the pope of hope is a fraud

Z

Violations must be punished indeed.

Thank you for this, Petrr.
Feet to the fire and all that.
I, for one, am sick and tired of nothing but pretty words from this WH.
There are also rules about the use of State Secrets that this admin is ignoring, but I guess that goes with the torture issue.
Plus ca change like I don’t believe!

FunnyDiva

I don’t think there is anything that will convince the admin to go after shrubco – its what Obama’s said all along, and I think he sincerely believes that not pursuing them for their crimes is in the best interests of the country. But I also don’t think they’d do much to stop a prosecution if somebody else were to do it.

Great catch Peterr. We need to remind Obama of his own words every single day.

And we must pay attention to what he does, not what he says.

If we don’t look back then it’s like NK never tested a rocket, illegal Iraq war never happened and we really didn’t promise the banksters 12 or more trillions.

All that and nobody stole an election and who said they were going to get a dog and I could say something about the first lady’s something, but I won’t.

Obama’s just another power figure who sez do what I say, not what I do. A venerable history. Particularly relevant among leaders of powerful countries. Should we be surprised?

Keeping score here…

Rules must be binding.

Violations must be punished.

Words must mean something.

North Korea must suffer UN Security Council slapdown — says USA

Iran runs risk of being attacked over atomic issues — says USA,Israel

Israel has atomic weapons and they are illegally held — known by USA

Israel has ignored many UN resolutions,shown UN contempt — known by USA

Israel undertook war crimes conduct in Gaza in Jan.2009 — known by USA

Israel has not been condemned by USA for Gazan war crimes — USA has not

Israel is threatening to attack Iran on unilateral terms — says Israel
known by USA
helped by USA?

Israel Occupation of Arab Palestine in violation of treaties? — yes

Israel land grabs,refugee creation,settlement activity illegal? — yes

Iraq was invaded on false pretense,fact abuses by USA? — yes

Is USA trying to impose long stay on Iraq? — yes Why? oil,USA hegemon

Would USA tolerate this conduct from Russia in Georgia? — no,did not.

In last ten years which country and people have attacked another country and people on dubious grounds with brutal means fully employed?

Iran?– no

USA? — yes

North Korea? — no

Israel? — yes

Which countries listed above are now known to have done torture? All.

President Obama — do you stand by these words for Israel and USA?

Rules must be binding.Violations must be punished. Words must mean something.

Yes or No?

Thanks for the putting it together in simple declarative sentences, words of one syllable.

So Obama’s decided to act like Bush regarding North Korea? So far, North Korea’s big attempts at acting all grown up and scary have been failures. First, their nuclear detonation fizzled and now their big ballistic missile acted more like a rock than a rocket.

North Korea is blustering much like Cuba did under Castro. The more we talk tough to them, the more they’ll act like this. It’d be much smarter foreign policy to largely ignore what North Korea is doing, particularly since they’re so bad at it and it’s just draining the meager resources the country has. For a comparison, the more Reagan talked tough towards Libya the more destructive Libya’s behavior became. Once we decided to ignore Gaddafi, it took the wind out of his sails. And look where Libya is now.

Talking the talk takes talent, but it ain’t walking the walk.

Obama promoting “psuedo” progressivism. The status quo is toxic and can not be tweaked. It can’t be band-aided with same cronies promising they will play nice, especially with money and a pass. Amoral behavior brought us here. Has got to be explored. There has got to be accountability.

Accountability coma prevails in U.S.

i am very angry with obama. since fisa his words haven’t meant anything to me, to the point that i don’t listen to or read what he says. and now watching him actively accelerate the destruction of economy for the benefit of some wall street types really makes waaaay worse.

i remember watching a speech of his live on tv during the campaign and crying, thinking what if he really did do all that, how beautiful that would be for our country. and also thinking, you’d better not betray us, mf. and i was crying for what could be and for my anger about the potential betrayal.

and then came fisa and here we are.

Most Americans are blissfully oblivious to U.S. leaders’ hypocrisy, residents of other nations are not. If Obama was going to issue such a statement, he’d have been well advised to wait until he got home.

Personal OT – going back to a thread a while ago…last week I bought a book called Uppity Women of Medieval Times — 200 daring damsels who dazzled the Dark Ages and rocked the Renaissance!
Thought it might make you smile. :)

Here we are. Whoppee.
Everywhere you go…there you are.
(Love your comments, GW.)

Does it include Pope Joan? It should be pointed out that accounts of her reign are of questionable authenticity but an intriguing tale nonetheless.

Think it’s not talking vs. not talking. Think it’s more subtle, and, of course, meaning very little splash for any given attempt.

DPRK uses brinksmanship as their foreign policy technique. So if you ignore them, they’ll escalate. (I’m not well informed on this issue, so those who are more expert correct me.) If you excoriate them, they’ll escalate. (Who cares if they escalate, they’re so pipsqueak, but that’s another story.) But if you engage them, nothing will happen for a long long time, but then, the risk of blowback is minimized. But as for making a splash and garnaring political capital in the short run, who could argue.

Pols’ compensation (votes and campaign contributions) works the same way corp CEO compensation works. It’s all short run reward. Not productive for solving real problems.

60 Minutes had a piece on torture in Iran. The reporter never noted that many of the techniques were also used in Guantanimo.

The story also had that feel of the ramp-up of propaganda to make the Iranians seem more inhuman and more easy to bomb.

-G

Yes, it does. Just checked the index. Not there yet, but still, she’s in the book.
As well as “nun turned top-gun Catalina de Erauso, who dueled, drank, and cross-dressed her way through Spain and South America”.

Obama’s just another power figure who sez do what I say, not what I do.

obama is more generous than that – he gives his friends and even rivals a pass from the rules too.

rules is only for little people who don’t have the moral compass to behave unless they are punished. /s

The more I see how obama is involved with enriching wall st., the less I like him. He certainly is better spoken than most people, but all the “change” meant was changing from repugs to dims. Now that the dims hold the majority of seats in Congress and the WH, the repug view has become more the standard for governing. The people at large don’t want most of what is going on in giving away all that money without any real controls, but it is cheaper for wall st. to pay off a few well placed congresscritters than to do their jobs in taking care of their companies. We can’t allow the continued consolidation of these companies so that they are “too big to fail.” All that does is hurt us.

thanks, sweetie :)

I like a “pass” every now and then, ’cause I’m not Jesus. But, I’m not keen on punishment. Ouch.

missiles can be used to launch satellites too. not only weapons.

Sounds like a good read. I tried to get at the same subject thru an art book I picked up a couple of years ago: Women Who Ruled, which is about the Baroque queens and regents who were powerful then. Turns out to have been a dud. Other than the fabulous portraits, was filled with academic gobbeldygook.

I’m interested not in the rarity who achieve (by birth, or marriage, or motherhood for women in the Baroque era), but in why the system is not now a meritocracy. My only hypothesis is that the rulers, men, don’t want to give up power to “the other.”

Let me know if your book gives more insight.

You have mail.

Brinksmanship is the only card in DPRK’s hand and all the other players at the table know it and YET, they play it so well. They appear to know exactly how hard they can push without starting a war and they do occasionally exact concessions from the power players. Seems like they could derive greater benefit from genuine diplomacy but they would have to let their guard down. IOW, not going to happen anytime soon.

I hope Geithner and Summers frame the words,

“Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something.”

I hope the rules required of GM are now required of the banksters. No double standards.

Liz Warren’s testimony last week did not reflect what Geithner is telling us. Her report is out this week. Somebody needs to be punished.

No double standards on transparency. No mark-to-mirage assets with taxpayers money.

If Bush, Cheney, and cohorts violated laws, let them be punished.

i’m all for mercy too.

hey i’ve got an idea, how about a global day of forgiveness and mercy?

all crimes – pardoned. open the prison doors.
all grievances between people, nations, etc – put aside to begin anew.
all debts – forgiven.

justice for all or mercy for all.

none of this playing favorites – it offends my kindergarden sensibilities of fairness. *g*

Seems like they could derive greater benefit from genuine diplomacy

What benefit would diplomacy achieve for Kim Jong Il? He’s already a god in his country.

Sounds like a fun read. I just read Catalina’s wiki, the phrase “tough as nails” comes to mind.

DIGG IS OPEN

Definitely. Let’s look forward! *g* times 2.

selise: just got your response while I was refilling my glass. Will be back to you.

Will do. I’ll send you a copy of the book I write on my findings from this book. Ha.
We probably already know, right?
Can you spell, It Sucks?

What benefit would diplomacy achieve for Kim Jong Il? He’s already a god in his country.

For starters, he could have a pizza delivered in less than ten years.

Politics is all about compromise. You guys don’t like Obama and Biden? Consider the alternative, McCain and Palin. By all means hold his feet to the fire, but all this petty bickering only serves to marginalize our concerns about getting justice to the Bush administration. How about some constructive ideas about how to make prosecution politically possible? Because it clearly isn’t right now. I say we start with the Congress, they need to reassert their primacy as one of the three equal branches.

I believe President Obama is playing the hand he was dealt as best he can.

no rush. planning on signing off soon anyway.

LOL. I didn’t say KJI was a competent leader, only one that was regarded as a god in his own bubble. If I were he, I’d have ordered someone to set up a pizzaria a lot sooner.

Agree that we need to keep intense pressure on Obama and contrast every instance that the words don’t match the actions. So if he wants to tout his administration as being the most interactive and the most transparent, then use the vehicles he has set up and deluge the .gov site with concrete evidence of lying, and deliver it in blunt language.

I still do not read this as a lost cause. Although we have plenty to be pissed off about, this can be turned around, IMO. I think FDR’s “…then make me do it” challenge to his constituency would be just as successful 75 years later with this president.

Call me Pollyanna, but I still think he wants to be great. I also think the secret weapon in our favor is Michelle Obama. Just don’t think she is an accomplice in the masters of the universe brigade. And I don’t think she’ll let her husband be one either.

I believe President Obama is playing the hand he was dealt as best he can.

Disagree. He is using the worst possible team to deal with the economic crisis. He is abrogating his responsibility for dealing with war crimes. If Hugh were here, he’d have a dozen other examples.

Better than W is way too low a bar given the circumstances the U.S. (and world) faces.

I still think he wants to be great

And he thinks he can do it by making good speeches rather than doing great deeds. It’s called hubris.

Measuring Obama against McCain is a very low bar.

I don’t like torture. I don’t like presidents ignoring the constitution. As for pressuring Congress, if Obama had come out and said “rules must be binding and violations must be punished” in his address to Congress, that certainly would have made prosecution more politically possible. He had a choice to step up on these things, and he bailed. Repeatedly.

I don’t see either torture or the constitution as something petty, and the way Obama is playing his hand on this is sad at best. But YMMV . . .

Radical. Systemic justice.
Free Hall Passes For Everyone!
Sounds like a plan. Oh, yeah. Someone already came up with it, but then the mortals messed that idea up.

Thank you for this Peterr!!!

Exact, accurate and RIGHT ON the mark!

Now, how do we get this message/article to Obi???

It’s overdue, the time for action RE Bu$hCo is now PAST!!!!!!!

BRAVO eCAHN!
and Here Here!!!

WRT torture, everyone should be aware the U.S. has frequently tortured. The slightest provocation is sufficient. Legacy of Ashes gives the CIA record, and a read on U.S. conquest of Philippines (Overthrow) is a pre-CIA example. To think that Obama would disgard a venerable U.S. institution is to be naive in the extreme.

thanks

I don’t think many walk into their new situation being great. It’s a process like anything else. I also mentioned off the top that he should be called on lies. The truth of his dwindling popularity numbers is now beginning to hit home. That is also a process. He’s not stupid and he is realizing already (IMO) that his treasury department can sink any goals he has in an instant. I think he’ll jettison Geithner before Fall (and hopefully Summers too.)

If he’s just the same old that you think he is, I’m in. But I don’t believe so, not at this point.

I agree whole heartedly that it is a process. And a process can be judged at each step along the way. Which is why Obama’s economic team is so dispositive. It would not be difficult for a great prez to figure out that the economic crisis cannot be solved by those who created it. It’s not as though the internet doesn’t exist. It’s not as though the alternative voices do not have a forum. For a “high-tech” prez, he is singularly stubborn about dismissing the alternative voices.

I think he’ll jettison Geithner before Fall (and hopefully Summers too.)

Evidence?

I could not agree with you more. His economic team is a disaster. He is using all his capital up and we may not end up with any health reform or any other issue which is dear to us.

But low-information Obama-ites are FEROCIOUS I am finding in defensiveness when I try to point out Obama’s “pragamatic” betrayals and lapses. “Give him more time, for God’s sake” comes up a lot.

We all want him to “do the right thing” but he seems so drinking the “status quo” Wall St. kool-aid. The Chicago and beltway boys’ club kool-aid! He has consistently cold-shouldered the ideology of the true left.

And the non-prioritizing media reports on the stupid stuff and lets important omissions get a big pass.

Again, it;s obvious to all that he is not a great president 70 days into his term. I was not happy with his economic team either, I wanted Stiglitz named. I thought he would stand up to the Rubin machine better than anyone else. I wanted Bair too. I never hid my personal disappointment. I don’t see this as permanent. I believe we’re all pissed off by the events lived kand the rights lost in the past 8 years and people are going to feel our fury, I don’t apologize for that,

I will also be standing in front of the SF Fed building at 11 am next Saturday, hopefully with hundreds (or thousands) of others who also don’t believe that Summers and Geithner are on our sides. My point is that it is this kind of demonstration that, if executed well, can have the desired effect.

If Obama is Bush III, then you’re right -it won’t mean shit. But, if he wants 2 terms and to get anything done, I can’t believe he’s dumb enough not to figure out that jhe’ll be looking at a disastrous presidency and his place alongside Bush in the history books.

I have no evidence, hence “I think…”

Using Markers in International Relations

This principled stand for abiding by rules selectively where it applies to other countries, but putting prior administration’s criminal actions smacks of wildly waving weapons of mass distraction.

Like TARP fund diversion to executive bonuses, Obama plays the part of a poker player who sits down at the table. Only he doesn’t realize that 1) he’s inherited a losing hand from the previous player, and 2) all of the other players and the internet linked audience know it.

For such a good player, he seems inexplicably wedded to justifying & trying to recover the lost bets of the last person who occupied his seat.

Of course, when you’re using markers to borrow your stake in the game from the same loan sharks who own that seat at the table, it all makes perfect sense.

I don’t know why you guys think Obama’s economic team is a “disaster”. It’s doing precisely what it was supposed to. And he’s not sacking Geithner just because a few lefties don’t like him. Obama doesn’t care a less what you like. Most “liberals” bought the bullshit and you’ll line up for it again in four years. He knows that he doesn’t actually have to do anything to win you over.

I did not have very high expectations of Obama who, after all, campaigned as a right-leaning centrist, but this speech was quite embarrassing. Nevertheless, it was a Hobson’s choice between him and Mr. Ratfuck of Arizona (or no fixed abode). Beam me up Scotty!

No other ‘State’ (not non-state gangs/groups) except America could ever be morally deprived or rogue enough to use Nukes against any people. We Indians have just one enemy historically – Pakistan but never could we use our atom bombs on even such an old and bitter enemy. We just won’t go that far! Strictly speaking, using and defending against nukes is only an all American fantasy. The rest of the world prefers to disarm and bury their Nukes in some desert. So making the world nuclear weapons free is a really good idea by Obama. But there’s a problem “America will not disarm till the rest of the world disarms”!! Well considering that America is the only country that is ever likely to be using the nukes again, nobody else will disarm – just for the sake of self defense. So making the world nuke free is never goin to happen.

So, you’re insinuating that President Obama is torturing, illegally spying on Americans right now? Wow. Any evidence of this?

LOL. how about punish the violations he’s already aware of.

obama’s statement is laughable, not because he should know better, but because he does know better, and nonetheless continues to serve as a firewall against prosecutions for war criminals.