Eli! (or B-RC&DB!)

Dru!

‘Allo, Bruce!

G’day, Bruce!

Eli!
what’s the phonetic pronunciation of that anyway?

I’m Patty “Apple Pie” Brown

Long E, long I. For some reason everyone pronounces it like it has two L’s…

Well, I always snicker when I hear of a lady named Betty, so maybe she’d better tend her own garden, so to speak. Physician, groom thyself.

I thought of a different Betty, actually…

Damn, she’s almost as racist as this person:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KACQuZVAE3s

Well, my maiden name is Polish and I had to get married twice before I found one I liked.

Re Chinese names. A boss of mine in casual office conversation once averred that names disappear thru marriage as the society ages. Thus Chinese, a very ancient civilization, has surprisingly few surnames. Don’t know if that’s right, but I always remembered it.

I always wondered about the long-term effects of hyphenated names. I mean, what happens when two hyphenated people marry each other?

e

Don’t the Spanish have some rule about that?

I have long thought that people should retain their surnames, and the girl children should take their mothers’ surnames, and boy children their fathers’. (Haven’t worked it out for gay couples yet.)

The only couple I know who did that adopted an entirely new name for themselves and their family, because they didn’t want to choose. They hope to honor their former names as they name their children, they say.

Some people combine surnames or parts thereof in clever ways. Mayor of LA is one, I think. Villaraigosa is some combo of his original name and hers.

Generally speaking, I’m fine with it as a matter of choice. But one interesting new wrinkle is the impact of marriage on social networks like Facebook.

I.e., it can make it harder for, say, school classmates to find you if you don’t include your middle name.

Yeah, there was a couple from my college who did that. The new surname was the “Mc” from his name plus the last half of her name.

If my last name was Brown… I would probably change it to Magenta or something.

While we’re at it, let’s get rid of French, I(eye)talian, German and Scandanahoovian names, too. My last name is Ritchey – but that could be based on a German name Roschle, or Italian Ricci, or who knows what. Maybe Betty Brown can tell me what name to use, and how to spell it (Rich? That sounds American!).

As an aside, I almost applauded at our kids’ High School graduations, when the names from 15 or 20 or more different countries and languages would be read. What a great job our educators do! That’s where the real mixing occurs, in our public schools.

As a genealogy buff, naming customs in this country have a lot of variations. In the old south and mid-Atlantic states a common one was that the boys would get their mothers maiden name as a first name. That’s why you have a lot of men running around with first names that sound like last names – because they are. Us gen buffs use that feature to trace female lineage because during that time, female identities disappeared upon marriage and the masses of Suzy LNU (Last Name Unknown) drive everyone to distraction.

I don’t know much about British naming practices – they have gazillions of hypenated last names over there while we are relative newcomers to that – maybe need to check that out.

As far as Asian surnames, it isn’t that the names disappear so much as that in a lot of places they were originally used to designate areas of the country (everyone living in Maine would have the last name “Maine”). As transportation became more accessible, the people have spread around and are all mixed up and that is not the way they get their names anymore.

This is also true in Scandinavian countries – the last name told which collective farm the family came from or was attached to.

What I find hysterical is that most Asian names are pretty phonetic in their English translations without all the extra letters, and most of them are pretty short (except Japanese). I don’t understand how this idiot thinks a name like Ko is so difficult – it’s two letters! Whew!

Guess this idiot doesn’t know anyone from the Czech Republic or Russia or most any other Eastern European nation. Zbigniew Brzinzski anyone?

What about the surnames that are based on occupation, or parentage?

Also, I had the exact same thought about Asian names, especially, say, Chinese and Korean ones, which are mostly monosyllabic.

“… adopt a name just for identification purposes .”

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? lady is not only racist but dumb as dogshit.

LOL. But she’s so full of shit .. . . .

Thanks for the info.

My mother’s maiden name was Lee. (I even had an uncle named Robert E. Lee.) One of my brothers received that as a middle name. I think that surname makes everyone sound like an adverb. (I also have a copy of my great, great, [however many] grandfather’s Civil War discharge certificate.)

My maiden name was Bednarcyk, and my paternal grandmother was Wasciewicz. We have relatives by that name who we visited in Poland in 2001. I cannot fathom Polish pronounciations and spellings. It’s like no other language I am familiar with.

Polish names suck. I have one. Know why? it’s so damn easy. but people just assume it has to be hard to spell. “How do you spell that?” How come if Polacks are so dumb, we don’t have trouble spelling our names but all these other people do?

Would Bruce Lee have had to change his name?

Yes. I suggest an good American name like Bruce Brzezinski.

(edit) crap. Somebody beat me to Polish names.

okay. Bruce Scarborough.

His middle name could be Douche.

Hi, EEE-lie.
Who are these mealy-mouthed NPR guys talking econ on Rachel’s show? Yes, there are a lot of factors, but not everything was “a good idea at the time” and not all of the factors/players are equally responsible. Sheesh. Oh, and mortgage backed securities are actually a great idea…
Feh!
Rachel should have called Scarecrow, Ian, et al. Or Bill Black!

FunnyDiva

never been. would love to go.

I think a lot of the spellings of Eastern European and Russian names comes from the difficulty of trying to make sense of the Cyrillic alphabet.

Also, in a lot of those countries, all those letters denoted differences in pronunciation – and the English language is certainly very much less nuanced in that regard. So we just pronounce them like some kind of hash and that doesn’t do justice to the actual heritage pronunciations.

My relative (my grandmother was his great great aunt, or something like that) was a fabulous host. They live in the northeast corner and we went all down the eastern part of the country. Cracow is one of the few old towns that was not destroyed in WWII. It was wired to blow, but the Nazi general who was in charge loved it, so he didn’t press the button. We also drove by a U.S. base that I learned in 07 was one of the black sites.

tried to watch beck today. i really tried. he didn’t make me angry. at first. no shit, less than 2 minutes in and I’m saying out loud “What the fuck is he talking about?” Then again less than a minute later. then some guy on the panel opened his mouth and I said “who is that douchebag?” didn’t recognize the guy. it was jonah goldberg.

Occupational names tend to be British Isles in background – and in particular related to the labor-class of the 18th century. Nothing more class-distinction-divisive than having a last name that proclaims you are member of serfdom.

As for the parentage one – boy, don’t get me started!! LOL

you rang?

magentawarrior here.

I don’t think Poland ever used the cyrillic alphabet. Was R.C. from about 1000 on. Yes, the letters have different pronounciations, which makes life difficult if you’re only gonna be there 2 weeks.

Why not make it really easy for Betty and require that everyone in America change their name to either Dingus Squatford Jr. or Pamela E. Lee?

there’s a war on magenta? /s

If Ruth Brown was a radical Texan DFH.. she would have said, “Yoo name is mud.”

My wife is a Wong Reyes. Her father was from China in the 1920’s and her mother’s side is indigenous from Costa Rica. So what would Betty Brown have her do?

only in betty brown’s alternate universe.

The pilot of the plane that hit the U.S. plane forcing it to land in China was named something like Wong Wei. You can’t make that stuff up.

Most of what I talk about is/has to be pretty general. The pronunciation thing fits with Poland and several other Eastern European countries, the Cyrillic alphabet with Russia and other former Soviet-bloc countries. There are overlaps and things as well.

I have a great-grandmother who was a Polish Jew, another who was from Norway, a great-grandfather from Wales (talk about spelling stuff!), one from Ireland, and a couple of others back there from what is now the eastern part of Germany.

The Polish ancestors have about 5 spellings on official records.

An additional part of name spelling and such is immigration. If the new immigrant had a difficult name, was illiterate, and didn’t speak English, it was highly likely that the immigration clerks filling out their papers would choose to ‘reassign’ names, or give them phonetic spellings based upon nothing more than their personal preferences. There were no standards for phonetic spellings, nor were there any rules regarding ‘reassigning’ names.

There are thousands of people in this country with Eastern European and Scandinavian heritage who really don’t know it – and have no way of tracing their roots because their last name is now Smith, Jones, Johnson, or some other similar thing.

In my family, the last name Morris is a case in point. It is spelled as you see in England and Ireland, Mawrhys in Welsh and Maurice in French. Immigration officials managed to put all of these different groups of people under a last name spelled Morris or Morriss or even in some cases Morrissey.

I get a kick out of baseball players with names like Vladimir Guerrero, or before that, Ivan Calderon.

I assume that Cuba’s closeness to the old Soviet Union allowed Russian names to infiltrate into the Carribean/Latin American orbit, but it’s just a theory.

Breaking: Easter Bunny names hare apparent.

My wife is a Wong Reyes. Her father was from China in the 1920’s and her mother’s side is indigenous from Costa Rica. So what would Betty Brown have her do?

channeling betty brown (i do live in texas), she’d change her name to Wrong Way. betty brown is not for the faint-hearted. bless her soul and no offense to your wife.

The only thing that happened to my grandfather when he immigrated in the 1890s is that they dropped the z from his surname. Much luckier than have it changed to Smith or Jones, Betty Boop notwithstanding.

I have a great-grandmother who was a Polish Jew, another who was from Norway, a great-grandfather from Wales (talk about spelling stuff!), one from Ireland, and a couple of others back there from what is now the eastern part of Germany.

Hey, I’m Welsh-Jewish myself. And even within that, my grandmother’s a German Jew and my grandfather’s a Russian one.

unpronounceable russian last name here – it means “hammer” in english so i assume there were carpenters somewhere back in the old country.

My dad claims that his family’s Welsh ancestor was named “Ryrid Fledd”, which supposedly means something like “tore a wolf in half with his bare hands.”

I’m about 99% sure that none of that is true.

Did you say “Magenta“?

Yes, Great Scott! but no relation… scouts honor! *s*

*spew* … Excellent !

Eli !

Housework and gardening.

I’m sure Brown, Betty will issue a mea culpa of sorts on Monday … “Mee Soh solly ! Mee Soh Solly !”

Petro!

Why, she would have her do the housekeepin’, of course !

Eli, after viewing the YouTube, I think you left something out of the rules above, that surely Ms. Brown included somewhere: No Pooftahs!

How’s it goin’, buddy ?

Has Rush expressed an opinion on this as yet ?

eek! quick, change me back to greenwarrior.

Goin’ good – you?

None that I’ve heard, but if he does talk about it, I’m sure he’ll say that it’s a liberal witch hunt against this poor well-meaning woman who is only trying to help Asian-Americans to assimilate.

Brown, Betty would have a collaption if she had to figure out how to pronounce (or spell) Welsh names.

Those Koreans better get their shit together with their impossible-to-pronounce surnames:

The most common Korean surname (particularly in South Korea) is Kim, followed by Lee and Park. Together, these three surnames are held by around half of the ethnic Korean population.

I owe you a Coke

Hell, *I’m* Welsh and I have a problem with using W as a vowel…

hah! so you haven’t felt like ryrid fledding lately?

Not having studied Chinese, I can’t even begin to guess how to say any of those bizarre names that look like no English name or word that I’ve ever seen before.

Kinda like Dobbsy asking, “Where are the American Flags?” during Cinco de Mayo Parades …

No, it’s been tough fledding lately.

That’s a big fuckin’ rabbit. Has to have his own garden.

Dr. Pepper, please and thanks ! *g*

Make sure it has plenty of chemicals!

Wow, I thought I was the only Pepper left.

I thought Ian was Welsh and you were just Eli.

No Dude … it’s way better than any other soft drink, except for A&W Root Beer, IMO …

are worried it may plant a seed of doubt in consumers’ minds about conventionally grown crops.

We can only wish. Real food, what a concept.

LOL !!! Divine snark !

I get called Ian a lot, actually. Maybe that’s why.

Way better than root beer. Cream soda, on the other hand, that’s a tough call.

cute article. complete with monsanto ad right next to it.

Vernor’s Ginger Ale or Dr Pepper. Every time I look at an Orange Crush I want an RC and a Moon Pie.

Wow, Ian and Eli are brothers? Or cousins? Or married?

hard call between root beer and cream soda, but i think the cream soda wins for me.

Cream Soda is in a whole ‘nother category …

Monsanto = the reincarnation of Dr Fu Manchu

Cream Soda. Gag me with a spoon.

Dr. Pepper
Cream Soda
IBC Root Beer

Of course, adult beverages are in a completely different category . . .

Sure … sounds like a larf ! *g*

Namaste SD !

Or IBC Black Cherry.

up until now, i had nothing but deep love and respect for you. :)

I keep telling him he needs to choose a less confusing name…

Which reminds me that I haven’t seen Ian around here of late.

been to wiki and back. fu manchu sounds like a slightly mischievous child compared to the unrelentingly evil that is monsanto.

This I have not seen.

Yet.

When Mrs. Peterr and I go wine tasting, we bring along a variety of unusual/new beverages for The Kid, so that he can do some tasting of his own. Got to add this to the list.

I didn’t say you couldn’t enjoy it. *g*

What about Moxie? My best friend from high school’s dad is practically obsessed with it.

Up here, we Canucks encounter unusual names every day. Toronto is a great multicultural fabric, where we actually knew that Iraq had 3 different sects of Muslims … unlike the last genius y’all had in Office.

We’re all about free choice here.

Even when your choice sucks.

Other than a natural soda made with real sugar it’s the best.

And then there’s Pachacutec.

I’m not going to tell him he needs to change his name — you tell him.

IBC anything..Orangina, Dr Pepper or Meyers and Coke with lime.

May I also add my vote of confidence … IBC Black Cherry is excellent !

LOL

If BillO watches the video, he’ll probably think they’re saying “No loofahs!” and get all upset…

I actually have a couple of cousins with unusual names up there.

ES ! How’s the Wing ?

You’ve got cousins in Toronto ?

Ewwww, a Coke product. *making cross sign with fingers*

I figured it was easier to learn Incan so I could pronounce it.

Yep, a couple of teenage girls, very creative. And my uncle, of course (also very creative).

If you ever come up here to visit, the first 3 5 drinks are on me !

Early day tomorrow.

Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.

Namaste

Baby steps, but getting better. It sure wants out of this old sling… Doc better give me permission soon.

Back in the late 70s, I lived in a college town where a fair number of the international students were from Iran. About half were followers of Khomeni, who had fled the Shah, and the other half were followers of the Shah, who were studying on the Shah’s dime. I was in high school at the time, and the kids of these Iranian college students were classmates.

During freshman year, one from each of those two groups fell in love with each other. “I forbid you to see him/her!” was the unanimous refrain from the parents, though it did not keep them apart. Later that year, when the English teacher handed out “Romeo and Juliet,” no one in our class had any trouble connecting with Old Will’s story.

The teacher did, however, look at this pair in class and make a point of saying “Don’t Try This At Home.” They blushed, but they also heeded the teacher’s words.

Woohoo! I’d like to; Toronto’s a lovely city, but I was only there briefly the last time, for my uncle’s wedding.

Wise man.

Her economics degree wouldn’t count for much with Betty Brown.

Pleasing dreams, SD !

No problem; I prefer the Dr. as well.

Eli; I’m reading The Fools Tale (The year is 1198. All of Wales is in turmoil.) Fortunately, it has a 2 page pronunciation guide, or I’d be sunk.

Have you seen Persepolis? It’s bittersweet, but quite good.

Not correct, recommend this link to read up on the laobaixing family names.

There have been for centuries the Hundred Family Names which make up 85% of the last names in China; they are nearly all monosyllabic, and denote a region of origin. In my case, my family’s name was Lum (also Lin, Lim or Lam depending on specific origin – Lin and Lim are Chinese, where Lam is more common in Hong Kong and Vietnam). The name is denoted by a double tree character, meaning woods or forest; it also is believed to originate from a region of China which featured heavy forests (Lanhai, if memory serves, but the name goes back to the Shang dynasty so who knows?).

What really gets my goat is that we have to dumb-down and make it simpler for this idiot Betty Brown. How tough can Lum be, for crying out loud??

It’s also the icing on an already ugly cake; you see, my family “lost” its family name when my great-grandfather emigrated to Hawaii. He was recorded improperly, as so many persons of non-Anglo heritage were, but in his case his given name was recorded as his family name and his family name as his given name. No one who came to America more than a hundred years ago from my family has their Chinese surname; I’m now one of a hundred or so people “lost” in Hawaii rather than one of the hundreds of thousands of my family in China who share the 16th most common Chinese surname which dates back to 1134 BC.

And now Betty Brown wants me to dumb it down for her.

Piss off, Betty; you can kiss my faintly yellow ass.

I know how you feel, but better to make sure it heals completely …

No, but I’ll file it away.

I’m really a tea drinker. I stock up on sodas about once a year.. forget all about them most of the time.

Hmm, interesting. My girlfriend loves historical fiction, too.

Great Story ! We’ve been through that in the 80’s & 90’s in Toronto but today most parents expect their kids to fall in love with someone from a different culture.

Rachel tore this one up tonight!
Pointing out that “Betty” is a very short form for the longer, more complicated and harder to spell “Elizabeth”.

hehe

i COULD go off here on the “Brown” part, but I know better than to get another TWI!!!!
(Typing While under the Influence)

I’m not sure this is the week to be admitting to being a tea drinker.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that. *g*

So I’m not the only one with second-degree stupid burns.

Amen, Rayne !

Actually, the Chinese last name “Lee” is already the modified-for-English pronounciation of the actual Chinese name “Li.”

“Woo” for “Wu,” etc.

But apparently, Brown was all screwed up by the nicknames: you know, like “Betty” for “Elizabeth.”

Bitch.

(((((Siri)))))

ROFL

late night upstairs

Prbyzylski. There’s an easy Chinese name.

Sha-bil-ski.

Incan is a very difficult language to learn, which is why I call him Patch.

My first thought of potential name changees was Boehner. Have a hell of a time pronouncing that right.

Actually, no, Li or Lee or Lei is the first most common Chinese surname. It’s possible that some Li are corrupted variants of Lin or Lim, but the pronunciation makes it doubtful. Definitely not a mistake made by any persons who can read pictographic representations since Li/Lee/Lei is one character, and a very different one from the double character of Lin/Lim/Lum/Lam.

Maybe Betty doesn’t get Lei’d enough … *g*

I blame Highland Park Single Malt TBogg’s last post for my skewered sense of humor tonight !

Well, with an attitude like that I can certainly understand why she might not be getting lei’d.

What about “Patches”?

If your g-f is looking for something to read I just finished a couple of great ones – Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke and Chatterton, by Peter Ackroyd- highly recommend.

LOL … Touche !

I think she tried the first one and found it impenetrable. Will see about the other one.

Have you read Lempriere’s Dictionary? I got that one from my stepmother. It started out a bit slow, but once the priest covered himself with mashed potatoes, I was hooked.

Half tempted to write the bigoted twit a letter explaining in language simple enough for a kindergartner what kind of an idiot she is how Chinese naming conventions work and how simple they are.

And then sign it,

“Sincerely, Fuk Yoo Tu”

OMFG !!! Please do it !

Or maybe sign off as…

Sincerely,

Suk Mai Dik

Tempting, very tempting.

But my better (and mostly Asian) angels tell me to leave her to wallow in her stupidity and spend the energy on those worth saving.

Impenetrable is a good way to describe the beginning of JS and Mr.N.; but I would encourage another try, if she has the time to commit! (It is long and meandering). I’ll definitely be reading it a 2nd time to pick up what I surely missed the 1st go ’round.
I haven’t read Lempriere’s Dictionary; but thank you, it is now on my list.

Although many republicans pundits have denounced President Obama’s use of the word “arrogant” in one of his speeches in Europe, Betty Brown and others who think like she does are exactly the Americans he was referring to. They tend to think that anyone who is not like them should be forced to change by law, if necessary.

Hey, maybe Betty Brown wouldn’t have so much trouble with Asian names if they just repeated them over and over again, really loudly and slowly!

The Chinese and Japanese all look alike. And names like “Wang, Po, and Nakanuma are so different from English, . . . I never can remember how to tell them apart.

Can’t they wear badges, or tatoos on their forearms, or something?

excellent post Bruce.

Yes yes, the woman is ignorant and clumsy with her language. (Though, since she was speaking to a representative of the Organization of Chinese Americans, perhaps she wasn’t, in fact, suggesting that all Asian people speak Chinese, but asking a representative of the Chinese-American community about his cultural subset, specifically.)

I find the underlying issue of having two legal identities more interesting.

Ko told the committee that people of Chinese, Japanese and Korean descent often have problems voting and other forms of identification because they may have a legal transliterated name and then a common English name that is used on their driver’s license on school registrations.

Leaving aside the voter ID law that is at issue in this particular hearing, you have to wonder about the wisdom of having two separate state-recognized identities. Everything from buying booze to setting up a video store account to writing a check just got harder, and of course you’re going to have issues with matching your driver’s license to your legal identity — they *don’t* match!

In her own backward, halfwitted way, I think this woman was trying to get at an actual, if minor and technocratic, problem.

Personally, I say just keep your original name and let people have trouble pronouncing it.

Your ‘technical’ description makes only about half sense until you look at what Ms. Brown actually said. She claimed that “chinese” names are SO HARD TO PRONOUNCE that they should be changed so all us dumb Merkins don’t have to larn Chinese cuz it’s really difficult.

And as we have all been discussing – how hard is it to pronounce Ko, Lee (or Li), Park, Kim, Cho, Yoo (Ack!) or any one of the hundreds of 2 and 3 letter last names held by thousands of our Asian-American citizens?

The fact that there are already two different ‘legal’ forms of identity with different names – PROVIDED BY THE GOVERNMENT – for recent immigrants, tells me there is a lot more screwing with these people than even Ms. Betty’s stupid rants have revealed.

Let’s not get diverted from the true topic.

I’m trying to wrap my head around this, and not succeeding well. She’s claiming that ‘Ko’ is too hard to pronounce? ‘Dumber than dogshit’ doesn’t begin to cover it, BL.

One of my best friends in college was Japanese by derivation, going to school on the GI Bill. He’d been a tunnel rat in Nam. He used his family name of Hamamoto, but I’d say he’d earned the right to call himself whatever he damn well pleased.

Yeah those Asian names like Zbigniew Brzezinski are really a bitch to pronounce.

The Republican tent isn’t big enough to host a flea circus.

Deliciously quotable line, Eli, and so fitting!

Never saw the Pythons do that Bruce one. Thanks. A hoot. Reminds me of a guy I dated long ago who called me “honey” from the get go. Found it endearing until I found out about his big stable of “honeys” and how much simpler for him than to have to remember our respective names. Grrrrrr.

So Pythons, Repubs… name-group-think … (non) think. Anti-individualism linquistically and psychologically.