Zed. Need to be fully informed before commenting.

The same mind set was used for the Iraq war, meaning that those who did not support it wholeheartedly, simply didn’t understand–it was merely a “communications problem” or a lack of salesmanship. “The President needs to make his case,” was the problem.

It is possible to both understand and disagree with certain ideas.

Are women getting abortions not knowing what they’re doing someplace? If so, who and where?

And will workers at Walmart decide not to unionize if they’re fully informed about their healthcare, wages, working conditions and retirement options? What kinda stupid do they think people are?

In which “informed choice” always means the lies truths they want you to hear.

Bastards.

Employees may not have heard the employer’s case that unionizing would make them worse off — by, for example, requiring them to pay dues for many years to come,

Now I feel better. Employers are just worried about their employees. That’s why they don’t want unions. They’re just showing their concern. Why didn’t they say that in the first place. All this time I thought WalMart didn’t want to pay a fair wage. Or provide decent healthcare insurance. But that’s not their concern at all. They just don’t want anyone burdened with paying Union dues.
And the head of Home Depot who said that anyone who votes Dem should be shot….now I get it. It was just his compassionate nature trying to protect all those hourly workers.

I think the EFCA is already supported by employees everywhere. I don’t think there’s any doubt where most people stand. The PR campaign using the logic above isn’t fooling anyone. Now, we just have to worry what all those campaign donations are doing to our legislators.

Another curious point in the Employee Free Choice Act, is the “assault on Democracy,” folks like Chinless McConnel rails about. Pointing to the physical act of checking a card in front of others completely undermines the Democratic Principle of the “secret ballot.”

Setting aside the fact that it does not eliminate the secret ballot for the moment, it is worth noting that a take-it-or-leave-it proposal issued from the overlords is dictatorial in nature, however collective bargaining and voting are democratic in nature.

Why do these people hate democracy?

Harry Reid better remove the need for cloture if that’s what it takes for his party to fulfill it’s purpose in respect to EFCA. And I would say the same for meaningful health care bills, but I doubt a good healthcare bill will ever see the light of day.

HA! Chinless McConnell. Turns out too that the RNC has few secret ballots.

Can Reid do that? I really don’t understand the whole 60 vote issue to pass a bill. When does majority rule, and when are 60 votes needed?

Anyone? Even Kagro X hasn’t been able to explicky this in language I understand.

i think it would have had to be done at the beginning of the 111th congress. at that point, as i understand kagro x’s old posts, it would have only taken a simple majority to change the rules – including the filibuster rule. otherwise it’s the nuclear option which i do not support – might as well flush the constitution down the toilet.

budget bills are a different story. would have to check my notes for that.

When the neocons refer to someone else making an “informed” choice, they mean choosing their choice. All else is heresy. Whatever delays any other choice is good, until it leads to choosing their way. Which rather buries the idea of choice and free will under Republican ideology and the miser’s money.

Budget bills don’t require a cloture vote; only 50 votes necessary to pass, iirc, since Biden breaks a tie.

(Unless Harry Reid can think of a way to require one, of course.)

This is why the Obama Team may want to do health care and global warming as part of the budget bill, per Orszag.

background from kagro x – the nuclear option and the filibuster explained in only 22 posts:

http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c…..he_nu.html

Just like Bristol Palin “chose life” for her baby.

It’s a way for the forced-birth proponents to steal the “choice” label, having already corrupted the debate with their horrid “pro-life” label for themselves.

Since the 70’s the average wage for workers has gone down even as CEO pay has gone up. Union membership has also gone down coincidence?

…and …and they want to lock employees inside their stores because they …want to keep everybody from getting rained on. So while they are in there, why just stand around? Why not do a few more chores to pass the time? See Walmart CARES about its 80 year old employees, single moms and heads of households who don’t make enough to pay their rent or feed the kids. They are providing shelter from the storm like the right wingnut Christians errr good Christians the Walton family members who are multi billionaires, truly are with the employess they cheat pay. They don’t want these poor people to go out there and get sick and have to use government services or anything, sheesh, don’t people get how much Walmart cares?

Geeez people don’t you SEE? We Walmart CEOs want to take care of our slaves employess like dysfunctional families families do, ’cause we really, really CARE!

(sounds of retching by “associates” are duly dubbed out) …

Cat In Seattle

ah, but don’t forget the points of order.

If the GOP says this will cost jobs we say 100% Tariffs on any company that outsources jobs and then tries to sell a product that used to be made in the United States back here.
In this economy we have the Clout to pass laws like this unemployment is only going to go up.
Let the GOP defend outsourcing I want them too!

I’m worried the big three will use bailout money to outsource jobs or to increase production at foreign plants.

And the head of Home Depot who said that anyone who votes Dem should be shot….now I get it. It was just his compassionate nature trying to protect all those hourly workers.

The old CEO or the new Bain Capitol appointed one cause then we can hang this on Mitt.

Setting aside the fact that it does not eliminate the secret ballot for the moment, it is worth noting that a take-it-or-leave-it proposal issued from the overlords is dictatorial in nature, however collective bargaining and voting are democratic in nature.

Why do these people hate democracy?

For all intents and purposes it does because it will be up to the union to or their supporters to ask for it (and you just know they won’t) but to your point about hating democracy – isn’t the right to vote in private a cornerstone of democracy?

It might be if as many as thirty percent of the potential voters/employees were not fired before election day.

It’s amazing how easily these people lie. They’re terrified of an informed public, no matter the issue. To them, we’re silly people “who do not get it”, and they know what’s best. How annoying.

To the author – the union and its supporters will decide whether there will be a secret ballot – do you really think they will allow one? Talk about propaganda bullshit.

Let’s call this what it is – the unions want to change the rules because they have trouble winning elections based on the merits. Smart employers have realized they need to treat their employees properly and those that do avoid unions and those that don’t… well they get unionized.

Don’t give me the line about intimidation, don’t quote some study by some left wing pro-union think tank. Both sides pressure, both sides coerce and to claim otherwise is naive or dishonest. The solution is to allow employees to decide in private in the ballot booth.

It is amazing to hear liberal/progressives advocating the elimination of a secret ballot.

It might be if as many as thirty percent of the potential voters/employees were not fired before election day.

Thirty Percent???? In a word bullshit. I’ve been through three union drives and no one lost their job.

Thank you so much, selise. I guess the only hope is to get 70 dems in the Senate. Geez.

I think the best tack is for every family opposing abortion to adopt a child.

With your views.. i wonder if you would notice.

Eh…ignore.

I think the best tack is for every family opposing abortion to adopt a child.

Agree wholeheartedly.

Well it’s obvious you were spouting bullshit… but to your question, my workplace has been voted by its employees as one the best places to work in the state for three consecutive years. Terminating an employee is a serious situation and no one should ever lost their job for advocating unionization.

Eh…ignore.

Oh I see… if someone has an opposing view or isn’t drinking the kool-aid just ignore them. Impressive.

Like in a Caucus for example? The EFCA does not eliminate private ballots, a complete bullshit canard. What is not bullshit is Republicans wanting to maintain a Dictatorship by allowing company owners to dictate wages and benefits and completely opposing the Democratic idea of collective bargaining through unionization.

The other route on ‘fully informed choice’ is to make sure you have too much information, so you can’t tell what’s good and what’s bad. Like trying to figure out the information for choosing health insurance ….

‘elimination of a secret ballot’?
You’re watching too much GOP/business propaganda.
It doesn’t do that. Everyone who has read the bill knows that, and has said so, and yet the news guys still haven’t gotten it straight.

I’m sure all these low paid, low or no benefit workers, who never heard of vacation, or usually have to work through it just to survive… are against unions for the good of the company. They just need more corporate information. /s

And I am sure flat or falling workers wages while productivity jumps over the last thirty years as unions decline is not a coincidence at all.

The Employee Free Choice Act restores the option of using a secret ballot or using card check for employees that are considering a union. Period.

Good Morning:

I don’t know if anyone hear watched Rachel Maddow this past Friday evening,but in the tradition of Friday newsdumps,the WSJ,who has beating the tom-toms for it’s corporate masters -FALSELY decrying that EFCA removed the secret ballot(not tru)-did a 180 degree about face,on its editorial page,npo less.

This is HUGE,imho, bcause that has been the mantra of the anti-unionista led be CoC and Rick Berman.

I’m curious to hear their spin on that 180,for sure!

The secret ballot wasn’t the rule in the US until the end of the 19th century, and its introduction was hotly debated. Therefore, the claim that it’s fundamental to American democracy is suspect. I don’t see how a union organizing commitee could conduct a card-check drive without the employer knowing about it (unless they’re really, really out of it) — they’ll have plenty of time to talk to workers about the topic before the organizers gather enough cards.

Here is a link for the most intensive info on EFCA that I have come across. Literally,encyclopedic info,continuously updated.

One of the most interesting aspects is the section entitled anti-union network.This is worth a click to the site’s link, alone. WOW! Did I learn a lot about the collusion of Big Business and the likes of union buster Richard Berman.

For anyone,of any political persuasion, this ARAW site is the real deal.

American Rights at Work – Home American Rights at Work is a nonprofit advocacy organization whose mission is to support workers’ rights to a free choice and a fair chance to join a union.
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American Rights at Work – Employee Free Choice Act American Rights at Work is a nonprofit advocacy organization whose mission is to support workers’ rights to a free choice and a fair chance to join a union. …
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American Rights at Work – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Dec 5, 2008 … American Rights at Work (ARAW) is a U.S. self-described nonpartisan, nonprofit organization that advocates for workers and their right to …
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