![]()
[Welcome author, Richard H. Thaler, and host, Mark A. R. Kleiman, author, bloggger, Professor of Public Policy at the UCLA School of Public Affairs - bevw]
Nudge, by Richard Thaler (today’s guest) and Cass Sunstein, is an exposition of the set of ideas its authors call “Libertarian Paternalism.” At first blush this might seem as oxymoronic a combination as “dry water,” and the goal of the book to show how the phrase might make sense.
Libertarianism holds that it is wrong to interfere with choices made by a competent adult unless those choices threaten to damage someone else (and not always then). This follows from two claims, one factual and the other moral. It is claimed as a fact that every competent person is the best judge of what is likely to conduce to his or her own well-being, or at least better than any actual agency wielding coercive power. And it is claimed as a principle that autonomy is, of right, absolute with respect to what John Stuart Mill called “self-regarding actions. To overrule someone’s choices with respect to self-regarding action is, on this account, both disrespectful and damaging.
Paternalism, by contrast, holds that it is possible, and sometimes justifiable, to interfere with someone’s choices for that person’s own benefit.
To reconcile these positions, Thaler and Sunstein offer evidence from behavioral economics to show that under many circumstances personal choices do not reflect a fixed set of considered judgments about what is desirable and what is advantageous. Instead, choices can be, and in fact often are, “nudged” by a variety of features relating to the choice situation rather than only the outcome set.
Since, the authors argue, the choices people make are demonstrably sensitive to the way the choices are posed, there is nothing autonomy-threatening about designing the choice situation – influencing what Thaler and Sunstein call the “choice architecture” – in ways that improve the results of choice as evaluated by the person choosing. Surely someone is not damaged by being protected from making a choice he would come to regret, as in Mill’s own example of tackling someone to keep him from walking across a bridge that he does not know will collapse under his weight.
What keeps the paternalism libertarian, in their view, is giving the subject the choice to override the “nudge” and act as he or she prefers to act.
The book provides a number of important and – to me at least – completely convincing examples, including the retirement-savings plan called “Save More Tomorrow,” which brings people’s actual choices about retirement savings closer to the choices which they report that they imagine to be optimal. Save More Tomorrow does so by encouraging people to decide now about contributions to be made later, after an increase in salary, so that their paychecks do not go down when the contribution goes up. The fact that very few Save More Tomorrow participants take advantage of the option to un-do their previous choices when the time arrives to actually contribute more suggests that the plan helps people enact their desires rather than frustrating those desires.
Other examples involve changing “default” settings on choice plans: for example, instead of leaving new employees unenrolled in any retirement savings plan until they affirmatively sign up (which often involves a dauntingly complicated set of choices) a company could automatically enroll each new hire at some pre-chosen contribution level and allocation across asset classes, while telling them that they can change the level or the allocation, or opt out of the plan entirely, simply by filling out the sort of form that otherwise would have been required to enroll.
Thaler and Sustein also give examples of allowing people the option of prospectively limiting their own choices, for example by denying themselves access to casinos if they want to control their own gambling habits. (They do not discuss offering a stronger nudge by requiring everyone entering a casino to choose a loss limit for the day.)
When it comes to simple nudges to help people decide in their own interest as they understand it, it seems to me that Thaler and Sunstein are on firm factual and logical ground. In some of the cases involving strategic interaction – for example, “allowing” patients to waive malpractice claims in return for lower medical fees – I’m more skeptical, perhaps because I’m less libertarian. Is the doctor-patient interaction sufficiently evenly balanced to ensure that the patient is choosing in his own interest rather than being strong-armed? The discussion of getting the state out of the business of defining "marriage" reaches the same conclusion I reach on that question, but the argument seems to assume away the importance of custom; there are surely gains from the transformation of marriage from a near-indissoluble bond to a contract terminable more or less at the whim of either party, but surely there are losses as well, including losses to the less economically secure spouse and to the children. Moreover, it is simply not the case as a matter of fact that if Mr. and Mrs. X get divorced that decision has no impact on the marriage of Mr. and Mrs. Y.
But those are questions around the edges. The central ideas of Nudge deserve to be more widely known, and the book is a highly useful effort in that direction: not least because it is well-written and readable. The authors manage to wear their very considerable learning lightly.
[As a reminder, please take off-topic discussions to the previous thread. -bevw]



118 Comments












Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Richard, Welcome to the Lake.
Mark, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Welcome to the Lake. I just purchased the book, today, but I’m looking forward to the discussion.
Thanks to Mark for a great opening statement and for the kind words about the book. Let me quickly respond to the mild complaints he has about medical malpractice and marriage.
On the former the key fact to know is that patients are not allowed to waive their right to sue. We believe that patients should have this right, and both of us would, if we could, buy our health insurance that way. We think that the right to sue is essentially a lottery ticket with odds that are not much better than state lotteries, that is, lousy. First of all, the lawyers get a third or more of the settlements, and second, whether you win has little to do with whether the doctor or hospital screwed up. There is not much evidence that the threat of malpractice suits improves care as opposed to encouraging expensive, defensive medicine. Of course we don’t think that anyone should be required to waive this right, but we don’t think anyone should be required to buy it either.
On marriage Mark says, correctly, “there are surely gains from the transformation of marriage from a near-indissoluble bond to a contract terminable more or less at the whim of either party, but surely there are losses as well, including losses to the less economically secure spouse and to the children.” This is correct but has nothing to do with our proposal since we do not comment on whether divorce should be made easier or harder (an interesting question for sure). What we suggest is simply that the government should get out of the marriage business and just issue civil unions or domestic partnerships. Marriages, per se, would be granted only by private groups such as religious organizations. These groups we be free to decide who they would marry, so no group would be required to marry gay couples, and states would not be bestowing the title “married” to any couples, so would not be discriminating against same-sex couples by only allowing marriage for couples of one man and one woman.
Would requiring hand gun owners to purchase insurance fall broadly under your definition of “nudge?”
I’m in favor of that approach btw.
It’s odd for a strange to be the nominal “host;” I guess this is what it must feel like to be the “guest host” on a TV game show. But it’s quite an honor to appear with Richard Thaler, one of my intellectual heroes.
I just bought the book and am looking forward to reading it. Do you see any connection between your work and that of Daniel Gilbert’s “Stumbling on Happiness” where Gilbert feels that we are poor predictors as to what will make us happy. If we “nudge”, how do we know that we are not making the same error as Gilbert suggests?
tedkurtz
Interesting way of phrasing that. Are you suggesting that there is solid evidence that the threat of malpractice suites encourages defensive medicine? Or that there is no evidence on either count?
Welcome.
Interesting ideas. If I’m understanding correctly, then higher tobacco taxes are a nudge to decrease consumption of tobacco?
Interesting compromise on gun control. John Tierney of the NYT has an interesting comparable suggestion on motor cycle helmuts. Those who want to ride without a helmut would have to buy a special license and have proof of health insurance. A reader also suggested they they have to agree to be an organ donor!
Welcome to FDL this afternoon Richard and Mark.
As a technical note: There is a Reply button in the lower right hand of each comment. When you are replying to a specific comment, you can press the Reply and it will automatically ID the comment and commenter being replied to. (Makes it easier for us lurkers to follow along the conversation)
well, there are certainly claims that malpractice encourages defensive medicine but I am not an expert on that literature.
Hello, Mark and Richard! Welcome to the Lake!
A quick question: Mark, it would seem that “nudging” is all about using gentle prodding to achieve results. However, there would seem to be times when more than a nudge is required. The New Deal, for instance, was not a nudge but a massive transformation. It gave us things like Social Security, a move that single-handedly lifted America’s elderly out of poverty and which is, contrary to privatizer propaganda, not in dire danger from anyone but the privatizers themselves.
I believe that solution has also been offered for those who prefer to not wear seatbelts.
Yes, Dan is a good friend and his book is highly related. If people don’t know how to make themselves happy, as Dan suggests, then they might be helped by a nudge.
On the medical-malpractice issue, the classical account has it that there are three reasons to allow lawsuits for negligent torts: to provide an incentive for care, to assure that the loss falls on the person who caused it and not on an innocent victim, and as a kind of insurance.
Richard is surely right to say that medical malpractice is a badly messed-up system, since the attribution of negligence is imperfect at best, it’s not clear that the doctor who made a medical mistake is a wrongdoer in any morally relevant sense, and the overhead costs make tort suits a lousy insurance system.
But it’s also true that, under our generally messed-up health-care system, someone who requires long-term care as the result of a bad medical result is completely out of luck unless the malpractice system comes to his aid. I don’t think the comparison between having your nursing-home bills paid and winning the lottery is a very close comparison. So I’d be happy to replace tort suits with social insurance, but not to simply leave the victims naked.
As to the same-sex marriage case, I was trying to make a point by analogy: since we know that messing with divorce rules had large external costs, we can’t a priori know that changing the rules about same-sex marriage wouldn’t. Now, in fact I think the benefits would be overwhelming and the costs negligible. But that needs to be argued for. The general claim “Your marriage arrangements are none of anyone else’s business” doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny. So my objection is to the form of the argument, not the conclusion.
We don’t want to get too bogged down on the definition of a nudge, but certainly sin taxes are a good alternative to bans.
Really blew me away with that whole comment, which was excellent.
I’m not a 100% in support of the whole thing, but the cost savings are obvious.
This is a good series on the “divided loyalties” of some physicians.
Doctors face pressure to disclose all side pay
There are such discrpancies in knowledge between the average physician and the average patient, I have some reservations. In addition, the patient is usually under a lot of stress, while the physician is not.
Anyway, I’ll reserve final judgement, but I really appreciate you throwing it out there.
Not to get off track, but if anyone is interested in the issue of defensive medicine and the impact of litigation on health outcomes, I’d recommend The Medical Malpractice Myth by Tom Baker.
On to other things. Why paternalism? If our choices are influenced by the choice structure, and this is true if no one is consciously influencing the choice structure or someone is for private-oriented reasons, is it really paternalist to say that we are going to influence the choice structure consciously and defend what we do with public regarding reasons? That is, one might support this idea without supporting it when it shades into things that are more clearly paternalist.
One other thought on the gambling self ban. As a variation on Mark’s idea you could allow gamblers to commit themselves to only play at casinos that permit the gamblers to state a max loss in advance.
I agree. Often nudging is not enough, as the book acknowledges.
That’s why I’m not a libertarian, or even a libertarian paternalist. I think that there are situations where people (including me) need to be protected from their own predictably bad choices, from the pressure of custom (think of footbinding or its modern descedent, spike heels), or from private power that acts in what are technically non-coercive ways, like the boss who uses the threat of firing or the promise of promotion to demand sexual favors from a subordinate.
But where nudging works, I’m enthusiastic about using it. Autonomy is a great value, even though I don’t think it’s the highest value.
Welcome Richard, and thanks so much for being here today. Mark, good to have you here.
I’m interested in this comment that Mark made:
I have the same concern. How do you reconcile the power imbalance integral to such relationships?
I.e., we’re told that union workers can only make an “informed choice” about whether or not they want to have a labor union if they have sufficient information from their employers, and can only make that decision within the context of a “secret ballot” without fear of undue intimidation. And women can only make an “informed choice” about whether they want to terminate a pregnancy if they’ve seen an ultrasound, etc. etc.
But when it comes to giving up potential benefit, well that’s just your choice. If you want to consume toxic products that make someone very rich, without being fully aware of the potential consequences, the balance seems to come down on the side of “personal freedom.”
These conflicts always perplex me when confronting libertarian solutions, which always seem to give those with more power the ability to control the placement of that particular fulcrum.
Welcome Mark and Richard.
Why used the gendered “paternalism” in this context? To me, paternalism invokes a whole lot of mandated cultural choices. Nurture, on the other hand, describes the kind of light-handed guidance that this book seems to describe (though I haven’t read the book).
An important point in the book is that it is impossible to achieve a neutral choice architecture, any more than it is possible to design a neutral building. The person who designs the menu at a restaurant influences what people eat (holding constant what food the chef cooks). It is impossible to avoid nudging.
Welcome, Richard!
It strikes me that various corporate interests are well-acquainted with the idea of “nudging” and have used it to great effect. The laws on how companies can and cannot share information (internal use, selling mailing lists, etc.) have various opt-in and opt-out clauses, usually written for the benefit of the company, not the consumer — “We can do what we want with your information, unless you tell us otherwise.”
How would nudging work, if directed toward corporate behavior?
This is a critical question with any discussions of changes to the health care system in this country. Providing health care is one issue; deciding how to pay for it as a society is another. The incentives that drive providing care, for instance, run up against the incentives of a highly entrenched insurance industry.
So, back to my question: how would nudging work if directed toward corporate behavior?
The reviews of your book at Amazon are excellent and played a large role in my decision, next to the FDL imprimatur. FWIW, when I read the title, I thought I thought it was a self-help book.
I was very impressed with the idea of credit card companies disclosing late fees. That’s small and manageable and I think has terrific upside.
Yes, I’ve been persuaded to use “parentalism” in place of its gendered anagram. However, there’s a long literature using the older term. “Nurture,” it seems to me, implies services as well as restrictions. The question about parentalism is whether and when it’s justified to try to improve someone’s well-being by limiting his or her choices. One of the strong points of the book is its demonstration that freedom from constraint is not always the best, or even the most liberating, choice architecture; it’s often easier to make the right choice from a smaller menu.
We do not mean to suggest that nudging is the only tool in the policy maker’s tool cabinet. Our book is an attempt to see how much can be achieved without forcing anyone to do anything. But of course sometimes you have to shove. Fraud is against the law. Too bad it wasn’t enforced better in recent years.
we thought about it but decided that libertarian paternalism was confusing enough!
These are two central points that the book makes very clearly:
1. There are no neutral choice architectures.
2. Private choice architects often work against the interests of the chooser, so regulating choice architecture is justified as a protective measure.
Glad you like that idea. I have been doing more work on that and we think it has great potential.
Absolutely – which is why I was skittish of the term “paternalism,” which to me seems to sound like an intervention into a neutral (or natural) situation. Sunstein makes the same argument (everything is a choice, there is no natural state of affairs, and all choices must be defended by reasons) in The Partial Constitution, which I had in the back on my mind as I was writing that comment.
I may well be reading too much into the term.
Welcome to both of you. Seems like a great book, but the area where I need to improve my nudges (and disguise them!) is with my teenage son.
We can do a lot regulating corporate behavior through better disclosure. One example, by forcing banks and other investors to disclose more about their investments we can let other market participants help in the monitoring task that the government has found to be so difficult.
Yes.
I am vehemently anti-drug, but even I aggressively support the decriminalization of marijuana. Evidently everyone in Washington D.C. labors under the illusion that prohibition was a success.
As long as they don’t contain other crimes, I don’t see the point of mandatory jail time for most other drug offenses.
I have a tougher time with decriminalizing prostitution for those over eighteen, but I am not an absolutist on that.
Who has nudged you and what have they nudged you about and to what effect?
There is a huge problem with this book for me, after I managed to get through the first chapter. It is boring as hell. I just love these elite people trying to pretend they know anything at all about life among the masses.
Sorry, I think teen-age sons should be banned.:)
Well, I fervently believe in your right not to read any more of our book.
Is this the same neo-con Cass Sunstein who works for those corrupt corporate lobbyists at the AEI?
Why should corporations be allowed to poison us with their toxic plastics, high fructose mercury, and melamine. DEREGULATION HAS FAILED! Capitalism kills and Libertarians help the Capitalists in their never ending Class War.
Yay Boo.
Bullseye.
We had Dr. Galbraith here demanding that the public be allowed to audit the loan tapes of the banks we bailed out.
Keep in mind that we are endorsing only LIBERTARIAN paternalism, not nanny state paternalism. We don’t think we know what is best for people. We only want to help people make better choices AS JUDGED BY THEMSELVES.
Taxes are good but often not sufficient.
They’re good for controlling external costs; for protecting people from their own poor choices they’re a two-edged sword. Raising tobacco taxes helps those who never become addicted to cigarettes and those who succeed in quitting; those who remain addicted merely get the buden of taxation added to their other burdens. (Jonathan Caulkins has called this “making people who choose to damage their lungs pay through the nose.”)
And even as external-cost control taxes are imperfect because of the heterogeneity of users and use situations. There’s no price at which we should be willing to sell someone who beats up his wife when he gets drunk another drink. So I think we need taxes on non-problem users and bans on some problem users.
Hi Richard,
I am a huge fan of the book. I am currently a psychology undergraduate at UC Irvine where I conduct research on moral psychology. However, after reading your book a couple months ago I wish to begin research in behavioral economics and ways which such research can impact public policy.
I have 2 questions:
1. where do you feel the field of behavioral economics (and the like, i.e. behavioral finance) is going? is it going towards more recommended nudge-type policies?
2. how exactly does such research, done by yourself and others, influence policy? Do the policy makers just come across your work or are you active in influencing policy makers or are you sometimes hired for your knowledge in such areas?
Well, the answer to question 2 is that my co-author has been named by President Obama to be the head of the Office of INformation and Regulatory Affairs, the most important job in DC that you have never heard of. There are also lots of other behavioralists in the Obama admin. Have a look at the article in the current issue of Time.
I agree completely. We can’t sell the right to beat your wife (or husband). The question is simply how much CAN we achieve with nudging.
Which merely begs the question about nudging Congress to enact these measures you suggest.
Lobbyists and corporations do their nudging via donations; nudging from individuals is generally via phone calls and emails. To date, the financial nudging seems to be much more effective — and their nudges generally are pushes to keep Congress from acting. “You don’t have to affirmatively do anything – just don’t adopt new rules and measures to restrict us.”
Perhaps what they do would be less “nudging Congress ” and more “encouraging Congressional inertia.”
The link to that Time article is
http://www.time.com/time/magaz…..-1,00.html
I note that this analysis of costs is purely economic. Many accidents are in facts accidents, and cause a lot of harm to both parties, not just the more innocent. In the case of motorcycles, for example, minimal negligence on the part of a car driver can cause massive damage to a rider, which in turn causes massive misery to the car driver. A sudden stop, for example. How do you price that into your economic analysis?
I’m in a bad mood about the new 35 cent per cigar tax increase–nudge nudge-
Past a certain point, a nudge becomes more of a body check.
Glad you came back at me. A few things to say about this. First, the President has said he is in favor of better government disclosure as well. On his second day in office he released an executive order saying that the presumption would be that all requests for government data would be granted, more or less the opposite of the Bush policy. Also, electronic disclosure would be REQUIRED of firms. There is new technology that makes this possible. The SEC has now started requiring electronic disclosure using a language called XBRL. There is more on this on our blog at http://www.nudges.org.
I doubt that disclosure can cure the ills that we are now suffering. I have read the SEC disclosures of Citigroup and AIG, and I can’t figure anything out about what the current situation might be.
We won’t understand the credit default swap positions of Citigroup, no matter how much disclosure we have, because it turns on the financial condition of counterparties.
With apologies in advance for asking without having read the book, does Nudge take any position on, or offer advice about, the process of deciding which decisions should be “nudged” in which direction, or how such deciding should be done?
It seems to me that this is a much more significant (and difficult) question than whether the state should make a point of taking behavioral quirks of human nature into account when it formulates policy.
While the state already does that to some extent, you seem to be advocating a relationship between citizen and state which is modeled more on the relationship between consumers and providers. In effect, you seem to be arguing that the state should put more effort into tuning the “default” for the choices it offers in order to achieve a more positive outcomes. Positive for whom though?
The problems created by commercial “nudging” are, I think, pretty obvious to anyone who has insurance, or buys toothpaste, or deals with telecommunication or software providers. Why shouldn’t we expect those problems to be even more pronounced when it’s the state doing the nudging? Or — in re your comment at #33 — how do you propose to encourage transparency on the part of the state, which has no competitors?
There’s a pretty good argument to be made that US citizens are among the most politically misinformed and uninformed of any industrial nation, and since the central requirement of a “nudge” is information asymmetry we would seem to be very good candidates. I’m just not sure that we benefit from leveraging that asymmetry to solve particular policy problems instead of trying to reduce it altogether.
LOL.
Or, lets’ drill down into it a bit more deeply.
Dr. Sunstein argues against the “precautionary principle” saying it’s “incoherent”:
He then goes on to use the war in Iraq as an example of the “precautionary principle” gone bad. But that has very little relevance to the place it is most frequently applied — harmful chemicals in our environment.
We’re almost never in a situation where we’re being deprived of the fabulous benefits of something because we’re being overly cautious — quite the opposite, the system is controlled by those who stand to benefit from lax regulation such that all standards of “sufficient proof” always exist just outside the boundaries of what we know.
And then people are soaking up toxic carcinogens at an alarming rate, as rapidly increasing rates of cancer imply. Which indicates to me, anyway, that there’s something deeply wrong about demanding “acceptable proof” in a system controlled by those who can keep changing the definition of what constitutes ”acceptable proof.”
I don’t think anyone has ever called Cass a Neo-con! Had unpaid positions with brookings and aei – brookings board cochaired by liberal robert litan of brookings and including kenneth arrow and other left of center types. Cass is the moderate’s moderate. And a great guy, except for his absolutely evil drop shot in tennis, which should be banned.
We have a chapter called “When do we need a nudge”. Short answer: for hard problems. We are very clear on positive for whom: for the citizens. And, as I have already stressed here, one important thing to improve upon is government disclosure.
digg open
The president also, however, seems inclined not to encourage too much disclosure. From the White House website:
Wouldn’t someone interested in full disclosure simply posts these pdfs? It would save the costs of staffers having to take each individual email, find the appropriate disclosure report, and send it back to the person who submitted the request. Indeed, one might suspect that the motive for creating this system is to keep track of which staffers are being checked up on, and who is doing the checking. If the interest was solely to disclose the information, there are various cheaper and more direct ways of disclosing this information.
Whether we are talking about Congress or the Executive, whether we are talking about republicans or democrats, “disclosure” seems to be a dirty word in Washington.
Thank you for the link and reply!
I hope you’ll forgive me for pointing out that the short answer begs the question. I’ll try to treat that as a nudge to read the book :-)
That said, I’m glad you aren’t suggesting that it should be a routine instrument of policy.
Don’t know the details but this seems like a quibble to me. Compare getting the pdf by email with shredding it! I believe this admin does believe in disclosure.
The FDA essentially uses the precautionary principle with respect to medicines: they’re guilty until proven innocent. It’s certainly the case that people die as a result.
Now it’s also true that FDA sometimes accepts inadequate evidence of safety and efficacy. And it’s also true that the process by which pharmaceutical companies market drugs to doctors leaves a lot to be desired. But I don’t think there’s any doubt that a process of quicker approvals (perhaps initially conditional approvals that would allow prescription only by specially qualified physicians) and quicker removals would save lives and money.
But I agree that putting random organic chemicals into the environment under an innocent-until-proven-guilty rule will certainly lead to some bad outcomes.
Hard to write more! These are coming fast!
Some of the examples above seem to be a company nudging an employee. Am I right in thinking that you support using rules to require actors to engage in (appropriate) nudging? That is, that the libertarian element in your argument in concerned about the autonomy of persons, not corporations?
There’s also weighing disclosure versus privacy. A lot of the Obama team’s planned disclosure have run up against the Privacy Act, for good or ill.
However, Obama has overruled his own administration at least once WRT their desires to keep things secret:
OK, brief interlude so time for an elaboration. We suggest that nudging is called for:
1) When decisions are rare.
2) When there is no feedback on decision. Or when there is a long lag
time between action and its consequences.
3) When subject is unfamiliar and people are still figuring out a
clear sense of their preferences.
4) When current decision making environment hides many important features.
The govt. isn’t shy about “nudges”, including who one can marry, what one can ingest, what one can grow, let alone motorcycle helmets and seat belts- and whether one can end one’s own life
There is certainly a question as to whether or not they should have the ability to do these nudges- as well as to whether they have the wisdom to use such power wisely.
But doesn’t the FDA often rely pretty much on the manufacturer’s word that they’ve run the appropriate field tests on new meds? Kind of a “TRUST us, would we lie to you?” deal.
Which seems to not work all that well.
Great point. Privacy has to be weighted against disclosure. There will be some tough calls for those of us who value both.
I think that radish’s point is the most critical one.
It is one thing to talk about policies that, say, a well run company and its HR department might embrace that will enhance the “choice architecture”. It’s quite another to do so in the case of the state. Virtually every time the state imposes a “choice architecture”, it is imposing a set of preferred values on citizens. Perhaps those values will accepted for the majority, and rejected by a minority. Should the majority always win out? Or should the real constraint be rather to make the choices as unconstrained and unbiased at each stage as possible?
And there are other problems. Perhaps it makes sense for an enlightened corporation to register all employees in an optional retirement scheme by default. But would it be right for the state to require all corporations to do so? Clearly, there’s an extra level of coercion there that gives one some real pause.
Maybe the book gets into these sorts of issue. But if it doesn’t really, it’s pretty much missing the boat here.
One of the main points of the book is showing how the government can use nudges instead of bans.
Of course it is true that all questions are answered in the book!
Seriously here is an example from the book. We praise the pension protection act of 2006 that nudged (not required) firms to adopt some savings policies we like (automatic enrollment, save more tomorrow, company match). In fact I helped nudge that act into being.
Again, a main point of the book is that individuals should be able to over-ride the nudges. I think that’s true in some instances and not in others, but it’s simply a mistake to accuse Thaler and Sunstein of supporting intrusive regulation about private decisions.
Thank you for your response. But why is there always a “third way” that always seems to be the corporate way. We have had 8 years of Libertarian policies. How about a third way that is supportive of peace justice, and freedom-say the S-word, Soci***lism.
Of course AEI is a nest of warmonger neo-cons, but Brookings is just as bad. These really brilliant smarty pants in these corporate spnsored “Think Tanks” have done a heckuva job themselves.
And what is the alternative when a powerless individual is fighting against the mafia of the intelligentsia (medical, legal, and higher ed industries) where the balance of power is so skewed to the seller? No defense at all? Somewhat lower medical bills instead of a couple hundred thousand for a doc who amputates the wrong leg?
I’m concerned this will be misinterpreted. There’s no content here about the chat, just my concern about how some others might misconstrue your 57, especially the otherwise fine line about tennis with a Harvard graduate and a member of the Obama administration.
While I think everyone at FDL would agree that Obama was a superior choice to McCain, we’re really, really not pleased with POTUS and especially his Harvard educated Teasury secretary Larry Summers and his poodle, Tim Geithner. The whole populism vs. elitism theme is spreading like wildfire because unemployment keeps going north and the value of pensions keeps going south. We’re not prosecuting criminals if they are wealthy or served in the Bush administration and we’re not getting out of the Middle East. Obama’s done some good things and some of his cabinet have too, but not nearly enough.
It’s not fair that anyone would read anything into a completely innocent comment about tennis, but imvho, that’s the country we now live in. I have had teachers from the University of Chicago. I have great respect for David Tracy’s work there in Theology. But, since the meltdown, it’s reputation has taken a huge hit.
Even though it’s not fair, from a marketing perspective, in this environment, anything that appears the least bit “elitist,” will not sell.
What an elitist is and if you and Cass fit in that category is none of my business or concern. I just wanted to reflect back to you that the UofC pedigree brings some baggage and mentioning tennis on top of that might get misconstrued.
Apologies for the long winded whatever. I’m enjoying the chat and the high level change of ideas.
Cass Let’s-Not-Criminalize-Policy-Difference (i.e. torture) Sunstein?
Is you saw some of Cass’ tennis outfits you would know that his game may be at an elite level but we are hardly elitists!
I am critical of plenty of things about Sunstein. But even assuming the worse about him, it’s not worth rehashing those criticisms that are unrelated to the book. If he’s so terrible, than his ideas (those being discussed here) should be flawed, and therefore easily dispatched. Talking about those ideas is helpful.
We are all for empowering consumers. Medical malpractice is just a lousy way to do it. Once they have operated on the wrong leg you can’t get it back. There is no insurance policy that provides replacement limbs! Better disclosure on hospitals and health care providers would help a lot more. You would prefer to go to the right doctor rather than sue the wrong one.
Hear hear.
I’m really not sure that was the case the last eight years. I think Big Pharma and white collar thugs at places like MedTronics got the FDA to approve whatever they wanted.
Big Pharma only wants “quicker” on products that will make them the most money. If that happens to save a life or reduce suffering, they won’t object. It’s just not much of a factor in their decisioning. They get rewarded to increase shareholder value, that’s it.
What we desperately need is for professionals to put the PUBLIC health first. Yeah, sure a medication for restless leg syndrome, whatever the hell that is gets FDA approval.
The real killers, however, which you mention here:
are ignored so Dow Chemical can stay out of Chapter 11.
Is Big Pharma to blame for Chemical producers? Not exactly, but it’s not like they’re mentioning it.
This is an excellent series on BPA and it chronicles the FDA’s complete capitulation to the chemical industry.
I don’t know of one exception where the Bush FDA stood firm and said “no, this is a boundary you can’t cross.”
Because of all the
non-existent“voluntary” regulation We’ve got tons of chemicals we don’t even know about being made.This example is no good. There have been dramatic examples where litigation has led to improved patient care (and incidentally, drove down insurance rates.) The best one in anesthesiologists – who worked on industry wide, evidence based principles in response to litigation costs.
The issue is that the medical establishment isn’t responding appropriately to the incentives of the litigation system. A nudge from government, to help fields do what the anesthesiologists did, might help. These things are not mutually exclusive – they can work together.
There’s so much cancer out there and the chemo/treatment regimen, is so damn PAINFUL and expensive, the FDA is getting a lot of hate from a lot of people.
Once you start talking physicians, imho, you have to talk about Medical School Education and why there is such a chronic physician shortage.
We need more physicians/providers in more of the general specialties that most Americans need, primary care, internal medicine. Like any good guild/union, AMA wants to restrict the supply of physicians into the market. That’s what keeps salaries high.
The physician shortage also drives up the cost of medical school education and research.
In practical terms, there is often no difference. If I ride without my helmet, I get fined. If I smoke cigars I get taxed…Not too much difference there.
You would have a hard time convincing me that litigation is the most efficient way of achieving the adoption of best practices. Wouldn’t you prefer to be able to actually check to see whether a hospital was using best practices rather than hoping that the highly variable process of law suits will do the trick? And I don’t mean checking yourself. Through the process of electronic disclosure we are advocating in all domains, third party web sites would emerge that would allow you to do your research quickly and efficiently. I would give up my right to sue in a nano-second in trade for better information.
Governments use carrots and sticks to influence behavior- it’s just that some sticks are bigger than others.
Be happy that you can smoke those stogies. Many would want to ban them.
How does a society choose those who design/implement the “nudges,” and how does it hold them accountable?
In an ideal world, you have a point. But in today’s world where all the involved parties, the doctors, the hospitals, the insurance companies, etc, all seem to have a vested interest in non-disclosure and keeping their secrets, how do we overcome all the resistance and bring about the third party hosting of this information?
Elections. Obama won so he is in charge. He gets to appoint Sunstein as nudger in chief. If they live up to their promises we will be able to monitor their behavior more closely than any administration in history, so if they don’t do a good job of nudging, and everything else, then we can vote them out in four years.
I have issues with the increase of legalized gambling sucking in the gamblers and online gamblers, having known those who have had this addiction and those who are dependent on them.
As we come to the end of this lively Book Salon,
Richard, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon discussing your new book.
Mark, Thank you very much for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Richard’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
Medicare is also in bed with Humana and other insurance companies. Medicare carries the water for these insurance companies to screw the elderly. The Medicare documentation sets the bait for the bait and switch. Medicare will claim in their government mailing that Humana for example doesn’t charge a premium. Then Humana runs the “switch” and starts billing.
I certainly hope Obama’s administration tries to prosecute those people.
“There’s just been a complete breakdown in “law and order” for corporations.
That is exactly the point. We require electronic disclosure at a level of detail that only modern technology allows, then we let the third parties go at it.
I wouldn’t try to convince you of that. There’s a world of difference between saying litigation is optimal and saying that it does not ever work and cannot ever work. (And between the question of efficiency and of rights.)
That said, what you are proposing sounds similar to what litigation led to in my example. Again, I see these things as complementary. (I also doubt your proposal could come about unless hospitals and the like decide its the best way to reduce litigation.)
Thanks for having me and thanks to everyone for their comments.
Exactly. Let’s trade disclosure for tort reform. A win.
Of course, the whole medical “malpractice” crisis, is a phony one. If physicians do not regulate themselves properly, then that is why we have a legal system. You are very eager to protect the rich who are not giving up their right to sue anyone.
Libertarians are about keeping freedom for themselves. But they want to take or perhaps purchase the freedoms of others. Thanks to the de-regulators, we have a poisoned environment. But I myself have not been paid to give up my right to a healthy and safe environment.
So, if the President’s economic policies are designed to nudge the financial giants into expanding credit without fraud and looting, and yet we see increasing evidence of fraud and looting without expanded credit, should be blame the President, or the nudge designer/advisor?
Or if the President’s DoJ continues to withhold opinions sanctioning torture, or continues policies to shield those who committed war crimes, who is accountable there?
I don’t see how the concept helps the public get improved governance when the chain of responsibility is not apparent and the metrics for success or failure cannot be traced to the governing principle. What have you solved?
Summers is continuing Paulson’s and Bernanke’s shovelling of TWELVE TRILLION out to the banks through the Treasury and Federal Reserve.
Last week 63 DEMOCRATS in the House voted for an amendment that gutted the legislation that was supposed to cap bonuses that banks and insurance companies who took TARP money were supposed to abide by.
The amendment passed and Rahm and Barack clearly appear to support it. It’s as venal as anything I have ever seen. It hurts the taxpayers, it hurts the shareholders, but it lines the pockets of bank executives at the insolvent money center banks.
The whole bonus thing is a bright shiny object to begin with. What we’re really concerned about is the 12 trillion. Not only are they unconcerned about the 12 trillion, they get to keep their bonuses, because the amendment allows them to repay a fraction of what we loaned them more tax payer dollars.
How many universities are going to survive when the government goes belly up?
Google on Illinois Democrat Melissa Bean from Schaumberg and Jane Hamsher. Jane tells it a lot better than I do.
Not exactly what I had in mind (I was thinking that reduced injuries and better information leads to less litigation). But the general idea of evidence based medicine / disclosure is a good one.
There is a breakdown of trust in this country. I like the idea of benign nudging… but who are the newest “deciders”. Even the word “decider” now has evil connotations. :( corporations as psychopaths. consumer culture not a moral one.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that the FDA truly acts on the precautionary principle, because they selectively allow companies to present data to the public on drug safety — there is no research transparency. Further, the precautionary principle does not assume “guilty until proven innocent” — it’s a matter of making the best decision possible from the available data, rather than waiting for “perfect” data before addressing a situation.
The FDA in fact allows harmful chemicals to frequently be used as additives that are banned in the EU, placing the burden of “proof” on consumers to prove they are harmful, and then moving the goal posts about what constitutes “proof.” Phthalates have been known to mimic estrogen for decades, and yet we’re only now getting about the business of banning them in children’s toys, whereas the EU did it in 1999.
Despite all the railing that is being done against the precautionary principle, the world is adopting the EU’s standards — and using the US as a dumping ground for products that won’t meet the standards of the Chinese. Cadmium, mercury and lead? Nobody else wants them, but we’ll take them.
Our system is broken, and I don’t see it getting fixed by those belittling a practical, sensible, real-world approach to regulation that puts the interest of consumers above corporate profits.
How about “let’s require disclosure, because that will reduce the need for litigation.”
Your response does not really get at the heart of my objection.
Namely, what are the constraints on “nudges” when it comes to policies of state? Given that virtually all products of behavioral studies of the sort you appeal to are only statistical ones — that is, ones in which it suffices that the majority of the participants are, say, happy with the outcome of the the “enhanced” choice architecture, how about those in the minority? Presumably they aren’t equally happy with that product, and, more to the point, may not at all be happy with the “choice architecture” that is designed to “nudge” them in a direction they don’t like.
You mention an example in which the use of the “choice architecture” seems benign. But, once the methodology is widely adopted, how does one prevent it from being applied in instances where it seems quite pernicious, because it can undermine the free and unconstrained rights of a minority?
Suppose, for example, that the majority of the country think that it would be best if pregnant women only had an abortion if it were used as a last resort. Suppose that they would be quite happy with a policy requiring pregnant women at least to get counseling regarding the alternatives to abortion before they freely choose to get an abortion, because behavioral science demonstrates that imposing that counseling “nudges” them more often than otherwise to adopt rather than to terminate a pregnancy. Yet, as I stipulate, they have a completely free choice at the end of the process to terminate the pregnancy.
I should think that most choice advocates might recoil at the requirement of counseling before the “free” choice of an abortion. And they would do so because they would see it as a real restriction on the freedom of that choice, even though, at the end, one does indeed have such a choice.
How, in principle, does your approach get around this problem?
Was Ralph Nader the daddy of “nudging”?
Do you know how much that sounds like George Bush?
There are several other branches of government that are there to serve as checks and balances so that the executive does not have unlimited authority. I realize things have changed a bit, but it’s my understanding that’s how things still work.
If Cass Sunstein (or anyone else in the administration) turns out to be a dangerous idiot, I certainly hope there are steps we can take to hold them accountable short of voting Obama out of office four years from now. If not, I might as well go on vacation.
Ah, that helped a lot, thanks. In that context, the problem I was trying to get at is most apparent in item #4.
When “the current decision making environment hides many important features” from the citizen then there’s also no reason to assume that the state — or any other “expert” — can tell which choice will provide the “optimal” outcome (whatever that is) for the citizens in aggregate. Answering complex multivariate questions directly instead of trying to maximize the number of informed agents who propose, compare, and discuss, competing answers means that the chosen answer is more likely to be wrong than not-wrong. Say, didn’t your coauthor write a book about this a while back? I did read that one.
We’ll be monitoring their behavior closely even (especially!) if they don’t live up to their promises. There are quite a lot of people who don’t find “trust us, we know what we’re doing” any more palatable from Democrats than from Republicans (even though in fairness it is more likely to be true).
Sunstein used to say that it was appropriate for regulations to engage in risk management, rather then acting only after harm has occurred. To do the latter was outmoded thinking that smuggled older common law concepts into the regulatory state where they were ill fitting (i.e. status quo neutrality). This was especially important when the the risks are diffused.
He was right then, but wrong now.
Presidentialism rears its ugly head once again!
Cass Sunstein … Samantha Power. That Sunstein, too.
Branding not real ideology. Psuedo progressivism to keep the status quo.
Last comment my @116 to @114.
We’ve learned what can be done (and undone) in 4 or 8-year chunks. No thank you.
I also don’t share the high degree of confidence you seem to in the recent mechanics of election counts. I wonder how much higher than 53% of the vote did Obama really garner, but that’s another topic I guess.