Yikes.

And the pope goes to AIDS ravaged Africa and tells people not to use condoms. There is method to their madness… no wait, the other way around.

We’re talking about a church whose leader (El Popo):

1. Believes condoms help spread HIV/AIDS.

2. Reinstates a bishop who denies the Holocaust.

3. Believes only males are holy enough to be priests.

4. Is “concerned” that members of his clergy have a fondness for little boys.

Give. Me. A. Break. These self-righteous motherfuckers can kiss my ass.

My point isn’t whack the Catholic Church, though you’re free to do so. It’s to point out the hypocrisy of right-wing Catholics on this issue.

Dugg

Of course, I think BT’s point is that the academic institutions are not at fault for inviting people to speak who hold views opposed to church doctrine. The culprits are the partisan right-wing hypocrites who only condemn speakers from the “Democrat Party.”

Looks like I owe you a beverage.

That was my point. Instead of raising hell about Obama appearing at Notre Dame they need to be cleaning their own house.

My Mom likes Barack Obama. She had her home health workers come over extra early on inauguration morning just so that she would be up and ready to watch when it began. But she did not vote for Obama. She thought it might be a sin because Obama “supports abortion”. She doesn’t want to go to hell.

I despise the Catholic church for all of their hypocrisy.
I don’t think an organization that coddled and protected a bunch of pervert priests deserves any respect.
How do they get to say anything about moral values?

A result of my not setting it up correctly.

Danged superstitious bigots, I can’t wait until the Rapture takes me away from all this. On a related note, I hope my underpants get Raptured too, I don’t want anybody sneakin’ a peak as I go flyin’ up to Hebbin.

Hypocrisy is not unique to religion and democracy, it’s just heavily concentrated there.

Remember what Mom said and always wear a clean pair

Sorry, BT- I didn’t mean to distract from your point.
The right wing Catholics have that Rush Limbaugh game going.
The Catholic church is a top down authoritarian regime.
If they don’t want the right wingers saying stuff, they will shut it down.
But they don’t.

Amen

Why not whack them up, after all, what have they done for you lately but
drop the pretense of ecuminialism?

RCs aren’t big on the Rapture, fwiw.

You will need magical undies for that. my dear.

I, on the other hand, will be dead when people discover what kind of underwear I have, so one of my minor household economies is wearing them until they shred.

My point isn’t whack the Catholic Church, though you’re free to do so. It’s to point out the hypocrisy of right-wing Catholics on this issue.

Oh, there’s already been plenty of rants in this and other forums about the hypocrisy of right-wing Catholics, especially their clergy. As you are probably aware, the Catholic Church opposes the war in Iraq and is also against capital punishment and the arms race. These objections to Obama speaking at Notre Dame are more evidence that the Catholic Church picks and chooses which of its teachings it enforces.

Furthermore, it’s been repeatedly pointed out that Rudy Giuliani, George Pataki and Arnold Schwarzenegger are all pro-choice and are all Catholic. It appears that if you have an “R” after your name, you are exempt. I would submit that the primary objection to Obama here is the “D” after his name. So not only is the Church picking and choosing which teachings it enforces, it picks and chooses who it enforces against.

She never told ME that. I was the fourth child and all my clothes were hand-me-downs. By the time the underpants got to me there was nothing left but an elastic waistband.

The thing that continues to just blow my fuckin’ mind is that there are a lot of people who believe as if the novels are an extension of the Bible and that the Rapture is actually part of the Book of Revelation of St John the Divine. To hear the authors they certainly talk that way, whether it’s just a snow job to sell books or not.

No, but they have dusted off their indulgence policy.

These objections to Obama speaking at Notre Dame are more evidence that the Catholic Church picks and chooses which of its teachings it enforces.

Wait a minute–you need to be really careful about “the Catholic church” here. Notre Dame, after all, is a Jesuit college, and a prominent instrument of the Catholic Church. I’m talking about a particular wing of the Catholic Church. By lumping them all together, you’re doing exactly what K-Lo wants.

It was intended as snark based on the notion that one person’s fantasy is held to be valid while the other person’s fantasy is dismissed as superstition.

IMHO, I’m glad these folks are speaking out about this.

Why? Because it gives rational people (read: firedogpups) a chance to show the lunacy and inconsistency of their arguments (not to mention that it gives a chance to make fun of Ed Morrissey’s grammar). If they show their wrongness publicly and we point out their errors, folks will come to understand the truth.

That’s unbelievable. Next thing they’ll be selling pieces of the “true cross.” Holy moly. Talk about a bridge to the 10th century.

They don’t make that distinction when they call you protestant, just ask
around west belfast.

I cast my vote for the profit motive. They’ve patented a method for fleecing the flock.

You cannot buy one – the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1567 – but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one.

We should set up a pool about how long it will take this pope to reverse 1567.

Nothing inconsistent with wingut values. It counts for you, but not for them. I expect the sale of indulgences to resume any day now, then the goopers will REALLY run amok.

My point is – K-Lo claims to be more Catholic than Notre Freaking Dame. Who made her Pope?

I remember the Church parading its wealth in parades through small, poor Spanish towns on religious holidays. Quite the show. I always saw priests as witch doctors in fancy threads.

You can also buy an annulment from the Catholic church.
My sister-in-law got one after about 20 yrs of marriage and 4 kids.
She needed it to marry again in the Catholic church.
Pay a fee and your one-man, one-woman marriage didn’t even happen.
I’ve often wondered if that now makes the kids out-of-wedlock bastards.

I’m 57 and remember as a child that “holy” cards sold in the church bookstore had indulgences on the back. 300 days for the cheapest card.

My favorite recent R.C. hypocrisy is the elimination of limbo. For quite some time, limbo was a place where unbaptised babyies went instead of heaven. It’s like heaven except you never get to see God’s face. Fast forward to 2007 (I think), R.C. shrinking in most regions of the world, but growing in Africa. However, there are few priests in Africa, so getting a newborn baptised can take years. Parents would be understandably reluctant to sign up to a religion which seems to condemn babies of poor rural people. Voila: no more limbo; unbaptised babies can now go to heaven.

NR was founded on the premise that only RC “values” could protect democracy from the less patriotic protestants too prone to disloyalty
like alger hiss. Buckley and Murdoch make them “popes” to stir the pot.
You are right, provacateurs are trolls.

I’ve often wondered if that now makes the kids out-of-wedlock bastards.

I believe that is so, but I left the R.C. church half a century ago, so don’t take my word.

Exactly.

Just the story of the formation of the “Universal Church” and which texts were chosen to be included in the New Testament reveals the power struggles between Christian sects in the 2nd/3rd centuries.

I am a cultural Christian, in the sense that I love sacred music and the architecture (paintings not so much). Thus when I’m in a European country on Sunday, my first cultural event of the day is the fanciest service in the fanciest cathedral. High Mass in Milan sounded strangely familiar. When leaving the duomo, I learned that it was Messe Traditionelle (or whatever the correct Italian is), or the Latin Mass, which was what was said when I was a child and still R.C. The reason why it didn’t sound totally familiar is because in Milan it was Latin with an Italian accent, as opposed to my childhood experience of U.S.-accented Latin.

Let’s remember that the current occupant of the Vatican (and most of his predecessors for a century back) is not all that Catholic, and certainly not catholic. He has been a ruthless theological and legal innovator, like most so-called conservatives. And that makes him less Catholic not more.

Ratzinger is first and foremost a politician, the chief executive of a petty autocracy that resents having its secular dominion over Spain, Italy, and central Europe reduced to a few city blocks in Rome. As the ancient faith goes, he’s every bit as much Pope and Bishop of Rome as his co-conspirator, the former Occupant of the White House was President of the USA. Like the lamentable Shrub, Ratzinger just thinks there is more to his titles than there is.

I am a Catholic of 50 years standing who has not been to church for 20 years–not because I am separated, but simply because I refuse to enter premises occupied by a right-wing anti-Pope’s minions. So don’t confuse my faith with our first ex-Hitler Youth Pope.

I was reading a commen, over at the Great Orange One, about Newt complaining about Obama speaking at ND. Twice-divorced, adulterous Newt, complaining about the President ….

Heh. One of the audio books I have out from the library is Hitler’s Pope by John Cornwell. It’s next on my list after my current murder mystery.

ya know, thanks to the right wing Catholic fortune of the family that started Dominos Pizza, they built a whole city in Florida, where white catholics get to prance around in a Venice-in-the-Everglades, built around a giant and really really ugly church

http://www.avemaria.com/

City on a hill or something…

No, the children are legit

Indulgences? Really? Does Ratzy not remember what happened last time they did that?

City on a hill? In Florida? How’d that work out for them?

OT: Labor has voted to join Likud in the Knesset enabling Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu to formally become Prime Minister: Haaretz News.

They tried to retake Jerusalem?

Those people are nuts.

http://www.avemaria.com/images…..view_e.jpg

:)

The Catholic Church, of which I still consider myself a member, will be able to close all its churches and cathedrals and hold services in one of the remaining telephone booths if this type of rhetoric keeps up. Obama got over 50 percent of the Catholic vote…closer to 60 percent. American Catholics who actually think rather than kneejerk, know that there is more to the sanctity of life issue than abortion. These most conservative Catholics see only this aspect of life. They don’t see hunger, the right to healthcare, stopping illegal and immoral war, the death penalty as valid pro-life concerns. It’s only about fetuses. The Republican Party has been suckering them in on this issue for over thirty years. Problem is, they’ve done nothing about abortion because they never intended to do anything. They’ve all got daughters and girlfriends to take into consderation and they need abortion to be legal for them. They also have never wanted to kill it as a great ”get out the vote” issue.

It’s hard to believe that these ultra-conservatives haven’t caught on…my guess is that they have and are just voting Republican because that’s what they are. They want their followers to think its a moral issue, but it doesn’t look as if as many are buying their story anymore.

Obama got over 50 percent of the Catholic vote…closer to 60 percent.

Exactly right. But the thing is, he got less than 50% of the white Catholic vote. All that counts to K-Lo & company.

it does, according to the Church – my mom looked ito it when she re-married

My history with BC goes way back (I went there, class of ‘65). They fired my favorite professor, Paul Michaud, who taught a wonderful course on eastern religions , for syncretism. (you could look it up!) Absolutely bogus charge, and I bend the ears of anybody calling at dinnertime for an hour or so till their supervisor comes down hard. Have yet to give them a penny. I doubt that anybody embroiled in that controversy is still alive, fergawdsake! Except me.

And I used to be a fan of jebbies!

When you say that they fired him for syncretism, you aren’t being literal are you?

In response to Blue Texan@24:

Notre Dame is not a Jesuit institution. It was founded by priests of the Congregation of the Holy Cross. Some time back control of the institution was ceded to a lay board of trustees.

I think that it was during the first year of his presidency that W was the featured commencement speaker at ND and was the recipient of a doctor of laws degree, honoris causa.

Along with many others, I was appalled and signed a petition objecting to this perceived silliness. At the time I made the point that where my other alma mater, the University of Texas School of Law had wisely declined to admit W prior to the time the Harvards took him in, ND was giving him an unearned law degree.

That said, I am saddened by the fact that the Catholic bashers on this site conveniently overlook the fact that right wing, fundamentalist Catholics do not define the Church, as I think Blue Texan clearly pointed out. And by doing so, you do a disservice to reasoned dialogue and to informed Catholics who are liberal-progressive both in practice and belief.

Jesus B. Ochoa
ND ‘56, UT Llb ‘61
El Paso, Texas

My mistake. I thought ND & Georgetown were both Jesuit schools.

Boston College is Society of Jesus, though, correct?

You are correct in your last line. Rightwing conservatives are not the entire Catholic Church, but they soon will be. Everytime I see crap like this, I ask myself, once again, why I am still a member of a church that truly dishonors women in every way. It’s like the old joke about not wanting to be a member of a club that would take me as a member. The problem with the hierarchy (management) here is that it is mostly old, white men who wouldn’t be where they are today if they weren’t “yes” men. They wouldn’t have risen in the Church had they chosen to make any waves. Thus, like every organization that is managed in this way, the Catholic Church is a dying institution….no fresh ideas, no new perspectives. Jesus would never recognize the hardness of the hearts of these Christians…and I use the term loosely.

Barack Obama is going to try to address some of the inequities that make abortion a necessary choice for some people. More education and prevention, less poverty. Too bad the Church never sees anything but black and white on any issue. Thinking is absolutes is so a thousand years ago.

Yes, BC is Jesuit – darned Jeebies are all over the place, bless their mostly progressive hides which are such a burr in Rome’s saddle – the last of my daughters is dong her pre-med at St. Joseph’s U in Philly, also pretty progressive Jesuit – a marvelous book “The Jesuit Mystique”, really worth reading.

KathyinStLouis1, they simply are not going to chase me out of my Church. I stand with Gary Wills, and I am convinced that although the spirit may have come knocking during the last two conclaves, she probably didn’t find anyone home, and we wound up with JPII and Benedict XVI. Not to mention bishops like yours in St. Louis.

Jesus B. Ochoa

You are correct in your last line. Rightwing conservatives are not the entire Catholic Church, but they soon will be.

I’m less pessimistic than you. How do you explain Notre Dame’s invitation to Obama?

Helpful for athletic recruitment?

Point is, Obama won the Catholic vote. It’s not at all clear that all that’s going to be left is wingers, in fact, the opposite appears to be the trend.

I’m pretty much ignorant of the realities of the political process, but what I remember about the “Catholic vote” is that it’s a subset of the middle class and in hard economic times will vote for perceived self-interest which was pretty evidently the Democratic Party position.
Knowing even less of modern Church politics, I would still venture to agree with you that the majority of people brought up in the Church will not leave or fail to have their children join. What I think that we all see is the tension caused by Church tradition and the current realities of American life.

Anyone notice that Bill O’ was still using that “Iraq = 9/11″ meme as late as 2007. The guy he was arguing with raised Rice’s support for an illegal invasion of Iraq opposed by the Pope. O’Reilly then said “9-11! 9-11!”

And which of the “crimes” that Obama is involved with that violate Catholic doctrine would be sufficient to make him acceptable as a public speaker at Notre Dame? Is it retracting his belief that condom use actually helps prevent the spread of HIV? His allowing embryonic stem-cell research to continue with public funding if the researchers can show it has important potential to lead to scientific and medical advances? Or maybe it’s his support for choice? Or perhaps because he hasn’t stood up and supported the banning of contraception, not just for Catholics, but also people of other faiths?

I know a solution to this, but I doubt the Pope is willing to face up to it.

It’s a simple fact that it is not possible for a Catholic (under current doctrine) to represent a constituency in a Democracy (or a Republic, if you wish). The fact that the representative must swear oath of allegience to a Constitution that holds all religious practitioners and non-religious equal under law makes it impossible to institute laws that fall under Catholic doctrine for all citizens. For the church to compel this of followers, to pressure them under the threat of expulsion, or separation from God and the Church, is akin to blackmail or a bribe. It may not be the offer of money, but it is a threat or offer of a gift of substantial value. Extortion for a vote on specific issues. Somehow the Church maintains it’s “apolitical” IRS status?

Oh the “solution” for Pope Ratzenberg would be to forbid ANY CATHOLIC to participate in political positions- whether it be at the Federal, State or local level. That way they would not have to represent anyone else, especially non-Catholics. The Pope would no longer have to threaten individuals who merely feel morally compelled to represent their Constituents to the best of their ability with punishment for voting for legislation at odds with Catholic doctrine. And those individuals would not be placed in such a paradoxical position.

Or perhaps the Pope would accept that a persons political role in a Democracy is not identical with their social role within the church. One is, as Jesus said “Giving what is Caesar’s”, the other is “Giving what is God’s”. So apersons personal values…for him or herself is different than their role as a legislator.

Not possible to represent?
Would that be applicable to other religions. Muslims? Jews? Anglicans?
Which ones are OK?

Don’t know if you are referring to me as a “catholic basher”. I suppose I am.

But for the record, my father attended Notre Dame until he was drafted for WW2.
My father’s father graduated from Notre Dame, and my father’s maternal great-grandfather helped build Notre Dame. I mean literally, build it. He is even buried there. My great great grandfather was an illiterate Irish stone mason who not only helped build Notre Dame, but also, along with the other illiterate Irish tradesman, built their local parish church in the dark, by candlelight after work. My great great grandfather never had a chance for an education in Ireland. It was forbidden. But his children and grandchildren and great grandchildren did. They were educated in Catholic schools where they learned to read and write and figure, and that Catholicism was the “one true religion” and the only way you could get into heaven.

When I was in third grade, my entire class spent 3 days painting a mural on butcher paper that was taped around the perimeter of the room. It was of the poor souls burning in purgatory. I still remember it vividly. Some students had drawn in word baloons that said, “I’ll never be bad again if I can have a drink of water.” After the mural was dry, it was hung in the stairwell for months, so we could think about burning in purgatory.

When I was in college- a small catholic girl’s college- the school exchanged a few teachers with a nearby Jesuit school. After our teacher collected and graded our first papers, he was so appalled by the lack of depth and understanding, that he made an open offer to the class. We could use his library card and have access to his jesuit college library. I took him up on the offer. During the 60s, Catholics were not allowed to read any books that did not have an “imprimatur” on it- an OK from the pope. But Jesuits were allowed to read and have all sorts of “forbidden” books in their libraries. Maybe because they were expected to “refute” the heretics. Reading Hans Kung and other forbidden authors in that library opened my eyes and paved the way for me to separate myself from years of Catholic indoctrination.

While I may “bash” Catholic theology and hypocrisy, I don’t denounce the role of the church or its members in forming communities of faith. There are many people in the Catholic church who have ministered to the poor, the sick and forgotten. Others are strong advocates for social justice. I applaud them. Religion plays an important role in many lives. But I will continue to “bash” the catholic hierarchy and deride right wing screamers for forcing their congregations to accept their political beliefs under the threat of excommunication or eternal damnation.

Blue Texan and viejolex1: The main reason I think the Catholic Church may be on its last leg is that the hierarchy’s inability to flex in any way is going to be its undoing. It’s insulting that they would rather have no one at all to serve than to ordain married men or women. They want only men who are willing to never marry. Unfortunately, as recent history shows that has meant, for decades that they ended up with many men who weren’t interested in marriage for many reasons, some of which turned out to be pretty unsavory. Therefore, they took any warm body into the priesthood. Having done so, they turned a blind eye to the psychological makeup of a lot of these men who turned out not to be gay, but rather to be sexually immature pedophiles. Even this didn’t encourage the Church to open up the priesthood to married and women. Many parishes in this country have no full-time priest. Yet, the hierarchy wants to limit lay involvement to rather superfluous levels. With no one minding the store, I doubt that it can survive and thrive. And the like of the last Bishop here in my town, a disgrace if ever there was one, merely hastens its demise. Few are listening. Fewer are attending. Even fewer see much joy in Catholicism any longer.

Whatever the failures in your education, the ability to write well wasn’t amongst them.

I am grateful to the nuns who taught me. They did an amazing job with only a ruler and the fear of God to aid them.

In response to chrisc @69.

No, I don’t consider you a Catholic basher. I am speaking of people who claim, for example, that a Catholic has to agree with whatever the Pope says on pain of being kicked out of the fold. Or, of people who cite Pope Pius XII as the last word on connubial relations. Or, of people who cite a given canon law provision that has no application to the topic under discussion. Or, people who speak from cultivated ignorance or from bigotry.

kathyinstlouis: I suppose it is a question of perspective. I know the Church is in trouble, and the trouble is of its own, inbred, making. But truth is a powerful palliative, in the short run, at least, and education continues to batter away at the unsustainable positions of the aging hierarchy.

Will we have women priests? Not in my lifetime. In my daughter’s? Who knows? What we do know is that there is neither scriptural nor solid teaching against the possibility. There is only tradition, and tradition is not a solid base on which to rely when reason is pounding at the gates. I know that there is a vibrant international community of progressive Catholics who embrace the gospel of Jesus and who, like him, are willing to chase the moneychangers in all their guises from the temple – and it is liberation theology that I believe will ultimately claim the victory, in spite of the aging naysayers of the old world.

It is worth remembering that when the Vatican sought to impose the strictures of Ex Corde Ecclesiae on American Catholic colleges and universities, and the promulgation was approved by the U. S. Conference of Bishops, Boston College and Notre Dame stood tall in leading the resistance to what was widely regarded as an onslaught against academic freedom at Catholic universities. I don’t take the future to be as bleak as you do. I hope I am not wrong about the impact of more and more modern, educated Catholics on the Church.

I trust that the nuns survived the effort, but suspect the rulers shattered upon contacting a clearly sharp wit.