(Dean Baker is co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research and the author of Plunder and Blunder: The Rise and Fall of the Bubble Economy. Please welcome him in the comments — jh)
Dean Baker released a paper last week on AIG, written for the Center for Economic Policy and Research. The words "must read" get bandied about with way too much freedom, but they certainly apply here. (You can find it here, or download it on PDF).
Points he raises:
• Did Geithner know about the AIG bonuses? Almost certainly:
This discussion is silly because Geithner almost certainly knew of the bonuses ever since the initial takeover on September 15th. He just didn’t think they were important.
• Were AIG’s credit default swaps insurance, or just gambling? Meaning, were they purchased as insurance for assets held by a particular bank, or was the bank just betting on the failure of bonds they didn’t own? Dean rightly makes the point that there is a big difference, particularly with regard to the taxpayer’s need to pay them off:
If a bank had bought a CDS to protect itself against losses on a mortgage backed security, and the CDS was not honored, then it would be an unexpected blow to its balance sheet. On the other hand, if the bank was just gambling that a bond that it did not hold would go bad by buying a CDS issued against it, it is difficult to see how a failure to honor the CDS would impose a serious hardship.
• Did the government have to pay off these insurance claims at 100% now, or could they have waited to see what happened? And what is the government’s policy about paying out credit default swaps?
The government, through AIG, paid an additional $30 billion to counterparties because it paid off CDSs at their notional value rather than their market value. In principle, AIG would have owed the notional value of the CDSs if the underlying bond had defaulted. In these cases, the bond had not defaulted. In effect, the government acted as though AIG had already lost its bet, at a time when it was still possible that the underlying bonds would not go bad.
• Why did the government need to use AIG as an intermediary to pay off these banks?
When the government lent hundreds of billions of dollars to the banks through TARP, it got preferred shares of stock in return, in addition to placing conditions on the banks’ conduct. By contrast, the government received absolutely nothing for the tens of billions of dollars that it passed on to the banks through AIG. It may have been desirable to ensure that AIG’s defaults did not lead to the collapse of the major banks that were its counterparties, but this could have been accomplished by directly giving these banks capital through TARP or some equivalent mechanism. There is no obvious reason why it was necessary to give the money through AIG without getting anything in return.
I personally rely on Dean Baker to be a Rosetta Stone to the financial crisis. He speaks simply and clearly in a way that ordinary people can understand, and removes the cloak of confusion that is being used to hide a lot of misdeeds.
Please take the opportunity to ask him your questions in the comments, and remember that when it comes to the crisis in our financial system, everyone is confused, and there’s no such thing as a dumb question.



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Welcome Dean! Okay I’m getting my question in early. What is the one question you hope that Geithner will answer tomorrow about AIG? And how about Bernanke?
Shouldn’t mark to market accounting have forced all the banks to mark down the toxic assets by now, and run losses on the decline in value through their income statements?
If that is the case, why not buy the toxic assets at a mark down, rather than notional value?
Wouldn’t buying at notional value show a profit spike for the banks?
About the bonuses, I would ask Geithner how he could not have known that AIG would be issuing bonuses. After all, this is what financial firms do, and he never told them not to issue bonuses.
On AIG more generally, I would ask him why he paid off CDS at their nominal value on loans that had not yet gone bad. That looks like he was just handing money to Goldman and the rest.
For Bernanke I would ask when he stopped being wrong about the economy.
I bought and read Plunder after your appearance here at Book Saloon. Thank you very much for that. I don’t have a question. I just think the system is trash and until we make fundamental changes in that system it will remain trash. This game playing by the elites is frustrating while it further enriches those who sought to do nothing but enrich themselves in the first place and impoverishes the rest of the world.
This may be a rhetorical question (ok it IS a rhetorical question but please feel free to answer it)
Do Geithner and Liddy and any of these other so-called Masters of the Universe understand how incredibly stupid they sound when they talk about how necessary it is to retain the “best and the brightest” when anyone with a functioning brain sees that the “best and brightest” actually created the mess and that it shows they aren’t all that smart after all?
Albert,
I can’t see why we don’t just own up to the fact that the banks are bankrupt and put them out of our misery. This is what you are supposed to do with a bankrupt company.
Six months ago, Paulson, Bernanke, and Geithner all thought it was just fine to have an uncontolled bankruptcy with Lehman. Now we have this idea that we have to honor all of the banks debts. Where did this come from? If we do, then I want my mother to step in and micromanage Citi, Goldman, Morgan Stanley and the rest. If they are the taxpayers babies, then we have to treat the banks and the bankers like the babies they are.
Welcome Dean. There’s a sense here that the US Gov hasn’t done basic due diligence, either to determine the real condition (and interconnections) at AIG or conditions/history/value of toxic bank assets. Is this fear genuine, and if so, shouldn’t doing that be a first priority? Is that something Geithner should be asked?
In 1932 the Banksters put together a similar Geithner Fund called ”Stars and Stripes Forever”. This hoax was, and is, built on propping up Zombie Banks like: Citibank, Wells Fargo, JP Morgan, and Bank of America (which should be called DOA). The funds were/are supposed to prop up worthless investments: in the 1920’s, National City Bank employed 1900 bond salesmen to push worthless bonds from various countries like Mexico and Hungary.
35 banks pumped $100 million into The ”Stars and Stripes Forever” Bond fund to buy these worthless assets at inflated prices from investors. Needless to say, it failed, as will the Geithner Fund.
These Banksters should be taken over by the FDIC in bankruptcy receivership, and the healthy portion of their banks should remain open to the public during standard reorganization. Trillions of derivative contracts should be abrogated as failing the test of Glass-Steagall law, which should be readopted as emergency measure by Congress.
President Obama: fire Summers, and give Geithner a clerk position in the Treasury Department, and assign him to read Alexander Hamilton’s Report on Manufactures and Report on Credit, and Larouche’s Homeowners and Bank Protection Act.
Congress passed the Glass Steagall Act in 1933, and broke up JP Morgan bank in 1935.
Thanks Southern Dragon,
dakine01,
my guess is that Geithner and Liddy are in such a different world that they really think that the people who drove AIG, CITI, and the economy into thr ground are very special brilliant people who deserve multimillion dollar salaries. I am sure these are the only people with whom they associate.
It seems Treasury picks and chooses who fails and who doesn’t. Would you agree? Does it seem to you arbitrary? If now, why not? Short answers would be acceptable. :)
I’m trying to understand the situation with the CDSs and Geithner’s new plan. Are we potentially paying out a second time for things we’ve already paid off at full value?
As a technical note, there is a “reply” button in the lower right of each comment. Click Reply and it will pre-fill the commenter name and comment number to whom you are replying (save a few key-strokes in typing)
Why didn’t Washington Mutual get bailed out?
It seems that on the face of it, they will never get Humpty-Dumpty back together again, so isn’t there a real value in facing up to the losses and getting on with it?
I mean the only value I can see in prolonging the misery is based in the criminal notion that they can pawn this stuff off on the taxpayers.
In your view, is there any other possibilty?
Scarecrow,
I am not sure if the Feds did due diligence at AIG, but I certainly have some questions I would like to know the answer to, most importantly why they paid off the nominal value of CDS when the bonds had not defaulted.
There is a serious question about what the government is doing with AIG. What we care about is the counterparties, not AIG (or at least its financial products division), but we could get money to the counterparties through other channels. This would also have the advantage (to my mind) that we would then get something in return.
(btw, Goldman claims it didn’t need the $12 billion that we gave them through AIG — it was hedged elsewhere. Maybe we should the money back then.)
The constitution grants Congress control of the currency. Now that the executive has basically enfolded the Fed into the Treasury and are directing the use of funds, is it unconstitutional? And should Congress therefore have the right to audit through the GAO?
Is there a point at which success or failure will be undeniable?
i am seeing some standard-issue Obama and the Magical Bank Plan arguments out there today, claiming that see, critics Just Don’t Understand – we’ll try this, and if it doesn’t work, well then, nationalization will be a snap!
but i wonder whose definition of “doesn’t work” we’ll be using, what will have to go wrong to get there, and what resources we’ll have left at that point to try to get things working again?
they did arrange a takeover. The point is that the bondholders and other creditors didn’t take a hit. that only happened with Lehman.
good question, it would be nice to see a full accounting that explained each of the major payoffs for AIG. (Say the ones involving $100 million or more).
How does, if in fact it does, the recently announced mortgage bailout plan impact the TALF plan?
for the bank plan, the definition of working would be whether they restored solvency. There can obviously be a lot of games around that measure, but we will have some gauges (e.g. can they borrow in credit markets without government guarantees) that will give us a decent measure.
If a “normal” bank were insolvent, FDIC could take it over and begin dealing with its assets, etc. That’s a statutory function. But with the Geithner plan, FDIC’s is going to be lending huge sums of money to PPIP to help purchase assets from zombie banks. This is not a statutory function. Does this create a conflict for FDIC on how it regards/carries out its take-over responsibilities? And what have you heard of FDIC’s reluctance, if any, to get pulled into this conflict?
The mortgage bailout plan meant more money for banks. Moody’s upgraded a number of mortgage backed securities after getting the details of the plan. The plan will help some homeowners stay in their homes, but remember, the checks go to the banks.
Welcome Back Dean Baker,
fyi – via your reporting and commentary, I simply dismiss any of the “very serious people” who speak of ‘liquidity’ in these cases. I grasp my wallet a little tighter as well.
Yes, but won’t it reduce the percentage of defaults and in so doing impact the value of the mortgage backed securities?
We are clearly getting the FDIC into uncharted territory with this plan. I worry that they lack the personnel to effectively monitor the plan. Some amount of corruption and abuse in inevitable in any large scale program, but I worry that this plan will see more than its normal share both because it is so big and the oversight agency has little expertise with this sort of program.
Dean,
Did you see the story in the NY Times Dealbook about how the GM Bondholders were balking at re-doing things as “they wanted everyone to share the pain.”
I realize it is small potatos compared to the Financial markets but can we lump these bondholders in a bin marked clueless along with the Masters of the Universe?
Given that the government mandated that the auto makers re-negotiate their labor contracts in order to receive bailout funds and create road map plans leading to a way out of the mess, how do we get Washington to understand that we DO see the double standard in treatment between auto and financial and that it reinforces that the only folks they care about are the moneyed interests?
Yes, it will reduce the defaults. The government is paying a portion of the mortgage. This means that banks will get more money on average from their mortgages than a situation in which the government wasn’t paying a portion of the tab, hence the reason for Moody’s upgrade.
The GM bondholders were probably just confused and thought they owned bank bonds. Someone just has to explain to them that the auto industry didn’t contribute enough to political campaigns, so they will have to accept haircuts on their bonds.
since liquidity seems to be one of the problems facing our economy I would like to know why the government didn’t simply make funds avaialble for loans only and allow banks a commision rather then giving banks funds and expecting them to use those funds for loans.
I don’t understand the accounting wrt to the payoffs at nominal value. I thought that upon some triggering event wrt a CDS, the insurer (AIG) had to post more collateral. Does that mean they pay off the entire amount, or just pay some higher percentage than before, to continue to ensure eventual pay off?
wrt Goldman, it may claim it had other hedges to cover potential non-payment by AIG, but it’s provided no evidence that those other hedges were still viable. Presumably, the whole chain has been weakened. It may not matter for now, but it’s annoying these guys get to pretend they don’t need the money. I guess their CEO didn’t need to be sitting in the meetings when Paulson et al decided on TARP either.
Yours is one of the most lucid comments based on historical fact.
Warren Buffet’s fund lost bigtime and his deal was that he had to have quality prefferred stock not toxic paper.
Why should the taxpayers but investors bad debt for 97% of the supposed highest value when no one else will touch it? Dean?
I had WaMu in my Roth. It was wiped out. ZERO.
AIG would just have to post collateral to equal any losses given the current market valuations.
As far as Goldman’s claim of other hedges, I don’t believe them.
stock, not bonds.
Dean — thank you so much for coming by to talk economics shop with us today. I’m concerned about the apparent lack of due diligence being done in terms of potential fraudulent valuations and other hinky accounting practices on some of the CDSs.
Any thoughts on how the public’s interest can best be served and how to increase transparency on this?
The government should be trying to expand lending that doesn’t have to go through the zombies. To some extent the Fed has done this with some of its new loan facilities, but it could go further. We should also ask for greater transparency in these facilities.
Thanks for the point about no questions being dumb. Very nice touch, Jane.
I do not think I have seen a printed word or heard anyone suggest that Joe Cassano is one of the best and the brightest. Does that appellation pertain to Robert Rubin and the Clintons, et.al and the Private Litigation Securities Reform Act signed by the Clintons?
What we are confronting is a systemic problem which Obama can do little about.
Dean… thanks so much for coming to answer our questions and to aid in elucidating wtf is really going on.
My questions are of a bigger picture:
1) The timing of the “collapse” with the end of the Bush admin seems highly suspicious at best. Do you think that this was all part of a bigger plan to rape and pillage as much as possible from the Treasury dept before Bush left office? It appears to me that they used Paulson to hold Congress hostage to get seemingly unlimited billions of dollars into their coffers.. heads they win, tails they win.
2) If #1 is yes, why is Obama continuing the raping and pillaging? Are the potential ramifications of a failed AIG, with tentacles in !130 countries, so big that there is no other option?
Thanks again.
We should demand fuller accounting. They do respond to pressure. After all, a week ago we didn’t know anything about what had happened to AIG’s billions.
It helps that the Obama administration is officially committed to transparency as a matter of policy. This has been true in the case of the stimulus and the budget, but not with the TARP and certainly not the Fed’s special lending facilities.
He can’t do it alone. The point is to give him no alternative, just as the Wall Street boys are trying to give him no alternative.
thanks for the name of that act.
I don’t see how today’s plan is going to help lending on Main Street. Won’t it just help the banks get back to their own business as usual but still keep lending restricted for eveyone else?
Given the current market valuations, aren’t the value of these securities damn close to zero?
I may have misread things — and God knows the business reporters have been very loose with their language (buying? lending? paying off? guaranteeing?) — but I thought we were basically giving AIG the big, big bucks to make those collateral payments, not buying the CDSs themselves.
I can’t imagine that the Bush crew could have had sufficient control of events to engineer the timing. (if they did, they would have waited until after the election.) In some ways this does work to President Obama’s benefit. People are willing to give him a lot of running room to carry through with things like health care reform and addressing climate change. It would be an incredible tragedy if a very promising domestic agenda got derailed by this Wall Street nonsense.
dean – what do you think summers role is? would it help if he were out? if so, who would you like to see in that position (present company excepted *g*)?
That doesn’t mean it will get an answer.
Dean I just added your blog to my “favorites”.
I guess I consider myself something of a “rube” on much of this but it seems like much of the whole CDS’s market sounds like something you find in Las Vegas. Gambling is OK by me but you do it on your own dime. Why should the taxpayer be stuck with the bill?
That’s largely right, although if really restored the banks to solvency, it could free up money for lending. I think it is unlikely to accomplish this goal.
Part of the problem though with the Fed — at least from what I know of it — as that transparency has never been part of its culture. They’ve always operated in secret in terms of short-term loans and such for the very reason that leaking the information out was thought to be a signal to competitors that the company needing short-term assistance might be ripe for a forced takeover.
In this case, though, with so much public money on the line, might they have to change their SOPs? And, if so, what are the odds that we’ll be successful in trying to force more accountability from Bernanke and Co. The hearings last week were an eye-opener in terms of how little information even Treasury was getting on some issues from the Fed. I would think that some cross-talk ought to be occurring there, at the very least.
At last week’s hearing, Liddy couldn’t find his way around a single page of tax accounting for AIG. I’m sure these people are not special or bright. That’s part of the problem. It’s smoke and mirrors. And anything about money can be very confusing because many people carry some emotional response. That’s why all the complixity works to confuse, if you ask me.
I assume that Summers has played a central role in planning this deal.
Dean, you make an interesting distinction between bond holders and non-bond holders (the latter I suppose are just gambling and probably short-sellers?). Is there some practical way (e.g. via loan tapes or whatever) to distinguish between the two enough to make two classes of CDS, and thus to evaluate relative status?
Before, it was the Iraq War nonsense. Nonsense is the order of day, it seems.
I think the Fed can be pressured right now. They have a lot to answer for. Also, it is important to remember, they are a creature of Congress (as much as they like to imagine otherwise). This is our money, we should know where it’s going.
It is striking that the same people who denounced cronyism and the lack of transparency back in the days of the East Asian bailout are now practicing it themselves here.
Thank you…. okay, I will take off my tinfoil hat! (which I only reluctantly put on…)
I appreciate Obama’s healthcare agenda (if it can possibly get passed… seems doubtful to moi) and other progressive programs…
But continuing Bush’s course with the financial mess seems to overshadow everything else, at least to me.
I never in a million years thought he would do that and as Bill Moyers said have “republican-light financial advisers.”
Continuing the course with Geithner/Summers is what I just.do.not.get. Toughts please?
It would be nice if someone had to occasionally face consequences for their actions. Unfortunately, in this economy, it is only the dishwashers and the custodians who can be held accountability. The economists, the bankers, and the Pentagon crew can be wrong every day of the week and it never gets them fired or even costs them a promotion.
So Obama has to be ‘made’ to do the right thing, in the same way FDR requested that he be made to do the right thing?
If I could believe that, it would relieve a bit of the pain, and perhaps illuminate a way forward.
Dean @ 50:
Thanks! When in your view will/would we have a sign (and what would that be) to be able to say ”see, it didn’t work ~ lending on Main Street has not been restored” and push for another approach??
Obama did have a lot of support from the financial industry.
we probably will have to give it 6 months or so. Maybe we can pronounce death after 4 months if people are angry enough.
alank @ 48: lol!!!!!
True for you, but there’s always a major distraction from the main monkey business.
Dean Baker: I have three simple questions.
What will success look like?
What will failure look like?
In what time frame would you expect we might be able to tell the difference?
I don’t have a question but I wanted to say thank you for participating in this forum today, Dean Baker, and for your continued fine analysis of the crisis.
“The economists, the bankers, and the Pentagon crew can be wrong every day of the week and it never gets them fired or even costs them a promotion.”
When Krugman was here, he said being wrong was a requirement in order to get the job.
he has already changed course in response to pressure. He had plans to create a Social Security commission that would issue recommendations to Congress that would be “fast-tracked” instead of being subject to the normal House-Senate procedures. Many groups working on SS jumped on Obama and he abandoned the plan (for now).
yep
Six months from when all that started (the Paulson plan) would be coming up pretty soon. I seem to remember quite a few economists predicting that TARP (I) wasn’t big enough. Do you mean six months after the seemingly inevitable failure of TARP II?
Success would be the banks are solvent and start lending and the government makes money, or at least does not loss much.
Failure is the banks remain zombies, some hedge fund guys make a killing (they would have bought some of this junk in any case — the government just gave them a huge subsidy to do it), and the government takes a big hit on its loans/investment.
I think we will know the general direction in 4-6 months.
I’m hoping people are angry enough that this gets derailed sooner … and there are more revelations every day so that is very *helpful.*
What I saw on 60 minutes is that Obama does have to have a dance/converstion with Wall Street. If he had done what we want right out of the gate it would have been fairer but if all of Wall Street ended up being against him becuase they could see that he hated them, we would have lost the country that way, too.
Still it lets Wall Street get away with more while we ”work” this out. I hate the unfairness. That has got to change. And because that is so hard wired I see it continuing to feed the anger.
Doesn’t hurt that Mark Penn is doing PR for AIG. Fail.
yes
Ultimately, it seems to me the only solution to all this “nonsense” is to somehow stop the “pay to play” basis of conducting Washington business.
But it is so entrenched, I don’t see campaign finance reform ever happening… the powers that be will never relinquish their grip on the politicians/taxpayer money.
Do you agree?
:P
From AIG’s 10-K report, it appears to have cleared most of its mortgage related CDS portfolio. It still has $305 billion in other CDSs and something like $234 billion of these are to back up the reserves of European banks (which have been taking big losses). The rest of its $1.6 trillion AIGFP derivatives portfolio things like credit and currency swaps that it hedged both sides of. So it looks like their could still be substantial losses from AIGFP.
OTOH we have heard in the last few days that AIG used a shell company to internally re-insure a lot of its insurance businesses and therefore can experience a lot of losses on its insurance side as well.
What do you think of all this? And what do you think of Goldman, one of the great villains in all this, having its pawprints all over AIG, and pretty much everything else?
My own feeling is that being wrong in regard to what is really going on isn’t a problem, but being wrong according to one’s peers is a problem. In this case, there’s a rather wide gulf between those two conditions.
I haven’t heard anything out of him lately. Perhaps he’s been disappeared….
Oh, I do have a question.
What do you make of the huge increase in insider lending by BofA? Is there any reason why directors should have a huge need for loans except to cover margin calls? Has anyone observed any new or simply expanded businesses owned by BofA directors?
Again, I know this is relatively small potatoes and may be the new shiny object, but people seem to understand the small scale that benefits a few clueless insiders better than the huge scope of the overall disaster.
it will be very hard. But, the Obama campaign did raise a huge amount of money from ordinary people. This means that it could be possible, in principle, to raise enough money to run for office without going to the rich boys and girls. Of course, Obama is an extraordinary political figure, so there probably are not a lot of politicians who could have the same sort of success in this area.
Could failure also be a Treasury bubble-burst?
Ugh. So we won’t even start to deal with this seriously until Fall, if even then. Sadly, I feel you’re probably right, which tells me that we’re screwed.
I keep wondering what all the trillions of dollars going to restore liquidity will do in the long run to purchasing power. How bad will inflation be in 2011? Will the massive money pumping operation be reversible?
I’m also wondering about the underlying fraud and malfeasance. I know it’s there. And I’m not thinking of the illegal things that have been made ”perfectly legal” by the fools in Congress.
How does possible actionable wrongdoing change all this? What potential wrongdoing would kill this plan if we knew or could find out or heavens, if investigations were already underway?
And what happens if we find out about wrongdoing a year from now?
in 4-6 months there will be another paulson-type bailout plan and we will be asked to give the “new” approach 6 months before passing judgment.
if you read atrios, you may be familiar with the concept of a “friedman unit“
at the end of march it will be 6 months since TARP 1. we don’t need more versions of cash for trash looting to say “NO MORE!”
I would guess that there are many more losses yet to come at AIG, but this is based more on suspicion than the result of studying their books. I am certain that Goldman was up to its neck in much of AIG’s dealings. Clearly the two companies had extensive financial ties and I gather than Goldman knows who it is doing business with.
AIG has been playing at this game of making up independent reinsurers for donkey years with seeming impunity.
On a theoretical note, how can Geithner hope to re-inflate the housing bubble with this goofy plan and expect the supposedly newly solvent banks to engage in productive lending? It seems to me that in the few cases where some money has sloshed around into lending it has been for more speculation (the oil markets recently) or big unproductive mergers (as in the Wyeth deal)
I am afraid that i have to slip out a bit early.
thanks everyone, I enjoyed the conversation.
Dean
Thanks Dean – an honor to have you here.
My question: it appears to me that we have an upside-down pyramid, in which :
– the bottom layer = houses; the housing market.
– the middle layer = the market for financial services (bank loan officers, title agents, realtors, etc); the financial services market.
——- The middle layer is about 4x as large in monetary terms as the bottom layer.
– the top layer = the financial markets, the layer of hedge funds, offshore banks, CDOs and other ‘insurance-based derivatives’, investment banks like Goldman Sachs and banking-insurance behemoths like Citigroup.
——- This top layer grew to be about 40x the size of the middle layer.
For each ‘house’ at the bottom layer, there is a direct linkage to the number of realtors, title agents, loan officers, and appraiser per house. It is larger than 1 per house, because houses can be sold multiple times. Therefore, this layer was viewed by government as an ‘economic driver’ for financial SERVICES.
But for each ‘financial market instrument’ — each new CDO, each new CDS, each time that Goldman Sachs bought a hedge from AIG that houses in Tranch 31285 would not default, Citigroup could also have bought a ‘hedge’ that Tranch 31285 would not default.
And AIG could have sold 20, or 200, 0r 2000 of those ‘financial instruments’ to parties who wanted ‘insurance’ that Tranch 31285 would not default. This was very lucrative for AIG because the CDOs could generate a potentially infinite number of ‘insurance premiums’.
Similarly, this process could be repeated for endless numbers of Tranches, from Tranch 00001 to Tranch 99999, to offer an example. So a potentially infinite number of ‘CDOs’, or ‘insurance against default’ premiums could be generated by this system.
BUT — !! — this system exists ONLY in the ‘top layer’.
It is purely, solely about financial markets.
This is now completely divorced from what most of us would call ‘reality’, BUT it contains a hidden risk: there may be 8,367 ‘hedges’ placed on the liklihood that Tranch 31285 will default.
So imagine getting infinite ‘insurance premiums’ because in your financial market, you are hedging bets among endless numbers of entities. There is no limit on the number of ‘bets’ placed against any single mortgage.
And if Traunch 31285 does happen to default, then AIG would be contractually obligated to pay out on 8,367 ‘hedges’, each of which is a customized contract, and each of which may pay out at a different rate. So it’s not complicated to see that these clowns are in wayyyyyyy over the number of stars in the galaxy, at least potentially.
Because the financial markets have become ‘uncoupled’, so to speak, from the actual number of homes, or home sales, or mortgages.
The complexity of all this is so vast that, despite the very complex math used to ‘model’ the liklihood of default in Tranch 31285, the modeling — even with supercomputers and ‘the smartest guys in the CDO risk management mathematical modeling shop’ — was not accurate to the real world.
So Geithner’s plan does not actually protect mortgages.
Never has; never will.
Neither did Paulson’s.
The 1930s era was concerned about protecting mortgages and banks.
The 2008-09 era is trying to save the financial markets. It’s trying to save that third layer, a layer infinitely expandable via Gaussian copula functions. Until someone calls bullshit, or a Tranch defaults.
Am I correct in viewing this as a LAYER of markets, like an inverted pyramid?
Am I correct in assessing the relative size of one layer to another?
Am I correct that this is about saving the FINANCIAL SERVICES MARKET, which are the hedge funds, Wall Street, global finance, and pension funds?
Thanks if you are able to get time to answer any or all of my items.
And even if you aren’t able to — thanks anyway for trying to see things clearly.
Dean, thanks so much for being here today as always. You always make things easier to understand.
Let’s all Digg this great post!
Thanks for being here and answering our questions.
Cheers. Toodily pip!
Correction;
It would be nice if someone had to occasionally face consequences for their actions. Unfortunately, in this economy, it is only the dishwashers and the custodians who can be held accountability. The economists, the Tankers, and the Pentagon crew can be wrong every day of the week and it never gets them fired or even costs them a promotion.
Jane… thanks for setting this up.
wow.. AEI’s trying to put a knife into Geithner. I wonder what’s going on, if the rethug fiscalists (who are one and the same with the bank CEOs) are gunning for him. The commentary, linked below, puts forward rethug names as potential replacements (Boskin and Hubbard). Clearly, they want things to be worse, but why, if Summers and Geithner are giving them anything and everything they could possibly want? Of course, they may just want to sow chaos. Color me just a tad confused.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/…..P1AdNu9DtY
Thanks Dean!!
I was told there would be too long a wait for infrastructure creating an actual federal bank, what do you think of that critism of the plan you suggest
Aside from a few regional banks and maybe some sovereign wealth funds, I don’t think any of the players in our financial system are really solvent anymore.
The private equity and hedge funds are almost certainly as insolvent as the banks. The pension funds are riven with fraud and I’m not sure where they are in terms of insolvency. Everyone keeps pointing to all the money in Money Markets but if they were doing so great why do they need so much support from the Fed, and wouldn’t they need even more if whoever has funds with them started pulling money out of them to invest in Geithner’s wacky schemes?
some advice from sweden (via naked capitalism):
Thanks for coming by, Dean. I learned quite a bit.
Rick Sanchez et al on CNN already calling bullshit: ”of course the markets love the plan … incredible investment opportunity … cash for trash” and ”taxpayer takes all the risk.”
Good, very good. Keep it up fellas!
Geitner and Summers are very valuable because their bosses are getting what they want, but they are poised to become even more valuable because they present a focus for a right-wing populist backlash which the rethugs are hoping to ride back into power.
Dean
The damage to the Onama agenda healtcare and green energy will be huge all capital going to cover the bad bets (Toxiac assest)…none left fo the constructive programs. That is the impact.
Can that be reversed?
they’re not so much wacky as, well, theft. so far his schemes are rather transparent, IMO. His proposals were the hot topic among my banking ex-colleagues this weekend.. they’re all planning on laughing all the way to.. the bank.
I should say that bondholders like PIMCO still appear to be doing OK but that too is only because they seem to have avoided sharing in the losses for I am not sure what reason.
CNN: ”Goldman Sachs is going to make a killing. Again.”
That strikes me as an accurate formulation. Much of our influence comes from our economy. If we seem to be self-destructing, people will be less inclined to listen to us, because we’re less likely to be able to help (or hurt) them. In fact, on the hurting side of things, the less they have to do with our banks right now, the better off they are probably going to be.
A lack of American leadership on this will simply justify other countries in going their own way. This “every man for himself” sentiment is already out there and will only be strengthened by stupid plans like Geithner’s.
It seems that the only people who get punished are whistle blowers like Joe Wilson or Bunny Greenhouse.
I’ve been reading Brad Delong’s assessment of the Geithner plan. He seems to be a lot more sanguine than we are. I hope he’s right, because it’s clear we’re going to be following it for a while longer.
Phoenix Woman upstairs
BTW Treasury’s fact sheet on the Geithner plan can be found here:
http://www.treas.gov/press/rel….._sheet.pdf
This is how it describes its Public Private partnerships:
I don’t see anyone bidding 84% of the face value on this crap. Does Geihner seriously think anyone would?
Part of the reason for my response @ 77. The more general class of people who are “wrong” in the peer group are the folks who disagree, but don’t necessarily have to blow a whistle. There’s less risk in that case, but no one’s going to put you in charge, either. That’s why these folks don’t listen to Krugman, Roubini, et. al. They were “wrong”. It doesn’t matter that they understood reality much better than the peer group did.
cujo – yep.
hugh – i think we are the leaders in the “every man for himself” sentiment. not the kind of leadership i would wish for.
Possible stupid question, which isn’t stupid because there are no stupid questions?
I just had a person who works in finance ranting at me that I should “read the history of Sweden’s financial crisis. Because that’s what will work for us, not what Japan did.”
I have my own misgivings about this, aside from the fact I was nearly strangled by this person. Anyone have a take on this assertion?
I could almost support the toxic asset plan if it was accompanied by the following provisions:
- fairness opinions issued by the GAO or comparable independent agency, saying that this deal (and the pro forma valuations of newly created securities it implies) makes sense from a taxpayer perspective
- warrants attached to the newly created security will require issuing entities to grant additional common stock to the treasury in return for each dollar of toxic asset swapped and sold on to new investors. Should the fully diluted % of government ownership exceed, say 67%, then nationalization will automatically occur.
- an agreement that the new investors (hedge funds, those banks that hold their own swapped securities, etc) must return all gains relating to the newly created hybrid securities, including deferred gains, to the treasury, beyond, say, proxy treasury security + fixed basis point profit (say 2% per annum); after all, we’re doing this to fix a problem, not to create the next big-banking-boom
- gains cannot be used to calculate bonuses and all bonuses, including all deferred grants, of any and all issuing or investor entities are capped at, say $150,000
- the new securities will be tranched to a portfolio of fixed terms, after which they will be retired by the treasury, on some reasonable timeframe (say average waited tenor of 10 years). Liquidity will be limited to exchanges among designated qualified investors, and the treasury itself will serve as market-maker for the new securities.
Yeah, yea, I know, all of this amounts to socialism, but, hey, they broke it, they live with the consequences.
Only someone who was very young. It would take a hell of a long time for that kind of investment to pay off, assuming it ever did.
I don’t understand step 4. How does guaranteeing $72 of financing necessarily equate to $12? Perhaps I really don’t understand step 2. Are we taxpayers providing that equity?
Jane, Dean Baker voiced one of my own thoughts when he said that Obama’s economic team associated only with those of like mind, allowing no dissenters.
Obama has repeatedly said that he listens to all sides of an issue, then makes his own decisions. I would like to see Obama convene a long meeting with a group of what John Kenneth Galbraith called the exoteric economists,(i.e., D. Baker, Krugman, Stiglitz, Roubini, James K. Galbraith, and others) at which that group presents a critique of the meltdown and their ideas for a plan or plans to work our way out of it.
I may have missed it, but I’ve seen no indication that Obama even acknowledges that there is a large group of economists of the real and practical and their supporters who have sound principles of economy in their argument.
I would gladly sign and support a petition to demand that Obama convene such a meeting and hear ‘our’ group out.
i don’t trust delong. imo he is a defender of the establishment status quo. (see my links and wigwam’s diary). i used to read delong’s blog every day. finally gave up when the narrow mindedness and bs got to much for me.
This may be a very superficial understanding (ok, it will be a superficial understanding) but I think the “Japan Plan” that was railed about is based on how Japan handled a similar crisis. My understanding is they artificially propped things up and have wound up with years and years of flat economy that hasn’t really done all that much.
When Sweden was faced with the problem, I understand they did a fairly immediate and robust nationalization deal with short term pain but long term get it over with affects that have left their economy in decent shape.
Or I might be an idiot and not understand it aat all.
It’s been the preferred plan of quite a few economists. Some background here. The Swedes, as I understand it, took over their banks, made them healthy, and then returned them to private ownership. Details hazy, to me anyway. Japan’s plan was similar to Geithner’s.
Just saw Selise’s link. And wanted to correct my question. This finance person who breathed toxic fumes on me was actually defending Geithner’s toxic asset/hedge fund solution saying it bore comparison with Sweden and was the right course.
Thanks. I appreciate you’re answering me. I think this person was defending hedge funds though. I started to criticize hedge funds, and “Sweden, read about Sweden, not Japan” is the kind of response I got in the middle of some kind of tirade.
That 2003 link is certainly an example of the sort of thinking I was referring to earlier (@ 77 and @ 112). It almost seems that Delong is saying Steiglitz was wrong because the group said so.
Now I should go read the other link, I suppose, but I know how attention drifts to new threads here…
So I guess the question is, are we following the Swedish plan or not. The person I talked to seems to think we are. It’s stupid. I will try to do some reading. But just a glance at Selise’s link tells me we are doing thing woefully differently and Geithner is not the guru some may say he is.
I must not understand. I never would have never described the Swedish action regarding their banks as a hedge fund.
I don’t have the links handy but I think Ian has done a number of posts where he has compared the actions of Geithner and such to being far more like the Japan plans than to the Swedish plans.
But those Swedish, you have to watch out for them cuz they have things like universal health care and other socialist activities that make a real ‘merikan shiver and quake.
forgot to mention the The Commission of Experts of the President of the UN General Assembly on Reforms of the International Monetary and Financial System. don’t know where it will go (expect that in the absence of american “leadership”, it may get more attention (certainly there are small developing countries that, with good reason, do not trust us and would like to see some more democratic alternative).
the only other attempts at coordination i see are regional – but i’m very likely missing lots.
It seems to me that you have it figured out rather nicely rOFTL. Thanks.
We’re not, because we’re not actually running the banks. That much seems clear. Here’s a quote from an article I linked to at that article of mine:
We aren’t doing that to any extent that I can see. We’re letting the banks continue to run themselves, unless they are actually declared bankrupt. In that case, they go into FDIC receivership, like all bankrupt banks do. One thing that many folks have pointed out is that TARPs I and II could be looked at as a way to not declare the banks bankrupt.
While you’ll have to judge the risks of saying this to an irrational co-worker, it seems clear that he’s wrong.
Yeah I’m reading now. Not Ian welsh. I should probably do a search. But it seems from Selise’s link we are doing things differntly. But it does seem odd that I have heard Friedmanite-typpes and hedge fund defenders defending Geithner’s toxic asset plan as being right and good because it’s “just like the Swede’s did.”
I wondered if you saw the Wall street Journal article last Wednesday or Thursday, I think, suggesting that some of the money going to AIG was being used to reimburse hedge fund speculators.
Also, I’m concerned that people who have some sort of vested interested in the banks will use the Geitner plan to their advantage, bidding up the price of the toxic assets not for the return, but to get leveraged support from the government to keep the banks running, thus artificially inflating the prices for the assets.
Whoops, guess I’m late.
Wandering by again, the $72/$12 split reflects the 6 to 1 ratio in the example and the sum of these comes out to $84. I have not read more deeply into it but the language in the example makes it sound that the FDIC could choose a higher leverage ratio if it wanted to.
The example is illustrative more I think because it seems to reflect a very optimistic assessment of private equity bids on this crap. I mean why choose numbers if they don’t fall into your likely scenario. It would be a little like saying well I think that bids will fall into the 50% range so to simplify things let’s take the example of an 80% bid. It doesn’t scan.
A quick glance at that report suggests that it’s not America’s plan. Reforming the international financial markets and concern for the poor are two things that don’t get much play here.
Thanks that helped. The nationalizaiton part clarifies it for me somewhat.
Um no, I am avoiding this person. I am just trying to make heads or tails.
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Another question.
But why are we letting AIG run itself when 80% . . .
oops. so sorry i did not reply. don’t know enough about the current
paulsongeithner plan to say much. but swede’s experience has been used an example of putting insolvent banks into receivership (i wrote a diary on one aspect of that).it’s actually a lot more complicated because iirc, there was a national bank involved.
also, i don’t see how we can now do it the way the swedes did. if we’d done it early, i think it would have had a much better chance but we keep digging ourselves in deeper and no way now do i advocate the gov taking over all bond holder debt.
think i’ve got some good links on the what was done in sweden somewhere. not sure where they are though… will look for them later today if you are interested.
Yes, I got that part about the optimistic bid forecast. Fifty percent might be optimistic, if these things are as badly documented as I’d been led to believe. It sounds a bit like buying a used car without taking it for a test driver or looking under the hood. The price I’d be willing to pay in such circumstances would be much lower.
And just who could we trust our government to hire? Maybe that’s another difference. The Swedish gov. seemed more attuned to public interest. Our government does not seem to be.
lol. no. not america’s plan. and if anyone takes it seriously larry summers’ head may explode (chaired by stiglitz for one thing)
it’s the proposal being made to the un general assembly (this week i think) – the group has been working for about 6 months on it. G192 baby! (vs G1, G7 or G20).
i don’t see how we can now do it the way the swedes did. if we’d done it early, i think it would have had a much better chance but we keep digging ourselves in deeper and no way now do i advocate the gov taking over all bond holder debt.
What’s changed, substantively? Have we spent so much money that we don’t have enough to nationalize now? We seem to know more about the situation than we did even a month ago, which of course has made it clear that there’s a whole lot more we don’t know. Other than those things, I don’t see what’s changed.
They must be smoking something other than tobacco. As Cujo says, the Swedish plan had banks declare their losses, the government cleaned these up, recapitalized the banks, and then spun them back off into the private sector. This was not a cheap process but it did work.
In the Japanese model, the government did not force banks to acknowledge their losses. This led the banking system to stumble along with no one trusting it. The result was a decade of no growth and a series of ineffective stimuli. This was both expensive and didn’t work.
The only thing I can think of that the people you were talking to are looking at the fact that Sweden didn’t fully nationalize all of its banks. It just did it as needed to get the job done. Maybe they are equating (erroneously) this with what is happening in this country.
It’s okay. Honestly I do feel like an idiot about this financial crisis. I try to do some homework. And do do some homework. But I have not even begun to start connecting the dots. will check out link.
The more I read about how economics is discussed here, the more it reminds me of high school than of science. There are the cool kids (Rubin, Summers, etc.), and then there are the nerds (Krugman, Stiglitz, Roubini). The nerds are right (who has the Nobel prizes, after all?), but that doesn’t matter. They’re still the ones nobody likes.
Economics is a science, and worthy of respect, I suppose. It’s just that you don’t see or hear much that sounds like science. It really sounds more like voodoo, or other forms of religion.
Smoking ego I think.
But no, I think this person was thinking of this
Like we can hire hedge fund people, right? That’s good.
And the fact that we own a lot of AIG and so on and so forth, suggests natinalization, when in fact we do not seem to have a government that vested in public interest that’s running crank. Or maybe crank is all they’re running
Join the club. I’m still trying to figure out what a CDS is. For a while, I kept thinking it meant certificates of deposit, which was wrong and not very helpful.
me too (the idiot part). but the more i read and the more questions i ask, i find i don’t feel so alone in the not knowing department. *g*
This is a chicken and egg thing. We need to control pay-to-play corruption to solve the economic crisis and we need to solve the economic crisis to solve the corruption problem. We have to start somewhere, though, and the economy seems to me to be the place to start. Do it right, and we solve corruption (to the extent possible) as a side effect.
To address corruption we need to address the uneven distribution of wealth in our society. The problem is not money in politics–Mr. Obama’s grass roots efforts and the fund raising for Blue America, etc. demonstrate that. The problem is surplus wealth. When the grassroots donate to a cause, we give up something to do so. This isn’t true with today’s super rich. For them, meddling without loss or consequence is a given of life. After wealth passes a certain point, there is nothing real left to buy anyway, nothing to consume. Losses aren’t noticeable in real terms like starvation or homelessness–they are just blows to the ego. The wealthiest thus have two outlets for their money (if we discount charity, as most of them do): gambling and corruption–in their current forms, CDSs and pay-to-play.
So reducing pay-to-play means haircuts for those with the most financial hair, not those with the least. Just scrap banks as we have known them for 20+ years. Close them, pay off the depositors up to the FDIC limit, and replace the system with direct Federal credit. The pay-to-play players get hurt the hardest.
At the same time, we should press every measure that flattens out income distributions. Sharply progressive taxation. The highest estate taxes possible. More labor unions (starting with Employee Free Choice). Universal single-payer healthcare with progressive premiums. Higher minimum wages. Limits to free trade in the absence of equivalent labor rights and environmental safeguards. Strict limits on executive compensation and expenses in publicly traded companies (via tax and securities laws).
So we need to come up with the opposite of the plan the Wall-Street/Beltway insiders are pushing. The Democratic social agenda comes first. It is the cure for the disease. The financial crisis is just a symptom.
When we are done, we will either have reduced pay-to-play or have brought the cost down to the point where everyone can own his own politician, which is almost as good. Redistributed wealth will again be in the hands of those who produce it and consume it.
And, lest anyone wonder, I am not a socialist. I’m a businessman who believes in the free market. But unlike the free(-for-all) marketers in the GOP, I’ve actually read some Adam Smith.
We have discussed this in the past. A fast effective reaction could have headed off the housing bubble in 2003-2004 before it ever really got started. By 2006, a much larger action would have been required. It would have been much more expensive but it might have kept the bubble from bursting catastrophically. In August 2007, only a massive and very expensive intervention could have turned things around but at least most homeowners and the economy scarred maybe but otherwise OK. When the financial meltdown happened in September 2008, we were at a needed level of action that required an immediate takeover of pretty much the entire financial system: the banks, money markets, and pension funds and we would have had to wipe out most hedge and private equity funds. In March 2009, with large unfocused Fed programs, too small stimulus, too little aid to homeowners, multiple dopey expensive bailouts of a corrupt and deeply dysfunctional, even non-functional financial system, the needed reaction is on par with what was needed during the Great Depression.
All this is to show that at each stage of this crisis the costs and scale of the interventions increase essentially exponentially.
Oh jeez. Confession. I did a wikipedia read on that. And I didn’t really connect all the dots, because every time a word came up I was unfamiliar with( X times), I had to clink on taht link and then by that time I was X number of links away from the orginal entry on CDS and never ended up reading the full entry.
No, in the context of finance, truthfully sometimes I feel like I am 10 years old and have just picked up a scholarly medical journal and I am stumbling over ever other word.
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I am going to print out some of your explanations on Swede v. US. finance crisis and just leave it in the common printer. No malice intended.
The light dawns. From Wikipedia:
Someone was referring to this earlier. The government could, theoretically at least, be paying off CDSs that were just something of the form of “betcha AIG isn’t going to be able to pay someday” bets. We aren’t a casino. At least, if we are we want to make money on this deal so we can keep the neon lights burning.
Well that made sense in Sweden because the scale of the banking system was a lot smaller. So the government could delegate at the same time it could keep a relatively close watch over what was going on.
The only way you could get that degree of oversight in this country is if in fact those implementing the nationalization were government employees, and that means hiring them. There have been tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of jobs lost in the banking sector so there are probably a lot of folks with the expertise to make a nationalization work.
LOL. that is fucking hilarious.
i think the religion part (market fundamentalism or whatever you want to call their dogma) is really just cheap talk for us rubes. they (summers et al.) don’t believe it and never have. but they use cover for having wildly divergent interests than the rest of us (where “us” is ordinary people here and in the rest of the world). people in lots of developing countries figured that out during the ’90s.
I agree with that idea, at least in principle. Perhaps what I should have asked was, what threshold have we crossed that makes nationalizing the banks impractical now that we hadn’t crossed five weeks ago when Richardson and Roubini wrote that it would be a good idea?
CDSs are part insurance policies written without insurance regulations, which would for example require the underwriter to keep sufficient reserves to pay off any claims and they are part bet that something will happen, i.e. you don’t need to own the horse to bet on what it will do.
And could we really trust our government to hire hundreds of thousands of non-crony types.
what’s changed is the the magnitude of the bond losses we, the taxpayers, would have to absorb. the longer this is allowed to continue the greater the losses have become. last estimates i saw were $3-4 trillion, but i don’t think anyone really knows and that was not comprehensive. i want to know what the stakes are and then have the losses apportioned openly and honestly.
I think it is the other way around. By 2006, there was probably no effective solution to what was going on that did not involve a full or partial nationalization of banks. By that point, their exposure through the housing bubble was just too great. Nothing as changed since then to change that. It is just more and more sectors of our economy and of the world’s have become involved and the condition of these has worsened.
They could also keep most of the current employees of the banks on. They’d need to clean out the cruft at the top, and implement auditing procedures. That’s the part that would take time and new people, I think. (For those not sure what I’m talking about, all federal programs have auditing done that goes beyond what these banks have been doing.) But, as you say, there’s a big pool of qualified potential applicants out there.
More like buying a used car without a title.
Actually, they do it all the time, but that process is time-consuming.
Yes, a lot of the accountants and middle managers will just do what they are told to do. What is needed is good managers and leaders in the upper echelons.
As I wrote yesterday, you go talk to the economists who got it right and they will give you connections. Same thing with reporters like Gretchen Morgenson, bloggers like Yves Smith, or Wall Streeters like Meredith Whitney. You talk to them. They give you possibilities and you talk to those and you get more potential candidates. There are a lot of people out there who could be recruited to do this right. The problem is no one has reached out to them.
we can still nationalize (in fact, i think we really have to). but imo there are at least two problems with using the swedish model at the moment:
1. the bond holders are going to have to take some of the loss.
2. we don’t have the resources to do it right now without precipitating a worse crisis (we should have been gearing up for it since bear sterns if not before). so the immediate need is to gear up big time – hire, train and plan. i should say though that hugh disagrees with me on this one (i think he said nationalization could be done by fax).
I would add one ingredient to your presription.
We have to put an end to the notion that corporations should enjoy an equal status with persons.
As I understand it, the SCOTUS opinion that granted corporations personhood, was actually mis-transcribed anyway.
Great. And someone was asking about transparency. And that would be ironing all this who really owns what and at what cost? Am I wrong?
Civil servant. How that word was bandied about in the Bush years. I think a lot of civil servants especially the highest ranking in the Bush administration forgot that they were technically civil servants, and not just making “friends” so they could get a really lucrative job in the private sector, doin some lobbyin’ and things like that.
By fax?
My opinion is somewhere between those extremes. Clearly, there needs to be housecleaning at the top, but that’s not a great many people. The folks underneath, for the most part, will adapt to the new way of doing things, particularly if they know it’s more likely they’ll continue to have jobs if they do. Main problem I see is that any government program needs to be audited, and this one would need that in spades. So, probably thousands of new or transferred GS employees in the long run, a few hundred straight away.
It would have been a very good idea for us to have been gearing up, even so. My bet is that we’re not gearing up even now, which is one of the things that bothers me about this.
To figure it out you have know what all the connections are between the players but you also have to work out what the real value is of the physical assets and the securities written on them. The physical assets have all decreased in value and a lot of the paper is worthless but how much you can’t say until you look at the books instead of trusting what the banks and all the other financial players are saying.
yes. bank examiners are key and we don’t even have enough to do a real stress test. more from william black on that from naked capitalism:
this is one of the things that makes me the most angry. and why i don’t believe anyone in the obama administration (or probably most of congress) actually gives a fuck about corruption or real solutions. if any of them did they would have been yelling about the lack of experienced regulators. it’s a problem that can be fixed – but it someone to actually start doing it.
In a word, no. That’s what they meant, I think.
Just my observation and premised on an ongoing discussion taking place among Chicanos here in the Sonoran Desert. To wit, the national news media has yet to ask the first important question relative to this economic meltdown, and which is, “Which of our Elected Officials in either the House or the Senate have been dabbling in the ‘private placement’ market?”
In asking this question and given the potential responses among the many affirming their behavior, will make Geithner’s Plan easy to accomplish, and will lead to an overall re-education on how to address this economic meltdown. And without knowing of this economic activity, economists cannot factor this behavior into their models, and which puts economists behind the proverbial eight ball.
I am not a fan of either Geithner or Bernake, but, in getting an answer to my above question, resolves some lingering questions on the Role of Government, and eventually on how the government will have perform to unlock the non-existent credit flow and thereby creating consumer demand.
Jaango
see my comment @172. its a very select but very necessary group of people i’m primarily talking about.
I’m not a lawyer. so a question: why are these things enforceable, particularly in the case of the naked variety?
If I sign a contract promising to pay you the value of a neighbor’s house in the event that it burns down in exchange for $100 bucks today, I doubt that either of us could enforce it any more than we could if we simply had a bet on the neighbor’s house. In fact, if I won and the house burned, the arson squad would probably want to talk to me.
Similarly, if you have written contracts that leverage a finite sum into arbitrarily large amounts of imaginary dollars, as the pyramid example above points out, are the contracts enforceable? Can a contract make a fiction (a $100 trillion obligation backed by $1 of real money) into $100 trillion actual dollars, simply through contract law?
Cujo, it’s a social science with a sciencish veneer that comes from calculations that have lots of subroutines, each of which has tons of conditional loops.
All designed by humans who are very susceptible to overvaluing their own intelligence and fail to realize how great a role socialization, ego, and social pressures have in their decision-making processes.
Hence, the introduction of many bugs that hedge funders prefer to view as features. Alas.
If we were not a casino, the feds would say, “We did not realize that CDSs are toxic, viral, and dangerous. We outlaw them as of noon EST today. Tough shit, gamblers. We’re not a casino, and that’s the best we can do because alternatives are too complex, costly, and socially destructive for governments. You put is in the corner; we call bullshit on every damn one of you.”
Instead, we’re a casino.
Yes, there are a great many banks out there and most of their operations and physical plant could be allowed to function pretty much as usual, but certain segments of them (especially of the largest ones) like their real estate and investment divisions you would want to have far greater control over in addition to firing their top management. Companies like Goldman and Morgan Stanley would have to be taken apart and sold off in pieces because they are just too noxious to survive. Conglomerates would have to be broken up too to bring them back under Glass-Steagall.
On the enforcement side, there was a substantial cut to the SEC’s budget in the late ’90s. Few in Congress have been squawking about that, either.
I agree with the notion in that article that part of the problem is prestige – there’s not as much prestige in a civil service job here as there is in other countries. Getting and keeping good people is more difficult. Of course, the government’s current practice of having much of the work that was done by civil servants now being done by contractors hasn’t helped, either. Due to the way the civil service works, GSs can be more independent than contract people. They can say things are screwed up and not lose their jobs.
And yes, understanding the problem is the first step. That is one of the more unsettling parts of this – we don’t seem to have a real handle on what’s going on. Even the experts are saying that. It’s a situation that’s perfect for both fraud and uncorrected mismanagement.
hugh’s here to explain. but this is the conversation i was referring to:
http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/3725
i still maintain faxing won’t work – didn’t work that way during the s&l crisis and i don’t see how it could now. especially given the global nature of the businesses, the non-commercial banking operations (which are the only ones i think we really have the people and plans to do) and possibly most of all, the probably level of fraud involved. but if anyone can give me an historical example to read about, i’d be happy to reconsider.
all that doesn’t mean that most of the company wouldn’t continue to operate with the same people, etc.
That’s the thing the CDSs are treated as private contracts. IANAL, but I would think you could make a case that both parties that entered into the contract failed in their due diligence. So it comes down to if two stupid greedy parties enter into a really dumb contract who if anyone is liable. I don’t have an answer for that.
At the same time, where naked CDSs are concerned I think those can be wiped out simply because not all contracts are legitimate and a naked CDS on its face I don’t think has any legitimacy at all.
My observation: lot of finance people do seem to pick up opinions from each other, possibly telepathically and spout it like apparatchniks, something equivalent to a party line. Whether it’s on hedge funds, UAW or whatever; it seems there’s some kind of echo chamber.But they think they are showing off expertise and not spouting a party line. And that’s just scarier .
And people are bitching at some place like AIG over who gets what bonus and now maybe *whah* they have to give it back. Marie Antoinette. Those people were the same ones who said auto workers were paid too much and its not practical for a company with financial problems to pay that much to workers.
True, but there’s some good research being done, too, I think. I loved the Freakonomics book, partly because the author took as a given that human motivations were the most important thing to understand.
Anyway, it’s not all voodoo. There seem to be a great many pretenders out there. It’s as though we judged biologists by including the work of creationists as part of the science. People use the words and either don’t know what they mean, or expect that you don’t. It’s a young science, at least when compared to the apparent complexity of what they’re trying to understand, so its legitimate practitioners will be wrong more often than one feels comfortable with.
William Black in chat with Jane a couple of flights upstairs on Accountabiity
Good gaia not morgan stanley. That American bedrock. The horror /snark
it’s worse than that at the SEC. i think i originally got this link from naked capitalism:
from the la times (my bold): Madoff tipster Harry Markopolos assails SEC
unfortunately the link now goes to the la times archive. so you’ll have to trust me on it or pay the archive fee. *g*
damn i forgot the time.
thank you!
I find it hard to argue when the possibility of fraud is ever mentioned.
Thanks selise, dakine, cujo and hugh and everyone else. I promise to try and keep up with you guys, and reread links. right now I need to eat or I will get into a hypoglycemic funk.
I think I agree with that. And my comments @183, I guess were aimed at certain finance types.
I agree.
In fact, one reason that I have such a high regard for George Soros is that he appears to have a strong enough ego and a sharp enough intellect to grasp that he won’t be right a fair amount of the time.
I suspect there’s a correlation between his success and his (apparent) ability to keep his ego out of market decisions.
always a great read dean baker…any chance that i could get your comments concerning this?
i would care to note that there has been a long-running[9+ years, i think] website that has been discussing accurately all the corruption in the financial markets.
it’s special focus has been on the US DEPT OF TREASURY, SEC, CFTC, THE FEDERAL RESERVE, AND MAJOR MERCHANT BANKERS[JPMORGAN CHASE, MORGAN STANLEY, CITIGROUP, GOLDMAN] with a concentration on their manipulation of gold and silver prices.
everything that has been happening to the global financial system recently has been discussed at length by bill murphy[author of the site] and his colleagues. on a daily basis for close to a decade[perhaps even longer], bill murphy and his colleagues have written countless letters to members of congress, officials in the us dept of the treasury, officials at the sec, officials at the cftc. i think it accurate to say that those complaints concerning market manipulation were ignored.
it is also important to note that bill murphy and his colleagues have gone to considerable lengths to get the media to “air” the results of their long-term investigations into market manipulation conducted by a conspiracy consisting of merchant bankers, central bankers, us government officials, and the federal reserve system. suffice it to say, the us media at every level[from bloomberg to the wall street journal et alia] spiked the story. for virtually a decade.
it is also important to note that in each day’s observations of financial markets’ manipulation as written by bill murphy and his colleagues, the commentary goes beyond the manipulation of the gold and silver markets. other topics[and this is not an exhaustive list] discussed informatively at length have been naked short selling[especially of junior mining stocks], derivatives, mortgage securitization.
apparently, no business/financial journalist[is there such an animal these days?] bothered to tune into these daily words of investigative financial wisdom. and if they did tune in, somehow they must have then made a decision to keep to themselves what they learned .
if you think i am pulling your leg about what the media decided to ignore, and ignored for years[and is, in a sense, still ignoring], you can go to the site of incredible financial wisdom, LEMETROPOLECAFE.COM, and read the financial history of financial markets’ manipulation/corruption of the george walker bush era.
you will have to pay the man[it is a subscription site], but as i recall, everything bill murphy has written is archived. you can learn what the “officlal” spinmeisters of the media and the bankers and the usgovernment were hiding from the citizenry in this new millennium.
i think it would be accurate to conclude that the media functioned in its reportage concerning the financial markets just as it functioned concerning the purported “offical conspiracy theory” of the events of 11 September 2001 and the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq: as stenographers for the state.
another important site that the media seems to have gone out of its way to ignore
is john williams’ SHADOW GOVERNMENT STATISTICS site [http://www.shadowstats.com]. it is a site dedicated to informing its subscribers how the government manipulates and falsifies economic data…data that the media then disseminates without questioning. for an illustration, the government fudges the numbers so that they can report unemployment levels. as john williams reveals, to get close to a realistic unemployment figure, take the “official” government figure and multiply it by 2.
i can find no element of the mainstream media who seems to care about achieving this level of intellectual honesty[aka truth].
i would recommend that no one characterize john stewart’s broadcast as solely an indictment of cnbc/jim cramer. it must be recognized as an indictment of the complete us government/media conspiracy to report whatever deceptions the us government determines should be forced upon the consciousness of the public.
if you follow the thread from john stewart’s broadcast, i think that one can only conclude that the entirety of the us media[this includes NPR] functions as propaganda outlets for the state.
to change this will require a revolution in how the state controls the media. and how the media bootlicks the state for privilege and power. and oligopoly[if not virtual monopoly].
“small potatos”, “bin marked clueless”?
Are you shopping for a compliment? What’s the price of my compliance?
Do you take plastic? ROFL
Fantastic questions!
Bernanke says his way of managing these loans and whatnot can be pulled back to avoid the worst of the inflation as we’re coming out of this.
Think of it as an insurance policy used to insure someone holding an asset (just like you’d insure your house).
There are two kinds:
regular (where you own the asset being insured) and
naked (where you don’t own the asset –
it’s essentially gambling on someone else’s asset burning down).
Note: just as an insurance policy you take out with Allstate or somebody is an asset to them since you’ll be paying regularly on it, a CDS is asset-like since people pay premiums to keep them up. Thus, they can be bought and sold in the market just like a mortgage, bond, or other asset with a regular stream of cash coming in.
Just the fax ma’am. Was your bank nationalized? Was it a nation which ran it over? What color was it? Could you recognize it in a lineup? Did it have peninsulas or fjords? Did you at least get a new flag and logo?
Heh.
NY wanted to regulate them and Bush required the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (the OCC) to refuse all regulation.
If I remember right they broke precedent or rules which had been in effect since the Civil War era. They had to revert waaay back before even the days of FDR to screw things up.
Go figure.
I suspect a casino is a much more tightly run ship with much tighter regulations and enforcement.