What more is there to say?

Perhaps it is time to reponder my speculation that the difference between the U.S. and Hitler’s Germany is that the U.S. won.

Charles Gibson & his cronies at ABC News seem to think things are going swimmingly. Just go back & watch last week’s evening news reports. Clearly these people documented here are totally wrong.

Thanks Siun. I can’t find words either.

I thought Laith summed up his own experience well.

Dugg.

Laith’s essay is so moving … do you have news of their other writers? are they doing ok?

Funny you should ask. I actually got through to the office last week on IM and we fired up the web cam for a gab fest. But the power went out in Baghdad just as everyone was collecting. I’ve been trying to get up early every day to catch them at the end of the work day, but no luck so far. So far as I know, things are ok, though. But just ok. Employment is a big worry. Especially for the Sunni families…..

Good to hear “Ok” … it must be so hard to handle day in and day out.

In the aftermath of the civil war and the effective partition of the country, do you have any idea how mixed Sunni-Shia families handled it?

It was interesting to hear the president say on 60 Minutes tonight that we need an “exit strategy” for Afghanistan, a tacit admission (of the obvious) that we have been occupying the country without one for the past seven years.

Thanks Siun.. I’m speechless too. But it sure feels like 18 years since I was arrested for protesting our Iraqi Desert Storm invasion. And I don’t remember a day we were not killing or otherwise trying to run their show since.

Did Obama have an Afghan exit strategy? I didn’t see the program.

E that’s a huge question I’m little qualified to answer. I know that Sahar of McClatchy wrote some articles–both on the Inside Iraq blog and for the online bureau–about families almost two years ago. Some folks left the country–or their cities. Some were rejected by one or the other side of the family. Some women were divorced or abandoned. I have no idea of percentages….

No, he merely acknowledged that any future plans regarding our involvement in the region should include one. No cause for optimism, since he stressed the priority that we can’t leave behind a safe haven for terrorists. That suggests to me that we are likely to be there a very long time.

Thanks for giving it a try.

I asked not so much to elicit an answer, but more to raise yet another horrific issue that few seem to focus on. Tragedy upon tragedy.

As near as I can tell, there aren’t any terrorists of significance to the U.S. in Afghanistan. But I wouldn’t expect O to acknowledge that.

He was also referring to Pakistan.

As near as I can tell, there are no terrorists threats to the U.S. in Pakistan either. But I wouldn’t expect O to acknowledge that either. (AQ is a shadow of its former self.)

Of course, if we keep bombing civilians in Pakistan, destabilizing the hated government, we might be able to create a threat to the U.S. O would love that. War prez X3!

Of course, if you were correct, you wouldn’t be able to say so.

have you seen the Rethink Afghanistan Pakistan film … http://rethinkafghanistan.com/

I’ll be doing an update on AFG soon but make sure you watch this in the meantime – Robert Greenwald is heading to Afghanistan and will be blogging and twittering from there.

Oh, I’m sure there were plenty of loose-lipped loud mouths like me in Nazi Germany. The Nazis only bothered with those who were a threat to the state, and I think I’m not in that category in the U.S.

Number One Son said tonight that the army is gearing up big time for a “surge” there this summer.

Hopefully, this, and some of the details, are just scuttlebutt.

Perhaps his thinking is that if we occupy every country that could potentially harbor terrorists we will have zero unemployment in the U.S..

I believe I have seen it already but I will take a look in case I haven’t. Thanks for the link.

Your son’s scuttlebut and the public statements are in concurrance.

Cheney insists that their (BushCo’s)objectives were achieved. Certainly so; the war machine they and his friends owned were fed endless millions of dollars AND the international oil community is walking away with 75% of the oil rights/receipts in the country.

And bank lending wouldn’t be a problem. /s

Don’t think The White Rose really posed that much of a threat to the state…

I read Laith’s essay. I also read the one comment on it. The commenter asked him whether it would have been better, given his experiences for Saddam to still be there since now he (Laith) was ‘free’ to make a pilgrimage to Karbala that he had not been able to make under Saddam.

I thought to myself, I hope that person is not being intentionally cruel. Laith just laid out what life was like under Saddam. And now. Neither were acceptable. I personally think we did more damage by removing him – but I agree with Laith – it wasn’t so much the removal as the complete and total failure to plan the aftermath.

In any case, it brings to mind the totality of all this mess, both in Iraq and in Afghanistan. There are no easy answers. No get out, stay in. No this is better, that is not.

Each are filled with the stories of ordinary people who just want to live their lives and raise their families, in safety.

There are no easy answers to any of this stuff.

It is always the ordinary people who pay the price – and in all the talk of snazzy new counterinsurgency manuals and surges and such, that is always forgotten.

Not denying that every group hounded by the Nazis was not a threat. Only saying that some individuals were not pursued.

My late husband, a 13-year-old Jew when his family left after Krystallnacht in 1938 was just such a person. He was ADD and a real pain in the butt. Yet they managed to get out.

In my original statement (1), I was thinking more about the external consequences of U.S. actions: how many people U.S. actions have slaughtered, for example. Which has to approach the Nazi totals by now. As for internal suppression, there is nothing to stop the prez from doing what Hitler did. But the prez has been able to get away with what he wants without doing that yet. Winning makes many things easier, including control over your internal population.

I agree that there are no easy answers, but I think it is not the U.S.’s job to impose answers on other people. (A policy that started with Native Americans; imperialism with the Monroe Doctrine in 1823. So the history is long.)

To leaders, war is an abstraction. In Woody Allen’s “Love and Death,” during a pitched and bloody battle, Allen’s character pauses to wonder how the carnage must appear to the generals on the hill. Cut to the generals’ POV, as two herds of sheep run towards each other on the field below.

I surely do not understand your pessimism regarding Obama’s feelings on this or how you came to these conclusions.

What I do understand is that he is faced with an almost open revolt by top military brass that began before he was even inaugurated. And if there is one thing he really does NOT need right now is an OK Corral incident involving the top commanders – I’m speaking of Odierno and Petraeus specifically. Obama is handicapped by the fact that he never served in the military – as are most Presidents who have not. (I have never understood why the military followed Bush/Cheney since one was a draft dodger and the other was (and in fact still is) AWOL from a draft-doging service at the time.)

In any case, If he had been a ex-military type, Odierno would already be on an unemployment line and Petraeus, if not there with him would be commanding a base in Nome, Alaska or some such by now. This is why Obama kept Gates, to help tamp this crap down, but it is still a balancing act he is doing. And it doesn’t help that he only has 15 other things on his plate right at the moment that are equally difficult.

While Obama can walk and chew gum, he is more like that twirling plate guy on the old Ed Sullivan Show – the one with the sticks and plates and all the plates are twirling around and he has to keep them all going or they fall off and break. Plates are in danger of falling. One has not fallen yet – but many are very close.

Fer gawdsake, the guy has not been in office for 60 days yet.

Think of U.S. Total Information Awareness, which if you believe the govt, does not exist anymore. Bwahahahahaha. It’s just called something else. If you or I were ever perceived as an enemy of the U.S. govt, we’d be scooped up, locked up, tortured, etc. in a nanosecond.

The somewhat lesser paranoia of the U.S. vs. Nazi Germany stems directly from the fact that Nazi Germany was seriously under attack and the U.S. isn’t. If the U.S. were in the same circumstances, you can bet your life, I would no longer exist. And many worse things would be occurring.

Let’s start from first principles: In the U.S., there is allegedly civilian control of the military. So Obama is in charge if he wants to be.

There are plenty of ex-military like Shinseki and Wilkerson who have revealed reality. So it’s not as though there aren’t any clear paths for Obama to follow.

Yet, he insists on foreswearing the winning issue of his campaign: end the Iraq war. Coupled with an acceleration of the even less winnable Afghan war.

I’ve been a plate twiller (single mother with a high energy job), so I get the reference. In my experience, the only way you can keep all the plates spinning is to understand the fundamentals. O shows no evidence of that.

I am reminded of an experiment performed by quantum physicist John Hagelin. He postulated (based upon similar smaller experiments) that he could reduce the crime rate in Washington DC by 25% through large group meditation. He presented his plan to the DC police chief, who quite predictably laughed at him. Hagelin already had 4000 people from around the globe set to go, which they did. And the crime rate went down by 25% in a very short time, I think it was about 3 months only.

I have also seen the photographs of a Japanese scientist of water droplets. Regular droplets are not anything special. But if you put water into a bottle and then concentrate on sending good messages like love and compassion, the water actually changes into things that look like beautiful snowflakes. If you think bad thoughts, like I hate you, the photo of that one looked like vomit. Yes, it actually had changed color and was disgusting.

Our minds can do powerful things. If we constantly concentrate on the bad stuff, bad stuff will continue to happen. I would just hope that we all would put forward our best and most positive thoughts towards Obama and all the people who are put into the difficult position of having to make these kinds of decisions.

At the same time, we should not stop writing letters and FAXing and calling to make our viewpoints known to whoever needs to hear them. But doing so in a positive way will get better results. IMHO only.

Remember, when a butterfly flaps its wings, the ripples are felt around the world.

I dunno, there are thousands of potential domestic terrorists in right-wing militias, etc. and the government doesn’t scoop them up. One would like to believe they are monitored but I wouldn’t even count on that.

never mind

I don’t suppose that Hitlet scooped up right wing terrorists either, but I don’t know if that’s accurate.

We focus on what DID happen, after the fact. We never think to look at things from the perspective of what wasn’t happening at the time.

Which is why I don’t get “Shock ‘n Awe.”

The Poles (ethnic ancestors on my father’s side) put up a real battle in Warsaw. French even more so. Yet Hitler conquered Poland in 3 weeks, and France in 3 weeks, some month-and-a-half later. Seems to me that’s substantially better than U.S. getting to Baghdad in 3 weeks.

What more is there to say?

War criminals.

Oddly enough, I just recently saw a photo of German mounted cavalry during the invasion, of course they were accompanied by tanks, artillery, the Luftwaffe, etc.. The Polish cavalry who martyred themselves in token resistance were certainly courageous, if somewhat misguided since their sacrifice would not appear to have greatly delayed or lessened the suffering of their compatriots.

nah.. US imperialism is more like the British empire or the Chinese vis-a-vis Tibet… war and conquest borne of a lethal but confused recipe of insecurity, racism/prejudice, ideological intolerance, strategic realpolitik, arrogance, hubris, manifest destiny, misguided zeal, good intentions, greed and corruption.

Well, I certainly wouldn’t argue about the movtivations of U.S. destruction of the rest of humanity. Only that it’s been a scourge on humanity.

The analytical value of comparing the U.S. record to Nazis is to assess the destruction of human life and govt compared to what the Nazis did. The U.S. did it by overthrows and proxy wars, over a longer period, but with quite devastating consequences.

The invasion of Poland was accomplished using battle tactics that hadn’t ever been previously known in co-ordinating armor, airplanes and mechanized infantry.
The invasion of France was based on following a battle plan that had been continuously refined for fifty years.

true.. but it’s still a different model or motivational set than the regional, linear/sequential territorial expansionism of Hitler, Hirohito and Stalin – which relied on the timetested model of progressively annexing, consolidating gains and exploiting one’s neighbors.

The Polish Cavalry went to die for their country’s honor. It was a different world.

Chivalry was not dead… for the first few minutes at least.

And some of those German tanks suffered nasty saber slashes.

Now we can engage our enemies (and wedding parties) by remote control… what progress.

Gnite all.

hehe, if we had used the Hitler/Hirohito/Napoleon model, shrub’s reign would’ve begun with a vote in Alberta to join the US, followed by the annexation of portions of Sonora and Baja Norte, ostensibly to protect American vacation properties and multinational maquiladoras corporations. Toronto would’ve fallen by 2003 and we would’ve been bogged down Stalingrad-style with the siege of Mexico City by the summer of 2005 ;-P.

Viceroy McCain himself would’ve been in the victorious vanguard marching into downtown Toronto….

Odd isn’t it. Thousands dead in a few hours and they’re remembered well.
We struggle to make war in a near-bloodless way, the dead number dozens, and the perception is so different.

G’nite to you

They started illegal wars killing millions, raped the American people of their retirement, their homes, and their financial security not to mention redistributed the wealth and lined the pockets of their families and friends for generations to come. Yup, I’d say mission accomplished.

teddy upstairs

now that you put it that way, there is a certain similarity between shrub and Hapsburg policy in the 16th and 17th centuries: use the spoils of American conquest to borrow to finance mercenary proxy wars of religion in Europe, leaving behind a bankrupted Iberian homeland and global strategic irrelevance by the Peace of Westphalia.

Thank you, Siun. Unfortunately, our adventures into Irak, Afghanistan and Pakistan are nowhere near closure.

Whose dead number in the dozens? Not ours, 4350+ and counting (it’s actually higher than that but that’s the ‘official’ number). Iraqis? Estimates from 100,000 to 1 million. Since we don’t count them. Afghans? No idea. We don’t count them either.

Or, we can go back a ways. 128 dead in the first Gulf War on our side. How many Iraqis? don’t know cuz we don’t count them.

Vietnam. 58,000 of our guys at least. Vietnamese over 2 million.

Somalia

Panama

Grenada

Bosnia

Kosovo

Have I missed any yet?

Perceptions are propaganda – we have been vastly misled. Hiding the coffins coming home, and the wounded. Intensive recruiting in small rural communities so that when something bad happens only a few know about it.

Just because everyone didn’t get mowed down in a hail of bullets as they marched blindly towards one another in the ‘old style’ war doesn’t mean the death toll is any less.

Evening lokywoky.
I was not trying to minimize or disrespect the dead.
If you read through, what I was saying concerned the dead from single drone attacks in contrast to the pitched battles of massed armies in WWII.

I quite understand, and greatly abhor, the way we try to minimize our dead and completely hide the far greater number of people we kill.
But, I do think the death toll to be less, if you add up all the wars you mention, than that of WWII. The dead from that was in the tens of millions.