[Please welcome Liza Goitein, director of the Liberty and National Security Project at the Brennan Center for Justice. As with all live chats, please stay on topic and be polite, and take off-topic discussions to the prior thread. Thanks! -- CHS]
What I want to discuss today is the nominations of Dawn Johnsen to head the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel and Harold Hongju Koh to serve as Legal Advisor to the State Department. As you all know, conservatives have come out swinging against these nominations. The nominees themselves are so well-qualified, so clearly within the progressive political mainstream, and the attacks against them so frenzied, one is left scratching one’s head and wondering: what on earth is going on here?
It’s hard to gain much insight from the pattern of deception and misrepresentation. Highlights include allegations that Johnsen compared motherhood to slavery (she didn’t); that Koh wants U.S. courts to practice Islamic law (he doesn’t); that Johnsen has reversed herself on how the Commander in Chief powers interact with statutory law (she hasn’t); and that Koh is against Mother’s Day (he isn’t).
All we can learn from such episodes is that the opposition’s tactics have sunk to a new low and honor has left the building.
More illuminating is the opponents’ characterization (or, I should say, caricature) of positions the nominees have actually taken. In painting Johnsen and Koh’s views as dangerous and radical, the nominees’ opponents have betrayed a profound hostility to the rule of law that elevates the stakes of these nominations.
Take Senator Cornyn’s statements about Dawn Johnsen. Johnsen has stated that the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, along with our conflict against al Qaeda, are wars. But she has noted that we must be careful about using the term “war” to describe other national security threats, because “war has a long history of specialized constitutional meaning.” Cornyn cited this comment as evidence that Johnsen “has not demonstrated the requisite seriousness and resolve to meet the very real national security challenges this nation confronts today.”
But Johnsen is 100% correct as a matter of law.
War requires congressional authorization. Congress has granted authorization for our wars against al Qaeda and the Taliban, and for the war in Iraq. No other wars have been authorized. The law thus prohibits applying the framework of war, with its specialized constitutional meaning and attendant authorities, to any of the other security threats we face. John Cornyn doesn’t care; Dawn Johnsen does.
In a more general sense, Cornyn castigates Johnsen for her “prolific and often strident criticism of the legal underpinnings of the previous administration’s counterterror policies.” Leaving aside the charge of “stridency” (do you think Cornyn would have used that word for a male nominee?), Johnsen’s criticisms of the legal underpinnings of Bush’s counterrorism policies have been right on the mark. The Bush administration itself was forced to renounce some of the OLC memos Johnsen criticized because they were so profoundly flawed. And let’s not forget that the Supreme Court has had four opportunities to review Bush counterterrorism policies and has struck the policies down each time. That’s because Bush had a tendency to ignore the law. John Cornyn doesn’t care; Dawn Johnsen does.
The charges against Harold Koh are just the same tune with different words.
He is portrayed as a radical extremist for recognizing the importance of international law. (His critics appear to draw no distinction between international treaties that the U.S. has ratified – which are more correctly viewed as U.S. law – and laws that apply only in other countries, which may be instructive but not binding, as Koh has recognized.) I can’t think of anything more dangerous than a State Department lawyer who doesn’t believe in international law. It’s a recipe for lawlessness in that Department – which may be the point. After all, the same critics who are shouting that Koh will use international law to obliterate U.S. law were no fans of applying U.S. law in Guantánamo Bay. (Koh was.)
What’s particularly disturbing is that these nominees’ commitment to the rule of law is being used to portray them as radical and outside the mainstream. I’ve been concerned for some time that Bush’s pattern of disrespect for the rule of law might become “the new normal” unless swiftly and forcefully repudiated. The nominations of Koh and Johnsen are themselves a strong message on that score, but the messages, viewed in total, have been mixed. Obama has resisted calls to hold Bush officials accountable for violations of the law, and he has even asserted some of the same overbroad powers Bush asserted – such as the power to override parts of statutes through signing statements and the power to shut down lawsuits by claiming that the very subject matter of the lawsuit is a “state secret.” Such actions perpetuate the notion that the President is beyond (if not above) the law in some matters. They indirectly enable John Cornyn and his friends to paint scrupulous adherence to the rule of law as a slightly nutty idea in these dangerous times.
The bottom line is that the stakes here are thus much higher than whether Obama gets his first choice to fill these slots. And they go beyond how the rule of law will apply at the Justice and State Departments.
Most observers agree: the attacks on Johnsen and Koh are spring training for the coming attacks against Supreme Court and other judicial nominees (Koh himself may be one) who display a similar commitment to the rule of law. That’s why it’s so important to expose what’s behind the current attacks, and defeat them.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts.




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Welcome to Firedoglake – so glad you could join us today!
My thoughts? Simple. The whole thing makes me sick. This. Is. Not. A.
Friggin’. Game! Good people are pawns.
Liza — thanks so much for being here today to talk about such a timely issue. I wondered if we could get your take on the back and forth recently on Judge Hamilton’s nomination and the GOP boycott of his hearing in Senate Judiciary this week?
It pains me to think that it has become all about tactics and so little about the rule of law and the needs of the public in restoring it.
Yep. That seems to be it all in a nutshell. Unfortunate as I am old enough to remember when the Republicans would voice legitimate disagreement rather than manufacture rage where it didn’t exist.
Welcome to FDL Liza and thank you for your efforts.
and Welcome Liza. NJ lawyer here. Very proud of our justice. Brennan. Not Alito. Truly a giant. Brennan. Not Alito.
Hello, and welcome!
I think we can see the outlines of what the Republican strategy is going to be with Obama judicial nominees, including a possible SCOTUS nom–from what has gone down with Koh, Johnsen, and nominees to the federal bench, do you have any sense of what the White House strategy will be going forward? Is “no drama” Obama going to fight for his picks? When it comes time for a Supreme, is he going to “compromise” in advance, rather than try to restore some ideological balance to the court?
Thanks for the welcome! And thank you, Christy, for hosting this discussion and providing this terrific forum.
Liza,
I read that Senator Specter is taking a leading role in opposing these nominations, as well as that of Judge Hamilton. Any idea about what tactics might embarrass him enough to encourage him to do what is right rather than what might please the “right”?
I think it’s all part of the same pattern. The plan is to portray all of Obama’s legal nominees as wildly controversial — even when there’s simply no basis for controversy — in order to lay the groundwork for the Sureme Court fight.
Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today and for the very good work the Brennan Center does.
Sadly, I fear you are correct on this observation:
In the discussions of torture and illegal surveillance, those of us who are upset by these practices whether they come from the Bush Administration or the Obama Administration are dismissed by the likes of Cornyn as civil liberties extremists. As you note, all we want is for the rule of law to be enforced. Now we are the extremists, even though we are trying to roll back extreme policies.
By way of intro for Liza, folks, she used to work with Sen. Feingold and has done some fantastic work on civil liberties issues — including the great “secret laws” hearings we covered last year. So glad you all get to “meet” Liza talking with us here about rule of law. She’s been working passionately on these issues for a while and I’m thrilled to have her chatting here about it today.
Thanks Chrisy,
Hi Liza welcome to the Lake,
thanks for explaining the situation so clearly.
I think the administration has actually done quite well defending these picks, and I think that bodes well for what Obama may do with Supreme Court nominations — as long as his defense of the current nominees is successful. If not, he may be left with the impression that compromise is the only way to go.
A lot of Specter’s involvement has been in response to the upcoming primary battle he’s likely to get with Pat Toomey running at him from the far right. Specter’s posing on legal nominations comes from pushback he got from the right wing on some recent votes.
Arlen is a lot of things, but you can’t call him immune to right wing scare tactics. He’s trying to ratchet up his profile with the right-wing folks on legal issues, especially national security and abortion claims about Johnsen and Koh.
With the Easter recess for Congress coming up, I’d say folks showing up at any public appearances he does and calling him on these tactics publicly would be a good start to accountability.
Thanks for taking time to join us this afternnon, Liza. And thanks for the most informative post.
Now we are the extremists, even though we are trying to roll back extreme policies.
“Extremists for the Rule of Law” as in “Effete Snobs for Peace.”
;)
Welcome, Liza.
Liza, I think you are correct in your assessment that the tactics being employed in delaying these confirmations are warm-ups for subsequent SCOTUS nominations. How much credence do you give to the alternate, although somewhat related, suggestion that the delay is a sort of blackmail to prevent release of the most explosive of the the OLC torture memos?
Specter has said he needs more time to consider Johnsen’s nomination. He is facing a serious challenge from the right in his next primary, which may well explain why he is wavering. In the past, though, Specter has, on occasion, stood up for the rule of law even when it meant breaking from his own party. So I think there is room to sway him — mostly by continuing to emphasize that these nominations are all about the rule of law. I have an op ed in today’s Philadelphia Inquirer along those lines.
Liza,
You noted that Congress “authorized” the war with Al Queda and the Taliban. The Constitution reserved the power to “declare” war to the Congress. I see a distinction between “declaration” and “authorization”? “Authorization” seems to mean, “it’s okay to go in if you want to, Mr. President,” while “declaration” says, “Go in, Mr. President.”
How did we end up with a Congress that can “authorize” but won’t “declare?” What can we do about it?
Jim, your comment reminds me of one of Senator Cornyn’s other attacks on Sawn Johnsen: she is too “partisan” because of how strongly she condemned the disgraceful OLC memos. But the whole basis of her condemnation was that the memos’ authors were serving as political enablers rather than independent lawyers. How much more non-partisan can you get?
Liza,
I’m really happy to hear about the op-ed. I think that kind of exposure should make a difference. From the little I know of the gentleman, he thinks highly of his legal credentials and an effort to make him defend his actions on professional as opposed to political grounds would seem helpful.
Liza has a better opinion of Specter than I do. I think it will depend on which way he thinks the wind is blowing when he casts his vote. *g*
Honestly justbetty, though I want the usual suspects to bash Specter, Burr, Cornyn, etc., the most important thing I want from Specter is for him to waste RSC money. I’m from Philly, and nothing’d please me more than for him to not just crash n burn to Toomey while both of em to go through as much cash as possible in order to let the Dem take him out (and hopefully not a corporate whore Casey clone). As to who that might be, I dunno.
I hope Liza and the rest of us are tracking the real measure of these blockages – the cash donations these people are getting. A comparison between the donations from whomever by the anti-Hilda Solis nod (EFCA), anti-Tammy Duckworth nod(???), and these legal nominations would be a great post. I bet there’s a link or three between them, as well as the people behind Norm Coleman’s futile fight.
On the question of whether the threatened filibuster may be “blackmail” to prevent Obama from releasing more OLC memos: That certainly seems possible to me, and I’ve had my eye out for additional confirmation of that story. If it’s true, it’s just another way in which the opposition to these nominations is based on hostility to the rule of law. Releasing the memos could trigger calls for accountability, and accountability is what makes the rule of law work.
Thank god fopr youy op-ed! Rick Santorum has one too. Obama has a “deep seated antipathy” and “disdain for” what he calls “American values.” He actually said that.
The Op-Ed is very good. Here’s a sample:
Thanks for the sample and the link! Really good stuff, Liza.
Bargain Countertenor – that’s a million dollar question, and I can only give you a five-cent response right now… I agree it’s problematic that Congress’s role in declaring war has been so watered down. But the Supreme Court has viewed authorizations for use of military force as triggering the laws and authorities of war, so for now, we’re stuck with the system we’ve got.
Liza – Greetings and welcome to FDL. Do you see any of the delay of Dawn Johnsen (and to a lesser extent Dave Kris) involving al-Haramian and the consolidated cases pending in front of Vaughn Walker in NDCA? Do you see the delay as being about any specific review of prior OLC opinions, or just a general obstreperousness by the GOP?
Just remember that Republics are serious abusers of psychological projection.
I’ve been wondering about a connection to pushing some of the al-Harimain filings myself. Thanks for asking about that!
This is another situation where the fact that DC has been wired for Republicans since 1968 on makes it hard to get the press to accept refutations of GOP talking points.
It’s part of the standard righty game, always pushing Overton’s window. Torture isn’t extreme; opposing it is. Flouting international law isn’t extreme; respecting it is. How effective are these tactics still? Is this a “teabag” issue, or is it real? I share the upthread worry that if either of these nominees are sunk, Obama will go all post-partisan with his SCOTUS pick (s), and the court will stay as right as it is. Remember how Clinton’s appointments were treated?
Thanks for all of your nice comments about the op-ed. I do think it’s important to Specter, for whatever reason, to preserve his image as a defender of the rule of law. The more constituents who contact him about this, the better. Also, some opponents of the nomination might be swayed to allow an up-or-down vote (even though they would then vote no) if their constitents were mad about the filibuster tactic.
Thanks. I realized that I was rather O/T with the question after I pushed SUBMIT. I’m the father of two Army officers, and it’s rather a sensitive subject to me. It’s good to know that I’m not the only one who sees a distinction there.
Liza, what do you think of the idea that, since of all the warrantless wiretapping that’s been going on – and, sadly, of Obama’s seeming approval of it being continued – that J. Edgar Hooverism has returned? The former CIA man Ray McGovern has been leaning that way in recent interviews (one at electricpolitics) in order to explain the reticence of Congress and the Senate to really prosecute the war criminals – as in not the lawyers but the Deciders.
I would think that in this game of thrones the same would apply.
Also, as to the SCOTUS, who do you think the likely Obama candidates are?
There’s absolutely no need for us to pay any attention to rethug interference in the judicial nomination process. Nothing to see here. It’s not like the rethugs would ever try to pack benches with partisan hacks to facilitate the stealing of elections. I mean.. no way. Would never happen. Scalia, Alito and Thomas are outstanding nonpartisan jurists, truly committed to the spirit of the constitution and the rule of law. Bush v. Gore never happened, and Norm’s such a swell guy… ;-P
I think that is as much or more because the extremists fear that they will be revealed as such if sanity returns to any number of corners of the government. And so they will try to prevent that where they can by whatever means they can get away with.
Alas, Cornyn was a big part of the torture memos are perfectly legal and okay brigade when Yoo’s legal work started being questioned publicly, and he won’t allow his own reputation to be sullied when someone else’s can be instead, I fear.
On the issue of warrantless wiretapping: I feel like the real scandal here is not the original illegal program (well, OK, that’s obviously a scandal too) but the fact that Congress dutifully changed the law to make the illegal wiretapping legal. With a recent FISA Court opinion upholding the constitutionality of that statute, we’re definitely facing an uphill battle in terms of rolling back the changes. I’m not sure the release of former OLC memos upholding the legality of warrantless wiretapping will end up having much of an effect there (which is not to say they shouldn’t be released, of course!).
Joining the chorus to thank you for coming to “talk” to us – I’ve held the Brennan Center in high respect for many years – it’s done good work for the rule of law, and obviously continues to do so.
Do you think your op-ed will result in some pressure from constituents to change Specter’s viewpoint? I am impressed by the way you address the issues, so patiently, when I would want to scream and rant-though I know that’s not what’s needed.
I’m not so optimistic about Specter, either, but I hope you’re right, not me.
That we are still fighting these basic issues after the apparent defeat of the wingnuts is terribly depressing.
That’s an excellent idea for some sleuthing. Thanks so much for bringing it up!
Cornyn as a product of that Texas Judiciary system (former AG I believe), that also gave us “Judge” Alberto Gonzales.
Yes, yes!
And you may know that FDL worked very hard to prevent that happening. Another time when the MSM let us all down badly.
Oh yeah. High praise that. Ahem.
the same “his honor” now long-unemployed, unemployable and under indictment in Spain? ;P
tyvm, as they say :-)
Don’t get us Texas libruls started on the state system of election of Supreme Court judges. Grrr. (but yes Cornyn was AG before running for Senate)
Obama’s first string Supreme faves are centrists. No liberals to be seen. Like the stimulus package heavy with tax cuts gifts to Republicans installed at the starting gate – there was no room remaining for negotiating. He couldn’t negotiate for fewer tax cuts after he had given away the farm. Where would Obama go if his centrist picks are derided as extremist liberals?
The Brennan Center does fantastic work on election protection. Wanted to be certain folks knew about that. We had Michael Waldman on earlier this year to discuss that, but their work on it really is fantastic.
Well, yes. I have personally always been of the opinion that the real sin was committed in August of 2007 with the passage of the Protect America Act that was fraudulently and deceptively jammed down the throats of Congress before a recess. There was really no way to put the genie back in the bottle at that point. The only hope now is to deconstruct what occurred along the timeline from the start of the Bush Administration to the PAA, and then from the PAA to the FAA. But a critical part of that is the classified memos.
I’m from NE Ohio and the financial industry and republican “what commongood?” politicians have Kucciniched Obama just like they did to the young mayor. What would happen if President Obama through actions actually did uphold the law? What’s the worst that can happen if the previous administration was openly investigated for torture and graft, if the banks were allowed to fail…
As backgd: Let me say I am of the mind that Lincoln should never had declared war, just funded the underground railroad full steam. We just keep equivocating and don’t ever do anything completely for fear of immediate consequences.
Hope I haven’t missed this
One pragmatic question re: Koh. Even if he did have some wild, radical agenda to transmutate US and International law – just how is it that the Republicans are claiming that is a grounds for concern when he is nominated to serve as Gen Counsel at State? Since when does State direct the Dept of Justice’s US Constitutional law agenda?
OT question and you may have no info or not want to respond – early reports indicated that prior to the capture of KSM, the US was involved in a safe house raid where, among others, KSM’s wife and very young children (maybe 5 and 7 or 6 and 8?)were taken. Suskind refers to this as well in one of his books. I have never seen any reference to, or any pleadings, in the nature of habeas petitions or suits to require disclosure of info regarding these children. Any insight?
I do wonder who the next coming of Dan Burton’s tactical idiocy will be in either the House or the Senate? Because my memory of the “Socks the Cat Christmas Card List Investigation” is still quite fresh. We should all keep in mind that there is no nit too small to pick if it gets you media notice.
Tejanarusa – I’m so glad to hear I came across as “patient,” because I really do believe what’s happening to Johnsen and Koh is outrageous. I actually worked with Johnsen when I was counsel to Senator Feingold, and the notion that she is some kind of foaming-at-the-mouth, “intemperate” liberal (to use Cornyn’s word) is just insanity to anyone who has worked with her. We were working on a bill to require OLC to inform Congress about certain opinions, and she was extremely solicitous of the prerogatives and privileges of the executive branch — while still understanding that the rule of law requires that Congress be informed when OLC issues certain kinds of rulings. Brad Berenson, a former counsel to President George W. Bush, worked with us on the legislation too, and he ended up submitting a letter supporting her nomination. That’s how “radical” Johnsen is.
I thought Carol Lam was mentioned as possible nominee.
That’s exactly the problem. Since they’re going to be called that anyway, why not pick one? No further to the left than Scalia or Thomas are to the right, of course.
I haven’t seen President Obama actually talk about his potential nominees in name or inference, other than very vague discussions of policy during the campaign. I’ve seen a LOT of people speculating on who they might or might not be, but I have found — frequently — that such speculation generally eminates from people who want to see themselves speculated about within the Beltway.
I don’t take any such speculation as useful or accurate unless I (a) know the exact source, (b) their motive and (c) their record of accuracy. Otherwise, I take anything I hear with a huge grain of salt. It’s safer that way.
bmaz, you’re right that the Protect America Act was basically forced through Congress… but Congress can’t claim the same excuse with the FISA Amendments Act, which left most of the PAA intact even though Congress had plenty of time to consider it. That’s what really sticks in my craw.
Yours, mine and a bazillion other people here, too. Along with the MCA.
Another Q – there have been multiple reports that the FISCt Chief Judges, first Lamberth, then Kollar-Kotelly, upon being briefed about the surveillance program each expressed concern that the program was unconstitutional and each required special procedures to try to keep their courts from being contaminated. Something else I have never seen is any kind of inquiry into whether or not that info was made available to the telecoms, President, President’s counsel, OLC, AG etc. I’m sure vis a vis the AG it pretty much had to have been communicated. If those interactions with FISCt occured surely the lawyers involved had a professional duty to pass on the court’s response to the decision makers and just how do you claim “good faith” when you’ve been informed (esp by the time Kollar-Kotelly took the same position) by two separate FISCt chief judges briefed on the program that they feel it is unconstitutional? Add in the later determination on the merits by Judge Diggs-Taylor (which the 6th only struck on standing) and sure after the first FISCt chief judge’s input, or the second FISCt chief judge’s input, or the DIst Ct Judge ruling on the merits – at some point you have some duties to revisit those damn memos don’t you – to at least disclose to your clients if nothing else?
I’ve been struck over and over by the lack of any real “facts” sections in the classified memos. Not redacted facts, but ommissionof the kids of facts review that any kind of normal legal writing would require, particularly for a reliance opinion.
btw, just as a reminder: folks who weren’t here this morning, please take some time to call your Senators today and tell them that they should put the nation’s interest and the rule of law ahead of tactics and showboating.
Thanks!
Welcome!
Now that the President has returned from his excellent European adventure, will we see some arm-twisting or jawboning on these nominations from the top of the Administration? And what happened to Biden’s proposed role as Senate Enforcer?
Thanks for chatting today!
Mary, your question about Koh gets at an important point… I think the real concern of Koh’s opponents is not that international law will be used to trump U.S. law; it’s that international law will be used in cases where U.S. law would not be used, either because the President claims the right to ignore it or because the executive branch refuses to enforce it. It’s much harder to ignore and flout the law when there are international enforcement mechanisms that are not under the executive branch’s exclusive control. I think that’s where a lot of the opposition to international law comes from.
That’s good. When Ginsberg’s illness was news, I had googled Obama Supreme picks or similar and got a few lists of names. Did some Wiki on a few predominant names and found the centrism.
Thanks for your input and hard work. If you still have contact with Feingold or his office, pass on huge regards for the work he has done (I’m always disappointed to not see him have more face time on the news shows bc I think he is so effective).
I’m just a Kentucky girl and we play hardball here, so my only suggestions re: Johnsen are probably not worth pursuing but fwiw -
Obama isn’t wanting to cede any of the grabs Bush made, so he might want to revisit the issue of how long Bradbury served (in violation of statute or not) as acting and consider that option.
More to the point, hardball would be to say fine, I’ll withdraw her as OLC nominee and appoint her as Special Prosecutor to investigate torture instead.
Neither will happen, so that leaves my well dry.
Let me recommend Battle Cry of Freedom if you really feel that way. Lincoln didn’t seek war, it was thrust upon him.
Dang. When Republicans “win” they get a pony, a sports car, and a pair of hookers. When Dems win, they get a savings bond. I dislike this for many reasons.
Mary, That’s brilliant. I love your astute observations and pointed questions.
63 – I also wondered if it had impact and import bc of the role of Sec of State under our domestic applications re: the Torture Conventions Act, to obtain assurances etc.
For that matter, there might be some reasons why Obama’s admin might like NOT having Koh while they try to shuffle out various GITMO detainees back to places like Yemen and Saudi Arabia and Morocco and … Not having Koh in as Clinton’s advisor through that point might be a mutually beneficial aspect for the Republicans and Obama administration until he makes those arrangement – not that I would support that.
I never have really heard much about the extent, if any, of Powell’s involvement in obtaining assurances of non-torture for Arar, or Binyam Mohamed, or al-Libi etc.
I just realized that someone else had a better way of saying what I was trying to get across in the third-to-last paragraph of my post:
“[W]e must regain our ability to feel outrage whenever our government acts lawlessly and devises bogus constitutional arguments for outlandishly expansive presidential power. Otherwise, our own deep cynicism, about the possibility for a President andpresidential lawyers to respect legal constraints, itself will threaten the rule of law — and not just for the remaining nine months of this administration, but for years and administrations to come.”
The person who said that… Dawn Johnsen.
If I remember Jane Mayer’s reporting on that cut-outs with that correctly, I believe State was cut out of that altogether along with the JAGs and a lot of DOJ. I think that was the Addington/Feith/Haynes/and company group pulling those strings. But I’m reaching way back to when I read the book — and there has been a lot of water going past since then — so doublecheck me on that.
Excellent stuff — and why there is so much of a fight to keep her from being confirmed for OLC, I think.
Liza, could you talk for a moment about the position that Dawn would be assuming at OLC were she confirmed? Most folks here are familiar with OLC, but I’d like a little background on what it is and what it does within government — and why having Dawn there at this moment is so crucial — if you can?
71 – I just don’t know, esp for Arar who was taken on US soil and whose shipment to torture was directly signed off on by Larry Thompson – so he was shipped by and through DOJ to the torture – I don’t know you you get around our domestic law requiring some kind of involvement of Powell’s office in getting assurances for that and I don’t know why he’s never been asked much publically about that (or Rice for that matter – although she did get a few driblets of questions).
Sure, I’d be happy to. OLC issues formal, written interpretations of the law (including statutes, regulations, treaties, the Constitution, etc.). Many people know that, but fewer know that these opinions are binding on the entire executive branch, in exactly the same way a court’s ruling would be. Because these opinions often address matters that never get to the courts, the OLC opinion becomes the final word on what the law is. Also, the Justice Department has taken the position that a person can’t be prosecuted if he/she relied on an OLC opinion, even if a court later determines that the conduct in question is illegal. So, in effect, OLC has the power to effectively confer immunity for violations of the law. Now you see why it’s so important to have a responsible person who respects the rule of law in that position!
It’s sometimes astonishing to me how few people get this – that if we don’t have a specific legal method for declaring who our enemies are, then the government can declare anyone an enemy.
Do our politicians not get this, either, or are they just reflecting the ignorance of their constituents?
That was one of the points that Barton Gellman made so well in his book, Angler — that placement of Yoo, Bradbury and others at OLC was deliberately done so that a particular view of the law was in place in terms of a unilateral executive.
Turning that around is not going to be easy, which is one of the reasons I’m so in favor of someone as blunt, plain-spoken and open about governmental action as Dawn is getting that spot.
Sadly, you’re right. I’m not sure what the first suggestion nets us, but the special prosecutor idea is terrific. And it will never be done by Obama.
My term of preference is ‘willfully obtuse’.
They get it… they just want to avoid the legal constraints. Plain and simple.
Liza, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. No rush, but I wanted to be sure to get a thanks in before you had to go.
Discussions like this are really invaluable — just like the work that you all do at the Brennan Center in promoting the rule of law. Wish more people were doing it, frankly.
And please, come back any time — we’d love to have you!
It’s easier to not have to follow the law if you pretend that you don’t have to, isn’t it? Then you can do as you please when you want and pretend to like accountability when it isn’t you that needs to follow it.
Beltway hypocrisy is a bit too much of a sport for my taste, but I’m an old-fashioned “rule of law applies to everyone” kinda gal.
Thanks, Christy — and thanks, everyone, for being so welcoming and for your thought-provoking posts. It gives me hope for the rule of law that you’re all out there!
What Christy says.
There are many of us out here who do pay attention to things between elections and who do care about laws and civil rights and things.
Thank you.
I have to run, but look forward to seeing all of you back on this forum soon.
If that’s true, and I suspect it is, then the obvious inference is that they will have to be forced to follow the law. I don’t see any way of doing that, short of a large part of America insisting that this happen.
Thank you very much for a wonderful chat today, Liza and Christy and commenters all.
I know the book…Yes, going to war is the trap/solution that that we get pushed into… blindfolded with the flag. It paralyzes progressive movementand placates us because war creates opportunities for good (and bad) heros, the stuff of artificial history.
Which brings me to Ralph Nader, last night at Oberlin he repeated his Afghan solution: send in the civilization builders (my words) the agriculture workers, road, dam, house & school builders and remove the soldiers! This administration’s drones are no different than the obstructionism of the Sen Canton, Cornyn & Boehner or the screams of Limbaugh.
What would happen if soldiers would come home, corrupt banks fail, and criminals called to account?
Lets talk about the Justice Department for a second leaving out us vs. them. I’m beginning to think they want it that way, they being politians generally. It makes for good media too, like a football game. Obama’s Justice Department has released its opinion and policy on The Warantless Wiretaps. They have decided that no court in the land or citizen can take them to court to learn anything about it and exactly what has occurred in the last 8 years as well as the future. FISA is now gone. There will be no investigation of what they are doing, who is doing it, and what companies are involved in eavesdropping on American citizens. That was the evil Cheney and Bush spying on Americans, remember? President Obama’s Justice Department has ruled that the program will continue, maybe expand and you or I can do nothing about it. This is against everything we were led to believe was going to change when a Democrat finally made it in office. Undoing the loss of civil rights perpetuated by the Bush Administration. What the hell is going on? We need to get off these petty fights they are involving us in and get the big picture. They like that we fight each other as they do their will, both parties.
Thanks for dropping by and chatting.
If Obama want unitary power than let him use it: to bring Cheney, Yoo, Addington…to justice;
to rewrite any presidential signing statement;
……………….etc.
I agree
The Right fusses about precise application of the law–and of international law and treaty obligations in particular–because the American Right’s power rests so entirely on blurring and exploiting the boundary between legal and illegal. Laws make extralegal activity both riskier and more advantageous, if you can get away with it. Think smuggling and piracy. Now, three decades of increasingly cozy relationships with government and consequent lax enforcement have crated huge grey areas in the law, where dubious profits can be maximized with little risk. The Right can’t give that up.
Consider the recent financial crisis, extraordinary rendition, domestic spying, starting a war in Iraq, and the Contra proxy war back in the ’80s. All of these involved ducking back and forth across boundaries and arguing that this or that law did or did not apply, depending on what the Right needed at the time. The aim was always to have oneself and ones profits protected by law and one’s opponents constrained by it, while remaining free to act lawlessly oneself.
Now US banks have hundreds of accounts in hundreds of shady banks in dozens of shady, no-tell countries so that they can enjoy the legal protections granted wealth while observing none of the legal restrictions and obligations that ensure that others are dealt with fairly.
In Guantanamo and Navy ships at sea, the former administration claimed to have found a sweet spot near but outside the law, American for purposes of government power but not American when it comes to civil rights and court oversight.
Several previous administrations bypass Congress’s power of the purse by getting Saudi Arabia and other foreign powers to pay into secret, CIA-controlled offshore accounts for mercenary wars.
On as less global scale, consider Rush Limbaugh. With his contacts, clever lawyers, and consequent ability to play safely at the edge, he gets away with drug abuse and secretive vacations in places notorious for child prostitution. He can even get credit with his listeners for laughing and winking at the rubes that don’t know how to game the system the way he does.
Now this happy sate of affairs is threatened. Good lawyers have an unpleasant tendency to draw the lines sharply, to define terms, to identify or set precedents, and to insist on consistent interpretations of the rules. We call this litigation, something the Right has exerted itself mightily to squelch. Litigation does not allow for the vast grey areas that Right-wing power now depends upon. Ms. Johnsen and Mr. Koh CAN’T be allowed to take office, until and unless they agree to bend to the Yoo/Addington Law of Blur and Convenience.
I had no idea we had such a crazy system. Just think if the House or Senate were held up by a parliamentarian whose official statements were binding.
Is there some way for a President to appeal the OLC decisions?