers hurt productivity. The US government has the lowest share of GDP of any OECD country, and the highest levels of income and wealth inequality, poverty, crime, hours worked, and infant mortality. Since the 1970s, the US has grown more slowly than ever before in history, and real wages have stagnated. The fact that so many women work has ironically increased inequality among families.
Madrick not only wants to see policy reform, but a fundamental shift in attitudes. He argues that we need new spending programs and new ways to raise revenue to reverse the consequences of failed ideology over the past three decades. For example, Madrick argues cautiously for an annual $400 billion increase in public spending overall. This would roughly increase government’s GDP share by a modest 3 percent, close to the original stimulus package Obama submitted to Congress (since the $800 billion the President proposed is designed to be spent over the next two to three years, not one). He also advocates single payer health care, a green jobs promotion strategy, the reregulation of finance, a more progressive tax system, increased funding of education at all levels, and large funding for transportation reform. Some – but not all – of this resembles Obama’s policy agenda.
The book’s largest flaw is that it is not as careful and clear-eyed politically as it is economically. It devotes little attention to the rise of religious fundamentalism that coincided with America’s industrial decline, and how the departure from the Democratic Party by millions of white Southern evangelicals and Northern, mostly Catholic, industrial workers—twin pillars of the New Deal—contributed to the world we face today. In many ways this shift may have been more consequential to the spread of "small government" ideology than the intellectual realignment of academics, journalists, policy advisers, and politicians. It also ignores the effects of American foreign and military policies on economic growth. Between 1945 and 1975—the period Madrick cites so approvingly in contrast to the decades that followed—half of all federal spending was for the military, and significant parts of the rest (including for education, roads, science, and technology) were justified as military preparedness. One cannot know when and how the situation in Iraq will end, or whether the war in Afghanistan will grow far larger and more costly—but analysts such as Madrick might consider the effects of the Vietnam War in helping to destroy the New Deal consensus.
Still, Madrick is correct to argue that most Americans—congressional Republicans and broadcasters such as Rush Limbaugh notwithstanding—seem ready to move past the thirty years of conservative domination that resulted from increasing distrust of government. The dismal failure of deregulated financial markets has now—just as in the 1930s—forced upon the US the most fundamental and costly sorts of public interventions in markets. The extent to which Madrick’s insightful and persuasive arguments will be taken up in US policy now rests to a large degree on whether President Obama and the Democrats can restore America’s basic financial health. For the time being that means concentrating on government’s ability first to save Wall Street and restore credit, and then to begin rebuilding the devastation Wall Street’s failure has left behind. The challenge of creating a new era for government as long-term guarantor of our security and well-being lies ahead.
[As a reminder, please take off-topic discussions to the previous thread. -bev]



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Jeff, Welcome to the Lake.
Richard, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Hi there,
I am here. Nice to be here… Jeff
Mr. Madrick, welcome to FDL. I just bought your book and look forward to reading it. Just some positive marketing feedback, I never would have known about your book, had it not been for FDL. That got me to your web page on Amazon which contained the very helpful ten-minute video.
Delighted to be here, Bev. Hello, Jeff
Jeff, Why don’t we start this out by you giving us a sense of how the “big government” debate is changing right now, given the financial crisis and the Obama administration?
Welcome, Jeff. As a lover of the the old TR adage that government needs to be just larger than the largest corporation, I am happy to now have your book to add to the argument.
And Richard, thanks for hosting.
Good afternoon Jeff and Richard and HAppy Easter to all.
Jeff, I have not had a chance to read your book but I like the sentiment of Big Government – especially when it is conveyed honestly and not hidden with rhetoric about how fiscally responsible folks are while they gorge like pigs at the trough.
Jeff, without giving away details that might prevent others from buying the book, would you like to say anything about the role of government as the primary provider of quality control. Here in particular I’m interested in the FDA and EPA, but you may have other views.
Jeff,
During which decade, 1960 – today, have Americans been most happy, and why?
The fact that the US (as it expanded westward) had tremendous natural resources that contributed significantly to its self-sufficiency over the first century and beyond as well as made it a wealthy nation is often taken for granted. We have squandered so much of this wealth, not just in dollars but in resources, that are also now becoming scarce.
“The Case for Big Govt”–let’s call it CBG–I think does several very important things: first, it makes clear govt’s historical role in US development; second, it helps us realize that since WWII the govt share of GDP has been roughly 30%, and not fluctuated much under Dems or GOP; and third, that that share is the smallest of the industrialized countries, and means we spend consistently less on all forms of public goods, which has large consequences now and in the future.
thanks a lot for buying the book and am dsitressed you hadn’t heard of it otherwise. i will tell the pubnlishers, surely., thanks again… jeff
hi richard… j
glad you are on board this argument, gregg… thanks, jeff
Very good to see Richard Parker writing the post and Jeff’s excellent and concise book on FDL. We need to drive a stake through the heart of 3 year old magical thinking about the economy and society, and The Case For Big Government is an excellent place to start. Not only doesn’t the right wing’s idea of a small public government with a large private government work in practice, it does not work in theory either.
hi there,
i have tried to write a book that is analytical, not purely polemical. i tried to stay true to the facts. hope you get a chance to read it and thanks, jeff
You’re right about squandering resources, but one thing CBG reminded me was how central public ownership–state, federal, and local–of land was and is.
Govt in its distribution, pricing, and reserve decisions, the great shaper of the pace and character of national settlement. The public support for infrastructure–railroads, canals, roads, etc.–often is pointed to, but land policies pure and simple made govt far more important than its relatively small size before the New Deal might make it appear.
Even today, nearly 40% of US land is publically owned.
you raise an important point. governmnet is indeed necessary to quality control, among its other duties. ironically, the purer free market people argue that copetition should maintain product quality. ifr one product is deficient, someone else willmake abetter one. this is impractidfal, to say the least. one clear problem is that some products are very hard for a consumer to understand and evaluate–healthcare, for example. another is that much harm can be done while we all sit around and wait for a better and safer product to be made. govt. has a critical role in this area, among other areas… thanks, jeff
hi richard,
i thought i’d go on to some of the other comments first. but suddenly everyone now accepts some version of big govt. when i first started this book, the idea was still broadly anathema. my concerns, howver, is that we may msitake that all we need big govt for is to rescue us from the current crisis. that would be fairly tragic. when we soleve these immediate probolems–no samll matter, i grant–we have much to do–get wages up, build our education, infrastcuture systems, and seriously reform healthcare–and others… back on this later… jeff
Thanks very much.
Hi Jeff. We used to talk from time to time when you were at Business Week and I was a Wall St. economist.
What are your thoughts about the political possibility of making it happen? The Blue Dogs and Conservadems have Obama’s ear and forget the Rs.
hi art,
most surveys show that happiness and more money are not related. some dismiss the happiness surveys, but they are better than one might suspect. one issue is that happiness has to do with relative wealth, not the ability to buy more and more but where one ranks in the pyramid. our increased wealth, however, should help us relieve those most in need and improve access to healthcare. we avhe badly neglected this… thanks, jeff
our natural resources wer eimportant, in apreticualr fertile land and good water sources. eventually coal helped bring down raidcally the cost of steel, as just another excample. but many nations have become wealth with fewer resources. japan is the classic example. it has almsot nothing comapred to us, except deep water ports, and it has done well in the psot World War II period–despite current problerms. when i was a kid, all anyone talked about was america’s wonderful antural resources, by the way… jeff
In contrasting “deregulation” with “regulation” in describing policy choices of recent years, I’m struck by how little deregulation there’s been of consumer duties—mortgage securitization may be a good example of deregulation, but rests on strict regulation of the homeowner’s duty to pay. No one has offered to let that duty to meet monthly obligations somehow be “set free.” In a sense we’re in a world of “assymetrical regulation,” a rather stricter expression of Stiglitz’s ideas about information.
thanks for the nice word.s you meant thiry year old model, right? we ahve been a prioner of antigovt ideology since the 1970s, i;d argue… thanks again, jeff
thanks for bringing that up, richard. govt closely regulated the sale of fedral land in the east and mid-west for sale to us regular folk, making it fairly cheap. it also donated land for the railroads, technical and agricultrual unvierstiies, and other purposes… j a
Oh, and in making the case for big govt, I hope you addressed the issued of badly run govt. It’s a good thing that W didn’t start a vast infrastructure pogram. We’d have even more bridges falling down, RR cars running off the rails, etc. Can’t imagine having W choose what kind of medical care I’d get. (As we saw in the V.A., but would happen more widely with a single payer plan.)
Jeff, I have utterly nonspecific but nonetheless warm recollections of the clear-eyed broadcast journalism you did on both commercial and putatively noncommercial airwaves. (In particular, unless I’m totally misremembering, a local economics program on WNBC for a stretch in the 1980s.)
Glad to see from the intro here that you are an advocate for single-payer healthcare. That’s a topic I feel especially adamant about (even more intensely since going on COBRA).
What do you see as the shortest feasible route to actually getting there, on the assumption that some kind of interim, incremental, Frankensteined compromise is sadly unavoidable?
Help me work through your point here: is it that govt can’t execute infrastructure? Can’t administer? Growing up in midcentury, in So Calif, I was struck by how well done so much public works were. The freeways, airports, schools.
With so much subcontracting of infrastructure work nowadays, is the problem corruption?
People always point out that Russia and China failed in their attempts to build a better society with big government.
I would argue that purging the educated bureaucracy and insisting on putting in less or unqualified loyalists in the bureaucracy is what led to the failure of Communism.
The Bush Conservative movement did the same thing they got rid of General Eric Shinseki put in Gonzo and Monica Goodling at the Justice Dept and Brownie at Fema.
France, Sweden etc have educated bureaucracies and they prove that government can work and do jobs like National Healthcare cheaper.
If anything we should pay them more to attract better talent.
nice to hear “your voice” again… i thinkwe have to come to a point where we raise taxes singificantly==after the current crisis, of course. will the u.s. get there. i am more optimistic now than i was when i wrote the book. if we do recover reasonably prosperously from the current crisis, obama my be unusually popular deep into this first term. if there is some growing congressional Democratic control in Congress as a result, there may be enough political juice to make long-standing necessary changes. i now think such a scenario is possible. if not, it will be a grudging give and take battle and obama may win some victories. some are better than none. but america will not do all that is necessary to restore itself. we have toface the possibility of ongoing erosion of our prospects and our promsies to our people. the stakes are much higher, I think, than people realize… thanks for writing… j
Jeff, fwiw, I hope your publishers have a marketing plan for state governments and state universities. It seems to me both groups have built-in incentives to buy your book in bulk.
If the publisher can get their support, they might be helpful in arranging for robust coverage from the remaining big newspaper dailies.
there’s a lot that govt has done well… much of that infrastructure investment of the New Deal has worked out darned well. much of the interstate highway system. the antional institutes of health. people happen to love medicare. historically, there were remarrkable govt achievements. the most remarkable of the remarkable was the development of the free publis school systems from k through 12. the state run unveisities are mostly a marvel. does govt make mistakes? you bet. especially when it is run by anti-govt presidents, senators and congressmen. do i think govt can maange infrastructure wel. i sure do.. but it reauires effort and a faith int he prupsoe of govt. thanks, jeff
Some govts can execute and some can’t. W is an example of the latter. And big govts that can’t execute do terrible harm, as we have seen.
The problem with W was not direct corruption. It was ideology and being in the pocket of supply side economics, which meant that whatever big bidness did was just fine. But there are many reasons why govts fail to execute. (Communism would have worked better if central planning had been well executed.)
much appreciate your remembering. yes, “strictly business” on nbc. single payer was not remotely likley even two years ago. but people are generally beginning to know how inefficient the current system is and have had too many problems with their private insurance cos. to trust them fully. the political opposition is intense. so i see it a couple of steps at a time. but the principal reason there may be a single payer system in our future is that under the current sysstem healthcare expenditures are jsut rising too rapidly for either individuals or business. we are all in the same pot. i look forward to medicare for all some day, but not without pain in the meantime… thanks for remembering, jeff
Maybe if people got a ”bill” for government services, they would gain some understanding of how government works well and the efficiencies of big government. That is, as you point out, when the government is run by people who don’t want to destroy it (or make it appear ridiculous) for ideological purposes.
no argument there… j
i wil lpass on your comments. thanks, j
Insurance is the ultimate moral hazard business. You should never trust your insurer because once you make a claim, they become your enemy. (Life insurance somewhat excepted, as death happens to be one of the few things that is difficult to deny.)
i definitely believfe electing offical who do not believe in govt is a guarantee of bad government… thanks, jeff
yeah, a lot of insurance companies now specialize in not paying off. they give big bonsues for that…
My bold Since the 70’s slower growth so after the 80’s on after we allegedly recovered from a recession Reagan Milt and Laffer get the blame because we have followed their ideas on the economy ever since then.
Any takedowns of Laffer any mention of just how Milts ideas have lowered living standards in South America and actually caused the immigrant problem in your book? (well that might make the book to long still it sounds very interesting.
Certain Tea Baggers might be surprised about the link between Reaganomics and the rise in the number of immigrants today.
Jeff, Let me push you to give a little overview of what you mean by “big govt”. Is it measured by share of GDP, by function, by some index of human wellbeing (Sen’s HDI concept is now being adapted by the Ford Foundation to analyse developed as well as developing countries). What evidence do you have for big govt’s role in sustained economic growth?
Nice to touch base with you, Jeff, and I look forward to reading your book. Gotta hop.
well, i always thought that if we charged a quarter for every program watched on tv, it would get better. we’d choose more carefully. but on balance i think progressive taxes worked pretty well as a charge for govt. services… what usualy works is when people don’t get govt circusmtances due tobudget cutbacks or “Contracts with America.” Then the are reminded how much they like govt… jeff
some mention of friedman, reagan, ect. they are the advocates of the antigovt ideology that harmed us so. but i am addressing them more specifically and directly in a forthcoming book, called The Age of Greed, not out until atel next year… j
much appreciated…j
I will be waiting. I hope the release of some of Reagan’s papers by Obama will help I assume the economics stuff was not classified.
As you note, it seems a lot easier to argue for big government now, as an offset to big finance. But what if the inevitable revolving door turns big government into a shield for big government? A criticism of the current economic team is that they’re coddling big banks, shielding them from more radical overhaul/re-regulation — protecting them from “the pitchforks.” How do you prevent that from happening?
my view is that there is no major rich nation today that has not had a version of big govt. in general, among the big and rich, total government (all levels) expenditures run between roughly 30 percent and 50 percent of GDP. but govt is much more involved than all that through, regulation, coordination, product tesitng, subsidies, and so on.
the three general areas of empirical susbtantiation for me are these:
one) statistical methods show noe relationship between teh size of govt comapred to gdp and the rate of productivity and gdp/capital growth;
two) i use america’s own istory to show in a generaly empirical way how actively govt was deeply and integrally involved with the economy; three) since the ascent of the recent antiogvt ideology in the 1970s, the us economy ahs done fairly poorly by historical standards: in aprticuarly, check the growth of wages, the standard of living itself, for typical americans… it would take a book or two to answer the questions entirely, richard, as you know. at least i wrote one… j
the real thing is there should always be a pendulum
when government gets to big there is too much corruption, when indsutry begins providing “the commons” there is too much waste
bottom line, the more commons the better however there really has to be a push pull
it is admittedly difficult to accomplish. govt has often been the capitve of biz, as we know. i’d like to see public campign financing. that would work some magaic, i think. i also think obama is often sensitive to this. but apparently not in the case of his economic team… that worries me lots… jeff
Yup, yup, and yup.
1) Shift jobs overseas to avoid paying living wages or dealing with pollution laws: Loss of union members, whose white male members are the biggest group of white males to reliably vote for Democrats.
2) FDR got the New Deal through by being forced to throw blacks under the bus to appease Dixiecrats. When LBJ stopped the legalized throwing of blacks under the bus, that combined with the Vietnam War (which he was on the verge of ending until Anna Chan Chennault sabotaged the Paris Peace Talks at Nixon’s behest) got him booted from the White House, doomed his Great Society, and set in motion the forty-year Republican dominance of Washington (and of the news media that covers Washington).
3) Roe v. Wade energized the conservative Catholics (many of whom were also uneasy about civil rights) to split off from the Democrats and even to make overtures of common cause with the Protestant evangelicals.
i think there’s been corruoption in govt when it was much smaller. i do not think it is a function of size but a nation’s determination. we have generally made progress ince the 1800s but we are hardly perfect. i am not sure busines has made as much program, tho’ it’s made some, alrgely because of govt oversight… thanks, jeff
Digg open
what”Privitizers” don’t understand (or are payed not to understand) is the fact that a “profit model” will almost always be less efficient then a service model, even when we consider corruption as one of the cost factorst more prone to government providing “commons”
for instance, a private health care is concerned with turning profit, they aren’t concerned with providing health care
in other words, they are really in the business of denying claims
on the other hand, the governent actually gets a positive monetary return when they bring someone back into the workforce, providing revenue and productivity
that investment makes it more likely government will provide health care and less likely private industry will
I think Fidel did his best to try to remove the element of greed from daily life. I won’t go into that, except to note that people care to Strive. Removing the opportunity to strive is not very effective as a means to happiness. People strive in different ways. What is hard is to keep the element of greed from overcoming the desire to achieve. People are satisfied in different ways of course. It is hard for the government to have a hand in regulating that piece of human hardwire.
there’s also the individual corruption, those trying to live off the government teet when they could be productive
that’s not as likely with private care as government care, that issue needs to be addressed as well
The case for big government seems to rest in my mind on Games Theory two people working together all things about the two people being equal than two equal people working separate.
There needs to be agreed upon goals and a way to evaluate both progress toward the goal and the goal itself at regular intervals and as circumstances change.
When we are divided we are less productive however the Elite rich also face less competition and downward mobility when we are divided
I see no other reason why the rich GOPers act the way they do except fear that eventually their families will lose money.
i didn’t set out to tell people how to get the govt they need, but that they need it. politics was not the main meassage, tho’ i disagree with richard a bit in the sense that i think economic pain led in parto to rising evengelical anger. this was in conjunction with the rise of anger towards tgovt from toerh less religious groups. racial antipathies alos contributed. all this is a different book than i set out to write, however… thanks, jeff
in gen’l, i think we must make these dciesions on a practidal baisis. ther are time shwne profit is a good motivator, times it’s not. the best check on govt is the demcratic vote, i think. even it’s not perfect… thanks, jeff
i think people should be free to start businesses, make new products, invest and prosper. it is one of the greatest charactersitics of odern society. but there is a place to protect against abuse, isnist on open competition, and provide the assets needed by all to compete and seek opportunity–the latter i think is govt’s role (and there are a few others)… j
i agree,,,
I think of it more in terms of having one of the parties articulate the case not for “bigger” per se, but for an entity that encourages/ensures necessary levels of public investments, that sets and enforces the rules for private investment/competition vs consolidation and wealth sharing, that defines/shapes the “play” that drives the economic engine so as to promote not just ephemeral growth but fair distribution or real walth — e.g., not basing money/wealth on an housing bubble but on something real.
if you get to see the book, you will find that that is by and large what i try to advocate. it is a caose for robust and practial govt. and the shuffle off the dieology that something like big govt is always bad…
Is the GOP war against big government kin to the rise of small states after the break up of the Roman Empire and the belief in the Divine Right of Kings?
After Rome fell the various Nobles wanted a rational to fight the dream of Pax Romana and things were better in the Good Old Days.
The GOP seems to want to fight the idea of the benefits of bigger government with fears of One World Government, End of Times Myths.
It seems the GOP like the Nobles of old would all rather be Kings in the Dark Ages than Roman Officials even if it means America and the World’s living standards go down.
The second half of the 19th century was not the progressive period you describe. It was characterized by poor wages and working conditions and the First Gilded Age. In reaction to it, you had the rise of unions and trustbusting.
I also see no indication that Obama is directing his efforts appropriately or doing enough on the economy. But in a larger sense, I would say we have big government. There is no case to be made for it. Rather do we want Imperial Presidents or effective government?
interesting points. i don’t know that history well enough to comment interestingly. but i sometimes think the antagonism to govt is simply based on a fear that these people will ahve to pay higher taxes. to be fair, there is also some general fear about losing “freedom,” but their simple view of freedom never makes sense to me. your point that they rather be kings is probably closer to the mark… thanks, jeff
i think most historians would agree that the seeds of progressiviem were sonw in the late 1800s and came to fruition under TR with anti-trust policies, some labor protection, and so on. but meantime, there were state and local regulations and progressive argumetns advnaced strongly… it would be wrong to believe that progressivism started with the new deal, for exmple… thanks, jeff
I’d point to Morton Keller’s Regulating a New Society and his Regulating a New Economy as two good introductory volumes on this point. In fact it’s fair to say that the New Deal stood on the shoulders of Progressivism, implementing policies and plans that were articulated before the First World War, but which for one or another reason didn’t become national in scope until the Depression.
thanks, richard…
Why did you choose that number? Where will the money come from more borrowing or cuts in government spending?
Can we get the cash for more Stimulus by ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan now? Military spending doesn’t pay us any dividends after we spend enough money to keep us safe, unless we actually win a war and capture enough oil, gold etc to pay for the war and occupation.
Anyway maybe we can get Boeing, Lockheed Martin etc to make high speed passenger and freight trains powered by wind and sun plants built along the train route that could provide cheap clean power to the towns along the train lines when not in use.
That sounds like a job for big government the states and the private sector have not done it but big governments in Europe and Japan have.
My point is that unions and trustbusting arose out of highly negative and adverse conditions. The problem with the state and local protections was that these were consistently found to be unconstitutional by SCOTUS in this period.
i go over that with some care in the book. in general, i believe we ahve plenty of room to raise taxes to get the job done. i itemize the costs of change i see necessary, including for pre-k, k-12, infrastructure, and healthcare. much of this ivnestment will pay for itself over the years because we have so badly neglected it. by i offer these numbers as a guideline for showing it is all possibl,e without underming the nation’s productivity… if we could cut back dfense spending, which i would strongly favor, so much the better… thanks, jeff
What do you think would be the benefits of more stimulus spending as you propose? What gives us the best bang for Dollar spent on Stimulus spending?
How long before we see results and what would the results be of current Stimulus spending? How much faster bigger what kind of results would we see under your increased Stimulus spending?
I will be going to the bookstore
Jeff, Richard thanks for your comments at 69 and 70, very helpful.
OT, a lot of this discussion reminds me of the old saying, “cheap can be expensive.”
Why does FDL host such authors?
the best way to get spending into the economy right away is through more spending for the poor, such as food stamps. they spend it all, no savings. an efficent way to acconplish that is to send money to state and local govts., who are cutting back sharply now on just such programs because their own tax revenues are falling. they must balance budgets.
tax cuts should mostly be off the table. cutting payroll taxes will probably be the equivalent of more programs for middle income people, but i’s still avoid them.
obama is trying to use the current crisis to orient the nation to do much needed public infetment, i support this, even though the spending will come later. suich spending will also improve expectations in the future, i think, and perhaps draw in more investment from theprivate sector.
in general, the stimulus is probably too small, but given the political obstacles, obama did a very good job. our current crisis, however, is also intertwinece with housing prices and the banking illiquidity. these have to be addressed simultaenously. on these matters, he is doing less well.
As I mentioned above, I have found Obama essentially on all the issues he has taken a position on so far to be more like Bush than a real break from him. In discussions like this one, I often throw in the following exchange and ask for a reaction.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/jour…..ript1.html
The problem is not big government but how it is used, and what we are seeing with Obama is really more of how big government should not be used.
Just lucky, I guess. (Smile.)
thanbks., appreciate the comments and the thought… j
thanks.
i am not completely happy about what’s going on. but it is jsut a beginning for obama… i remain hopeful but cautiously so… j
I agree with you #79 except for your last paragraph:
You really seem to be withholding judgment on Obama. At the ime I wrote, his stimulus package was half the size it should have been and created (best case scenario) a third of the jobs it should have. Since then economic conditions have worsened and it is entirely conceivable that a stimulus on the order of a trillion a year is needed. The ruth is Obama is doing terribly on the economy. The math is the math. We should all get used to it.
he’s not finished. and there are many moderate Democrats and Republicans to deal with…
I should also point out that banking illiquidity is not the problem, banking insolvency is. As for the housing crisis, Obama has done far too little far too late.
As we near the end of this session, I want to drive home the following point: the “debate” between “big” and “small” government advocates is nonsensical on its face.
The US government has always been large and powerful, in the first 130 years because it was the nation’s largest landholder and set development policies through it. Second, from the Civil War onward, government’s regulatory powers expanded exponentially as capitalism expanded. Third, from the New Deal on, public sector revenue and spending have been nearly a THIRD of GDP–and that share has fluctuated only slightly whether “small” or “big” govt advocates have been in power. That size has anchored the economy through business cycles (its Keynesian function) and provided public goods and supplementary income to the great majority (the Roosevelt function).
We’ve just come through a period when “small” government has been an utterly inaccurate a description of the actual dominant agenda.
Jeff’s book is enormously important to driving the myths away, and clearing the public square for serious debate about the real choices ahead of us.
Because we like these Folk:)
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
Jeff, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon
with us discussing your new book.
Richard, Thank you very much for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Jeff’s new book, here is a link.
Thanks all.
thanks to all at fdl and to richard, dilkgient beyond duty, thanks as well… jeff
So then less spending on war more on infrastructure, schools etc but overall little increase in spending?
A shift in the tax burden from the Middle Class to the Rich?
I think you disarm the Tea Baggers Big Government talking points I like it!
thanks. good night all… jeff
He is finished. He just doesn’t know it yet. Neither he nor we have endless time and resources to dink around with this. The housing bubble blew up on August 9, 2007. Lehman collapsed over the weekend of September 15, 2008. Obama is screwing up his chance to address things effectively now. When the stimulus peters out at the end of 2010, it is unlikely that an effective second effort will even be possible.
Thanks I look forward to reading your arguments for a bigger Stimulus package:)
Yes it will we have leverage the banks we both know will need more money.
Now we just need some Democrats to get some Stones and make a trade for more Stimulus money in exchange for more bank money.
How do we pay for it End the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan now! Ask the voters do they want more taxes, or no banks the guys fronting the tea baggers will call off their dogs.
Ask the voters do they want more Stimulus jobs or more war?
Ask the voters do they want to cut Social Security, or do the want National Healthcare.
Maybe we need a 5 million man march on these subjects next summer unemployed people, college kids, every African American Obama can get the African American churches to bus in that and we do not let the GOP leave town we keep Congress in session!
Great thread; I’ll look for the book.